 Hi, I'm Austin Davis and we're live with live at 525 a little bit after 525 I'm the director of government affairs with the Lake Champlain chamber, which is a nonprofit chamber of commerce that represents employers in the greater Burlington area and this week joining me is Mara Murrow-Weimer and I asked him on the show today to talk a little bit about some of his Policy proposals around public safety in Burlington, which the Lake Champlain chamber board formally endorsed recently the chamber had had a small working group on Proposals and they closely aligned with many of what the mayor had set forth and we made the decision to rather than Add something new to the environment to in fact just endorse something that's already in existence And that was our pleasure. So thank you for joining me. Mr. Mayor and Look forward to chatting with you a little bit about some of these I guess great set the stage for me I mean, I think you've done a lot of work over the last decade around Public safety modernizing policing And really in a lot of ways we're ahead of the curve and your the times in this subject I guess set the stage a little bit for me here about the background on some of these Yeah, great. I'm happy to do that and Austin. Thanks for having me on the on the show and I can't I don't know that if I remember over the last 11 years a time when the The chamber took an action quite like this and endorsed a plan You know, obviously we've worked closely together on many things, but I appreciate the proactive Step that the chamber took and I'm really important time when we're a lot of ways grappling with public safety issues that we haven't Had to face in the past and and I appreciate the chamber stepping up and then taking a stand on some Missing clean on issues within this that there's some controversy around But yeah, let's go back because you're right. I mean first of all, Burlington has a 150 year old police department. I mean it's only the the police department is almost as old as the the city itself and In recent decades it has we've been fortunate to have really strong leadership I think at the at the department almost without you know, maybe without exception for decades now and Part of that strong leadership has been focused on you know, obviously what you think of traditionally of Public safety issues keeping crime level levels low, but there's always been I think a strong commitment to Progressive policing principles in Berlin. I say obvious but the firm for in recent years there has been certainly I will say, you know, I came into office in 2012 and I came in as Someone who had had frankly, you know, not so much exposure to public safety issues before running for mayor I ran on financial issues. I ran committing to get some of the municipal projects that we had That were we're stuck installed getting them moving. I ran on housing issues But in my first few years as mayor it became clear to me that as as much as we had a very strong police department We were not immune to these larger Real concerns about American policing. We had we had a protest that went Bad the police reaction to it the police managing of it was was Was problematic in 2012 we had an officer involved shooting of someone and death of someone suffering from a mental health episode and that's actually happened twice in the time that I've been mayor and so by 2015 when President Obama came out with what he called a It was it was a road map it was it was a plan for 21st century policing it was really I thought quite compelling and A lot of what we have done in the year since has been grounded in that In that document and the principles of that document So some examples of what I'm talking about, you know, we we've been Committed to building trust and transparency a great example of that is the the body cam camera Policy that the the city has has had we were in the first departments in New England to put body cameras on all of its officers I think something that I think I don't even think today the state police have body cameras on all officers I could be maybe I'm not quite up to date on that something they have cruisers that have cameras That's a little different, but you know, we very early Made that commitment and we continue to refine how that works. We just recently hired a redaction specialist that's allowing us to put out Video of many use of force incidents quite quickly after they happen now redacted so that important information is protected But we're we're committed to that level of transparency and you see that in having a transparency portal with a lot of data you see that in an annual report that we put out every year that is a very extensive statistical report So, you know, that's one area I said you want to you where do you want where else you want to you know, and then You know, so moving forward, I mean, I think all these these things happened and then you know, we had the pandemic and I think across the country we saw a lot of downtown's kind of See some troubling trends and I don't think Burlington's unique in this sense and I don't think that Burlington is Immune from what we're kind of seeing across the country but there has been some startling changes in downtown's across the country that we have experienced as well and One of those is just an increased use of of firearms within the city And I understand, you know, one of the top Top proposals in your public safety policy is around a task force on gun violence prevention Can you tell me a little bit more about that or yeah a little bit more about that? Absolutely. So you're right Austin the Since the