 Perfect. After that wonderful introduction, I will suck, but my panel will be amazing. And we will certainly screw up your agenda since I heard you were ahead. We'll blow that. Diane, I'm going to pick on you because you and I've done this the most together several years. You're known as the People's Doctor and you cover these issues every day. You cover it nationally and internationally. How do you approach what to do stories on? How do you figure out which of the stories to tell? And how can advocates best work with you to get their stories out? Because I think what in politics we see all the time is the most important, most interesting thing is third-party stories. What people, stories that touch your heart that move you and you cover these every day. So tell us a little bit about how you do that. So before trying to look for what is going to have the highest rating, I actually try to see what is the best for the audience. What is the best for the other patients, people that might have a situation like that, and how can they benefit of what I'm telling them, of the advices that we are providing. So sharing terrible stories in order to prevent it to happen again. And I feel that that as influencers, the way that we are called now, that's one thing that we have to do. Where's that line? It's an interesting line between journalist and influencer. Because you really are influencing people, policy changes. It's not traditional, I'm a recovered journalist I'm happy to say. And I decided I was way too partisan for that, so got out of it. But that's not a traditional journalist to grow. Where is that line and how do you see it? I think a journalist needs to do a lot of research and always give both sides of the story. And that's something very important that's real in media all the time. And we have a lack of it. Unfortunately, if we wanted to listen to exactly the same happening and you listen to it in Fox and in CNN, you will listen to something completely different. So in healthcare and in health news, we need to be absolutely no biased. And that we have to tell the facts exactly how they are. And we have to open the microphone to every part. And I think what a journalist needs to do is that. And in traditional media, fortunately, we have this credibility that sometimes many new influencers do not have. That background and all that thing that they have to do the research to present the facts to the audience. That makes total sense. Maribi, you've been on both sides of this now. Hard breakingly, you have a long career as a journalist and you're on the other side. You decided to tell your story. I was spending time online looking at the incredible outpouring of people who that story struck. Did you approach that as a parent? Did you approach that as a grieving mother? Did you put your journalistic hat on? All of them and how did you decide to make that decision? Well, the first thing to say is that I'm obviously not a health journalist. I don't have that experience. I do something else at The Guardian, I edit the magazine. And when Martha died, I knew immediately I would write about it. Like I'm telling you within seconds, I thought I will write about this and I will tell people what happened because I knew what happened. I'd been there, I'd witnessed it and it felt like the only power that I had. And I have to say it felt like a privilege to be in that situation to think, I can actually tell this story and it's happened to other people. And even in explaining it to my friends, I would kind of go over and over what happened. But even they I think sometimes I think at first they might even have thought, well that's not, I'm sure the doctors did do right. But I needed to tell the story. I needed to do it and I was lucky to be able to do it. And I thought about it for a year alongside my husband, who's also a journalist. I would literally walk along the street crying, thinking about what I was going to say, picking up my phone, writing things in it. And you know at the same time we were approaching the series incident report, I wanted every fact, every fact and I wanted it to be exactly right, no complaints possible. So the series incident report was important to that and we asked question after question after question so that we had those answers and that we could write about it in an honest way. I'd also say that as a reader my whole life I've seen these stories in the news and I would say that I've read them in that sort of shock where all this terrible thing happened to someone else. But that'll never happen to me. And you know your eyes of glaze over you see it in the news or this kid died and you know you don't really always fully engage with it and I thought I really, really want people to engage with this. And that's what I spent a lot of time doing is thinking how am I going to get people to read this and understand what's happened. I want to sneak in stuff about how amazing Martha is. But right at the top I deliberately said I'm going to tell you stuff that will help you navigate healthcare and might even save your life. And I did that on purpose because I thought this is going to be 3000 words and I want you to keep going to the end and right at the end I'm going to tell you something that you need to know. And it was extremely well read and The Guardian nearly three million people read it over the first weekend. And you know the metrics you can see that they can read it mostly to the end. And I think that that was why because I was trying to say this happened to me but by the way you're going to have somebody in hospital at some point and I'm going to tell you some information and you know I was saying to people what I wish I'd done which is I mean I did look things up on the internet but really look things up on the internet. You know get a second opinion get a third opinion if you're in doubt scream the war down these that these are the things which I was sort of wanting to communicate. And I also wanted to do something and I think this is another reason why the piece was very well read because it wasn't just that it was a shocking story although it is a shocking story. And this is this is the difficult thing to say in a room full of doctors which is that I was trying to write something which changed the conversation in the