 All right, let's start at the very beginning. Where did you grow up? I was born in Buffalo, New York Actually left there when I was 17 and it's been moving steadily south Because you know Buffalo Buffalo's a little cold it is Please tell us a bit about your family growing up. I was one of two children and I was the oldest son and German and I recently found out Polish background and Went to Grammar school high school and college in that particular and Niagara University was was the college Buffalo had a had it had somewhat of an impact to me. I go back now. I can handle about 36 hours in Buffalo That it's time to Say goodbye Tell us a bit about your schooling in Buffalo It was it was typical For for my family typical Catholic upbringing, I'm I call myself a cradle to grave Catholic and Went to Catholic grammar school Catholic high school and Catholic University was also very active in the church. I was Music literatist and also a soloist from the age of eight in the Catholic Church and I still did that today You were in the cemetery In in the old days, if you will In the Catholic families a lot of times they would designate a child of the families that was going to be committed to Religious service and I happen to be the lucky one that my grandparents and my parents thought I would be an ideal Candidate for that and so right shortly after high school, I got sent off to a Order called the obelisk of Mary Immaculate, which is an upper-state New, New York And it's a contemplative order. So the contemplative orders are are pretty serious about what they do and you know There's no talking. There's a lot of work. There's, you know, we learned how to use the the rope belt for other things and I lasted about six months and they had the Wisdom to counsel me out. They thought I didn't have enough discipline to be Contemplative priest, but they thought I might make a good diocesan priest So I get sent back to Buffalo never did follow up any further than that the six months was sufficient Please elaborate a little bit about contemplative orders What exactly does that mean? It means getting up at 4 30 in the morning cold bowl of water to wash with There was a definite pecking order within within the seminary so that the novitiates, which is what we were We're very submissive to the priests that were had been around a longer period of time We did a lot of service a lot of cleaning there was gardening and because we raised a lot of our own food at the seminary there was some opportunity to Go out to the outside and they usually sent that the novitiates on that and we would teach Catholic catechism as we called it to Outside the outside world if you will I happen to have gotten me all girls high school as my My assignment and never could quite get it right Trouble all the time about seeking hamburgers back that the girls would give me or candy bars and stuff Obviously, I need a little more. Well, what does Catholicism mean to you? Well, it's a Christian. It's a Christian tradition It is it traces its roots back to Jesus Christ in the early church, you know, if if you are publicly Attached Peter the very first Pope Was assigned as the rock upon which Christ said his church would be built It is one of the older Christian religions But there as we know there have been many many divisions and split offs from that particular time The old Catholic Church prior to Pope John the 23rd was very steeped in ritualism It was Latin all the all the rights were done in Latin. So you didn't know what the fuck they were talking about And they priest did all of his magic to back to the audience So you never knew what was going on up front and after John the 23rd changed it around a little bit You know now we're in the English or your local languages and the priest faces faces the the audience Or the congregation if you want so those changes were a little difficult for those of us of the old school to take We were into the mysticism. We were into the the secretive And mystical if you Elements of the Catholic Church, so it's kind of coming back that way if that there's even rumors that the mass is now Going to go back to Latin so that'll be that'll be interesting. What are your thoughts on that? I care not. I'm a Buddhist So are the changes to which you're referring Relations, are they related to the Vatican to the changes happen in the 60s? Yes. Yes, okay That that's caused quite a bit of schism in the church There's still a very old element of the church that still practices some of all the it's very difficult to find a mass in Latin or You know the old right as I call it. It's very difficult to find We've gone ecumenical. Well, what are your thoughts on women serving as priests? Amen should be About priests being able to marry. Absolutely. Don't tell me how to use my dick if you've never used yours Well, what opinions thoughts do you have about the church's attitudes about gays and lesbians? That's one of the reasons that I'm having a difficult time even even Resonating with Catholicism any longer It's because they speak the words, but they don't walk the talk and most organized religions is what I find that to be true anymore That's sort of what's pushed me into a Buddhist tradition of spiritual practice Because it's personal and it's practiced as an integral part of my life It's not about what somebody else is telling me to do and many religions regrettably don't have an acceptance of God's creatures as as as I think God or whatever power you call that higher power means it to be and So organized religion doesn't work for me very well any longer. It's really really about a personal spiritual practice What are some of the differences between Catholicism and Buddhism? Well Catholicism tells you a lot of things that are not right and Buddhism tells you that everything is right Even the stuff that we would categorize is wrong because all of the all of the lessons that we have an opportunity to learn as a Practitioner of this journey in life and it's Buddhism that you choose to practice