 Hi, my name is Sandy Barrett and I'm here with the Cuban American Friendship Society to report on our recent trip to Cuba where we were from for about a week taking some Teachers to Cuba to look at their educational system to compare our educational system with theirs and also just to visit the Island and the people there. I As I said, my name is Sandy Barrett and I've been going to Cuba since 1981 when and then in the 90s I established a group called the Cuban American Friendship Friendship Society because I wanted to extend friendship to the Cuban people Since 1959 until the present our government has not been such a friend to Cuba and in fact has been seeing Cuba and its people as adversaries have made life very difficult for the Cuban people in terms of trade and credit and In fact the Cubans say that there is a blockade Against the Cuban people and against the island by the United States So in my heart of hearts I want to extend friendship to the people of Cuba who have always been warm Hospital and great friends of us here in the United States So I have other people with me who were on that trip. I'm the president of the Cuban American Friendship Society Armando Villaseca who is also our secretary of education in Montpelier for a number of years and Also Al our teacher buddy who came with us to Cuba first first time right and Eric Agnero who also was with us and we are going to talk about our impressions of what's going on in Cuba today Okay, so take it away. I guess Armando. What did what did you think? Okay What we saw over there the rebellious island So rebellious We have it. It's always so thrilling when they say welcome to Havana In an American book or American news story, I'm hearing the American perspective on the Cuban story But if I come to Cuba I begin to understand The Cuban story From their perspective The the question was whose story do you not hear? Well, I don't hear the Cuban story unless I come Voila, okay, so I Begin the conversation with talking to Armando Villaseca who also was born in Cuba came here When he was a very young boy and then has gone back over the years and have also seen Cuba After of course after he left he did well It's one of those Cubans who went back with an open mind, right? So, uh, what what were your findings Armando? Well, I mean sandy I've been going back to Cuba now Both with CAFs and prior CAFs since 1999 Right at the end of the special period and for those who don't know the special period was the 10 years following the fall Of the soviet empire where Cuba lost a lot of their income but Just talking were you there during the special period just a night in at the very end Yeah, and I think that was no longer. Maybe the special period anymore Uh, but you know with CAFs, we've been bringing groups to Cuba for the past 15 years We just have another group going in in a couple of weeks plus the group that just went We work with Vermont law school We work with many organizations and have seen Cuba evolve And the best years to cut it short were the obama years When president obama was opening up the number one tourism increased trade Educational activities Exchanges there was a lot more exchange going on the cuban saw that as the beginning of the future They they love obama if anybody obviously obama spoke to the people of Cuba live on tv Uncensored which is unheard of And and he was again he was the hope and then unfortunately we had president Trump who came in and changed everything and made things considerably worse for the cubans Including his final act which was placing cuba on the terrorist watch state sponsored service watch list Which denies cuba all kinds of opportunities for financial investments for trade with other countries And right now cuba is Is a mess People are food is in shortages Inflation is really high. It doesn't impact us. You just saw that pretty video with girls dancing and all this other stuff But if you're a cuban and you're making three to four thousand pesos a month, which is the average salary And a 30 eggs cost you 1,600 pesos. That's a third of your salary just for eggs So for us as americans, which is very helpful to cuba when we go because we're supporting the economy Alan and his uh, the teachers stayed at Private homes. We only eat at private restaurants. We we take private cabs whenever possible So we try to do everything where the money goes directly to the people and not to the government Obviously, there are times you can't you know, you can't you gotta you can't avoid it But that's our goal and as an organization our goal is one of bring friendship Support trying to change people's hope Trying to change people's minds here Senator lehi was an incredible supporter of cuba right the senator welts is also a huge supporter of cuba I'm sure new representative ballant will also become a big supporter of cuba better talk to her We don't know we have to talk to her and senator sanders, of course Is also a supporter of changing the policy we have towards cuba And and that's really where I see it where things right now have gotten worse over the years But there's hope as the cuban government And the u.s. Government have more Discussions that are on the way to allow for more normalization of our of our two countries Mm-hmm Well, I want to ask you what you thought too, but before I just want to mention a few things of why the united states has been harsh on cuba at least in my opinion Maybe we would have some discussion about that But in 1959 fidel castro came into havana and made and changed cuba During what the cubans call and what historians will call this a cuban revolution and established a socialist government in cuba A government with hopes that it would eventually be also a communist government And the united states Because of its attitudes toward all of latin america, but particularly toward cuba which became and not Not uh with treaties an ally of soya union, but cuba played into the cold war Of course by becoming very friendly with the soya union And so the united states since that point has said we will try essentially For regime change in cuba that we really don't want a socialist or a communist government 90 miles from florida So since that time the united states has established first at embargo And and what the cubans call a blockade against cuban government Many americans also probably would not agree with the cuban government either However, this blockade has acted harshly And with a great deal of cruelty toward the cuban people the very people that we would try to be We should be in my mind