 Welcome to Resiliency Radio with Dr. Jill, your go-to podcast for the most cutting-edge insights in functional and integrative medicine. I'm Dr. Jill, and on each episode you'll hear the deep dive into the heart of healing and personal transformation. Join us as we connect with renowned experts, thought leaders, and innovators who are at the forefront of medical research and practice, and most important, how to be more resilient. Today, our guest is Andy. Andy, welcome to the show. Hi. Thanks for having me, Jill. You're so welcome. So Andy is an indoor environmentalist and the director of education at Green Home Solutions Company. She works as an advocate for those navigating toxic mold and other environmental illnesses by guiding them through finding proper inspector, interpreting reports, and finding appropriate doctor. First of all, I am so happy you're here, and we just started like a few minutes before. I'm like, oh, we got a record because I know this conversation is going to be so great for those listening. We have so many people who've been through Lyme and mold illness and all of this. Why don't you start by just telling us a little about your journey because you've been through a lot yourself to get to this place. I have. Thank you. I have my educations in the sciences, much like you, I wanted to practice medicine, but I wanted to provide something different. And in school, I excelled in the sciences, so it made sense to practice medicine. So that's what I set out to do originally. But I wanted to do something different. I wanted to be a doctor that asked about what you ate. I met my husband late in life, and I was a full-time pre-med student at the time, and we decided to start our family because that was important to me. And when our daughter was two, she developed lead poisoning from our rental home in Minneapolis. And mother's intuition, miracle, whatever you want to call it, I caught it right away. And we purchased our first home. So we purchased our first home in October of 2017. I'm also a Midwest girl. We found just a cute little house in a very modest house, and we had it inspected. And we moved in. And about a year after being in the house, my health started to decline. It started out as kind of seemingly unrelated things. And I noticed, you know, ringing in my ears, migraines, brain fog, and by after being in the house two years, it progressed to dementia-like symptoms, seizure-like episodes. It was pretty profound. What we discovered is that I had neurological Lyme disease. They think that I've had Lyme disease since I was about 14. And so we started an out-of-pocket treatment protocol, which was expensive. And I did that for about a year with no improvement. And during the time I was unable to work, I had just crippling anxiety. That was not typical for me. A lot of pains. It was just very odd. And I just never got better, and then we ran out of money. And a woman on Facebook reached out to me. I was in all these Lyme groups, and I was really trying to connect. And because I had, you know, the pre-med side, I really researched. I read everything that I could read. And I started connecting the Lyme and mold connection. And a woman online reached out to me and says, you're not getting better because you're living in a mold. And I said, no, I'm not. You know, my mom sold us this house where we had it inspected. I keep a really clean house. And I remember I traveled. I went down to see my best friend and I came home and I walked in the door. And 10 minutes later I realized that it was environmental. And so we really started diving into that. And what we found was we had just a little bit of visible mold, but the hidden mold was substantial. So by the time we realized that mold was, you know, a factor, we were tapped out. It was during the pandemic. We have three kids. My husband and I, we have so much love in our marriage. And I just, I love my husband to pieces and we are so blessed, but money has never been one of our blessings. So we were tapped out. So during this time I was really struggling and I knew what I was faced with. And so in March of 2020, I rewrote, I rewrote my life insurance policy and I tripled the coverage. And, and I, and I read the fine print and I, and I just thought, well, if I don't get better, I can't do this anymore. I love life. I have a wonderful husband and three beautiful kids and I love the mundane and, but I was suffering so much. I didn't, I didn't want to be here. And so I started writing letters and they were goodbye letters. This is where my book comes into play. So I said, listen, this is either going to turn into a book where I got through it, or these are going to be my goodbye letters. Yeah. So we finally figured it out. And I said to my husband, I said, it's, it's the house and my husband bless his heart is just like, okay. And so we moved out to a tent in our backyard and we lived in that tent for three months. Wow. I had two kids ages four and six, my oldest, who I shared custody website with his father, and we lived in that tent for three months with our two kids, our two little dogs. And it's there that I started reading. And I started reading everything I put on mold remediation indoor air quality, mold toxicity. I mean, you name it, I read it. Yeah. At first it was really tough for me because I had dementia like symptoms. It was very scary. I thought my, my oldest son was