 Hello everybody, there are probably as many definitions of marketing as there are people in the room So I wonder how you define it. I Had a pretty defining marketing moments about 11 years ago So picture the scene. I'm studying marketing and advertising at a college in Cape Town called red and yellow and The MD and the advertising agency called Sachi and Sachi comes to speak to us about branding He introduces the concept of love marks Love marks he explained were brands and products that people came to have an extraordinary loyalty towards They had this emotional connection towards them and he explained to us that when companies with strong brands were evaluated This brand equity actually it's amounted to kind of a financial asset So I was fascinated by this concept of love marks and I decided I wanted to learn more about them So at the time we had to choose a love mark of our own and tell a story about them So I chose Apple who remembers when kind of Apple was breaking out and you'd see people with the white headphones And if you didn't own an Apple device your heart would kind of race and you'd become rapidly envious. So that was me and I Had black headphones. I kind of despised these things and I wanted to be part of the Apple magic So Apple was a love mark of mine. I Finished my studies. I worked in advertising for a year I went on to work at an NGO and then I joined yappy chef as Carol mentioned So yappy chef was a small e-commerce startup I joined as the sixth hire by the time I left four years later We'd grown to a hundred and my years at yappy chef were particularly formative because we succeeded in turning yappy chef into one of these love marks And I'm not just saying that there was some kind of third-party verification of this So venture burn wrote an article about yappy chef and described our following our sort of brand following its cult like Which is a little bit creepy, but it was also quite a compliment So how did this happen? At yappy chef we really cared We cared about the products we sold We cared about our customers deeply We cared about one another the staff there was an incredible rapport between everyone who worked for yappy chef And this somehow translates into us creating this world that people felt the strong emotional connection towards So I'd worked there for four years and I was ready for a fresh challenge I moved to London and I joined a company called we themes About a week into working for we themes as a marketer It sort of slowly dawned on me that I joined quite a different world to what I was used to So I don't have any marketers in the room of kind of would relate to having this experience But the world of wordpress was very technical The products were digital so very different to what I'd been used to selling and people love data And the people who coded seemed to be the kings and queens and the people who were very lauded And so I found myself in this strange world and felt like a bit of an alien And I wondered what marketing was going to look like in this world And I was about to find out So I joined the routine That's us in Berlin last year It was a bit of a strange slash through the middle. I'm not quite sure what that is But um, yeah, the routine scaled quite a lot and that's a little bit of what I'm going to be sharing about This is our roadmap And before we dive into that just by show of hands, who's familiar with WooCommerce apart from all the branding that you've seen here Yay, that's very encouraging. So my job is done. No, it's not done Um, so WooCommerce is a plugin for wordpress. The way I describe it to my family Is that you just add it to wordpress and it sort of creates a shock for you So into the first learning learning to embrace change I don't know how you all feel about change by nature. I don't particularly like it In fact, I'd probably describe myself as change resistant as a person But um, it's something that I've had to learn to embrace working at Woo and even more so joining automatic So if you've been a part of the team that's scaled rapidly, you'll understand this So when I joined Woo, we were three. I was doing a typical mixed bag of marketing writing blog posts doing tweeting sending out some emails And that was great. I was a generalist. I was doing all sorts of bits and pieces and then we started growing So Nicole joined our team. She was great with content She was a great editor. Aviva joined our team. She was a data nerd She started asking difficult questions about ROI and why I did things certain ways Kevin joined our team. He was a performance marketer. He was great with sem So you think that this would be delightful, but actually I was horrified Um, I liked being a generalist. I liked controlling things. I liked our team being little And what was happening was I was being forced to embrace change So at the time I read an article which was really helpful which described this process as having to give away your Legos So if you've seen children playing or if you remember being a child playing with Lego and someone tried to take it away from you You didn't want to give it and that slightly high felt at the time But this this article Was really helpful. It said there's a unique feeling of ambiguity chaos and stress that comes with doubling or tripling your team every six months If you don't manage scaling proactively You can end up in trouble Who's been part of a business that is scaled quite rapidly again show of hands. Yeah, it can be a little bit uncomfortable So fortunately for us it was very well managed and huge kilos to Warren He was my manager at the time kind of steered us through this change very ably So Yeah, I was forced to kind of have a bit more of change experience when we was acquired So we was acquired by automatic in 2015 Fortunately, we were more like cousins than strangers in the sense that we was already remote Automatic was also remote. There were a lot of similarities and it was a great fit But