 Hello, Psych2Go viewers. Our guest for today's live stream is Erica, and we're going to be discussing her lived experiences of living with pure O, also known as pure obsessional OCD, which is also, which is an internal form of OCD. Erica is the host of her own podcast and YouTube channel, Just Say Maybe, which is linked in the description and she's dedicated to spreading mental health awareness through her work. Welcome, Erica. Thank you for joining us today. Thanks, Michelle. Thanks for having me. I'm excited to be here. Of course, can you tell us a little bit about yourself and your background? Sure. Yeah. So my name is Erica. I live in the DC area. I've been working with OCD advocacy in the past year or so. After I was, I would say I was diagnosed formally maybe two years ago now. So after doing some research on my own and I wanted to help others feel less alone and educate themselves on OCD and anxiety and all those sorts of things. So yeah, but I'm excited to be here and talk about OCD and pure O and all that. Awesome. And we're happy to have you. So when were you diagnosed with OCD just for starters? Yeah. So I was diagnosed, I think it was in October 2021. So almost two years ago now. I had been to a few therapists before then and we had always kind of talked about OCD in a in a less, I guess, clinical way and just in terms of patterns I had. But formally I would say about a year and a half, two years ago. And so could you explain to our audience what OCD is for those who maybe don't know? Sure. Yeah. So OCD stands for obsessive compulsive disorder. It used to be I'm not a clinician and I'm not a therapist. I'm just someone who has lived experience and is explaining all this. So, you know, I could always have a little bit of error in what I'm explaining. But as far as I know, OCD stands for obsessive compulsive disorder. It's in the like DSM-5, which is the formal manual for diagnostic, I think it's like diagnostic statistics manual. I can't remember what it stands for, but it's the kind of formal list of mental health diagnoses you can have. And it used to be an anxiety disorder, but now it's part of like a subgroup of OCD and other related disorders. And basically the obsessions come in forms of intrusive thoughts or sometimes it's triggered by an event or sometimes it's just something that starts to happen over time. And then that obsession grows and you start to perform compulsions and in order to relieve the anxiety from those obsessions. So it can come in all shapes and forms in all different people, but mainly the underlying feeling is anxiety and it's characterized by repetitive cycles and rituals. So, switching from OCD to pure O, when did you find out or realize that you were living with pure O and was it through a mental health professional since it's a different like form of OCD? Yeah, I mean the first time I personally had even come across the term pure O was when I was still in college because I was trying to figure out what was going on with me. I didn't know, I only knew about what the media portrays as OCD, which is still a valid form of OCD, which is where you are compulsively hand washing or cleaning or organizing. So I didn't really understand what pure O was. So that was about, I don't know, maybe eight, seven or eight years ago. So I had kind of floated the term around with a few therapists I had seen, but it wasn't really until I guess my current therapist where I felt validated in the sense that this is someone who actually knows what this is. You can't get diagnosed with pure O, you can get diagnosed with OCD and then even pure O, the term itself, as you probably know, it's a very controversial term because it stands for purely obsessional. There's not really such thing as a purely obsessional OCD. What it means by that is that the compulsions are internal and so you can't really see them happening, which is why it's a little bit harder to explain to other people because they can't see as visibly what's happening inside of you and what's causing you this anxiety. So yeah, I mean, I've known about it for a while. I'd say like past two years I've leaned in on it more. Thank you so much for clarifying that because people might feel confused about like, what is pure O? What's the difference? Is it something that can be diagnosed? So thank you so much. That was a great clarification and so other than the fact that OCD requires a diagnosis from a healthcare provider, other than that, what are the differences between OCD and pure O? Yeah, so I mean, I can give you a specific example. I would say so when we talk about OCD, there's a lot of different themes that may come up. Sometimes we call them subtypes as well. So there is such thing as you know, health anxiety, health OCD, where you're constantly in fear that your health is at risk. And so you might compulsively go to the doctor because you have a cold and you think maybe that cold is going to kill you. And so you can't stand the uncertainty of whether or not this is just a mild illness or if it's something very serious. So a physical compulsion is literally going to the doctor over and over again to try to calm your fears. Someone with maybe health anxiety or health OCD that doesn't have as visible or physical as compulsions might just try to reassure themselves constantly or, you know, a lot of us do this, but Google symptoms and try to reassure yourself through reading articles and posting on online forums. And all of these things are, you know, things that people who don't have OCD will do too. The difference