my little brother. I couldn't forget my kids names, but I had caught on to brain rewiring. Yeah. Which is by the way, a really big part of my story. So I was, my brain was so far gone and I was, it was weird because I knew it. I was kind of stuck in my brain stuck in my head, but I was kind of like a, like a third party observer. I was at high risk for, for dementia and Alzheimer's due to neurological Lyme. So I started reading as an as a neuroplasticity exercise. So I would read every day, I would do a puzzle every day. And I tried to change my routine things that promote neuroplasticity. And so it was tough. I would read the same sentence 20 30 and I'm not exaggerating 20 30 times. But I kept at it because I was reading about how to empower my family. We didn't have money to hire an indoor environmentalist or a mold remediation company. We were, we were tapped out. So I kept reading and I read just an astounding amount of books that year. I mean, it's really incredible. I kept a list and it's, it's pretty unbelievable. Michael Pinto of wonder makers environmentally. He's an educator and I sent him an email one night at two in the morning. I said, I'm living in a tent. This is my story. Well, he responded and he sent me a textbook. He sent me a used textbook. Damnation. And I read it covered to cover. It's on my desk right now. So anyways, I eventually recovered. We remediated our home on credit cards and we were moments away from losing the house. And I thought, this is what I want to do. I want to help people. So I reached out to a local business owner. And I, you know, I, I went in and I had, I didn't have a resume. Cause I have no, you know, no history in this industry. I said, I've read these books in the last year and I dazzled him and I chased him down for two months. And I said, listen, you're going to hire me. And if you don't, I'm going to show up at your doorstep and his exact words were like, you are weird, but okay. So the power of persistence, right? And he's a smart man. So he did hire me. And for the past two years I've developed my own role in this company because he's like, here I have this hyper sensitive individual. What the heck am I going to do in my organization? So he, my first day was literally like, here's your desk. I have no idea what you're going to do. So in the last two years, I've really developed my role. I act as applying to advocate. So it's mold remediation and environmental illness is very personal to me. This is going to sound weird, but when we were looking at houses, I dreamt about this house. And the day that we were going to see it, I said to my husband, we're going to buy our house today. And it's listed at this price and it's owned by a single man and my husband laughed at me says, we're seeing two houses today and even liked anything. And so I always thought that, that God led me to this house. And when I got sick, I got really mad at God. Yeah. Yeah. So, and of course now I see the big picture, right? So, so this industry is very important to me. It's very personal. And so for the company that I work for now, I offer very personal aspects. So I kind of guide people through it. I'm the director of education. I understand how important proper remediation is. And I really, really love environmental testing. I was a microbiology major. I am phasing out of my current position. After reading your book, I have decided to start my own business. I, I love the crew I'm working with now. I love my team, but I was there to learn. Yeah. And I've learned what I've needed to and I'm starting my own business. And I got the business name from your book, unexpected. I was reading it and a word kept coming out at me. And it's a line. So my new business venture is going to be a line mold consulting. I have a wonderful business partner, somebody who bad put my life. And our goal is to align our clients with appropriate professionals that are dedicated to healing environmental illnesses. Environmental illnesses are terribly devastating and they're, and they're financially exhaustive. You have to diagnose your environment. You have to heal your environment. You have to diagnose your body. You have to heal your body of all these steps and they're all out of pocket. And, and people really need an advocate. I want to go back to a few parts of your story. So P number one, you said this overwhelm in the beginning. I just want to talk about that briefly because I think so many people in your situation. The first thing is overwhelm and mold actually makes that worse by hijacking our brain, right? So when our brain has the cognitive issues, it's actually using more resources, which means that every little task takes more energy and that overwhelm. And I kind of want to just acknowledge what you said, because that's so common to people. And then. And so tell, tell a little about that when you first kind of realized the gravity of what was happening. And then also the lack of resources, right? First of all, I love that you went out and did. Well, what can we do? Well, we can go live in the tent. I mean, that's amazing. It was fun for us. We, you know, it was, it was very bougie. It was very nice. But I was, I was really sick and I wanted my kids were so little and they were, it was during the pandemic. So it was like schools not safe. And then I don't get emotional until I talk about my kids, but we were telling them that school