it did require this flexibility and adapting So with change we have choices We can dig our heels in we cannot give away our Legos. We can make it difficult for people who are coming in We can believe that the best days are behind us and we can hark back to the golden days Or we can be willing to embrace change and see it as a bit of an adventure So that was one of the first lessons I learned John Mayday, who's sitting in the front row right over here Says that it's important to find the right balance of hope and realism Not becoming too gloomy about the future Or unrealistically optimistic about our current state I love this idea of balancing hope and realism when it comes to thinking about our products and what we're doing and even ourselves So here's a story about when I became a little bit too gloomy So the e-commerce landscape is quite competitive There are a lot of interesting players doing a lot of interesting things We're one of them, which is fun So WooCommerce comes with some challenges as a result of being open source, which this crowd will be familiar with Things like people adding strange extensions to their sites updating and their sites breaking Or small business owners feeling terrified of touching code and having to learn this thing of wordpress So it comes with some challenges But open source is also WooCommerce's greatest strength Our market positioning is that we're customizable But in being very focused on everything else that was going on around us at one stage I began I began to see Woo's openness as a weakness Now at this point I feel like maybe that the stage is going to open and I'm going to be swallowed into a pit Even saying that but but it's the truth. I began to feel Woo's openness was a bit of a weakness of ours um But yeah, this obviously was faulty thinking because it's actually the very thing that sets us apart The thing that people love about WooCommerce is that it's customizable. You can hook things into it It's what makes it really cool So now we're choosing to kind of lean into that I've reframed it in my head and the theme for our WooCommerce developers conference is open e-commerce So it just took a bit of reframing. So in this thing of balancing hope and hope and realism I wonder where you're at with your product or whatever it is that you're working on No doubt it's a mixed bag. There are some parts that probably make you roll your eyes There are some parts you're really proud of but If you've got a bit of a competitive personality where you're keeping an eye on what others are doing Just be sure to kind of remember your strengths And be balancing hope and realism So this is where this talk takes a turn for the personal Um, but I believe that there's power and vulnerability So here we go Who recognizes this little character Yeah This is hero He was designed by John Hicks who also designed the Mozilla Firefox logo When I joined Woo in 2014 as part of my hiring trial I was asked to write a brand document kind of a brand guide and I wrote a story about hero It was a backstory. It was intended to be sort of a personification of our brand So I wrote this little story from my understanding of Japanese culture And It was submitted as part of my application. It was appreciated and it was actually added to our brand guide Flash forward two years. I come back from a very relaxing holiday in Rome with my best friend to something of a storm erupting internally Now mind you all of this was internal so To cut a long shory stort a long shory stort short stort short Someone had had flagged this story as um cultural appropriation and it's being non-inclusive So considering this the spirit in which it was written This was absolutely shocking to me. I think I experienced about a hundred emotions in a split second seeing the comments that were going on and Yeah, I was I was absolutely horrified and I put my hand up I took ownership of it and so began a process Supported by incredible colleagues and people who were willing to be honest with me to help me Understand this thing of unconscious bias, which I hadn't really encountered before So with the best will in the world Um, yeah, I'd written this story and it wasn't inclusive. That was the bottom line The brain uses social stereotypes In order to simplify the massive amounts of information that it receives from the world And heightening the effect is the human preference for people who are similar to us The vast majority of these processes are invisible to the to the conscious mind So here you are sitting in this room. I challenge you to think about this No one likes to think that they carry unconscious bias. It's not a pleasant idea And yet it's it's almost I'd argue that it is unavoidable if you're just one person So what does this boil down to in terms of marketing? For me, it's one of what I consider to be one of the most valuable lessons I've learned as an adult And in terms of translating this lesson into marketing and into new commerce We've tried to start just being really intentional and mindful about this So here's an example when we launched our collaborator accounts Gareth and I gareth the designer and our marketing marketing team We spent quite a while discussing whether or not this image was inclusive No, I don't know if you think it's inclusive or not And I don't think we ended up we didn't end up doing anything groundbreaking at all But it was the fact that we had this conversation that I think was such a healthy sign We were thinking about it. We were thinking about Whether this was inclusive or not another example Um, we did a spring promo recently. I hope you all got the coupon bought some things Um, but if you look at the sign offline in this mail Half the world doesn't experience spring in april and I'm actually from that half of the world So in the sign offline, we included a little acknowledgment of this. We said three chairs for spring and autumn Now it's a tiny thing, but I think it's as