is when it interferes with your life, when you're constantly in great anxiety and fear, you're isolating yourself from other people. And I think one of the criteria is if it's taking up more than an hour of your day pretty much every day, then that's definitely a problem. So it's more of like an internal dialogue that's going on with pure O, whereas physical compulsions are things that other people can see that you're doing. So yeah. And since they're a little different, does treatment for OCD work with pure O effectively? Or would you say that something different needs to be like maybe prescribed or like? Yeah, I would say the basis of it is the same so what we say a lot in kind of like the OCD community is that ERP, which stands for exposure and response prevention therapy, is the gold standard for OCD treatment. And what that is is it's a very kind of organized sort of exposure where you label your anxiety on a scale. And so it not necessarily totally just throws you into the, you know, throws you into the river to try to swim. It's usually pretty gradual. And so you'll have the clinician who will expose the patient or the client to something that triggers them and that causes interest of thoughts or compulsions. And then they'll just try to get that client to not respond, which is the response prevention part. So if your compulsion is to ruminate, which is a symptom that's pretty characterized by, or a symptom that is common in pure OCD, just a lot of rumination, your therapist might just try to get you to acknowledge that you're about to start ruminating and then just try to get you to just sit there in the anxiety, even if it makes you very uncomfortable. But you know, it's a very, very, very, very, very, very, very, even if it makes you very uncomfortable. But you know, it's always supervised. So yeah, let's say someone has, let's say someone has harm OCD. So harm OCD is when you might have intrusive thoughts about hurting yourself or your loved ones. Someone who has maybe more physical compulsions like hiding knives in their drawer, their clinician may ask them to hold that knife in their hand and just sit there with it for 30 seconds and feel the anxiety come over them. But someone who maybe doesn't have any kind of visible compulsions like hiding knives, maybe their, their compulsion is just to ask, like, what is it about myself that's making me have this intrusive thought? Like, why am I even thinking this way? And this is kind of rumination. So in that case, someone who's showing more pure O symptoms of compulsions, their clinician might just ask them to sit there and not ruminate or not try to reassure themselves or something like that. Yeah. And since you mentioned rumination, how does like pure O interfere with like daily life? Like, I know that the rumination can be really severe in the intrusive thoughts. So could you explain that like maybe for you in the past, how it may be interfered with daily life? Yeah. So for me, I had a little bit of a breaking point in the OCD community. We kind of refer it to it as, you know, the day your brain broke. And it's kind of like the day that something changed and you couldn't stop compulsing. I think there's different stages of that. You know, sometimes throughout your life, you'll have phases of really difficult OCD periods. But for me, I got into, you know, I got into a new relationship a few years ago. And I think being in that relationship, especially because it was one that was very different than the kind of dynamic I was used to, started to make me even more anxious. So I think this is one of those ironic things is like when you get into something that's a little healthier, you start to feel more anxious and you start to look for things that are wrong. And I think my mind started to just like playing on to all the anxieties I had. And so what that looked like for me was in the form of like relationships, OCD and sexual orientation, OCD, wondering if my partner was the right partner for me, constantly checking my attraction to other people. It's like before that moment, it's kind of like a sense of hyper awareness. You know, before that moment, I was perfectly fine with just walking down the street, you know, I would say to my partner, like, oh, this person is pretty or this person is cute or whatever. And there was no problem with it. But one day, I said the same thing. And then the thought popped into my head, does that mean that, you know, that you don't love your partner? Does that mean that you're not the sexual orientation you thought you were? And it's difficult to explain to people because a lot of people question their sexual orientation, but not to the extent of where you start to be so hyper aware of every single person around you that you're constantly checking internally where your attraction is. So the same way that someone who maybe has like responsibility, OCD, who's scared to leave their house because they keep checking to make sure the lights are on or off. That's a different form of checking. Someone who maybe has internal OCD, they're going to be checking their own feeling, their own attraction, their desires. With harm OCD, they might think when I held that knife, like, okay, I didn't feel like stabbing someone, right? Like I just felt like cutting my vegetables, right? There's just constant kind of questioning yourself and you start to build this air of distrust within yourself. And then all of a sudden you start questioning your entire life. Everything up to that point, you know, was it real that I