media about how we talk about doctors and certainly in the UK and possibly around the world. I feel that there's a kind of extreme to it. There's like heroes and we just come out of Covid and I had we'd had two years of like heroes heroes heroes heroes heroes or Shipman Harold Shipman being you know the notorious serial killer doctor and there's nothing in between that you know in the conversation and I wanted to say doctors are human and they make mistakes and they and they're also human in the sense that sometimes they can be complacent and arrogant and those were factors in Martha's death you know as the serious incident report at the hospital and so I was trying to open up the conversation about how we talk about doctors as well as help people navigate the health system as well as tell people what happened to Martha. You've now made the transition you're now an advocate. You're trying to pass Martha's law you're working to do things like this which are incredibly hard very different from what you've done in your day job. How difficult was that evolution? Have you made peace with it? I've not made peace with it you know this is it's not always easy to go you know you've just asked me would I go on Mexican TV and talk about it and actually it takes a lot out of you to keep going over the story again and again sometimes I worry is this good for me you know is it good for my grief which is still very much ongoing. I you know it's it's really hard I want I want to do it to help others I also don't want you know I want I don't want Martha's life to be in vain I don't want it to be nothing but it it's hard and it's it's frustrating you know you you meet people in in healthcare and they say you know yes this is really important this is really important but then you know it's also kicked into the to the long grass because there are the more important things for you know this is talking about Martha's Martha's rule to spend money on so you know and I do I do have a full-time job and and I am you know there was a point when I thought I would never go back to work and do my job after Martha died but I do and I I appreciate it and I appreciate it in some ways that it is nothing to do with this because sometimes I need to take my mind off it and going to work and doing other types of journalism is important to me because it's a distraction so this is not my full-time life and I'm not sure I want to be but I but it is important to obviously share the stories I'm just being honest about no this how you know how hard it is and I know there are other parents here to just keep sort of going over and over it again have you had positive reception from both administrators but more importantly politicians and well that's an interesting question so after I wrote the piece I I got a really extraordinary reaction from a lot of people some people in this room a lot of doctors who said you know I correctly identified the problems and processes and the hierarchy and all the all the different you know the arrogance all the things that can contribute to a death and that was very that was very rewarding and then separately to that and this is important for me to mention because I think that there's it's very revealing there's a Reddit thread about by junior doctors about the piece which is very long and has some very revealing comments on it I actually just wanted to read some of them because I think this is part of the problem and it's the sort of truth is so this is the patient's degree of entitlement and inability to accept mistakes is just simply unsustainable wholly incorrect and an enormous burden here's another one this is why I don't work in pediatrics parents are awful and sad for the parents but people die and that's life and there was another one which went on to say you know if they'd asked for this that and the other if they'd specifically asked whether intensive care was needed that might have worked thing is I highly doubt most members of the public would be able to articulate on that level as my mic on but the reason I'm reading that is because that has to be a part of the conversation you know there's this hidden world where people are saying these things and it's wonderful that some people here come up to me and say you know we're changing this is happening new generation but these are junior doctors this is this is a young group of people who read that piece which is based on you know which the hospital itself wouldn't argue with is based on the serious instant report there's been an external report you know all of it is factually accurate as a journalist I made sure that's the case and to have that kind of reaction exist is a real problem in healthcare that kind of education making sure people understand that is why this is the one thing I do every year because I think this panel every year is a time to have all of you tell your stories and how you think about these things and I think that kind of education is why I believe so deeply in the patient safety movement making sure across the entire spectrum I love someone this morning said from the caregiver all the way to the top to the president the hospital everyone needs to know this stuff it has to be all the way around and I know it's incredibly difficult to tell your story but that's why we do this beforehand we were about to go up you said I have some things to say no I've said them now okay good all right I just want to make sure that with that that is that is you know my husband I talk about doing another piece and and and and sort of the reaction is kind of the interesting part of it not just the sort of positive reaction but the negative reaction is worth talking about as well yeah I agree we'll come back to this David I want to pick on you for a second because you're both a doctor of neuroscience and a writer who now tries to explain these complex topics you know how do you view both sides of that how do you straddle that and how do you find and tell these stories well I think and this came up lots of many times yesterday I think one of the most important things of trying to convey lots of patient safety stories is just having those patient groups and those patient advocates and those incredibly powerful stories because you know let's take something like implementation science you know