trying to help because they're neighbors and friends So that I think is the reason unless other people have other No, i'm just waiting i want to hear from him Anyway, so al how did you find cuba? This is your first visit right first visit You're a teacher where i'm a special educator at the burlington high school. Okay, and um, I've been privileged to travel quite a bit all around the world and cuba was one of those places that I Never really thought i'd get to and when the opportunity presented itself Through the burlington school district I jumped in the chance to to head on down and I read up on cuba. I I learned as much as I could you know the history is um Sad and fascinating. I mean it's really been kind of bandied about with the colonial powers and Everything and I and unfortunately a lot of that hasn't really changed I got down there and I my mind was blown honestly. I wasn't Uh, I wasn't sure what to quite expect And it was impressive and sad and amazing and awful all kind of rolled up into one it was You visited school processing at all. I don't really why I I just I it's just so different. Uh, you know, there's not a ton of stores on every street No stores. Yeah, it's the first time I've gone to a country and not had a chance to check out what The inside of a of a grocery store looks like So it was very different from past travel experiences Um Going to all of the different schools and we had the opportunity to visit elementary schools middle schools High school And other things as well, but in all of them I had Kind of in my head certain expectations and uh, like I just I thought that I would be seeing a ton of kids crammed into classrooms, which was kind of the case Yeah, but the behaviors of the students were Incredible I can honestly say is as an educator who's taught for almost 20 years in the american system You're kind of used to some of that more individualistic kind of take on school and sometimes you get some behaviors that really flare up I didn't see any of that there and and to that point. I actually asked our guide at one point Is this just kind of a show because the american teachers are here and she said no This is a cultural expectation. You go to school to learn you You know don't act up in class. You respect the teachers and I thought This is where We as americans could learn from our cuban counterpoints counterpart. Sorry Um, so it was overall a fantastic trip. I would make the the journey back to cuba Because I really just got a taste of it. Mm-hmm. So So what did but you said there were some awful parts too, right? Well, certainly you see a lot of you see some folks on the streets and you have to wonder where they're getting help Our guide told me at one point I became pretty close with her that she makes about 4 000 cuban pesos a month, which you mentioned but to our audience out there That's about 24 us a month So You hear those kinds of statistics and you're like, how the heck do you live? You know I think when we left toilet paper was like three About three dollars us per roll And you just have to wonder how do these people Put food on the table and and have the other basic amenities that you need Um toilet paper was sold on the black market or is being sold in the black market So that that was one of maybe the but I will say that overall like the spirit of the people is what would draw me back to cuba We we really met a lot of amazing folks They were curious about the americans that were visiting They were super sweet super nice. So They really like us to be there. Don't they they do. Yeah, I think and I mean, you know It takes a bit of an effort and they know it it does And let's not mince words, you know, they they're there to like they probably like seeing our tourist dollars to some degree as well Of course, I thought that they were very authentically engaging and very nice And I love the Palo deris, is that the palo deris the private restaurants little private restaurants were were wonderful They look like regular restaurants, but they run all yeah, they're totally family family So that was great. Yeah, so that was and that was another like experience Like a lot of these little private smaller like family Kind of like almost like in a family's home. Yeah. Yeah meeting Us american, you know teachers and other folks was pretty interesting. So and very different again from Did you did you think of it as a A poor country with a lot of poverty or what was that maybe you could comment on that Eric as well, but let's hear from Mel Again, I didn't I only got to see like Some sections of hirvana. I didn't get a chance to go out and really better parts I didn't get to see yeah other parts in central They I mean they went through central but central is not bad compared to the outer Yeah, yeah, yeah, we stayed in the nice area. We stayed kind of on embassy row So I don't think I'm really probably the one to maybe speak to that I do think we did see poverty. We saw you know folks that were out like asking for money But we never really we weren't able to venture too far outside of Havana either so I don't have any kind of a I don't know what it looks like in the rural parts or the even of the other cities. So But I would say poverty seems like it's pretty pretty prevalent The thing with poverty in Cuba is that everybody's poor So that's one of the that's one and that and when I say poor, I don't mean poor as in that They're starving because really most people aren't starving in Cuba. Even now, you know, even now What we have seen for the first time ever was street people. I've never seen street people before I mean living on the street living on the street sleeping on the street. I'd never seen them before because the communist government always Would institutionalize them or put them someplace, but that you know the government itself You really you saw that yeah, yeah, I mean now you see it I saw more than ever before But the thing with cuba is for example, there's they still have a ration coupon book So every cuban gets, you know, like two pounds of rice a pound of sugar per month A little bit a certain amount of meat which is Only supplements the you know their ability for for food And even that isn't enough and that right now if you can believe it Cuba Which was a sugar producing country one of the top in the world is now importing sugar from France Because the sugar the sugar Production has dropped dramatically because they closed It's a whole long story. But basically it's what it is It's incompetent communist government that causes all of this on