wasn't safe. They couldn't go to the grocery store and then it was, your house isn't safe. Your toys. So during COVID, you mean all of a sudden they couldn't go places. And then. Yeah. Yeah. So, and by the way, in your book, you, you mentioned something and I cried and then I called my husband at work and I said, Oh my God, Dr. Jill just said this. I kept calling my husband. I was driving him nuts. My husband works in grocery and I kept calling him. I'm like, Oh my gosh, Dr. Jill said this. You said that when you have a mold exposure, even with all your knowledge, it was like, whoop. Yes. Yes. And by the way, the week that I read your book, I was overdoing it. I don't, I also am a people pleaser. Yes. You and I have, you and I are so much alike, except I'm more type A than type C. And, and I, I, I overdid it so much. I thought I was having a heart attack. And my husband almost called an ambulance and my, my business partner came over. I was fine. But then I realized that I had a mold exposure. So, so one thing that I talk about really frequently and it's, and I've gotten some, I've gotten some slack for it. Mold can cause suicide ideation. Yes. And for me, it did. Yeah. And, and because I am an advocate and I talked to people all over the US, I, I, I, I share this with people and I share it with them, I share sympathy because I want to create a safe space. I want to start that dialogue. And I can't tell you how many times I've had grown men break down and say, I've been feeling that way. I think this is ironic. So one thing you should know about me is I'm a mycology enthusiast. And if you can see in my background, I have mushrooms everywhere. I love mushrooms. Yes. And I was reading about fungi and my serial networks long before I knew I was sick from mold. Wow. But it's interesting because what does mold do in nature? Yeah. It decomposes. Yes. So it makes sense that mold wants you to. Decompose. Right. Let's stop there because this is so important and two things you mentioned that are so critical. And first of all, just so our listeners know, we didn't, I didn't plan this that you would talk about the book. I'm so grateful that you are sharing, but I love what you do. And I love that it's impacted you. And I hope that more people will fill that, whether it's through talking to you or reading my book or any resources out there. Because when you're out there suffering with this, the biggest part is you feel alone. You feel isolated. You feel crazy. It's very, very difficult. So I just want to acknowledge that. And I want to thank you because I did. Yeah. And that's so common. If you feel like you're losing your mind. Hey everybody, I just stopped by to let you know that my new book, unexpected finding resilience through functional medicine, science and faith is now available for order wherever you purchase books. In this book, I share my own journey of overcoming life threatening illness and the tools and tips and tricks and hope and resilience. I found along the way. This book includes practical advice for things like cancer and Crohn's disease and other autoimmune conditions, infections like lime or Epstein bar and mold and biotoxin related illness. What I really hope is that as you read this book, you find transformational wisdom for health and healing. If you want to get your own copy, stop by read unexpected.com. There you can also collect your free bonuses. So grab your copy today and begin your own transformational journey through functional medicine in finding resilience. Yes. That's it. Yeah, let's talk briefly because you mentioned in the book and then you mentioned your experience. But what I realized is when you get exposed to mold, I've been doing this for years. I'm the mold expert, right? But still, if I walk into a moldy building, I would just will start feeling overwhelmed, sad, maybe anxious, once in a while really dark. Yes. I don't, the insight, mold will tend to steal the insight cognitively. So the insight is your ability to realize in real time what's happening. And I just want to be real clear for those listening, mold will kind of sabotage that. So often a day or two later, I'll look back. For example, in December, I was traveling to speak in hotels and one of them was very moldy. And during that trip, I remember I was waking up to do a book signing and speaking. I love these things, but I get up in the morning and I literally was in bed and I'm like, I can't do it today. I can't get out of bed. I can't face these people. That's not me. I love what I do. I love, love, love speaking and talking to people and signing books. But that morning I felt so down and so overwhelmed and so exhausted. Well, of course, two days later, I'm like, oh, they were doing construction in the hallway. I got a massive mold hit. And as soon as I took charcoal, I thought better, but in that moment of waking up and feeling miserable and like I couldn't perform or get out of bed that day, I did not think, oh, this must be mold. I'll be okay. All I thought was this is terrible. I'm falling apart and the world is ending, right? And I want to say that because it's just over and over again, even with me who knows mold, I know to recover from it. I know how to get well quickly from it. I still have times where I get exposed and I don't, in the moment, realize it. And I think that's very important because it does mess with the emotions a lot. It