that's one of the most important topics in patient safety you know we get these incredible new treatments which come through we kind of go through and we sort of develop lots of rigorous best best practices but how do we actually incorporate that into healthcare systems and as we all know that can take years decades and sometimes it never happens but if as a journalist I'm trying to write a story about implementation science I mean it's probably going to be hard to get that past my editor because it comes across as a fairly dry topic you know how do you write that in an engaging way which really will make someone want to read likes of a thousand fifteen hundred two thousand words on that topic and I think if you if you actually have a tangibly example if you can say this is why you know we need this because when it failed this particular mistake was made or even like so on on the other hand you know like so by putting this best practice into place this positive event might have happened this person's life was saved in this instance suddenly that makes that story really come to life and just for the reader it really sort of illustrates why these things are important so I think for me likes of as a journalist that's you know a lot of the time that's what I look for you know likes of a patient safety is incredibly broad likes a diverse likes a topic but you know you really need those kind of specific tangible examples those specific human stories I mean I actually found it likes of really interesting likes yesterday and likes one of the panels where I think it was Liam Dollison who said that you know likes of if there's say one particular thing which we could achieve so for example eradicating sepsis you know that would really drive momentum and it's just the same likes of in the media I think the media needs you know a kind of a cause likes to get behind you know patient safety just as a topic is is so so broad but you need to be able to kind of focus on very specific examples of this and and highlight this is a particular problem here this is a solution this is a change we can drive let's get really nitty gritty for a second because I think it'd be interesting to people in the room how do you find your ideas do advocates come to you do you find them like how does that work and and if you're giving advice to advocates to tell their story what would your advice be honestly I mean stories can come from all sorts of places it can be just speaking with people at summits and conferences like this one it can be sometimes people reaching out to me sometimes I'll see a twitter thread or a reddit thread and I'd be like that is something really important I need to try and like investigate that I mean this is actually why patient groups can make such a massive difference I mean I'll just give the example of a story which I wrote earlier this year for the telegraph I did like a long read for them about benzodiazepines and all over the world likes we have this problem where these incredibly addictive drugs people end up on them for likes of years decades and there's whole likes of facebook groups there's one called beating benzos which is full of thousands and thousands of stories of people who've been taking these medications and have ended up like developing likes of essentially long-term brain damage over the course of like years or likes of decades but in the whole scientific community this isn't studied because you know in the UK likes of you're not able you shouldn't be able to take benzos for more than 28 days and so no one actually studies what happens if you're on like her benzodiazepine for 20 years and what that actually does to the brain so as a journalist you have to kind of then just go to the patient stories and that just sheer mountain of anecdotal evidence it shows that's a problem here and this is a story we need to cover and I wouldn't have written this really if I hadn't happened to discover this amazing facebook group which is just full of always very very powerful facebook stories and yeah it led me to kind of delve deep into this and I found that this has been like a massive systemic problem in the UK which had been highlighted repeatedly since like the late 70s early 80s and there hasn't really been like any interventions either put for by the medical community or you know regulators and likes of policymakers to try and likes to tackle it and say you know I think often it's through those patient groups that these things actually come to life and I'm I always do say to patients I mean please do come to me I'm really interested in hearing like see your stories and where you're coming from because ultimately that's what I need to be able to write these things. You and Maripy both referenced a couple things we just did research on how where journalists get their information and Reddit was one of them that I wouldn't have expected Twitter's obviously the predominant one that most people may not be on the Facebook is another one it really is interesting where you find your stories and I think helpful to everyone as they go through this. Dr. Ramsey had a question that he put here that I think super smart and I wanted to ask you is patient safety newsworthy only when it's a tragedy or is it newsworthy at other times too? That's a very good question I think it tends to you know obviously I'm a freelancer I work for the telegraph but also like a lot of other news organizations and news organizations everyone obsessively monitors their metrics you know even publicly funded likes of organizations like the BBC they will only really commission a story if they can be fairly certain that it's going to get those hundreds of thousands of reads which is why you tend to get certain topics coming up likes of a gain and a gain and likes of well other topics never really appear it's entirely due to likes of the hits and I think in some ways likes of you know the sad truth of that is it kind of almost takes a tragedy to make the news because people know that it you know it will point to be it will pull on heartstrings people will actually read that I mean I do think that is very much likes of a role for the positive stories for where things have actually likes of you know gone well and how we can like to use that as an example for for change like around