top of the fact that they have an embargo that's killing them So they have the cubans will say we have the external blockade Which is the us and then we have the internal blockade which is the government Which is very centralized and tries not to Allow so decisions are made up here that have no relation to what's actually happened on the ground. So a lot of times bad decisions are made So, you know, there's a there's enough blame to go around and a lot of blame lies with cuban americans in this country Why because they have a lot of power and are able to influence politicians in washington To continue to vote against anything with cuba Why is it that we still have a system in place for over 60 years? That's obviously a failed system You know one little country That has you know, no authority to to you know to hurt anyone No ability to hurt anybody else So not a terrorist country not a terrorist country and we're you know If it was a true embargo like what we did with apartheid in south africa every country in the world This is not this is only cuba and the only two countries that vote to continue to Keep this at the u.m. Is the u.s. And israel interesting enough israel votes with that way But they trade heavily with cuba and actually I just saw some israeli Visitors when I was there last time So we're the only country that is punishing this poor little country because people like senator menendez from new jersey Who's a cuban democrat but goes along with marco rubio? Right when republican on only one thing keeping the embargo on cuba And and initially was get rid of casserole. Well, casserole died then get rid of his brother Well, his brother left now they want left. He's still alive though. Yeah, he's still alive But he's theoretically you know, I know he he accepted term limits But he still runs things he's still and that's the other problem the cuba has You know all these 85 plus year old men Who are still really living the revolution of 1959? Is that true of the current president kanal dias? You think was he one of the part of the world? He's young but I think but the the people in charge these You know these politicians who are former military who are now in their 80s and they're still looking at the world through the lens of 1960 Not 20, you know, what which is why cuba said why? 2 of the population has left in the past year Q and you know, thank god That now we're doing something to try to help it by allowing 20 000 cubans to come every month through a parole system That the president has has initiated and it's not just for cuba. Sandy, you know, it's with venezuela Nicaragua haiti and cuba, right? We have a gram gram. Are you with us? Hello, gram Could you he's a mute yourself? Oh, he's in the bottom. Is the bar. No, he's at the bottom. I think Can we hear him? Yes, hi Oh, yeah, okay Hey, did you want to say something go ahead? Yeah, my observation following the world baseball classic, but every So I went down in last month And about every couple days, I'll just sort of went into google like cuba news And the latest cuba news was all about the baseball game, but it wasn't about cuba. It was about the so Freedom of the press well in the other states all the press is free to report the same story That the state department would kind of have you enjoy And in cuba, it's you know freedom of the press doesn't really exist at all Oh, we lost him we lost him lost him. Yeah, we lost him Talking about freedom of the press. Yeah, I I I'm quite surprised I mean, I wasn't surprised because you know The revolution wouldn't last that long if there was freedom of speech But concerning cuba, it's always important to talk about cuba vis-à-vis The position of the u.s. And the extreme Violence with which you know the u.s. And you know, it's allies that are Complying with this blockade, you know force cuba to be in that position I really wanted to see if cuba would be like this if there wasn't that embargo and then I will turn to uh To armando to To try to answer this question. Is it only about, you know, the embargo is or you know, they are, you know Uh Causes that are intersect to uh, well, I mean, I think that Part of the issue is that the cubans in miami who are the ones demonstrating before the miami And before the cuba u.s. Game Are the people who are, you know, many of those were in power probably not them but people in power like them So when you look at the miami cubans, I'm going to use them use them as sort of a generality They want to repress You know, they want to repress cuba. They want to repress speech because they want only their position So they're just as bad as the count as the government on the island, you know Who represses the the rights of people as they've jailed many many artists in the past year But I mean, I don't know what the answer is But the the the goal that everybody had when batista was overthrown by casseroe including my family and others who were supportive Was that it would eventually become a democracy of some sort whatever democracy means It never they never thought that it would turn into a not, you know, again Dictatorship is what it was a communist dictatorship That never had a chance to become what everybody was expecting They did a lot of good things around education health care But at what cost and was as a result of the us embargo or the us position maybe was a part of it of the greed and the The selfishness of people in power to maintain control and constraint. There's probably a combination of those things But you know cuba is where it is today By its own doing as well as by the us You know, there's a common enough to go around we have different positions I grew up in a cuban community that even what i'm talking about right now would not be allowed Would not be allowed. I would be considered a communist, you know, and what I am as a realist is that you know, there's enough blame to go around um I am too and I what I have always been well, I'm surprised um Recently that there have been so many protests in cuba um, and I believe it is because the Revolutionary government of the castros is gone and there's now another new president who probably has not the charisma nor the Um attractiveness that the castros had in the first place But also I thought that the situation at least economically seemed really much worse And that I certainly have always Thought people have the right to protest and so I support those protests I also that that's I think you're absolutely right and that blame is on the us I think that the fact that the economy is as bad as it