misinterpret it? Am I really who I think I am? And so I think it's just hard to, it's hard to just start seeing your life in a completely different way. So that's how it affects you. So in a lot of ways, the rumination and the intrusive thoughts sort of like spiral into anxiety is that kind of what happens? It turns into anxiety, it turns into like severe worry and like maybe paranoia in a way? Yeah, I would say there's some paranoia there. Yeah, you're definitely right about the spiraling. I mean, it feels like you're losing control. And that's one of the things that a lot of people with OCD will say is that they fear that even having the intrusive thought means that they're about to lose control, that their true self is about to be shown. So people who have really stigmatized forms of OCD, you know, we can say like harm OCD, any OCD relating to sexually intrusive thoughts like sexual orientation OCD or pedophilia OCD, like those types of OCD that you really don't hear about because they're not as family friendly to talk about. Those are especially difficult because they really dig at your values. And the reason why people even have some of these intrusive thoughts come up is because they're so far away from wanting to do that, that their brain keeps checking to make sure that there's no danger involved. So if you're someone who really cares about, you know, have really strong family values, and this happens a lot to postpartum mothers, they have thoughts about harming their child in any way, shape, or form. Maybe they're having those intrusive thoughts because they don't want any harm to come to their child. And the fact that they're so terrified by those thoughts means that they don't want to do it. But then it gets into this battle inside yourself like, well, why would I have the thought in the first place? And it's really just giving a lot of meaning to your thought that I think makes it start to spiral. I don't know if you've ever heard of the term thought action fusion. I have not explained that to our viewers. Yeah, it's a term that basically means that you consider your thoughts to be having the thought to be equal to performing the action. So you feel the same amount of emotion that you would have is if that event were to actually happen in real life. So for someone who's seeing very violent, harmful, just disturbing intrusive thoughts repetitively, it's almost as though they're seeing it in real time and they're feeling what it's like having a lot of people will say it's like having a horror movie like playing nonstop and you can't turn it off in your head. But for you, does it help or for like anyone? Have you noticed that? Does it help to like talk about it? Like, does it help sort of like instead of keeping it repressed, does it help to maybe like explain the intrusive thought to people to therapists? Does that help? Or is I don't know. I think, yeah, it helps to talk to people who understand. The problem is that a lot of people don't understand. It's not because they don't necessarily want to. It's not because they're like a bad person for not understanding. It's because it's so taboo. Some of these subjects that come up in these intrusive thoughts that when you talk to someone, you're risking a lot. Absolutely. You can't already mental health is stigmatized in the workplace. So if you were to say anything that is, that someone will misinterpret, you can risk losing your job, you can risk losing your community, you can risk losing your relationships. And, you know, I've gone through times where I've tried to explain myself to my friends to understand, like, you know, they'll say and notice you're feeling depressed or anxious and like, what's going on? And then you try your best to explain it. And then they, they don't, they either start to believe that the fears you have about yourself are real, or, or they, they will try to combat what you say with logic, which is another layer of this complex issue is that trying to fight OCD with logic is, it relieves the anxiety temporarily, but it's just kind of another form of reassurance that can continue the cycle. For example, if I say like, I'm, I'm worried that I'm a bad person because I had this intrusive thought about running someone over, let's say, my friend, if I had a friend or a loved one who said, no, like, you would never do that, like you're a good person, you would never do that. OCD brain might say, well, how do you know that? How do you know, like, that that's going to happen? Or maybe they'll say, okay, yeah, that's right. But then later on, they'll start to ruminate about whether or not that's true. So, like, they almost make you in a weird way. Do they make you like feel bad about the thought because they're saying, well, no, you're having those thoughts, but you're a good person. It makes you feel like, okay, well, am I maybe a bad person for having these thoughts? Exactly. It's like, well, yeah. Yeah. So like, if someone, you're, you're labeling me as a good person, but I feel like a bad person. So now I feel even more like I'm hiding something from you because I'm not meeting your expectations. I don't know. It's like, exactly. So it becomes difficult to explain to others for sure. Is it better to just accept the thought then? Is that like a better strategy? Like, I'm having these thoughts, thoughts don't make me, you know, I'm not acting on, acting out on them. I'm just going to accept the fact that I have these thoughts and move forward. Is that a better strategy or is that something that helps? For sure. Yeah. The