marketers We need to be thinking about how we can be inclusive and it's these little steps that we can take So there's no silver bullet here John made a touch on some of these points earlier today. I think one of the keys Is hiring for diversity? I think diverse makers diverse groups of marketers end up producing content that's diverse If you're a small team or you're just a person on your own And you can surround yourself by diverse discourse. You can just be Really focused on breaking out of your echo chamber So that was my story about unconscious bias storytelling and connecting to the who So who has seen an article lately telling them to use storytelling in their content? It's like Yep, everybody's seen it. So I'm about to do the same thing and tell you that it's a great idea so But first some some other thoughts in a bit of a metaphor about content because I love metaphors So this guy looks like he's doing quite well at this party Um, when you go to a party you're trying to meet people You don't really go blazing in tell everyone about yourself Big yourself up talk about everything that you've done And then start demanding things from people maybe even demanding money before you even have a relationship with them before you know them So I think that this is a little snapshot in terms of understanding content And it's certainly the way that I think about it. I think of content as an in It's an inroad It's a way that you can win time You can win a bit of attention in a very in the very frenetic world that we live in As products and brands contents away away into conversations I think that's a great way to think about it Compare this to a Tupperware party Where someone who you think wants to spend time with you invites you over you arrive and it turns out that they just want to sell you Something and you feel duped It's similar to clickbait. I don't understand the logic behind clickbait. It might get you traffic But it does nothing for your brand and does nothing for your bounce rate either So we should be aiming to make content In a way that's more similar to a cocktail party that's going really well and not like a Tupperware party So this thing of storytelling A story about story a storytelling Um, the WooCommerce showcase was launched in 2015 We created this as a space where we we hope that our merchants would submit their sites And just share about what they've been building so people did it was great and from the entries that came in We would spark one every now and again that we felt would make a good story and we tell it on our blog So here's an example How e-commerce was a game changer for an entrepreneurial Lithuanian mum And this was quite an inspiring story. It was very inspiring conversation for me I love speaking to Igla the lady who I spoke to Did this post make us any money? Who thinks this post made us money? Oh So clever. Yeah, it didn't didn't make us a lot of money at all. Um Is it worth doing? Yeah, I would argue that it's priceless And here's why It gets us what got me talking to our users So as sellers of digital products, we don't speak to our users very much. Do we unless you're already absolutely nailing this and doing this all the time We don't naturally speak to our users. We don't naturally see them So how do we stay connected to them? For us Including case studies and stories and our marketing mix has been a really kind of consistent way We've made sure that we keep we keep doing this But for me something interesting happened here. So when our team was smaller, I used to write these posts But then our team grew So I didn't need to write the case studies anymore I I wasn't the person handling tweets and replying to our customers anymore And gradually I got a little bit a little bit disconnected from our customers And the thing I didn't even really realize that it was happening Until on a trip we went a couple of a couple of weeks ago to Detroit So I'm going to share a story from that We went to Detroit. It was a meet-up And this lady Kay shared her story about her business Now Kay lives in Detroit She's got a pottery studio in the outskirts of Detroit and she shared her story with us. She is hustling She's hustling to make her business work. She's working hard She's using wordpress.com actually to share her business online and to get traffic and to make sure that she's on the map And something happened to me listening to Kay sharing her story My heart completely engaged again And I had this realization that I'd lost something That had really been pivotal in marketing that I'd done before which was this deep connect with users and this deep care and concern for users So it was a wake-up call for me I don't think you can really have a sense of the why of your organization if you aren't deeply connected to the who it is You exist to serve So just practical tips here if you're thinking about doing this is set up use the research calls Turn the conversations into stories include them in your marketing mix And remember to tell them internally as well Because you might find that there's someone else in your organization who's become a bit disconnected too And having a culture of storytelling and celebrating the stories of your customers is just a good thing There's a postcard from afterwards, which is fun Social media and return on fields. I'm not sure if I don't think we coined this return on fields thing Who's heard that before Maybe you did. Okay. Well, Kudos to Kevin and our team if he actually made that up because that's kind of amazing So social media has always been a big part of what we do in the world of remarketing We used to use Pinterest as well, but we axed that for focus reasons. So now we use instagram facebook and twitter So something I think people forget about social media is that they're just channels They aren't these magical things that are going to suddenly turn you into this overnight success We probably all know that The other thing I