is Yes, right and but not only Is it it also is something the us seems to want they want to starve these people to the cuban people That's what I don't understand. No, it seems now. Look at I don't support The cuba. It's not my government. So i'm not cruelty that it is it is to me. It's a crime against humanity I don't see any Reason that that helps anybody. It's not going to overthrow that government Never and with speaking with lorraine from you know our guide down there She said that protesting comes at a real cost if you are caught. Yes. It's like an automatic like 10 years So, you know these things that we take for granted here, maybe in the u.s. Well, I wonder now Yeah, but you're right. You're right, you know people people can get and particularly young people some of the and again right now the vatican actually the us and A couple of other countries have really been appealing to The government no, yeah the us to let to release the the The j-16, you know the kids that were arrested and given like 10 year terms of prison for 19 20 year olds for demonstrating these are on the arts Um Demonstration where the government has now passed laws that everything Things have to be approved by then art has to be approved by the government before it can be and now it was relatively It always has been censored, but not like this. Yeah, you know, um, and so Anyway, I believe in everybody's right to protest against their own government But I don't love the support either that the u.s. Gives to those to many of those protests as well um, and I just I just wish cuba well and I I My government is what I'm targeting is my government They have to lift these terrible things and it's not only against cuba Although I think the sanctions against cuba and the bargain bargain blockade are the longest Against cuba of anywhere in this island and that's 90 miles away in hopes that there would be regime change And of course that's not going to happen. That's not going to happen. I don't think but anyway But like if I can go back to the educational side of things like you see the resilience of like the cuban people Um with just how successful they've been with their education I can remember some of the statistics when we went and visited schools where The after they're the first year after fidel took power Something like 25 of the the people in cuba were illiterate higher higher than 25 26% anyway And then after a year because fidel said no, we're we're going to have these folks educated They are going to learn how to read and a year later you have a population that is under Was it under 1%? Yeah, I think that eventually got that way but now you're talking about the literacy. Yeah, that's right Right successful. Yeah, and uh, I thought that was pretty amazing I always thought when I was first in cuba, there were signs all over the place that said six Meaning they wanted to get to sixth grade level two years later. I went back was nine Ninth grade and now it's close to 100% literacy, isn't it? And I've always thought that that was one thing when you teach people how to read and write that They're not going to be slaves anymore. Yeah, you know But anyway, so but the education is one of those areas that cuba is very successful Yeah, and again the and the Again the problem is you have this educated population that sees no future Right, and that's that and that's the piece that the government quite hasn't figured out And and part of it they can't figure out because they have an embargo that doesn't allow them to do certain things At the same time trying to maintain control is also their Sort of Achilles heel on the on the island about how you know Why does why doesn't it just allow the people like what they what they try to do is to have a The a chinese or vietnamese economic model with a with With the current government so you can have a communist government a single party, but you could still have the Economy that's going to be humming along Cuba has chosen and they've been Recommended to do that by china and vietnam and others But they've chosen not to do they still want to maintain that centralized in order for that to happen You have to let go and let people go off. You think that they Then don't have any private enterprise They have private enterprise some small right small they have now small medium and large, but they're but they're really they're very limited in what they can do Limited to the employees they can hire to limited to the number of employees they can hire limited to You know if you want if you want to have a farm I still have to sell you like at the government at the government price even though it might cost me more So people stop selling it or stop growing things So again the issue is let the economy sort of grow as a natural economy of people Making things selling things on their own not being forced to give 75 percent of their crops to the government But again, that's all part of a growing process for for the Cuban government Because they've been you know under under a system that has been very very centralized And these are growing pains and instead of us being there to help them with these growing pains We keep kicking sand in their face. So what's really is you know It's a tragedy Yeah, it is so you ask you asked about freedom of the press, right? Like coming from Africa, I look at Cuba differently than you know people from the u.s. Because you know My country for example, the Ivory Coast Côte d'Ivoire is the best, you know students from the IMF the World Bank We have like all the buildings and fancy things But 40 of the population doesn't know how to read and write People still live with like one or two dollars per day, but they can work in huge, you know, uh, french-owned Supermarkets american-owned businesses Nothing belongs to them But you know, they have the best numbers when it comes to you know Economics, you know according to the IMF the international monetary fund or you know, and no Real politically political freedom Most of the countries in west africa that are under the influence of france have they the the leaders chosen by paris You know at some point you ask yourself, okay What do I sacrifice for just to have some toilet paper? Or you know or not I I am still hopeful that you know as the u.s. Influence is diminishing across the the planet that other powers are emerging. Maybe there will be less Burden on cuba coming from from from from washington So we can see at least what the model of cuba can produce because it's like In symphony in a chevet like we say in french Uh a