does. It does. And I'm so glad you mentioned this in the book. And that was one of the points that I cried because I get it. And I mean, I work and work in mold remediation. I've had countless and even really obvious exposures, but I don't put the pieces together until a couple days later. I'm really lucky because I have a supportive husband. And one thing that I see a lot of times in my work is, well, my husband, my wife is sick, but I'm fine. Mold is everywhere. And that's one of my superpowers, by the way, is getting both spouses on board. Because I'm very pragmatic. I have a way of explaining things, but that's the same for me. And what people don't understand. That's really quick, Andy. That's important. I'm here. Let's role play for a second. Because anything for those listening and someone might be sharing it with a spouse who doesn't. So say the situation you walk in, I've had this too in my office and there's husband and wife sitting there. It could be either party, but for example, let's say the wife is really sick with auto immunity, mold-related illness, maybe infections, not doing well. And she's certain there is a toxic exposure in her home. Maybe she has evidence. The husband's sitting there, arms crossed, and he thinks his wife is crazy. He thinks, I don't know what is wrong with her. Everywhere we go, she gets sick. She's not well. What would you say to this couple? What would you say to the spouse who doesn't really believe there's a real issue? Well, I have this conversation every day. And usually it ends with, can I set up a paid inspection? So, you know, there's a lot, there's a lot to it. And this is part of the reason why mold is unregulated. You have, mold is very biodiverse. And not all mold is the same. We wouldn't be here without mold. Fungi is incredible. But it becomes problematic when you have mold inside the building envelope and the molds that we are most concerned with as indoor environmentalists is water damage molds. And so these are molds that are indicative of water damage. And typically these are the generas that are associated with, you know, toxigenic species and things like that. So, you know, first of all, nobody should be living in mold, period. And if you're not sick, good for you. It means that you have a healthy immune system. You're just carrying out those toxins. You're carrying them out quicker than you can fill your toxic bucket. I have Lyme disease. So my toxic bucket fills up quite quickly. People have pre-genetic dispositions, autoimmune disorders. Women, women are more at risk than men. It's usually women that are sick. Not always, but usually it's the wife that's sick. And in my home it was myself and my daughter. The boys were pretty okay. But it, you know, first of all, environmental illnesses are really tough because not everybody's affected the same. And that's what we thought. We thought, well, if it was environmental, everybody would be sick. Our dog, by the way, was the first to die. And we had no idea. And it was a neurological disorder. But so you have that biodiversity. And that is part of why there's no threshold limit values, no regulation. And then you have varying hypersensitivity. So people like me, I can't be around any mold. My husband, totally fine in this house. However, you know, the previous homeowners of my home, the wife died of liver and lung cancer at 56. Wow. And that's why the gentleman was selling this house, by the way. And so maybe she wasn't a hypersensitive like me, but she was constantly exposed. And I'm not a doctor, but in my opinion, cancer is end stage mold toxicity. And I feel very grateful that I was hypersensitive. Folks are just like, oh, I'm so sorry that you're sick like that. I'm not. I feel like it was a gift from God because I, I saved my children from being exposed to these things. Like right away, my body said, you know, nothing, something's not right. And so there, there's a lot going on, but you know, it, hypersensitivity is very real. And maybe the husband's not sick yet, but eventually his toxic bucket is going to fill up and then he will be sick. And the way I get them on board is talking about how you should go about diagnosing the house and what that means. A lot of times in the industry with mold inspectors and mold remediators where people get taken advantage of a Sphere Mound Grain. And you should be, you should be aware, but you have to be pragmatic about it. And mold is a symptom of moisture. So there's a right way to go about testing a house and fixing a house and there's a wrong way. And that's usually where I connect with husbands, but it's wildly misunderstood. I lost really a lot of friends. I don't, I lost a lot of family members that just, I was crazy and I was, you know, I was, I was suicidal. I was out of my mind and, and who, you know, when we're sick, who is our safe people, our family, right? So, I'm very, very excited. I'm very excited to see the worst. Well, some of them just left and never came back. So, it's so important to have a spouse that's on board and, and I feel I'd, maybe I didn't have money, but my husband, he saved my life. Because I know he didn't believe me, but he said, okay, I don't want to live out in a tent. Okay. We have to go to the basement. Okay. you really just need an ally that is there. It's interesting because um and my ex-husband and I talk about this very openly um and we actually