the world I mean the Guardian did like sort of a wonderful project like so the few years ago called the upside where they actually just highlighted something amazing across the world of like science medicine likes of technology likes of which you know was making a positive difference so I think those stories there is very much like a place of them but I do think in in some ways it's it is an unfortunate reflection of likes of the news world where you know it does tend to be a negative stories but at the same time it is those negative stories which actually really prompt people to stand up say we need to make a difference and which is you know which is why we're all here thank that's right I'm a resident of the best city in San Francisco in California called San Francisco and I was excited about Jessica because every night I've watched her for years and she's explained all these things to everyone on NBC and around the Bay Area you got to cover the biggest health crisis of our generation you got to tell all these stories what did you learn during all that and how did how did that change the way you cover health care in terms of covid you know covid was such a real-time global exercise for all of us on every single level whether you were a doctor or a journalist I mean I remember when we were just starting to talk about some something that was happening on the other side of the world and and then to see it start occurring in the Bay Area when we had that first cruise ship come in with all those passengers which is really when we first started to realize what the magnitude of what this was going to be for all of us and it required such a shift and such an ability for us to be able to temper how we covered something that had such a global and potentially deadly impact on so many people without raising the level of hysteria and trying to kind of mitigate that this is the knowledge that we know and this is what we don't know and I think that really required of journalists for us to be very open with the fact that there were a lot of things that we didn't really understand and we had to ask a lot of questions as we were also changing the dynamic of our newsrooms because we were being put in covid lockdowns we were put we were being put in situations where you know we weren't I know that I had to I had to drive with a letter that allowed me to be on the freeway because I still had to go to work and those the only way if we were stopped we were in that one Gavin Newsom closed down the state it changed the dynamic and the level of you know fear was so overwhelming for everyone and that I think did open the door for us as journalists those of us like I've covered medical stories in the past but now the entire newsroom had to know how to cover a medical story had to understand what the doctors were talking about you know the the different protocol so that was uh I think that was a a really changing point in newsrooms of having to be more connected to the medical community and to be able to discuss it in a way that was both educational both realistic investigative and also to be able to highlight some of the good things that were happening too so that we could offer some beacon of light in a moment that was probably one of the darkest moments we've had in a really long time since 9 11 probably also come it was one of those where we were collectively looking at it and being frightened you know you had one other element you didn't talk about which is politics because in the middle of this yes very honestly you didn't know everything we were learning things information was changing what the CDC was changing where's that line where how did you deal with a line between misinformation politics and just trying to be a journalist right and that was a really difficult situation too because you did have a political element you know we had a political element in 9 11 as well though but here all of a sudden we had this you know we had Dr. Fauci you know who became so famous and became a household name for everyone but there was we were learning about the pandemic and learning about COVID and so yes the problem is we had to keep couching every single day saying this is what we know right now but this could change right and it did change on a day to day basis and then there was a political element to it that really I will say I'll be honest it undermined the very job that we were trying to do and then sites like I'll tick tock or you're talking about social media social media sites that were rampant with misinformation really contributed to the difficulty of the job and it was you know being out in the public when we were and being told that we were given we were giving fake news about this pandemic anywhere we went when I'm not a healthcare professional I mean I may have been a medical correspondent but I'm not a doctor so we're trying to give you the best information that we can based on the doctors that are giving us information but the doctors didn't really even know at that point all the information about it so it was a difficult landscape to navigate and I think all those you know misinformation about vaccinations and people being put in camps and I mean some of the stuff was just so wacky they were rounding up people they were going to take your children I mean this is what we dealt with on a daily basis with people calling it and saying oh you know they're rounding up children don't put them on a school bus because they're going to take them and put them in a camp and you're thinking what I mean come on where does this come from I call those I call those voters for the other side right well it depends let me ask you let me ask you one more question because you do cover healthcare a bunch how do you find your story same question I asked David and do people come to you if you had advice to give to people out there that want to tell their story what would your advice be so my station has one of the largest investigative units in the country and we do do a lot of medical stories and a lot of them are you know that stories that are database that we get either from calling information from the public health department or from CMS but the investigative piece that I did which is the reason that actually I worked with Dr. Ramsey on was one that came to me through