symphony that is not, you know achieved is not Did not go to the end So I really would like to see cuba free of that Major major blockade and see how it will it it it will it will go but uh I also would like to see the cuban government Put some water in their wine as as we say to because you can't leave Isolated you live in a world with like the villains with you know those who are against you and you try to maneuver So it's it's difficult if you go for example with china china has the means to do what they they do China is a communist country Well, yeah, they do business But because the u.s. Cannot go there and dictate whatever they want China is successful, but imagine if china was crippled by the west Can't pay it's too big. It's too big right cuba is small and cuba is like facing You know, you know a huge amount of hostility from from from from washington from other other, you know, european countries, so They did what they could with what they had it's not perfect because even here, you know I heard that, you know, the literacy rate is going down here. Yeah, you know people in the mightiest country My daughter has to pay 60 thousand 65 thousand dollars for a semester or a year to go to college while, you know Anybody in cuba can go to college as soon as you're done with high school. You have a place that is waiting for you in college It's also The opportunity to ask what makes you happy Yeah, we saw people. I mean it's tough. It's very very tough over there, but we we still see people that are trying to Yes That's the spirit part that I was talking about. It's like these people have nothing compared to us But uh Yeah, this this was at the uh at the ludwig foundation, but you know, let's let's go back to our So what's next for cuba? I'm worried about cuba for the first time Anyway, how about what do you think? The reason i'm worried is that I see um I've been there since 1981 and this was the first time Second time last may also that I saw real hardship Even in 81 when the soviets were there with all the problems probably the soviets brought to cuba There was always enough to eat. There was always Good schools good health care system and so forth This time I I heard also talk of real hunger didn't you? I mean Lorraine our guide said that she didn't frankly get enough to eat and she even has access to to money Yeah That is worrisome to me And I'm not certain that the government has the Loyalty that the castros had And there is it was a lot of criticism of the government. There was a lot of criticism Also that crime was increasing Did you you heard that and that's unheard of in cuba that was simply unheard of when I was been there before so I I'm But the world is in crisis And there's one in here in the u.s. No kidding. I mean I mean there are people who can't eat here I know and there you know what else we have here that is probably not as true in cuba We have a whole massive incarceration rate too of people in prison We have a lot of I'm not certain the united states is going to survive this much to europe I was in europe recently europe is like A mess I mean it's not working. You know, there's a there's an international crisis. So small feathers like You know light feathers like cuba will will fill it But europe is filling that crisis as well but europe has like Centuries of exploitation of the third world. I know I agree cash and reserves of gold that were taken from you know You know so so they can they can they have it. I mean less You know difficult than you know the the countries if you go to to africa, you know, you see all these big investments from International companies and corporates nothing belongs to the people over there So what is it you give everything all your resources the konglees are dying they're sitting on you know gold manganese all these resources And they're dying every day 700,000 people died in iraq Just because we we we we we we we wanted to you know, uh, you know, uh toppled down saddam is saying It's not a world that is fair It's not fair for cuba as well No, but But the fact is that cuba is part of that developing world that has been crushed by colonial powers Especially by its colonial imperial power by the united states That's that's interesting because With everything we're saying about the demise of cuba or not and the demise of the united states as not as the united states loses power Perhaps the colonial world And will rise who knows, you know I but i don't like the idea necessarily of the demise of my own country either You know I think i'm gonna give a little credit to the cuban people. Yeah, right exactly. I've read about them like These are people that have been pushed around, uh, since columbus first got there and you know, they're still They're still here today. They've been pushed around. They've been Um, you know punched in the gut so to speak by many different european powers And yet they're still here They have a lot of tough things ahead of them right now Yeah, but they've weathered this stuff before as as a people I would be more concerned about like the united states or something where they really haven't had to weather Something that's lasted for say something as long as like an embargo. That's an it's 60 second year or whatever And yet the the cuban people push on. I mean they somehow get through it. Well I'm not saying I am not diminishing what they are going through and certainly we met a lot of people that are going through a tough time there but They the ones I met at least we're doing it with a smile on their face and they were getting I mean Yeah, I don't know. I smile a lot more than we do. I just felt like I saw a lot of happy people that I mean I mean compared to their u.s counterparts Seemed a lot happier and you know and we have a lot more than the cuban people so to speak So I I'm not sure why that is but again I think it's maybe it's just built into that history where they've been Pushed around and they've just developed this resilience uh and reliance upon themselves to get through it This is what's the most worrisome to me is that every A lot of people want to leave A lot and that as young people people with skills Sure, um, and they are because of the cold war mentality in the united states the cubans are also Welcome here Sandy, you know what? What could be why is the best student from the eye with me? You know what everybody wants to leave? Of course, I know they all every right most of the kids that are dying You know in the oceans trying to reach the european shores are from ivory coast Ivory code diva code