in the case that without those lessons No advancements in your spiritual and life practices would have that opportunity to assist So that stuff that we say is uncomfortable or it's bad is really not it's part of what life is about And so we as as a Buddhist practitioner is about acceptance is saying I wonder what lesson I'm supposed to learn from that Hopefully I've learned it. Thank you universe. I go Please elaborate a bit on your spirituality that that seems to be a very solid core within it is it's been it's been a search for a lot of years and I've substituted lots of other things to to avoid it But my question has always been about what is the short and brief experience that we have on this earth? How does it how does it impact? I am here. What's my purpose? What am I supposed to be doing? And I have I don't have the answers. I haven't found the book yet that has all that stuff in it but I think I've got it got it a glimmer of Right living has a great opportunity to lead us there and so that the Spiritualness I've delved into the Jewish religion the mystical parts of a lot of Practices have always attracted me American Indian is very very strong on part of part American Indian So I think there are some roots there that That resonate very strongly and it's that that mystical attraction the understanding of The acceptance of a greater power that is on our side and not necessarily here to condemn us or to judge us but simply to be at peace with us is is the strength of my Just are my spiritual practice fascinating Please tell us a bit about your time as an actor and singer in New York City. Oh Lord Well as I said earlier I How I actually got into voice and vocal was as a young person. I had a very serious Stuttering problem. I was unable to put two or three words together without without that that stuttering issue and somebody recommended to my parents that voice Lessons would be helpful and so when I got engaged with a with a vocal coach They discovered that I actually have gift of pipes that actually produce some sounds that are sometimes pleasing to me And so from the age of about six, I was taking voice lessons and actually beginning to solo a lot of work and Did a lot of high school Broadway musicals and you know, obviously the gay gene was in there percolating away, so the Broadway stuff really caught me and after after a period of time of experimenting in life forces I moved to New York City and I would try my my hand at Entering in trying to be a Broadway star. I did have Real tiny little bit of success. I was the under star under study to To the Judas character in the original Jesus Christ superstar on Broadway Ben Vereen actually had the part the motherfucker never missed a performance Never got a chance to go on I off Broadway Played the role of El Gallo Spanish rapist in that play I played that off Broadway for about 11 months But at that particular point in time I was married. I had a small child of 80 and it was very difficult to raise Family on that limited income, so I really my Broadway experience was a singing waiter at Moly-Ones I got to do a lot of that work and that's how I sort of support myself Tell us about your time in a motorcycle game. Oh Well, I was before the Broadway thing it was actually shortly after the seminary as I said I was coming back from the seminary and I was really nervous about how my parents and my family was going to perceive my inability to Meet their expectations of being the priest and future pope of the Catholic Church I think and so I got off the train station in Buffalo, New York And I had a pocket full of money the money who came from my what my parents paid is what they call a stipend Which is what helps support you through your through your seminary assistance, and I had a pocket full of money and Scared to go home off the train and right across the street was a brand-new Harley-Davidson shot Thought we'll all stop in before I go home. It'll help me Center myself and it certainly did because that's when I bought my first piece of leather That's when I bought purchased my first motorcycle and that's when I sort of left family a little while and went off to To ride with a game called the outlaws They are sort of the East Coast Hells Angels if you will though, I've never found them to be of Equal comparison, you know, yeah, they pissed on each other and we drank a lot There was drugs and stuff like that, but I went to for a time and lived up in a commune in Portland, Maine Lived with the outlaws for a while and wrote with them. I Learned a lot. I learned some you know, I went to the seminary and learned a little bit about the ropes stuff on the back Outlaws and learned a little bit more about pissing on people So Mike Unbeknownst to me in my BDSM was beginning to get its groundings Is that what drew you to King? Actually, I was not even drawn to kink when I first entered the leather the leather is actually what brought me to this community You know, I've explained that I've been married. I've got two kids and Sometime after that I discovered. Oh dick. I like it and And became what I call a gay man. I don't consider myself bisexual even though I have a very strong lesbian tendency But How but but anyway, it was the leather that always drew me in so I had two very long term relationships with men my first lover contracted AIDS very early on in the AIDS crisis and died relatively quickly after he was diagnosed because there wasn't a lot of medicines at that time to to take care of virus and He did not like the leather and so I put it away and My second partner I got involved with him very quickly after the first one died many times when we go through change We jump into another Situation that maybe isn't the healthiest one for us and David my second partner Already had AIDS and so people thought I had lost my mind having gone through burying one partner and Getting immediately involved with somebody else that we knew what the outcome was going to be And David had a few other problems. He was he