 Welcome. Good afternoon for those in Hawaii. Good evening for those on the West Coast or on the continent and whatever your time zone may be. Thanks so much for coming to join us at Think Tech Hawaii. Time for responsible change. And we have the extreme good fortune today of having with us four truly exceptional women leaders, respected and appreciated for all that they contribute, both professionally and personally. And in no particular order, I'll start with Louise Ying, one of our most respected attorneys and an advocate for women's rights here for many years. Very successfully, one of the progenitors and creators and founders of the Hawaii Women's Legal Foundation and many of the activities that it has brought to help serve the community and many others. Sandra Sims, retired judge, author, community service leader and just all around really good person and friend as well. Tina Patterson over on the other coast in Germantown, New Jersey, mediator, arbitrator, business and strategy coach and another leader that we look up to and forward to hearing from. And Rebecca Radler, long a leader in the insurance industry and now in conflict resolution, as a mediator, as an arbitrator. All of these leaders have considerable experience in negotiating under extremely difficult and adverse circumstances, including gender and other biases. So starting with that, hey, I'll ask each of you to recall a situation in which you encountered gender or other bias or combined biases. And you had to figure out ways to deal with it effectively. Rebecca, you want to start us off? I will. As you were saying that, I was thinking about my 30-year career in insurance really for actively 25 years. Back 30 years ago, there weren't very many people in the commercial insurance space that looked like me. And there were many times when I was microaggressed. We've put a term on it and there are three classifications of microaggressions. One being microassaults and microinsults and microinvalidations. And there were probably microinsults almost daily because what we know now is that we all have implicit bias, but those biases enable behaviors. And so bias in and of itself is not bad, but the behaviors that come from those biases are what we see and what we're hearing about now. We're having conversations now very openly about these microaggressions and different behaviors that affect the advancement or lack of advancement for women and people of color. And there were, I mean, maybe somebody would touch my hair without, that's a microassault, somebody actually touches my hair without permission, really usually kind of innocently out of curiosity maybe. And I was always gracious, you know, back coming up through my career. But now it's more acceptable to actually say, you know, if you would ask me, I would have said yes. If you'd ask me if you could touch my hair, I would have said yes. And, you know, when people do things unintentionally, when they offend you unintentionally, you don't want to hurt them back. That's not the point. You really are trying to, you would prefer to teach usually. And so, you know, now though, we're having these conversations about different things that have happened in the careers of women. And I'll say women and people of color, but people in other categories that are underserved or seem to be, seem to feel invisible still, then, you know, these conversations can be had and information can be brought to the forefront so that everybody can consider how to address these behaviors and everybody can live equitably. So how do you distinguish between, when you encounter that, between an inadvertent manifestation of what hopefully is increasingly becoming unacceptable bias in treatment? And is something that's more harmful, more disrespectful, more divisive than that? I can recall an incident that I think will reflect some of that, Chuck. This was doing my time on the bench and I was presiding over, you know, I'm a criminal court judge at this point, I'm presiding over a criminal proceeding. And the attorneys were doing jury selection and the defendant was not, was not African American. In fact, no one, none of the parties, the attorneys, prosecutor, defense or any of those. And we're doing jury selection. And at one point in the jury selection process, you know, we ask people if they have particular reasons why they may have a, you know, some personal reason why they can't participate. And I would usually hold those sessions at the bench to not have people have to say out loud something that was sensitive or personal. So we, this, this gentleman came asked to come to the bench to state his reasons. And this is what you were talking about. And he says he wanted to be excused from the jury in this case because he did not like black people. Now, keep in mind, I'm the only black person there. And he was emboldened enough to actually say that to the judge presiding over the case. I don't like black people. And I said, that's got nothing to do with this case. So that's not a reason to be excused. So I told him you could sit back down and he remained there for the rest of the day. And when he was called into the, he actually did get called, you know, into the, into the area. And the attorneys didn't even ask him any questions. While he was in the jury box, they were, he didn't even address anything to him. They just asked that he be, you know, that he just be bumped and he was. But it was, it was glaring to me first off in that the person felt emboldened enough to just say to the only black woman in the room, who happens to be the judge that I just don't like black people. And I just, you know, that's not an issue in this case. Sorry, sit down. But I think, and, and, and of course, at that point, I'm having the, you know, sort of the judicial shield of not getting, you know, confronted with a lot of other things. But that just sort of, I just, you know, some people just, yeah, you're just so emboldened. And I think we've