think people forget about social media is that they behave very differently So if you create this wonderful piece of content that's going to add value to your users It's going to be your in at the cocktail party and then you smash it out across all your social media platforms in exactly the same way It's not going to perform as well as when you optimize it per channel So content behaves slightly differently in different channels So by way of example Here is how we announced facebook for WooCommerce Um, I've included a screenshot of the facebook post a tweet and an instagram post And just a few little thoughts on each of these Facebook unless you're boosting your content Anybody gonna see it. So you need to be thinking about that um Yeah, twitter you can mix things up. So sometimes we'll share things as a link sometimes we'll share an image post We're also starting to experiment with doing more ads and remarketing on twitter, which is interesting So it's using emojis and hashtags every time you do that you just get better engagement per tweet We probably experience that just using it personally as well, but it works if you're a brand speaking in that space as well And instagram you have to think that it's at a glance consumption So people aren't gonna click out of instagram and go and read an article They want to get value out of it at a glance So a little practical thing is to include a vanity URL rather than something long So like with blog posts, we measure our success of social media in terms of traffic and revenue But if that was all we did I think it would end up being quite dry So we have this other kind of magical metric in our team, which is return on fields and we We like to sort of do things every night again that are just just for fun or just to make people smile so for example This is uh A tweet that gareth shared So the fourth example there, um the the options for bookings where I can't actually read them without my glasses on But the fourth one was a little bit of a joke basically and the point with this is just sometimes it's okay to do something That's just a bit silly. I think as brands. I think it communicates this roominess and this healthiness that is is really positive Here's another example. I think it's healthy to do this and I think it's good Mailchimp are very good at return on fields aren't they If you've done email marketing, there's that moment where you're about to send a campaign and you're wondering if you've made a typo And the sweating finger is there and then you hit send and you get a high five It's awesome. What they're doing there is showing empathy that creates return on fields So there's a little picture of our team laughing I think laughter and fun does something really healthy for human beings generally but also specifically for marketing teams I don't think miserable teams produce content or anything that's very inspiring So I think Yeah, sort of striving for fun is a good thing Another thing that's good to strive for is creativity and marketing I think if we're focused on the bottom line constantly this can fall by the wayside So nourishing a team's creativity is really important And from that article it says that in the company creative thinking must occur on a spectrum between art and commerce I think that really sums it up When I joined woo, we were basically just sending transactional mails every night Again, we'd blast out of mail to our entire list the way we've used email has really changed over the last couple of years So who uses email in their marketing at the moment. It's pretty standard pretty staple. Yeah, we did it. So There are various ways you can do this We use mail chip integration So a few thoughts on email Send a newsletter So if you've launched a product or if you're thinking about launching a product You can start gathering email addresses and you can send people an email monthly I'm a big fan of newsletters if they're done, right? I think they work best when they include a bit of company culture a bit of product news Um, and again have this idea of adding value to your users It's not all about you and what you as a business want to be achieving This is a newsletter that a friend an ex colleague of mine started even before bryce had launched metric He was gathering email addresses bryce will tell you he's not a marketer, but he understands that it's important When he launched metric he began sending out this newsletter and I look forward to these updates a lot Bryce if you're listening, I hope you never stop sending them Something else that works Consistently well for us in the space of email is doing localized emails and geotargeting So this seems to be a bit of a theme that's actually been coming through in all of it in all of the talks is and being sensitive to who you're speaking to And being inclusive and I think doing geotargeted mails and doing localized content is something that fits into that realm So this is two examples when we launched square We did localized content even down to if you zoom right in the currency signs on that spreadsheet We're kind of adjusted We did the same for the uk and for the us And when we launched snap scan in south africa, we did the same thing So I highly encourage you if you're not already to experiment with geotargeting emails. They really convert and perform very well Something else that performs very well in the space of email is segmenting by subscriber activity So again, if you aren't doing this yet, I highly recommend you do Mail trim lets you segment by who's showing interest in your emails So you can create a list that's dynamic and fill it with people who are all four and five stars And you can send your four and five stars an extra mail per month Which is what we do and I can't share figures obviously, but this mail really does perform very well So I highly recommend experimenting with that if you haven't yet Another tip with email is to explore automations So this