diva is the locomotive of the economy in west africa yet The people don't get the proceeds from you know You know what the the the the the country sells cacao Codiva is number one producer of cacao But how many ivorian can you know have the luxury to eat some chocolate in their life So the whole the whole system has to come to I mean we we need to find a middle ground not the extreme of maybe Socialist revolution that will anyway face the resistance of either the people themselves or you know, you know the countries that abhor Socialism look even you know the senator from from bemont as soon as he says he's a socialist You know people want to put him in jail. I don't know So so we have to find a middle ground because people don't know the difference between socialism communism, you know No, but bernie got really hammered because he was he says something decent about cuba specifically, didn't he? Yeah, I can't even remember what it was all the way to moscow Right, he went to moscow on his honeymoon. Do you think that lehi went to cuba? Not knowing that maybe the system is a little bit extreme, but lehi learned a lot from cuba and brought it here So maybe we can meet halfway he didn't get punished about it either lehi never was because because he lives in vermont who was a florida He was in florida. He wouldn't have been senator. I mean that's the difference It's easy when we live in vermont to be able to be liberal and to say these things If you were saying he was not running for president and he wasn't running for president But also he was he wasn't running for senator in florida or in new jersey But again, I think that you know senator lehi did a lot of things he helped, you know with allen gross He was the one that helped get allen gross. He was a prisoner. I'm not going to get into it Held by the cubans and they were exchanged for the cuba five And he was he was very much involved with us. He's very much lehi's been very much a player in this So when he left besides vermont losing all kinds of influence in washington It was a big influence in with cuba And you know what happens with cuba is up to the cubans really because everything that happened you talk about all these countries Yes, the europeans, you know went to cuba But there were cubans themselves who who Who you know worked with all the foreigners and still do you know in 1959 batista, you know by that point He was working with the americans. So the wealthy are still working with with With these corporations except the castros didn't except castros didn't because he kicked them all out Yeah, right and and again was the right thing to do I obviously think it was the wrong thing to do it could have he could have come up with a way That didn't require nationalizing everybody's property. I don't care where you are if you're in the u.s They nationalize my property. You kidding me. You're gonna take my house. You're gonna take my property No, of course people reacted badly to it. He was a young he was dissed by the americans He was dissed by kennedy. He was dissed by eisenhower when he came to the u.s You know he ended up having to stay in harlem because the hotel in manhattan But that made him a hero made him a hero. I remember that All I'm saying is that he was dissed you could see where you're a young revolutionary and you think that you know You're hot shit and that you're gonna, you know, all of a sudden these people dissing you you're gonna go back Then the russians are offering you financial support You know, well, did they I mean they traded a lot with cuba. Oh my god. They supported cuba. Yeah, right You know, that's why the special period Right. It wasn't just russia. It was the whole eastern bloc. Yeah. Yeah, yeah It was all of the you know, eastern europeans as well But the other but the european powers have never had an embargo against cuba. It's only the united states, right? The united state Doesn't allow the european to do freely business with cuba, right? Because it's a because it's a blockade It's not just an embargo. It extends to third countries. So it makes it into a blockade, right? But it's also True that the united states has always had a special interest in controlling lat all of latin america I mean right now for instance our relationships With venezuela are really broken because we perceive the leader of venezuela to be a socialist also, right? Yeah, but that goes back to xava's day. I know I know I know well now not as far back as cuba Not as go back not as far back as cuba because because again venezuela's government was a corrupt Mess before that, you know, not that xavas did anything bad or good. He was something different He gave money to the people He spent a lot of the oil revenues to give money to the people not in a smart way There wasn't investments in the for the for them people to make money in the future So he was very popular, you know, uh, the guy now is doesn't have the charisma Right madoro. Yeah, doesn't have the charisma and you know, we did the same thing to haydee to the united states When it when it had its revolution in 1804 was the same kind of embargo and blockade of haydee because it had overthrown A white french government in favor of a black Government and the french charge the french charge them a debt on the slaves bodies Same thing for the 14 or 15 countries that have Have to use a currency that is like like it's like we call it I mean monkey's money You know controlled by the bank of france france, you know, when france was obliged Because everybody in the world was liberating the peoples and the countries that were under, you know, colonization france has to give A pseudo independence to these countries, but with strings attached Like our countries signed like documents that are, you know, you know, that give France preference on the resources france has to say, okay, i'm not interested for another country to come 60 percent of our, you know The hard currency the foreign currency that we get dollars euros We are we are obliged to put that in the bank of france for france to give us that phony money That we can only use among ourselves. So I mean yet, you know, ivorians have nice bridges. They have supermarkets that, you know, brings like things that, you know Are forbidden in europe to the every coast so How much how much do you give to the superpowers to have a toilet paper? right But again, you know, when we bring this back to cuba, it's a you know, it's again There's enough blame to go around But ultimately the government itself internal government how they manage