reason why I chose just say maybe as my podcast and my social media is because a lot of what we talk about in therapy related to OCD is to just accept the uncertainty, which is really, really hard. It's really hard, especially when you have intrusive thoughts that are very, very contrary to your values and beliefs. We, you know, we call them ego, dystonic thoughts. So thoughts that don't align with your ego, your identity, your sense of self. I had never heard that term. Can you like repeat that again? That's so interesting. It's called an ego dystonic thought. Ego dystonic thoughts? Yeah. So ego dystonic versus ego syntonic. So ego syntonic meaning the thoughts align with your beliefs, your values, your ego, your identity as a person. Ego dystonic meaning it doesn't, it completely contradicts what you actually believe in. Oh, that's so, I never knew that. We always learn something new, but go on. Sorry. No, no worries. Yeah, so I mean, it's just something to kind of keep, keep in mind that thoughts are sometimes wild card. You can't, you can't control your thoughts. The more control you have over them, I would say, or the more control you try to have over them, the less comfortable you are with uncertainty. And I think that what we try to do a lot in like exposure and response prevention therapy is try to get people to build back up that self-trust to, you know, to just believe that the values you say you hold and the person you say you are, like that is the person you are. And that just because you have these terrible intrusive thoughts doesn't mean that that contradicts who you believe yourself to be. Yeah. You made a really interesting point there that, you know, our thoughts sometimes we can't control them. And a lot of times I think often people think that their thoughts are a reflection of who they are when in reality they're not like your thoughts are your thoughts. That doesn't mean that it is, you know, a reflection of who you are. It doesn't mean that you're going to act out on them. It doesn't really mean anything. Like what you said, they're a wild card sometimes. And I think that's maybe why people struggle maybe with intrusive thoughts because they think, okay, well, if I'm thinking this, therefore that's who I am. Right. Is that really how it Yeah. Yeah. And I think I talked about this a little bit on my Instagram, but I think intrusive dreams are something that happen. I mean, you probably had like a weird favorite dream before. And then you're just like, what was that? But, you know, intrusive dreams are even more difficult because so many people apply meaning deep meaning to dreams. They say like, you know, if you dreamt about like this came to me in a dream and that was like my subconsciousness telling me I need to do something. And that's definitely a problem because in your dream state, I mean, unless you mastered, you know, what is that form of dreaming? Lucid dreaming? Lucid dreaming. Unless you mastered lucid dreaming, you can't control what's going on in a dream. You just kind of like ride the wave. You just let it happen. Right. And so that's even that's even kind of more anxiety inducing because yeah, you're having a dream and then something terrible intrusive is happening. And then you wake up and your first, your first question to yourself is like, why did I have that dream? What does it mean about me? And then that can just kind of keep the cycle going. That's an amazing comparison because it is true. Like people kind of look at dreams and thoughts differently. Like dreams people kind of acknowledge that you can't really control your dreams, but it can be the same way with thoughts. So that's an amazing comparison because it is the same. Like you can't always control. Usually, I mean, no one can control their dreams. And a lot of the time there are people who can't control their thoughts. I mean, it's like the same thing. It doesn't mean it's a reflection of who you are or your life or anything. Sometimes it just means nothing. Right. Right. Yeah. I would say so. Yeah. There are, it's hard with, I mean, I'm not going to say like astrology is necessarily comparable, but just like there are a lot of, there's a lot of like spiritual reasoning involved sometimes and people are very spiritual and they believe in meaning behind dreams. And I also have, you know, I try to take the good I have in dreams. Like if I have a past love one who's deceased and they show up in my dreams, like I do try to take that as a sign, but it's like, it's hard because you, to pick and choose like that, because then if you attribute meaning to one thing in your dream, then that means you're, you know, you're more risk to everything. And sometimes there's just not sometimes, you know, dreams are just the mishmash of your memories and experiences. And they're just kind of like spat into this little, I would just think of it like there's like all your memories and your thoughts and dreams are put into this little machine and then they just like fit out the other end and they want to be, you don't know, you can't, you can't, you're going to think about tonight. I guess the best thing to do in some cases just accept that you have these dreams, except that you have these thoughts, just accept it. It's not a reflection of you. Yeah, exactly. And so I wanted to ask this question. I think it's really important. What are some misconceptions about OCD, any form of OCD that are harmful and that perpetuate the stigma in your opinion? Sure. Yeah. Well, I mean, to me, this is a subject that's been