pandemic and in 2020 in the years after after years of declining levels of homicides and Violent crimes in general there was a the country saw a real change in direction and a real spike in in gun crimes nationally and homicides Burlington definitely experienced that in 2022. There's also rise in property crimes and so What what has been happening in Burlington is not not unique I do think it's going to take action at the local level to to turn it around and We have been acting on a number of fronts. We I'm proud of the work the police department has done to try to hold shooters who have perpetrated these crimes accountable over 80% of the shootings over the last three years we now have had the police have made arrests in and it does seem you know Every time I say this kind of want to knock on wood But it does seem there's been a slowing in the in the levels of shooting that we saw Last spring and summer as we got into the fall it slowed down there Another area however, though that where I think we need to take further action is is you know combined with the work on the enforcement side We I created this task force and put Kim Carson our new director of the racial equity inclusion belonging department in charge of it to Really try to first of all help us understand what is happening here the this dramatic increase in crimes there's been some public discussion on What seems to be driving parts of it? But really the it was a variety of causes that I think have not been sort of fully understood and grappled with I Do you think we have to ask ourself? whether there are some gaps in the way we work with youth with our teens that maybe Could be filled in and they could Help us Find kids who are having a hard time Make sure they understand their value of members of the community and help them find a different path than the kind of violent path That some of them have have headed down here and gotten in serious trouble. So that's what this task force is Focused on doing there is going to We've been doing some internal work getting ready for it And I think you'll start to see some public discussion about it this this month in March now that we've Yeah, and in addition to You know that work there are some some trends kind of already apparent in some of these incidents relating to guns and one of them as I understand it is the Availability of lost or stolen Firearms that's been used and so this is actually a place where the city of Burlington was far ahead of its time and Trying to look at safe Ordinances that would require a safe storage of these firearms and you know potentially Reporting lost or stolen firearms and that's something you're going to be You're pushing the legislature for in Montpelier as well as Austin that we've endorsed your plan You know, how do you think that's being received so far? Yeah, so The background this issue is interesting as well, right so back in 2012 the end of 2012 the year I came into office. We had this historically awful shooting in mass massacre in Newtown, Connecticut where over 20 kindergarteners first graders teachers lost their lives and in the wake of that We had really there'd been many years since there have been a serious discussion of Changing our gun violence laws here in Vermont and I joined up with some other mayors and said we really got that this can't continue this we this is no other country in the world lives this way we need to do something about this and that carried into town meeting day on 2014 We took a series of proposals to the voters that voters endorsed overwhelmingly and You know looking back on that Austin in some ways we came up with that list. We saw these as as initiatives that we meaningful and we also saw them as Practical things you could do at the local level since it seemed like the state and the federal government were doing nothing at the time It is striking when you look at this list now how had the legislature allowed us to act had We they given us the ability to prohibit guns and bars had they given us the ability to require Guns in Burlington to be secured Stored safely it really could have impacted this recent spike in crime Yes, six of the 17 guns that have been recovered at crime scenes or related to crimes That the BPD has has found the last the last 17 six of them were were stolen guns fully a quarter of these gun violence Incidents that we've seen over the last couple of years have been late night bar related violence had it been Illegal to bring a gun into the bar You may well, I think it's likely that we would have had to have fewer of these incidents fewer of the less of this Violence so what I am I was just down yesterday in fact and part of an event with Gunsense, Vermont with senator Bruce and others and I I Do you think the safe storage provision in particular is? Has some momentum there it that every speaker who got up yesterday, I think Wait wait in on that safe storage has been shown to reduce violence among kids by as much as 70% if you have a Gun properly stored in a home can have a very positive impact on on suicide prevention And every other New England state already does this so I have a feeling that at least that provision is finally gonna become law this year Yeah, it's as background for those viewing at home. We're not familiar Vermont's what's called a Dillon rule state so any authority that the Musepality has is actually has to be granted to them by Montpelier so even though Burlington voters had advanced a You know a piece of policy to create a safe storage That was held up in Montpelier. I think it's um, you know, it's it's unique Blind spot in