the embargo. Okay, you got an embargo That's life How do you manage it with internally? Is the issue that I think has to be addressed, you know, we can take away the embargo of the internal operations don't change Things aren't going to get that much better I think what eric was asking is a question. I don't ask don't you do you think I and you're this is totally speculation I would guess if the embargo were lifted that the cuban government would have to change In a way the cuban government would change because it would no longer You would no longer be able to say it's it's washington and it's not prevalent anymore But up up until probably about 10 years ago if you drove around the city around the countryside you'd see billboards Huge billboards blaming the u.s. It would be bush You know holding a gun to cuba would be I mean really wasn't obama No, it wasn't obama and then it was during obama. They started taking all those down So, you know, we're if you take it as the cuban say if you take away the embargo The government's going to change because they can no longer blame the u.s. And you know, and then there would be enough wealth If the model stays there we know that worried about Somebody taking full advantage of the cuban people at that point too. I would be worried about I mean I I could a lot like so I was thinking about this when I was down there We saw a lot of beautiful older cars And at one point somebody said that those cars I wrote around for half a day in a 1957 ford fair lane Beautiful car. I had so fun. Yeah, right and all I could think of was wish I had one now to open up what's to prevent uh America I actually buying cars I said I said what's what's to stop j lino I brought him up because he's kind of a famous like carbiscianato From going down there with a huge boat And saying i'm going to help the cuban people out and instead of paying a thousand dollars for one of these beautiful old restored cars I'll give them two thousand. Yeah, but so what that's what they'll ask for 20 because they're expensive But even i'm just saying like he just like he gets to go down there and and and just Fleece all these beautiful cars for next to nothing or the properties or some of the old some of the old houses Beautiful old houses. So that's their business Well, like I think so, but i'm just worried that like well, of course full advantage I wouldn't want cuba also to have a bunch of even though I like mcdonald's kind of I don't want cuba to have a bunch of mcdonald's or starbucks Russians have they all you know, I know let the people do Yeah, let's see and then we'll see that government we can judge what the government has to do is I mean, I think that what alan you're talking about is something that I fear is that maybe it's not cars But it's corporations coming in and you know, that's going to happen people buying real estate at prices Right and the cuban would be the first to rebel and then to you know to be unhappy about you know big corporates coming They would so it they haven't rebelled now. I see it around the you know, the war What can they do When the things are worse things are bad I think that I think that the government itself has to have You know how my ownership has to be 51 cuban ownership. It has I mean there has to be sure That's what they do when I was in the middle east same thing But whatever it is it can't be a free-for-all just because I have the money I can buy everything There has to be some limits as to what you can buy how much you can buy Can you imagine if somebody was able to go in unfettered and buy up all the real estate next to the mallicon? Oh, yeah, you'd have another Miami and people would sell you have these gigantic resorts blocking out the view of all the cuban people Maybe that's the idea of wealth, right? Because you know to me The way some countries in the world are Tragically wealthy is because they're making other people poor. Yes. There's no such thing like exponential Growth it doesn't exist people like amazon are make like it's interesting. We like to celebrate, you know wealth But we don't want to look at what creates wealth That that that kind of wealth, you know, I mean it has to be balanced, you know Free market you cannot put light feathers and heavy, you know weight in the same basket They won't be able to compete. That's what they're asking the people from the third world to do You know you come with Like this huge corporation who comes give shitty jobs to the local population just because they give a couple of jobs here and there They don't pay any taxes five years later They move the you know operation to another country to avoid paying five years of taxes And but if you don't do that you are pariah You are socialist you are communist and then the brown and black people all over the world Don't have the right to look for sovereignty to look for dignity if they do so they're communists They have to they have to bump the butt up well Well cuba did that I guess in 1959 right or tried to right Yeah, but I'm I don't know. I don't know. Okay. So let's talk about the future for cuba. What do you think hermano? I mean, I think the future for cuba is pretty it's not very positive. I mean unless again Forgetting about the embargo not the embargo has to change But also the internal politics have to change You know one person can't be making decisions all the way down the line. There has to be more freedom for people to operate whether it's politically Business wise And again, most of the people coming into the u.s right now are not political refugees. They're economic refugees Yeah, yeah, yeah, so fix the economy then then work on the other stuff But again, I think that you know look at the investments the roads are a mess in the whole island Having driven across the island several times. It's a mess infrastructure. How is it kind of worse, isn't it? Well, depends. I mean I drove to New jersey Yeah, but then I drove in New Jersey and it's no it's way better than cuba. No, no, no, I agree with you But new jersey and cuba is like light feathers and you know, hey, I mean, I mean, I you know across the nation There's there's people have hardship, you know, it's yeah, but But cuba's a small island. Can it survive is my point. Yeah That's got no choice to survive. I don't know that question is it's gonna survive. I mean, what are you gonna do? It's gonna survive. Well, you know, well, there are countries that aren't surviving like Haiti, right? Right, there's Katie me now. He Q is not going to do be that. Are you are you with us? Oh, yes. All