talked about a lot, but I think it's just because I'm, you know, I'm pretty aware of that OCD advocacy community, but saying things like I'm so OCD, kind of telling someone that they're being OCD because they want something a certain way. I think people conflate OCD and OCPD a lot, because OCPD is obsessive compulsive personality disorder, where the difference being OCD, people with OCPD are, you know, they want things in order. They're very perfectionistic. And they're not, they don't, they're not aware that it's a problem. It affects other people around them. It affects their environment. Whereas a lot of OCD, it can affect your relationships with other people, but most of the battle is internal. And it's, it's not, the people who have OCD are more aware that what their issues are, are a problem. So I think there's a kind of misunderstanding between OCD and OCPD. So that's one thing I would say. But yeah, advertising like OCD, like obsessive Christmas disorder, obsessive cooking disorder. Yeah, that's awful. That's not cool. Yeah. It's like, I'm insensitive to people who have it. It's a real disorder. You know, I, I, yeah. Yeah. And people don't make fun of cancer the same way. I mean, I know, oh my God, yeah. We know that cancer is not the same thing. I mean, or like even PTSD, let's say, or you don't, you know, or like when people say you're so bipolar, right? I mean, that's, yeah, I mean, there's so many things you could say. I've heard, I've heard so, I've heard like, oh my God, I got PTSD from this. I'm like, oh, I'm so ADHD about whatever. And I understand like, I think it's just not the way I would like to express myself or like the things I go through. Because I do, I do realize that everyone has different coping mechanisms. And there are people who say I'm so OCD and they do have OCD, they are diagnosed with that. And so everyone is, I think, entitled to their own coping mechanisms. But I think when it's on a greater scale, like with companies doing their marketing that way, I think that's really problematic. Absolutely. Oh, yeah, then they have to be held accountable for that. For sure. Yeah. And I think that education, that's why education is so important. That's why Psych2Go does this. Because the more people know the education, if this was in schools, right, they had mental health training classes in schools. And more people just trained in mental health in general, I think that we would eliminate the stigma or at least help with it. But I think that when people just don't know, they're not doing out of doing it out of malice, but they're still being offensive, right? Right. Yeah, exactly. So that brings, sorry, go ahead. Sorry, one more thing I was gonna add is on social media, there's there's been a trend, I would say in the past year or so, where people say things like, when you let your intrusive thoughts win, and it's, yeah, that's like, then they show a video of, I mean, it's usually something outrageous happening. But I think it's caused a lot of anxiety within people who have OCD because it's, the person with OCD would never let their intrusive thoughts win. Intrusive thoughts in and of themselves are unwanted repetitive thoughts that display something to you that is that is contrary to what you believe in. So they're not something you want to do. And so everything you do in your compulsions is to prevent something like that from ever happening. And so you would, some of the OCD would never let their intrusive thoughts win. And so I think the meaning of intrusive thoughts is becoming a little bit lost. Yeah, it's becoming a little bit lost. And I think it's starting to imply that these are deep rooted desires you actually do have that you're just all of a sudden letting loose. And that's, that's not what intrusive thoughts are. They're not your true desires. They're just kind of you can't help it. Yeah, that's actually a really good point. And like, people have to be careful about their language. And if it's not something that you've experienced, I mean, it's not that you're letting it win, right? It's something that you can't help. That's the whole point. Like, that's why you have OCD. It's compulsive. It's not something that you would help. But yeah, that's a really great point. So thank you for bringing that up and highlighting that. And so now we're going to turn to our audience segment where we answer your viewer questions. I'm excited for this. Let's begin Erica, because I think there's a lot of people in here right now. Let's see. And so Laura asks, how do you effectively tell, you know, a significant other that you're suffering or dealing with OCD? Yeah, that's tough. I would say it's better. I think it's always good to educate yourself first before you try to educate others. And when I say educate yourself, I mean, looking up resources from, for example, the IOCDF, the International OCD Foundation, they have a lot of great resources and articles, peer reviewed studies and everything like that, that you can use to show people who are skeptical that there's science behind this and that, you know, a large proportion of the population, a lot of people experience this kind of these kind of things. So I would start by trying to educate yourself first, and then depending on what your theme of OCD is, find some articles that are relevant to that, and then showing your partner that. I mean, for me, it was relationship and sexual orientation OCD. And so that was very hard to talk to my partner about, because that directly affects our relationship. And, you know, he