Vermont. I think it's you know part of our kind of rural heritage that folks are very proud of their second amendment rights and you know reluctant to have any kind of action on on Firearms, however, you know, this is a very narrow common sense item that I think folks really should come around to and I think I have some optimism that this legislative session we can we can have those those sensible discussions Yeah, anything else on that well Just to just add to I mean it is you're right I think we had what's striking to me is some of the other states that have The prohibition of guns and bars, which like you said just strikes me as a base We know that guns and alcohol can be a dangerous volatile mix We've seen terrible incidents in Burlington. We had a Bicenter get shot almost woman almost lost her life out of the side of necks or is a few years ago Other there are other states for the pre-rural character that have a strong strong traditions of Hunting and gun ownership for subsistence reasons that have that have this kind of provision in place Alaska, South Dakota, Kentucky are all states that prohibit guns and bars currently I hope I know at least one Burlington legislator has put forward such a bill It would be great if that got added to what moves this year, you know And folks make bad enough decisions with cell phones under the influence of alcohol You know, I think it's pretty reasonable to try to keep the guns out of their hands while they're under that influence Let's just talk a little bit about improving downtown climate. I know you've got some some proposals around that Talk to me about crisis advocacy intervention programs. Yeah So I gotta say Austin now that it we if we can maintain this much lower level of gun violence I think this really need then becomes Really what needs to be a top focus in 2023 too often last summer we were not consistently able to Maintain the welcoming positive Space where everyone feels safe and Desired to be there that That you know that that has defined downtown Burlington for decades and has made it such a vibrant beloved downtown and We we need a different year and in 2023 and There are a number of reasons why I am I'm hopeful it will be different one is I think a really important reason that doesn't get a lot of discussion is but that's that essentially the whole court system shut down for More than two years and that is that is over the long emergency order that Really was You know just sort of took away our accountability system to a large degree for a long time that that is now operating again Hopefully that will help another positive trend is around the alt these alternative resources. You just mentioned so we Have gone from just a couple years ago. We had essentially one person with a social work background working for the police department We now have increased their their six positions there and they're almost all filled at this point. We have also Added community service officers. These are a way to expand our public safety presence without but With that through individuals that are not armed. They're not police officers, but they do carry radios and they are uniformed and they Help project a broader sense of public safety in the downtown Another real change since last summer is we now have the Elmwood Avenue shelter Is is up and operating and this is a public health approach to try to help people who are unhoused and help them access resources that You know really focused effort to help people access resources in a new way get them help hopefully all these New resources the idea is that all these new resources will have a positive impact on the downtown At the same time that we are also Rebuilding the police department, which is also of course an important part of the public safety presence that we want to be able to Maintain and project in the downtown. We have some momentum with there as well We chief mirad and I brought forward to the council as part of the budget process last year a three-year rebuilding plan The council approved that unanimously and it does have millions of dollars in it for this multi-year plan to rebuild the department and We're we're on track now that you know It's about a little more than six months since that and we're on track with six officers off at the academy right now That's our biggest recruitment class. We've had in years. We actually had one officer who left us in the period after The reduction authorized head count. He has actually come back to us So there's there's some encouraging signs and that's even before we started a nationwide marketing effort Which was also funded out of that plan and We're in the process of finalizing a firm to work with us there So I think there's there's some reasons to be hopeful that that's had in the right direction as long as we and maybe this is You know something I know we want to get to before we run out of time here is the one trend cutting against all that is Is if this community control board conversation? Yeah, so let's talk about that I want to get down to back to recruitment and you know for those who are have haven't seen it. It's a it's a very thorough 16-point proposal Multiple pages that can be available. I believe on the city's website It's in the one of the latest or many of the latest Lake Champlain Chamber advocacy updates that are available on our website as well but number 14 on this list is particularly timely as we head into town meeting week and that is you know urging folks to reject the ballot initiative that seeks to create the community control board and To set the stage for this. This is a you know