produced a movie about it together but one of the things that happened prior to our divorce was his line became very active he was shooting a film in Virginia I got into fights and had a lot of you know trauma that came up with that it was very ill and I was very very sick with mold and so we were not connecting we were both so almost traumatized because of the illness that we couldn't really go to that level what happens with mold often as well is you isolate you actually have limited resources you kind of go through the core of who who's there like for me it was just survival with keeping the clinic going going home going to bed doing it again like I didn't have a lot of social life I didn't have and I certainly couldn't go out of my way to take care of my husband's needs nor could he for mine and if we look back now and we're really honest that was 80% of the cause of our divorce and again now God redeemed it because we are great friends and we've learned through I can tell in your book that you love Erin I can I can feel that and I you know I I believe that God puts people in our lives not always for for keeps right right it was this and now we both say that was this awakening that happened and we are much better people for it we're with different partners but the truth is that was a real catalyst the mold related illness was a catalyst for the breakdown of a relationship and like you said I think thank goodness you've had a husband who's incredibly supportive because many of you out there listening have been through this and they don't have spouses that support them and you're already like you mentioned as well you're in a thing where your home should be safe and the thing that should be the most safe place for you is unsafe and even if you think here okay well I can figure it out make it safe your body's like no no no it's not safe right so your safety mechanisms are alarmed and then if that relationship that's supposed to be safe for you your partner your loved one your parents your children is like no you're crazy there's something wrong with you it makes and that's you've done two things in your book that are near and dear to my heart so my you know I'm starting this consulting business a line mold consulting and and I'm not looking to make a ton of money there I'm trying to try to figure out other ways to trickle money and I've never been a woman that wanted to be rich but I do want some nice roller skates you love the roller skate but it's um you know my my initiative my goal is connecting and I'm kind of I'm kind of a uniform I know a little bit about everything so I was pre-med and then I'm you know I'm an indoor environmentalist but I can do inspections and I read just a ton ending growing up I mean I was not a farm girl uh though I'm a Midwest girl but I roofed houses and yeah and grease dump trucks and and worked on cars and road motocross so I have just I have a lot of I'm the the Jill of all trades the most I love it what I really try to do is connect doctors with indoor environmentalists and and people like oh yeah functional medicine functional lesson yes but mental health providers yeah social workers um neurologists I mean all of the things because and you you touch you you mentioned you mentioned a client that you had and three of the tenants that lived in her unit previously there was two homicides and one suicide and that's the moment when I stopped and I cried a new book and and I and I put the book down and I said to my husband um God bless his soul he has heard so many indoor air quality factoids the guy is just beaming with uh knowledge but we have to reach these people because you know we're treating mental illness we're we're you know we've we've got people dying committing suicide when I mean yeah and nobody's connecting the dots you have these doctors all doctors yeah all doctors neurologists functional doctors uh mental health providers social work even social workers everybody yes what are you eating yes yes and have you been exposed to a water damaged building I could not agree more Andy and I'm the doctor saying this I really believe that most causes of depression bipolar anxiety and mental illness have an organic root cause this doesn't mean that you are it's your fault so don't let don't hear me saying that it can happen to you and and you can but the truth is often even with genetics or you're more predisposed to something there is some environmental I would say it's toxic load and infectious burden and those two things together create inflammation and just like your body your brain gets inflamed just the same and you can have over or under production of neurotransmitters like norepinephrine dopamine or serotonin or any other number of neurotransmitters and these are massively affected we know if we look at PubMed studies there's a cytokine called IL-6 and there are literally hundreds of studies that associate elevation of the cytokine which is immune activation with depression with anxiety with even suicidality so we have the documentation and now we know the gut microbiome which is also affected by mold and that's a whole another lecture but the truth is I just want to validate that that a lot of this this mental illness is part of the toxic load and when people realize that it shouldn't make you feel guilty it should actually give you an onus to have the ability to get well and to feel better and even