seen way more of that in the last, you know, in the last four or five years where people are just bold and emblazoned with their, you know, overt expressions of racism. Yeah, that, that was, that was the first experience that came to my mind. And to sort of address that sort of subtle, actually wasn't subtle, but. And that's an important point we've seen and we're still seeing it encouraged at the leadership level. Tina, Louise, your experiences, your insights. Louise, you're muted. No. Oh, so it's Tina. Anyway, yeah, I was just thinking about that. And I would say, as a lawyer, I don't, maybe I've suppressed it. I don't remember any overt racism or sexism. Maybe, you know, maybe there's sort of micro aggressions in the sense of, I would say the most common thing when I was a young lawyer was being mistaken for a secretary or a paralegal. And yeah, yeah, I'm sure everybody has had that experience. And you kind of let it roll off your back, but you roll your eyes and you just think, oh my God. And I think it has the, you know, sort of the unconscious effect of sort of reinforcing that idea that of imposter syndrome, you know, I don't quite feel like I belong. And I would say that a lot of, maybe the experience of a woman and a young lawyer when I was coming out is that, you know, there are growing numbers of women, but still not a whole lot. And so oftentimes you'd be in a conference or a meeting and it would mostly be men and mostly white men. And, you know, I think it was just that feeling of not quite feeling like you belong. That was, you know, more of the sense. And I also would say that when you say combination, the thing I remember too was just being a young lawyer. And young lawyers just, you know, seeming to have the bully me sign. So it's hard to separate out, you know, women, short-agent and just being a young lawyer. I have to laugh because I, you know, just one of the lawyers that I remember of just really dreading every time I had to deal with him as a young lawyer because he, you know, was clearly far more experienced and would make it clear he was is that I just got a Facebook friend request from him those decades later. I know who you're talking about. Oh, and even the, even the initial CD, right? So Tina, your experiences, your perspective. Oh, goodness. Chuck, that's a very, that's a very interesting question. I'm going to share my experience as an arbitrator because I think it ties to the second part of your question, which is how you handle it. Early on in my career, I had explored getting involved in construction arbitration, and I attended a training at an institution for a week. And I realized I was the only woman in the class and I was the only person of color in the class. And we were placed in cohorts of eight to 10 people. And my cohort and I were seated at the lunch, lunch table, and gentlemen seated next to me said proudly and loudly, I don't know any women in construction arbitration, except for secretaries. And the silence at the table was deafening. And I continued eating, I could see everyone else suddenly look like they had a bad case of heartburn. And I just looked at them, I said, Well, that's about to change. And I continued eating. And much like you, Louise, you know, there was a part of me that wanted to roll my eyes and say, really, you're actually saying this at the table. But I continued on with the class. The word got around about his comment, not from me, but from some of my other male colleagues who would come to this side and tell me, you know, I'm so sorry you said that. And I thought, well, you could have said something at the table, but you didn't. You know, I paid for this class just like everyone else. And I'm going to persevere. A long story short, at the end of the class, the gentleman came back to me and apologized. He said, you know, I was wrong. I think you will do well in this sector. If there's anything I can do to help you, please let me know. And this again is where looking back now, had there nothing more than being dignified, I thanked him. And I thought to myself, never. I'm not certain who else you've said this to or done this to, but I'm not going to, I can't take you up on that offer. I don't know if, you know, the hand that you're extending to me also has a snake in it. So to your question, part of it is being as dignified as you can be, exercising discernment. Would it have been the best place for me to have a meltdown? Absolutely not. My career was at stake. And also for me, because I was mid-career in doing this, and I had come from information technology background, it wasn't my first time being in a male dominated environment, but it was the first time someone was bold enough to actually make the statement to me at the table. And I thought, wow, you really, you really feel comfortable. And again, other people at the table were deadly silent. You know, they didn't know exactly what to say, but the words were out there and couldn't be taken back. I think you make an incredible point, Tina, in that women have to learn how to get what you came for. Sometimes, you know, you mentioned it wasn't the place or the time to break down. What good would that do? What you do is I like being underestimated. I've spent my entire career around, you know, in industries where it was mostly white males. And my decision is to be emotionally intelligent, just like you were, and to get what I came for. Nobody is going to scare me away. I've done the work. Do I sometimes have to gear up when I'm going into a room? Absolutely, Louise, to your point. Sometimes people actively try to make you feel as if you don't belong, but I know that I belong in this space. And you just you do have to know what you bring to the table. You have to know who you are. And when your credentials are or your hurt, nervous, and you are called into question, you have to make a decision. And my decision is that I'm going to get what I came for. That's an excellent point. Go