a tragic loss and the pettersons are here of a family in the Bay Area who Melissa Petterson is actually the patient story in the next panel and it was I was approached by Melissa who called me not long after her son died her daughter went in for a kidney transplant at UCSF and her son was the donor and they went in it went through all the protocol her son was a healthy 28 year old went through the protocol they went in they had a successful transplant at October 23rd of 2015 successful transplant and within 14 hours the donor was dead and that was just because of us and it is kudos to you for being able to stand here and be on this panel because having gone through this with Melissa and her family and having them have to air and discuss in detail the 14 hours and with her son died and for Melissa's daughter Kelly to be the recipient and know that she's alive because her and her brother died is an agony that that family had to relive with me during a course of a two-year investigation and if because of what they did and they were able to speak and just quickly what happened at the hospitals they ended up overdosing onters when they changed his medication from fentanyl to delotted they didn't they made a mistake and prescribed him 400 percent dosage more and all the what should have been the steps in between to mitigate that were overlooked his vitals weren't checked he was vomiting nobody checked it there were 30 missteps in the car in 14 hours and it was Melissa who realized her son wasn't breathing even though there was a nurse in the room so there's this whole system failure that happened but Melissa and her family came forward to talk about this and and in the in the situation of transparency even after onters was taken off life support the hospital went into its adverse reaction mode which i'd really have to say if there's journalists and as someone who communicates at maryp you will understand this as well very clearly adverse when we say bad outcome or adverse you know adverse reaction or or a bad outcome i know it's the lexicon of doctors but the truth is the translations for that is someone died and a family is shattered yes and she can poor outcome and she can't and she can't go on with her life i i just talked to you before we came out here and i said the story's agonizing and you said to me the agony continues unless a pettersons agony continues kelly pettersons agony continues we need to call it what it is which is a death yeah and a destruction of a family and um so onters was not on continuous uh monitoring and dr ramsey we talked to dr ramsey for our series that we did you know we went over thousands and thousands of medical records and page and pages and everything and we had to turn to dr ramsey because we could not get although off the record we had 10 doctors look at the records and say yeah they overdosed and they made this mistake they made the mistake we couldn't get a doctor to step forward on camera and say it and i think that's the transparency issue if we're going to move forward in this we just have to be able to be transparent and melissa petterson which you will hear later said something very powerful she said if they just would have told me they made a mistake from the beginning and apologized i wouldn't have sued them what i wanted was for them to admit that they made a mistake what they kept saying is oh he had a genetic heart flaw he had this he had that he didn't have any of those things we looked at his autopsy we went through all of his reports so i think there's a i think that's important for and i think something that mario was trying to say is they made the mistake yes to her as human but i think one of the things she wanted is for them to be able to come forward and say yeah we made a mistake and we have to fix it and we will fix it and i think that's a lot of what your point in that story was is that you just want accountability and then rectify you know a way to rectify it so the number one question asked online right now is a question that you were just talking about which is do you as journalists get access to c-suite people in healthcare facilities or is there just a wall once you start reporting on this with in our case there was a wall we there was a complete wall once we started um obviously as investigative journalist we spent a lot of time investigating without you knowing um and once we had already gone through all the facts and we had really assembled the story and we knew that every detail in our story had been fact checked and multi fact checked and multi fact checked then we went to the hospital and it was a wall it was a wall for melissa when her son died when she the day after she came back from the hospital she called the hospital and asked for his medical records and she got six pages six pages it took her three years to get the 40 000 plus pages of medical records and then it took us two years to go through those medical records and ask for supplemental records and get more information to be able to put our investigation so it we do we do hit a wall and then it's how do we and it was because of the patient safety movement at dr ramsey that we were able also to be able to really understand the medical records in a way um that allowed us to tell the story properly so because we have a couple brits on the panel um i want to do a little harry potter first uh we're going to wave our magic wand and and say one thing that you if you could change anything about the health care system what would you change and i'll start um you know i now because the technology feels safer in my car than i do in the hospital and the thing i would change is i'd have non-invasive monitors for every patient so you know vital signs the entire time in case something were to happen which no one's expecting that's my and you know that's changed in 10 years when i ran the campaign to pass obama care we didn't even know that was a thing we probably would have tried to deal with that too that's my harry potter magic wand diane do you have one i totally do agree with you regarding technology but i think that it's also very important to empower patients to make sure that they understand the treatment that is given to them empower them to ask questions because i as i heard uh from i believe it's uh janica who