if I like even now I still I get exposed to mold I have more anxiety or mood issues but we can fix that if we get out of the exposure and I would agree with that and if I if I could go back in time I love neuroscience so on my book right now on my desk right now is the inflamed brain which is connecting mental illness with inflammation in the brain I'm reading a book by Dale Bretterson who's got the Bretterson protocol I really read a lot about neuroscience so yes I'm an indoor environmentalist I'm in the indoor sciences but my my heart is is in the neurosciences but that's how you presented I mean you presented with like a kind of cognitive decline we call cognitives either mild dementia or early cognitive decline well and and and this is I am also a woman of I'm a woman another thing in your book the way that you talked about science and faith was a way I've always talked about it and I've never heard anybody else say that and I and again I stopped I cried and I called my husband like oh my gosh you'll never believe and I was like listen to this listen to this and I read to him I said who does that sound like and he said that sounds like you but you know I think that God gave me a special gift because I was a very intelligent woman but I was stuck I was stuck in my brain and and some people that have listened to my interviews that have known me a long time have no idea I was as sick as I was they have no idea because I'm a lot like you and everything's fine and I and I didn't understand it you know I didn't understand it so I felt weak and I felt crazy and I was told that I mean I had family members that were like you're insane you need medical you know mental health well I did because I had inflammation in my brain and that's important I love that you're saying that though because that's really part of it is it like I was saying back in the worst of my mold right after I was so isolated and again I just wasn't what happens is you go into survival mode because all you could do is just basically do the basic daily stuff and in that survival place it's really hard to make the extra energy and effort to connect and there is a part again part of this toxic effect is like going inward because you don't have enough resources to really I mean I remember in the worst of it like engaging in a 30 minute conversation was so exhausting that again that was just too much or going out to a dinner to the lights the sound the noise like everything was too much and yeah sound sensitive light sensitive I have ADD now which I've never had before which you mentioned in your book as well yeah so these things all affect so if you are suffering this is normal but the worst thing you can do is go isolate and let those thoughts take you to a dark place I want to talk briefly about unexpected miracles which really was a real title because you mentioned one I think so important and I can relate even recently about how you had this insight before you saw your house that was going to be like this man and there's a few things you know like you went to buy in that house so you deepen your heart feel like this was meant to be like this was kind of a and then you find out the mold right you're like how in the world and even your anger at God and that whole feeling I think that's important to acknowledge because sometimes I think the miracles the things that come into our life seem so awful and we're like how in the world and whether you believe in God or not we're angry and we're angry at something I want to tell you a personal story that just happened last week I've got a broken arm and I was just praying and meditating this last month of January when we're recording here about just how to really be deliberate and slow down and I've been going at mock speed with a book and a documentary last year and all these wonderful things and I love like you I love my life I am so blessed but the speed at which I was going was unsustainable and I literally was praying and meditating how do I actually slow down and be more deliberate and actually say no to some things that I'm you know saying yes to and and do obligations and the long story short is I break my arm now I can be angry but it slowed me down in a hurry and it wasn't something and I always I've been saying my physical self was like this sucks this is painful this is inconvenient everything I do now takes three or four times as long and I'm exhausted like there's a lot of effects of it but on a spiritual level I literally the moment I looked down and saw my arm and I knew it was broken from the moment I fell down my roller skates I had this sense of like oh I'm gonna have to slow down now and there was a tiniest bit of me that was relieved and isn't that bizarre and yet it's not because I feel like the divine has a way of using difficulty suffering things that are so awful and I would never wish it on anyone but if we can as we're facing tragedy and hardship and suffering and illness start to say what is this here to teach me because if we can reframe there like you did and I I'm doing every day that I can it really does change things because so often when we look back a year or two or four like I look back at my mold experience it was horrible but it made me the mold expert I would never be the doctor I am without that experience the same with you well and that's you said that near I mean and honestly I'm not trying to