was very, he was skeptical at first, like he didn't really understand it first. And if you're watching, you know, thanks for getting this with me. But over time, like the more the more we talked about it together and like went through, you know, educating ourselves together. Isn't it amazing to have a supportive person, right? Like you have, what's his name? Evan. Evan, hi Evan. Thank you for being supportive. Okay, and then let's see. Another question. Oh, okay, someone asked, Jennifer asked, so how do you deal with bullying due to having OCD in school, like people who don't understand? That's a good question. I mean, I haven't been in school in a while. And I think I understand everyone has a misconception about OCD, not everyone, but a lot of people when, especially when you're still in middle school or high school, I would say, again, trying to educate them as well as yourself, maybe you could have, you could look for a peer support group in the area that could help you find some resources for, you know, for a counselor or a speaker to come to your school to talk about it. It's hard to say because that's very case by case basis, but I would say having a support system is going to get you through a difficult environment like that where no one else understands. So if you are able to find a peer support group in your area, maybe just going to meetup.com or looking on the iOS CDF website, there are resources for online peer support groups you can talk to. I don't, stopping bullying is a thing that I'm not an expert in. Bullies suck. So it's always their problem, not yours. It's because they're insecure about something and they need to pick on you. And then Trinity asked, how do you effectively get out of ruminations? So something I didn't mention is, so I talked about ERP, which is exposure and response prevention therapy. But I didn't talk about ACT, which is or ACT acceptance and commitment therapy. It's a type of therapy that's very values based. So it means it's really helpful for when you're in the middle of a compulsion and you want to redirect your behavior towards your values. So let's say you're in the middle of talking to a friend and in the middle of it, your conversation, you see something or you hear something that triggers a rumination. In that case, you might start to zone out, not listen to your friend anymore. But if your value that you've kind of held in your pocket there is that you want to be a supportive and attentive friend, you want to be an active member in your friend group and have healthy relationships. Maybe you can get that value to pull you out of the rumination. Right now, this rumination is pulling me away from the kind of person I want to be, the kind of friend I want to be. So I'm going to do everything I can right now to refocus my attention to the present moment and mindfulness in general. Mindfulness, you know, taking into account the five things you see, four things you hear, three things you feel, that kind of countdown list of being in the present moment that can help as well. That's amazing. Thank you. I agree with all that. And then Lucy asked, how do I tell my mom about my OCD? And I think this is a great question because sometimes people don't know how to approach that conversation with the loved one just in general. So what would your advice be, Erica? Well, I mean, I had some experience telling my parents as well. I think it's family dynamics are difficult. You can have a family member that's very supportive and you can have one that's skeptical. I would say it depends on, I guess, how close you are to your family member. But again, a lot of people like research, a lot of people like articles. You can talk about your experiences with it. You don't have to, like, you don't have to go super in detail. I think some people think that when you're first telling someone about OCD, you need to tell them absolutely everything. It's everywhere it's affected you, but maybe just kind of taking it piece by piece and slowly easing it into the conversation and just letting them know how much it affects you and if you need help or want help. And you don't need, I mean, and I just wanted to add this, like, you don't need to tell anyone until you're ready also. Yeah, absolutely. And then Jeremy asked, does grief and trauma go hand in hand with OCD or even PRO? How can I heal before going back into counseling or therapy? That's a good question. I mean, if the question is, how can I heal before going back into counseling and therapy? I mean, grief and trauma can make OCD recovery harder. And they can also trigger OCD. Like, you can be someone who, OCD has a lot of factors. It's environmental and it can be genetic, but like, you can just be kind of essentially, you know, one day you just, nothing traumatic happens. You just all of a sudden start becoming hyper aware of something. Other days, you have trauma and then that, because of that very real trauma, you're scared that that event will happen again, that traumatic event will happen again. So I do think that it can go hand in hand. It might be worth it to consider a trauma, a grief counselor paired with an OCD specialist because, or have them work together because a lot of talk therapy can actually be detrimental to OCD recovery if that therapist is not specialized or knowledgeable about OCD. Because a lot of, some therapists will try to get you to interpret your feelings more and your thoughts more. And so that will actually sometimes make your OCD worse because they're buying into the idea that you have about