ahead, Sandra. Sorry. I like that approach that, you know, you're you're I like that approach, Rebecca. Yes. Yes, we do belong in that space. And I think that's a that that sense of of that sense of sometimes getting that feeling that you don't belong. I think it's a common thing from women that we're going where it's particularly in these professions that are predominant, you know, that are male dominated. But again, there is we would not not any of us would have come into these places without the preparation, without the determination to proceed. And so, yes, we hear those things, we see those things, those things happen. But I think each of us in our time, we're in different generations as well. But we each dealt with that. No, that's what we had to deal with. And we moved on. I recall a funny instance, when I first started working at the Corporation Council's office here in Honolulu. Now, and I was, you know, in the in the way it set up your assigned to different departments as the attorney for that particular department. And I remember the first time I was called into to a meeting with the building department, this is like the, you know, the city's engineers who asked for someone from Corporation Council's office to come. And I'm thinking, you know, you'll walk into this room. And but these aren't all all white guys, but they're, you know, Japanese and it's, Hawaii is different. But so it's an they're all men. Yeah, it's, it's all men. I walk in, and I'm thinking, Oh, boy, am I am I is someone going to go and make certain that she knows what she's talking about. And I remember her moral that he since passed away. He looked at me and he says, Are you from Corporate Council? I like, yes. He's like, All right, here, this is the problem. You know, so it's like the whole like, Oh, okay, I don't have to prove who I am or establish or be in that place of having to establish and confirm that I am here and I belong here. It's like, they had a problem. As far as they were concerned, we don't really care what you look like. Please, we have a problem. And of course, you guys know, working with the cities, there are often many, many problems. And so they're really more concerned about problem solving that what you look like. But that's kind of a comical one. But what you folks have all done is exhibited two things, one, a level of awareness, and the ability to pick up on those biases and those behaviors and attitudes in ways that gave you back the choice as to how you decided to respond or react. And you chose to respond to react in a way that showed exactly what you just said, which is that you belong there and you know it. And you're going to conduct yourself in a way that manifests both of those things. So now that we're seeing women in leadership, hopefully increasingly in political leadership in C-suite business leadership in academic leadership, we have 28 Black women law school deans for the first time in history. What does it take to get there? Lives like you, Chuck. Chuck, you are a person who will speak up in situations where the average person would be uncomfortable in speaking up. You're willing to be uncomfortable for the good of all. And it's going to take that. When Sandra was talking, I thought it's worse when women try to make you feel like you don't belong. Because we've been kind of talking about being in spaces where men are the dominant culture. And there are also situations where women will try to make you feel as if you don't belong. And that's even worse. And so it takes us to stick together and stand together and do good work. I'm a builder. And so everybody on this program knows I'm a builder. And so the way I, the attitude that I take is to multiply and not divide. And so when you find other people who feel that way and have that philosophy and understand that there's enough for everybody, then we can all win together. Yeah, I think it takes allies and sisters. I mean, Chuck, allies like you, well, you know, and regardless of race, gender and the like, but people who are willing to support other people. And then although you credited me kindly for being a founder of Hawaii Women Lawyers, I was not, but I was an early member. And I think just having that sisterhood of lawyers, some slightly senior than me and others along the way was just very empowering and a great support too. That's probably how I met Sam. I'm sure that's how I met Sandra. Yeah, it is to Hawaii Women Lawyers. That is who we first met. I remember, yeah, with Jerry and... Yes, the founders. Yeah, people who were the founders. Sherry Broder and Ray St. Jude. Yes, yes. Oh my goodness. We go back a long time. Yeah. And I think also just being emotionally intelligent, as was it Rebecca or Tina who mentioned that. I think back and, you know, what you say about women sort of sometimes being our most, I guess, daunting foes, I remember being as a fairly young attorney in Japan and, you know, mostly dealing with men and male attorneys there. There was one woman on the other side and everybody considered her a dragon lady. And I was afraid of her too, but then I'm thinking, you know, just to be empathetic. I mean, she probably had to claw her way to the top. No wonder she had to be mean. You know, maybe in a different age, we might have been able to build a more of a bridge. Yeah. And you hit on it exactly. And I'd be the first to acknowledge that anything I've learned about respecting and appreciating strong, independent, progressive, insightful women in leadership came from my mom. It was a small town, northern Louisiana woman, who exhibited all of those qualities and was our example as a single mom and as a professional woman. It's given me an advantage, a belief in that, a receptiveness to that, a commitment to that. It's just, it becomes part of who you are. And I think you've all hit on it exactly, especially Rebecca. Allyship is a verb. It is an active verb and it needs to come from the heart and the spirit. And that heart and