from an organization of professionals You know working in this region. I think we all can acknowledge that professionals should be Regulated by professionals you wouldn't ask you know a medical examining board to have anyone with Experience in the state hospital system to need not apply However, that's exactly what this community control board by its language is set up to do is it not I? Think this is a very problematic proposal. I It's the I understand and agree with the idea that we need police accountability. This is not the way to This is not the way to achieve police accountability this I This proposal which is the kind of some of the backers that have acknowledged is unprecedented in the country Really it takes sort of concepts from really big cities that have had decades of police corruption issues and serious police brutality Problems LA Chicago Oakland those are really the only boards in the country that have these kind of disciplinary authorities It takes those concepts and then What is on you know unprecedented sort of innovative with this proposal it strips away all of the Commitments really to procedural justice that You know officers want to have to your point They want to know they're going to be judged fairly if they are being brought before the board to determine You know if they've been involved in kind of incident where discipline is being considered All professionals will want to know they're going to be treated fairly and really all the protections or many of the protections at least that Are in other systems have been and in our current system are stripped away Some examples of that are there's no appeal right with within the system Which is a kind of bedrock tenant of the way? City employees are treated. There's no ability to grieve decisions that up to two weeks of suspension that That might be imposed and very importantly yes the people who would be sitting on this board They are prohibited from serving on the board if they have had law enforcement background currently or or ever in in their careers There are and you know other systems require people to be judges or attorneys or have HR backgrounds or You know some some clear professional background training in that would be on point with with with disciplining officers and There are none of those safeguards that are a part of this and there's no political accountability And this is well this board would be appointed by Non-profits that are through a kind of complicated process selected by by the city if the board was making Problematic decisions of the board was spending millions of dollars. There would be very there's nothing in the charter change that Clearly gives the city council or the mayor the ability to control that or to to make a change on that board Almost creates a Parallel government that's set up by non-profits Yeah, I think that's a I think it's a fair way to characterize it. It is with no accountability to taxpayers or voters at all in the city Remarkably, that's what there's nothing else like it in the in the city charter I don't think this is the way to go I think the the way to achieve police accountability is to continue down the path We've already invested a great deal in you know since since that document since that pivotal time in American policing that I was Mentioning before in since 2016 we have been Repeatedly and steadily investing in strengthening the the Burlington Police Commission in clarifying Refining what their responsibilities and mandate is and giving them additional resources at this point every Citizen complaint is reviewed by by the police commission every Use of force incident is reviewed by by the police commission There's not a ton of awareness about this because these are confidential processes What and it's it's which is you know required by by a policy But there's a lot of review that's going on You know I have to clear I have not always agreed with the way the police commission has approached these new Responsibilities we've had we've had some differences here, but I see that as part of a process of You know refining the system figure out and making it work and investing in it And we should continue that instead of throwing that out and starting from scratch or something else Well, it's always difficult to ask folks to to embrace complexity and I think you know because this is such a Such something that touches all of our lives that we all have exposure to it's easy to kind of look at it and think that The solutions are easy and the fact is you got to embrace complexity and really lean into it And there's a lot of very difficult things at play here. There's existing the laws. There's case law There's the collective bargaining agreement with the police force all of these things that have to be navigated So it's it's no easy task. It sounds like you're have a great deal of agreement with you That's kind of Across the political spectrum that this isn't the solution I'm hopeful. That's right. I mean certainly the the it is not just the chamber that has come out and stood with me and Taking a stand on this issue It's other organizations that work directly with the police department every day I know how important the police department are to a public safety in this community So the hospital which has had all sorts of challenges over the last couple years with some real violence in their emergency room They they are against this control board the Howard Center came in and voiced their concern We've had Many past city counselors and past police commissioners have have joined a coalition I am hopeful that people are understand