yourself because of your OCD. So I would, I would, I would try if you have the means to, to try to see both. It's hard. And to add to that, sometimes it takes time to find the right therapist. Yeah, for sure. And so clan asks, I want everything in order. Does this mean I have OCD? I think this is a little bit of like, leaning on, like the misconception sometimes people have about OCD that just because you want things in order, it means you have it. What do you think Erica, since clan asked you? I don't think it means you have OCD. It could mean you have OCD. There is a form of just, it's called just right OCD. It's a subtype of OCD where you do want things in a very specific order and like you want things to be done in a very specific way. And so it's possible. I mean, I'm, again, I'm not a clinician. So I can't give you a diagnosis. Like you should never give someone a diagnosis based off of my sentence, but it's possible. Okay, thank you for that. And then Beatrice asked, did it ever happen to you, Erica, that you ruminate so much about something that you no longer know what is real or fake? Like your true intentions at that moment? Is that something that you've experienced? Yeah, you, yes, for sure. Yeah. Yes, I have the experience that you're not alone. I would probably 90% of people who have OCD have experienced that. But again, I, you can't know what your true intentions are. Something I always try to come back to is like, just say maybe like you, you don't know why you're truly, you're never going to know 100% why you had the thought. You're not going to, you can't even be certain that you're never going to do that thing. And that's terrifying to say like, I, you, like you, you can't, you have to just tell yourself, like, I don't know if that's going to happen or not, or if that's even true. But yes, I have had that happen to me. And it's difficult. Ruminate yourself. Awesome. Thank you for that, Erica. And that was our last question for the audience segment. And so I wanted to ask how do we effectively support someone that is going through OCD or any type of OCD for that matter? I would say stay open-minded and ask questions. I don't think there's really a playbook on how you should ask questions, but you know, try to gauge what's sensitive and what's considerate to your loved one who's going through it. I went to the International OCD conference last year, and I saw a lot of families there. There were a lot of kids there, teenagers, parents who who were just there to support their child and wanted to get them help. So I'd say staying open-minded, not telling them, oh, you're just being too sensitive. Oh, like you'll get over it. I think the worst thing you can do is invalidate someone and also know that like them coming into you to tell you is something really brave that they're doing. Absolutely. They might feel like this is going to ruin their lives if they tell you. And so there's really a lot of weight that comes with it. So I would just say try to show your appreciation that they even are sharing it with you. Yeah, it does take a lot of courage and I'm proud of everyone here who has sought out mental health treatment because it does take a lot of courage to want to, you know, help yourself. So that's amazing. And then last question, what does mental health awareness mean to you, Erica? I mean, I think it means highlighting different people's stories, trying to listen to everyone with an open heart. I think a lot of times we just kind of, especially on social media, you don't really know who's listening and how they're going to misinterpret your words. But I would say just try like if someone is talking about a really vulnerable topic, even if they're doing it in a way that you don't necessarily like. I see a lot of people who don't necessarily like when someone is like singing and whatever about something that they've gone through that's traumatic. It's like people have different coping mechanisms and people have different, they're in different places in their journey or their recovery process. And so I would just say try to, you know, we just want to have people be more vulnerable and more open so that those who feel isolated aren't going to do anything to harm themselves. I mean, I hear sometimes like OCD awareness, any kind of mental health awareness is suicide prevention as well. Especially, and I want to just give it like a kind of shout out like an acknowledgement to people who live in countries where there are certain OCD themes that might be even more stigmatized. Like for example, if you live in like Russia or like another country where maybe like being gay is literally illegal. Of course, you're going to have like the more stigmatized something is in your society, the more you're going to be terrified, even having any interest in thoughts related to it. Absolutely. So I just want people to be to know that they're not alone and you know that yeah, that there's hope. Absolutely. That's so amazing that you highlighted that I didn't think of it that way. Like the cultural factor that plays into it that can sometimes make, you know, someone's mental health issues even worse. Yeah, absolutely. Well, thank you so much for your work, Erica. You're doing amazing work and you're helping so many people through your advocacy. Remember to look at the description because her podcast and YouTube channel is linked. Just say maybe, correct? Yeah, just say maybe. Well, thank you, Erica. Thank you to our amazing viewers at Psych2Go for watching. Have a great day, guys. Thank you. Bye.