was saying that you want to be liked by your health care providers so you don't want to bother them but it's important to to ask and make sure and we as journalists and people who can talk to the to the people tell them ask raise your hand so i think that's also very important you should do everyone should do what i do which is before i go to the hospital for me or my family i call joe keonnie which is very helpful and joe walks and joe walks get yourself yeah what to do and now patient safety has an app that they have that that says exactly that i literally give to my family to say here the questions to ask here the things you need to know because you know merpy you wrote about this you know people just tell you the doctor's right just you know don't ask questions it'll be okay or what's your i'm sure you have several harry potter wands here i could i could go on but i would say probably more honesty in all aspects of health care both when you're there as a patient equality being talked to like you're on their level um and then afterwards if something goes wrong the honesty you know that duty of candor has been introduced in the uk a law which obliges hospitals to tell the truth they still don't by the way you know that they still can be very obstructive but isn't it a problem that we needed a law passed to just get honest information after something goes wrong that's and that it's still not followed you know people contact me all the time now and say this is what happened to me and i'm not getting any any you know information so yeah honesty both in the setting honesty and equality between patients and health care providers doesn't seem like too much to ask for does it doesn't know you shouldn't need a magic wand for honesty david i think one of the things i would change so for the pharmaceutical industry in the uk there's a database called disclosure uk and they have to basically disclose all possible likes of conflicts of interest and lots of other things and that makes it a lot easier for journalists to hold pharma companies to account and i think in many ways there's a great need for something similar in health care really where you know if there was like a database where hospitals had to like to declare you know likes of adverse incidents medical errors things like that that again would make it a lot easier for journalists to delve into these stories identify like so where harm is happening and it will make it much easier to draw attention to like many of these things that's a great idea jessica i would say um two things one um i think journalists and doctors share something um that we often don't talk about as a journalist is like when you're in that um newsroom and you're dealing with so many negative things that happen in the world we tend and this is the truth we we tend to um create an environment we do this in newsrooms where we protect ourselves from the overwhelming nature of what we're talking about all the time by being flippant disconnected and you know this from being in a newsroom right we we i mean in a newsroom you will hear things that sound very crass sometimes and you're talking about people's lives right and i always try to remind you know younger journalists that are coming up that i always remind them every story you do is actually about someone's life so you have to maintain that humanity all the time and always look at every person that you're interviewing is someone who is going through something horrible and i think that's what mario is talking about is you as a doctor sometimes you're you're harried you're running around you've got 15 patients nurses the the bells are ringing you got to remember you're still talking about someone's life and someone's family and someone's mother someone's husband right and i think so bringing that humanity that prism and always looking at it through that prism would be a really important thing for all of us to do both as journalists and as doctors and anyone in the medical profession and then on a practical level technological uh technology level what i've learned is that continuous pulse oximeter i think that is the key you know anders peterson would be alive today if he had that and and awareness is so important because i recently i went to get a medical procedure done and the first thing i walked in the door and i was like where is my pulse oximeter i'd like it now and people laugh but no no it is the truth right and they were like we don't give it to you for this i'm like i'm demanding it i want it now or i'm not having the procedure and you know they kind of rolled their eyes at me it was like there is the crazy lady who wants the pulse oximeter you know i want to go to the dermatologist and i want to get a pulse oximeter do you do that for botox let me know okay i mean uh but i just think that's your point is we have to be our own advocates as well and as families we have to be our own advocates and this is this is the lesson i've learned um we have one minute left mary v i want to end with you so you're talking about writing a second piece what would that piece be and and what's what's the future here um well as i said it's partly about it would partly be about the reaction to the first piece uh it it's also about grief you know um actually one thing i would say is that um when you said about the family going over it for you at the time when i wrote that first piece people were saying to me it must have been really hard to dredge that up all over again and i would say i wasn't dredging it up at that point because i was living it every single night in bed i was thinking about it there was no dredging it was right there and you know if another sort of eight months on it's less present but but in some ways telling the story becomes a kind of um it's a helpful part of the process for patients actually it's it it helps to know that other people can understand and um understand what you've gone through so um yeah and it's partly about martha's rule and uh and it's it's partly about uh the reaction and um it's partly about grief about losing a child and and you know how awful that is dad's story is why we all do this that stories why all these journalists on the panel are so important i think you all can agree with me this has been an amazing panel thank you very very much