spirit need to come from who we are as a person culturally, historically, traditionally. And I think the other thing that I'd be remiss not to point out is that having gotten to know these four truly exceptional women pretty well over recent years, I can tell you completely honest, no matter how high an opinion you may have of each of them, you are underestimating them. I guarantee you that whatever you think you see and perceive, there is more. And the more you know them, the more you find out about them, the more you will find to respect and admire. And I think each of you has shown that you've taken situations where somebody brought unacceptably offensive and demeaning attitudes and behaviors to the front, and you exhibited exactly the opposite behaviors and attitudes, and gave people a place where to go. And the response to that was people who came to you and expressed their thanks and appreciation for reminding them this is how people treat each other. So what can women in leadership do now that can help make that model more pervasive in our society as divided as we are? Some people become, I'm saying become all of us on this program are mentors. Yeah, but be a mentor, look for opportunities to serve because sowing good seed, you reap good seed, and you meet people who you didn't expect to meet and you get opportunities you didn't expect to get because of your willingness to sow into people. And I have mentors even at this point in my career, I have a panel of mentors, some people refer to them as their personal board of directors, but I have mentors who don't interact with each other, but they serve different purposes for me, and I certainly make myself available to be a mentor because the next generation needs to know what we know, and they need to be encouraged and pushed sometimes we get behind them and push, and you can dream for them beyond their capacity to dream for themselves and that's what we want to see is more confident professionals in the future. Exactly, exactly. I'd say tell the story, and I agree with everything that Rebecca has said, but tell the story because when we see those who've gone before us or we see our peers, there's that public persona, and then there's that private personal persona and life, and sometimes they're one and the same, but oftentimes it's the wear and tear of the demands of being a public official or being in front of parties that we need that time to connect with others, and so while we talk about the forward-facing, we also need to talk about the need to have the support, the allyship, and sometimes that circle of confidence that you can literally say, I'm exhausted, I need a break, or right now I've got three things pulling on me and I don't know which one to do first, so that you can, after you've talked with that circle, go back to that public persona and do what you need to do, and that's an integral part of leadership is refreshing and recharging, and I don't necessarily need taking a vacation, but it could be that, but it could also be me picking up the phone and saying to Rebecca, Rebecca, I'm experiencing imposter syndrome, and she says, tell me what's going on. Yeah, that's your sis, absolutely, yes, that is beautiful, absolutely, and to have that is really awesome, and one of the things I think about too is, you know, gratitude for those who paved the way before, I mean, I can't, you know, I'm a bit older and I remember, you know, when I started law school in the early 70s, they weren't that many women, you know, in the law school, when I, everything I've kind of done, you kind of went in and there was hardly anybody there, but that you could, you know, look to, but when I, you know, look at the history and study what, you know, what women lawyers or women in other professions who were in the, you know, like in the 40s and 50s, and even before then, you know, went through to get to get to accomplish what they did, they knew, like Rebecca, they knew what they came there for, and they made a path, and I just am forever grateful for those incredible women who left this way that we can kind of move into and, like you say, prepare the next generation and, you know, be those mentors and you know, I have, I have, you know, two daughters who are in professions and my youngest is in engineering, and she's always telling me these, reminding me now of things that I did as a parent that kind of, sometimes it's a little bit shocking, but kind of nice to, to hear that back, because she's in those circles where, you know, even in law now, we have, you know, a good number of women in the field, but in engineering, they're still not, and so she's taking that sense that you mentioned, Rebecca, of I belong here, I know what I'm doing, I'm supposed to be here, and she's okay with that, not enough, you know, she doesn't have to be, you know, bludgeoned with the hammer or anything, but she knows her stuff, because that's what we as, you know, as mentors in the role models have prepared this generation to do, that's what we got from, you know, the women who went before us, and so I think it's gratitude right now, gratitude. I think it's also awareness that we are being watched, you know, we're kind of slogging through life just trying to do our thing and not realizing that people are looking for at us, and so I've tried to be even more positive and act like I'm having fun, because, you know, who's going to want to be a leader or a partner if they look like you're just dying, and it's been slogged, and it's much more enjoyable if you can have a create a positive experience from working with each other too. What a great place to end today's session. We're out of time, but thank you all for joining us. There will be more of these wonderful, inspiring, enlightening experiences and people, and we hope we'll come back, and we'll come back in two weeks and rejoin us again. Thank you all so much. Thanks for giving us the forum. Thanks, Chuck. This was great. Thank you, Chuck.