that This is this is problematic You know really to your point in Austin Complicated things I think are hard to do through ballot initiatives what the majority of the council came out and opposed the passage of Question number seven and said in the wake of a defeat There will be further work to keep looking at this issue keep working on the details deal with all that complexity and Look for ways that our current system can be Made still better. I think that's clearly the better route to go Hope the Brawling Tonians are hearing this call and If they do I think it will actually Really be a shot in the arm. It will give a further boost to our efforts to rebuild the department and Get back to The levels of public safety that we've long enjoyed here in Burlington So there's a lot of components to this as I said, you know the 16 points one thing that kind of jumped out at Me is particularly innovative was your call to create non-residential Alternative paths to becoming a police officer Currently right now if you want to become a member then serve your local community You have to leave Your community for quite some time which isn't really feasible for a lot of folks So I guess elaborate a little bit more on that for me. Yeah, thanks This is a really important issue and one that there's been sort of a discussion of in one level number for a while but I think this is now an idea whose time has really come the Policing profession is really challenge right now. It's not just in Burlington that the police department is struggling to maintain its numbers This is really a statewide phenomenon. I'm really a national phenomenon I went to a big mayor's conference being in January and one of the best attended Panels was about about exactly this issue. How do we how do we ensure that there is a police? There's a there's a group of individuals and wanted to play this essential role going into the future Some of the historic areas where we've recruited police officers from the past are a lot of people used to come out of the military and go Into policing less and less That's less That's becoming a less productive There's less people are coming out of that background that want to go into policing and I think we've also been sort of grappling with we We don't Well, we have many great officers who have a military background. We are also looking for something different In officers one of people who are have a kind of guardian mentality not necessarily kind of the warrior mentality that a lot of people Come through the military that that's what they're doing well in the military So we do need to recruit from different populations. I think we have a real opportunity to do that here in Burlington in particular that we have we have large numbers of Refugee groups that have moved here and then in general, you know, many of them very much value how law enforcement is a important part of You know, it works works here in a way that in many other parts of the world. It is not effective but we make it very hard for Like you just said that many people just are not in position to go down to rural Vermont Pittsfield, Vermont Separate from their families for three months to pursue the certification You need it would be great if we had some kind of Chittenden County facility where people could go to night classes Where they could go on weekends and maybe over a longer period of time get the required accreditation Certainly not unique to policing. I mean anything that as the chamber we see it in many places You know, most of our professional regulation and training is really just kind of built around the idea of an abundance of workforce Yeah, you know, it was built by one of the largest generations in American history the boomers and now we're just seeing less and less people present for every kind of job and You know, I think we're in a really a pivotal point in our history where we need to kind of understand if we should start pulling back or having You know, just less restrictive barriers to entry for different professions or finding Similar types of experiences that can you know be pushed into that profession. So very unique You know commend you for for looking at such a into the weeds the complexity of the issue getting to a really root cause and I think That's a fantastic Option right there. I think we're running close on out of time any any parting thoughts in the last 30 seconds or I Think I'll just close by saying again Austin, I appreciate the partnership with the chamber the support for this plan I Hope it all bro and Tony is who are watching this will understand that There really is a very important decision in their hands with ballot question number seven we Have a again, I think there is some real momentum right now addressing some of the challenges that we saw in the last couple of years We either are going to put some more wind in the sails of that momentum towards rebuilding the apartment towards Continuing to implement the 21st century policing reforms that have been such a big focus for years Or we are gonna undercut the progress of the last year and a half if this goes through So if people have more questions about this, there's quite a bit more information about the ballot item on the website. There's a On the city's website as well as there's a campaign website out there and would encourage people to go and if they still do have questions on this Get more informed before they make this important vote. Well, thank you mayor. I think that's our time for today I'm Austin Davis director of government affairs for Lake Champlain chamber and See you next time folks