includes things like abandon cards, but you can also set up automations based on User activity So we recently set up a first purchase automation. That's also performing extremely well Basically whenever someone buys a product or creates an account on wecommerce.com They get added to an automation flow that sends them 12 really helpful emails to help them get onboarded into the world of Woo help them get set up And again, this is not all about us It's not all about selling and stuffing it with product links The goal here is to just help people get on boarded So yeah, I I recommend doing that if you're not trying automations to Automation is a hard word to say That's the first mail of the automation just to give you a little look in The fourth thing about email who's used ASAP hand wash before anybody. Yeah Okay, I absolutely love it if I go into a hotel or a restaurant that has ASAP It's like ding high quality signal And so I don't know what those things are for you, but I think we all have them And for me for emails high quality signals are design and copy So if you're going to take up some of someone's precious time life is short You may as well make it really great to look at and really nice to read So really nice to read is probably subjective But at least, you know making it grammatically correct And maybe throwing in some illiteration Doing something interesting with your sign off Um, so yeah, that's something to think about think about high quality signals in your emails And finally just remember um social media and emails are just these channels and chances to speak to them Speak to people. It's all about what you put in them I didn't like maths at school I was a non-fan. I yawned my way through stats Not a data person So I joined the world of woo and suddenly people began asking questions about how I'd done things I really did get by for about five years in my career without really having to worry too much about numbers I'd just say I was doing things by my guts and that seemed to be fine But at woo this didn't really fly and it continued to not fly at automatic so I've had to learn to love data and I'm pleased to report that I actually really do now. I find it extremely helpful So for our woo marketing team, we've put together a report We've got six metrics that we look at in terms of how our marketing stuff performs and we were guided by this It's important marketing needs to have these objectives It needs to have this framework and actually at the end of the day as marketers You want to know that what you're doing is contributing to your business objectives So it's helpful. It's healthy But at the same time I won't abandon my gut and my instincts So Seth Gordon I'm a big fan of Seth Gordon Says your instincts are better than you think they are Data is essential Data lets us incrementally improve just about anything The keyboard in front of you, the sink in the bathroom down the hall, the supply chain for the food you eat They were all improved a hundred thousand times over the years Data driven evolution towards efficiency. It's not enough We also need you to leap to leap without sufficient data to go with your humanity and your instincts and your hunches So I'm a believer in these things but equally and the believer in being led by data So starting to wrap things up Branding today thinking back to love marks brand equity how these things all weave together and our role as marketers My colleague Gary shared this article with me. I highly recommend you read it the title Whenever things the same it's the brand that makes the difference Now that's arguable But it resonates with me And the author of this article was the point he was making that as we Produce products as we get better and better at matching what competitors are doing as the table stakes are just having an excellent product It can be the brand that makes the difference. It can be those emotional connections that I was speaking about So brands in the past used to be built with big tv adverts Expensive budgets above the line messaging brands with these kind of far away things that you couldn't touch and talk to But these days things are very different, aren't they? Brands are more like very very high-res photographs made up of Thousands of tiny pixels or since we're in Paris perhaps they're more like pointless paintings with thousands of tiny brushstrokes Everything we do is marketers every piece of content we put out every tweet every email Every sign off every tiny part of ui is like one of these pixels or these tiny brushstrokes And my philosophy is that every single brush stroke comes So a definition of marketing based on what I've shared today Marketing is about reaching people Fetching converting and keeping them It delivers value above the noise and creates emotional connections It seeks to serve not be served. It seeks to include understand and delight It requires empathy flexibility and humility of its makers It thrives when powered by both instinct and data Marketing is an invitation So thank you for your time today Thank you, Marina. And this was uh, so interesting a whole new world for me. Thank you for sharing the knowledge with all of us um, I am quite sure there are some questions and um, we would like you to use the standing microphones Which are two of them in here in the front rows and two of them in the upper rows So if there are any questions, please go to the microphones and don't feel shy about it. You can ask almost everything Yeah, anything So please use the microphones if you want so So if there are yeah, there's a question over there. Thank you So my name is claudio from team isle. Hi my question to you is how did you integrate data? uh with your intuition You are talking about that and i'm interested to know at what data do you look no do you look now? Thank you So what data we look at so sorry So the I think if I understood the question is what data we look at to sort of guide our marketing