right. So you'll take on the the future of cuba That's not the question he wanted. He's in Puerto Rico. I think he wanted something a little lighter No, no, so, uh I was talking to a guy about how bizarre it was that people Seemed happy which didn't mean they were content or right? And good point. Yeah, well When you have hope and it doesn't come through you get angry and we see that in our country all the younger That's true. Um, you know doesn't seem to be a lot of hope and and so people I don't know that was an interesting way of Of looking at it. Um Do they not I mean all we saw was Havana Yeah, if if you go to the old north end, you're not seeing Vermont. So we're really talking about A period of time a short period of time in a small section of a big city, but um No, my my thing was Around the baseball, I couldn't believe all the u.s coverage was the same and To me it was a story of you know, national Cuban team Plays in the united states plays in miami plays in little hud banner. Wow And a couple a hundred people show up to protest, which is For burlington, it would be like if three or four people showed up to protest Maybe that's high. Maybe it'd be Uh one person And it that's not its news story in burlington, but Oh, there's a couple of does one place that a couple of dozen protesters slamming the baseball players because they're communist, you know players And the story wasn't Thousands of people are are rooting for the Cuban team inside the stadium You know, where's it was that true? Was that accurate? Yeah, oh great. Yeah, there were people people rooting for it against them, you know And the majority of people were cheering for the u.s baseball team But when you're cheering for the Cuban team, you're recognizing the Cuban government because they are You know, they were And they know and the other group was saying we hate the baseball players because They're supporting the communists so but they they were a couple dozen people but that became The whole story See, I I mean that I was reading the Miami Herald That was a story in the Miami Herald But then the other like the new york times and stuff didn't have it. Did it graham? I didn't see much about the I didn't see anything about it I wanted to Seven stories that I read there were seven stories that I read But he is in Puerto Rico and a Shitty bullpen catcher who you know a bullpen catcher wears a uniform. They're not a player They don't go into the game. They're a bullpen catcher They're a they're a step above a ball girl or a ball boy And they're what me below But a bullpen catcher defected so that became a big story You know Cuban player defects bigger story in Puerto Rico in Miami than the rest of the country though Yeah, probably I didn't hear anything about it here But that's one of the things that I get upset about is you don't hear anything about cuba here And meanwhile it has really been in my mind Crime against humanity what the united states has done in cuba and there's never any news about it here ever ever ever But send the friends. What is then the future? Just the last point around Is that Okay, so the the free press which is what was it today? Maybe eight pages or 10 pages. Yeah, horrible. They didn't run that they didn't run that story, but The reason you go down with Educators and anyone else and they're all blown away Is we just get this constant drift if you would have seen that story That would have been the line Because that was the only line the u.s. Press was covering You know, it wasn't A story about cuba. It was a story about u.s. Foreign policy Through the lens of a baseball game because everything is everything's about politics The cubans make it about politics frame that's been their strategy for the last 60 years Everything is about politics. Everything is about cuba the future of then the stance of the u.s. Towards cuba Are we can we expect any change? I don't expect any change because briefly we had changed from obama The reason I think obama was at least friendly toward cuba obama recognized something that almost no other americans recognize cuba is a largely black Country and cuba. I think i mean obama has sympathy for it Oh, but beyond that, you know obama beyond that beyond that it will never to me it will never change What i've what i've what i've seen i saw in cuba is like obama brought hope. Yes, and then to all of us No, no, but there were like some Clear, you know You know advantages. Yeah advantages of you know people started building New hotels, you know, they were hoping that you know the situation will get better And then even the economy was a little, you know Oh, the economy was much better. Yeah, so there is a correlation. There is a direct relation between the embargo And the wealth of cuba. I mean the well-being the well-being of cuba. So if it's changed if it changes, maybe Well, if we see like right now, we have a trickle of americans going down there. Yeah checking things out and travel We're trying every all the time to increase it travel busts down ignorance So if we can if we can build on that trickle and get more and more americans going down there and seeing the effects of The embargo and things like that then maybe we can affect positive change for cuba and the cuban people So, you know this this trip was wonderful Yeah, just on that point out there was this story i've forwarded to you folks today that The amount of dialogue between the two embassies has Really picked up significantly and here we go. So the u.s. Government and the cuban government Were supporting uh, two american musicians at the havana jazz fest last month There were three other festivals that had the two governments supporting cultural exchange, so they're they're saying it's the biggest thought in cultural exchange in six years and we'll say I think it's i mean i do i agree that's true and until the prisoners Yep are released from july of 2021 by well Probably do anything about taking them by the terrorist list. Yep. Yeah, okay But then you know what grim then they'll come up with another i know they will i agree with you You know, they'll come up with something else. Yeah, okay. I think we're just about out of time Thank you all for joining us And um, we'll be back in a month or so. Great. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you Nice to hear everyone's voice come back. I'm good to hear you grim when you come back First of week of april he thought Okay, so then i'll wait for him to come back to have our next caps meeting. Yeah, okay. Sure. Because joanne's gone too. Yeah, sure