kiss your butt your book your book I was supposed to read your book last week because I've been doing the same thing kind of praying for a change and I love my position the the job and work you know but I got into it to learn and I'm not making very much and it's been very stressful and I was burning out and it was affecting my health and um and I've also known throughout the years that God has a sense of humor and now I've gotten wiser with my phrase you know with my praying like okay lord I need money but can it not involve a car accident or an injury be gentle right and so and and I I really liked what you said to you about the mindset because I as an advocate and I am sure that you can relate to this it's exhausting you I talk with really a lot of people and there's some people that are so stuck in like these limbic system loops and very negative and very negative and very negative and I try to tell them like just take a step forward like just take a step forward you have to think differently and I know this also if you're listening to this and you're struggling look into brain rewiring it's not just cognitive behavior therapy it's not manifesting it is very physiological you cannot separate the brain from um from your body and if you if your brain thinks it's in a state of fight or flight you're not going to heal there and and it's it's paramount and even when I so by the way you had a list of books like read all of these books first book was Stanley Rosenberg uh The Polyvagal Theory which is my favorite book I have three copies of it I love it I love that book and so anyways you had a reading list I said read it read it read it and then um you know and now and that was paramount so you have to really change your thinking and that's really really tough to do because mold just like we said it puts you in that place of despair it's okay be there feel those things be there but then pick yourself up and walk out of there and take a step for even if it's just a small step take a step forward well pot let's pause there real quick there's something so important that you just said um often trauma causes us to fight flight or freeze and what you just described I think felt like mold granted it can cause us to be angry and fight it can cause us to freeze or run away but the freeze part is common and when you're in that frozen state feeling like you're helpless or you can't do anything one of the ways to activate your system to recover is to move and so one of the ways what you just mentioned when you're talking to someone can you take the next step literally or figuratively can you do something because as you move forward towards an answer even if it's a very small step like calling an inspector or maybe it's calling a friend those movements will start to take you out of the freeze another thing you can do is walking that peripheral movement vast your eyes very healing soothing thing that can take you out of freeze straight so often I just go for long walks yeah and and get out get outside yes yes get outside look up in the sky use you mentioned something and I want to touch on this before our time ends if you suspect that you are being affected by mold you have to be careful on your on your steps and the biggest mistake I see folks make is they they collect data points when um trying to diagnose a home and um for example a lot of people will start with an army test and I I'm personally not a fan of army for and I that's a whole another segment um but when you are are deciding to allocate resources to test in your environment you have to have an objective in mind and you have to have a plan and and and right that seems obvious but what I what I see is a lot of people that collect data points that kind of say the same thing you have it you potentially have an unhealthy fungal ecology in your house well cool okay but they keep collecting those data points and not working towards a diagnosis it would be like um like repeatedly doing blood samples and and kind of getting like there might be disease in your body so if you know if you are faced with that decision you have to really identify an objective if you own your home if the home is yours be able to any any testing any inspections that you allocate resources to should meet two objectives number one identify sources of moisture both past and present if possible and number two identify what if any building material is affected so and again that seems obvious but you know people will spend all this money um a good look at a home should should be holistic in nature a home is a living and breathing entity of pathways you have pressure differentials in biological contaminants such as fungi they can really proliferate I mean fungi is amazing it has a tenacious ability to to produce life so you have to look at the whole home and in my very humble opinion the best first efforts to make is to look at the house as a whole and take a direct approach look for moisture yes if you can identify the moisture issues you're going to identify the mold it doesn't it's not that it doesn't matter but don't get hung up on speciating this mold like mycotoxin environmental testing great it's so encouraging it's exciting but it's expensive to you know to acquire those data points because you want to have resources to diagnose in your environment but then you have to heal that environment yes oftentimes you have to replace