To be honest, I had some problems to hear you so i'm just gonna answer that okay. That's fine. So we um at automatic We have an internal tool called tracks So we use tracks, which isn't very helpful to anybody else out here, but we also use google analytics It's very helpful the six metrics. Perhaps that's that's what you are asking about we look at um Revenue new revenue renewal revenue. We look at traffic We look at we commerce services adopters again something specific to our audience. We look at list growth um We look at one other thing So I hope that answers your question wherever you were out there Okay Uh, there's nobody to my friends. So um, I would like to ask you Um, is there maybe something or what what is maybe the biggest mistake that you have made while You have been uh involved into vu? Okay, let me think about that. I've made quite a few in case of choosing which one to share about um A mistake that I made it's actually another kind of inclusion one. So maybe I'll mention this um in south africa Okay, if I'm doing this That's like in south africa. We call that a mexican wave But that's not called a mexican wave in a lot of other parts of the world So I in an email that I sent out I said something like we're really excited about it being the holiday season. It's like a mexican wave ripping through You know Wu and we got a huge backlash from people pointing out that that was actually kind of quite offensive So that was a bit of a mistake. That was about a weekend to joining as well, which wasn't great So that was a mistake Thank you so much. We have another question here. Hi, marina. It's alec kaneer from folio vision I have a question which uh Is about a recent decision Who made where you decided you used to have this really cool policy that if I bought an extension I could renew it for support and updates for 50 off You've just changed this policy that all renewals, uh For supports and updates are at 100 and as a marketing person That's kind of a big Blow to the brand and to the marketing And so I'm really interested in how you're going to handle This difficult marketing challenge That's a great question. Thank you So I think who who would look forward to doing a pricing strategy change No one it's not an easy thing to do Um looking slightly beyond we're commerce and this is my answer. So I speak on behalf of myself Um, I think that it's healthy to renew products at 100 percent I think that for the wordpress ecosystem and all of us as business people trying to make businesses I think renewing products at 100 percent is Um, it's healthy if you back the support that you're given if you back the updates that are included I think that it's an okay ask and I think perhaps our mistake was not doing that from the beginning So that would be my answer The what I like about the 50% renewal is that it rewards loyal customers So I that is something that I Can you come closer to the microphone? I agree with the rewarding loyal customers So when people have bought into your product in your system, uh with this loyalty rewards even then it's a big change and so Whether one agrees or disagrees about the pricing I'm interested in as a marketing person How you handle the The reaction from your customers so that because it is a challenge And what what are what are you going to do to make it? To help people accept this in in a in a way that they still love your brand I mean, I I disagree with it, but I'm not interested in my disagreement with the The the issue I'm interested in how one deals with a huge challenge like that. Yeah So it is a challenge It's a business decision as marketers We need to think about how to handle that and pitch it correctly to our customers So something that we did do is we did is as a test initially we tested people's reactions And the response was surprisingly not not as outrageous as one would think it would be people were quite accepting We allocated resources specifically to discuss it with people. So people wrote in asking about the change We uh, I think people even actually hopped on a couple of Skype calls to talk to customers So it's something that we've taken seriously um We have an FAQ page about it where we say if you'd like to discuss with us get in touch and we're committed to doing that It's a decision we felt we had we had to make so we're sort of handling it together But I think being caring hearing people's concerns and looking at how we can continue to reward customer loyalty Perhaps just not in that way. I think that's the challenge that we face now. It's a great question though. Thank you for asking it Thank you, Marina. I think oh no, there's not a question. Is it is the last one? So please go on. Hi Uh, I'm Tomas from codable Um, I have a question about tracking different channels. So how do you decide? Uh on attribution which channel is performing and to what degree? That's a great question as well. So with um social media and the blog and A lot of what we look at is contribution to sales So you wouldn't be able to say conclusively, you know this blog post you can look at So we look at a blog post how much exactly that blog post brought in and then we look at also kind of contribution to sales overall because obviously there is this slight challenge of attribution so um We look at individual post performance and then we look at contribution to sales if that makes sense. Um so Yeah, I think I'm happy to talk to you more about it afterwards if you'd like Yeah, but um it is very important to think about attribution because a lot of the Platforms that we use for measuring things It actually you end up with inflated figures because everything wants to claim that it's the thing that contributed to the sales Which ends up and you can just do the math and it doesn't work. So Yeah, you need it's a great question attribution is something to think about Yes, marina. Thank you so much for this great talk. We all appreciate a big applause for marina