your items you have to invest in air purifiers and then you have to diagnose your body heal your body so you can't put all your eggs in this basket yeah so before you allocate any resources to testing your home have a plan in mind and if you ever need help navigating that that is my favorite topic to talk about you know every mold testing methodology has its limitations and strengths you have to understand those and to interpret the data points that they render and then I weigh it because I'm an advocate and and low on funds I weigh that against the cost so don't just jump in without knowing what you're doing you wouldn't just try to diagnose your own body don't just try to diagnose your own home because you're going to spend a lot of money and it could be allocated somewhere else so so I could not agree more I just want to reiterate and what often we do in clinical practices they do bring a patient will bring a qpc art or me test or some other testing but the ideal thing is to really have someone who knows what they're doing and they're nowadays there are you know even virtual types of inspections where someone will go along because what you alluded to as the core issue is knowing where the sources of water are and where the damage is and even someone who isn't an inspector may know that their bathtub leaked or their showers that seal properly or because I can even often with patients I am not the expert I'm the doctor but in questioning them and asking them about sources of water damage or leakage into the home or the attic or the crawl space or etc I could name 101 things we can come to a conclusion about where likely sources could have been and then it's of course you need an expert you need someone who has the ability to help you remediate but if you put all your eggs in any one test that's not going to give you the data well and also when you're when you're vetting these professionals and I know these things by the way because I made all all of these mistakes so and another thing you should never commit to remediation without a good solid diagnosis and that should involve looking at the whole house we didn't we remediated four times but a good mold inspector should be somebody that's accredited through the ACAC something in that capacity so they should know mold because different generas of mold tell different stories so they should be knowledgeable and know anybody can run a mold test but not everybody can interpret them but equally as important if not more important is also having a mold inspector that's very knowledgeable in the building sciences with a good firm understanding of how that building envelope is constructed right and I like to say it's analogous to expecting a doctor to knowing the the anatomy and physiology of a body you want somebody that knows those building codes where moisture can be hiding and why it's there and if you and my favorite inspectors are inspectors that used to be general contractors yes I would totally agree because they know how a house is constructed where the things could go wrong because that's exactly you need a good i'm a medical detective you need a good house detective that is able to go through and look at I totally agree so you start you start zoomed out you look at the whole house you look for moisture with non invasive tools right and they should be using mold testing with thermal imaging moisture meters a good thorough visual inspection a good flashlight and you know and those those more expensive or evasive invasive methodologies those should be reserved secondary for example we have clients I've had clients that say I'm I don't feel good in this house and then I'll go into the house and I don't feel good there either and our inspection which is which is great it's non-invasive it just doesn't pick up on the issue that's when you want to bring in those secondary efforts maybe it's a mold dog right yeah you know or or exploratory remediation or these big heavy-duty tests but you have to be smart about it and and that's what I really love to help folks do so amazing well and it's a it's a beautiful testimony of what you have done with tragedy and to triumph and all these things of like I talk about all the time the true resilience like you are representing that well and it's exciting to hear the direction that you're hoping to go if people want to know more or want to find you where can they find you well we are building our website right now it's going to be a line mold consulting com I'm on facebook as well that is that's going to be my that's going to be my next endeavor I'm going to start my own business which terrifies me but that's what we're going to do and I can't wait we'll have to check in a little year or so and then and for anyone listening we will put resources below wherever you're listening to this thank you for taking your difficulties and turning them into knowledge and passion and purpose you've really been through a lot but it's obvious to see that it's it's being used to help people and to restore lives just like yours has been restored any last bit of parting advice for those listening no I just I want to thank you for doing the same I I fell in love with you reading your book so if you haven't already read Dr. Jill's book you'll lever just as much as I do so thank you for what you're doing and for trail break blazing for for women like me oh thank you so much Andy