was a Drug abuser and an alcoholic person also. He was also not comfortable with the letter After David had passed away, I was in the closet and I was clearing out clothes so that I could give his clothes away to There in the back of the closet with my leather jacket that I had bought way way back in Buffalo, New York and I could still Sense it and smell the leather and it still felt good to me and it still fit which was a surprise and I put that on and it called to me and I thought you know what all my life And this was 52 years of life at great family at great great loves in my life I had a great job great support system However, there was a hole in my heart that just would not fill and so I went to the EO bar Found a fulfillment there and a family there That resonated with me again, but there was not kink involved because I was more interested in getting my dick sucked and Being a hot leather man that I was interested in the spiritual part of what I think BDSM leads us to and it wasn't until my second master's retreat Where I experienced dungeon play that I walked out of that dungeon saying you know what there's one Absolute thing that I'm certain of is that I am not a sayist And of course those of you who've seen me play today previous times know that that was definitely not true So even my first experience in the dungeon did not bring me to kink but I recognize the opportunity for our fetishers to draw our hearts and our spirits into Alignment and it gives us the opportunity to be authentic and for people to be who they really And now my fetishes are very connected to my spirituality long answer. Sorry. No, no Tell us a bit about your mentors My very first mentor was a gentleman who's since passed on whose name is master Dean Walrod And master Dean was the owner of leather by boots Which was the largest and most prominently known leather shop in Dallas, Fort Worth And actually he was one of the gentlemen that I met when I Went into the Eagle Bar now As I appear today as a leather man is not how I appeared when I first walked into the Eagle Bar You have to have to kind of get me from where I was for how I got here I was a licensed hairdresser. So I had much more hair and it was always perfectly clothed I had a gray line of the bones very expensive and very odorous I had carrot diamond earrings and each year Number of rings and diamonds and you know kind of looks like the 60s hairy chest lots of gold chain type deal That's how I walked into the Eagle guys And master Dean was one of the first people that I saw and I recognized The power that this man had over boys, which I was looking for I watched him operate I thought oh, that's what I want to be I'm gonna be that kind of leather man And I sort of went up to Dean and chatted with him a little bit He gave me a very clear indication that I don't think so And I did what any good leather man would do is I stalked him I wanted what he had and I hung around long enough where he was willing to take a chance on me and He shared his philosophies. He shared His strengths and his weaknesses with me and made me realize that authenticity was what it was about And it wasn't about the rules about what you wear It's not about the rules of how you play or it was the rules about being responsible about being honored the Loyal having his head and those with the hands around you to be a letterman and He was my very very personal He was unofficial my mentor I mean, he's we never really signed a contract in the mentorship, but but he's he's what I what I aspire to be and I've had I think one other great teacher in my leather Life and that that gentleman. I'm not gonna mention his name On tape because he is not Wishing to be known any longer because he's gone back to his spiritual practice But he's he's what I call the mad desert master those who many of you know what I'm talking about and I love him deeply He is still a person of my heart and he has really wrenched out the spirituality with my letter And there's no longer any separation between that for me What does mentoring How does rather how does mentoring benefit today's community? Well, it has I think it plays a very very strong role I have I have probably some some Contrary views to how the word mentoring is thrown around You know we say to we say to newbies go out and find a mentor And so they walk in and they see somebody much like I did with Master Dean and say I want you to be my mentor And somebody else says okay, I will That's not really mentoring in my in my sense mentoring for me if I contract and I've only mentored two people in The entire time I've been in this is What's the connection? What's the objective? What do you want? What do you why do you want me as a mentor? And what do you want to to get from this and how long does it last and it's almost like a contract of going into service? Because if we agree to have me mentor you then we agree on the objectives and we agree that we're the right combination of people to do this then It's going to have a beginning what we're going to do throughout it And it's going to have an end to it and then and we agree upon that in today's Leather community. I find the word mentor thrown around a whole lot of people say oh, he was my mentor She was my mentor where in relation where in reality it was a relationship and it was probably beneficial But to me it's not truly mentoring. It's It's supportive Relationship if you will but for me mentoring is a very specific Concept that it has very strong power to it, but it's it's it's only selective and you've got to let the universe Help you identify who's the mentor and why? wonderful Tell us a bit about the butchman's weekend experience. What is that? The butchman's weekend experience well that mad desert Master got me involved in it. It was shortly after Montage year and he used to Bring you in as a guest instructor via the weekend is set up as a it's it's done in a dungeon And it's done with with intent and I'll explain that the early parts of which means experience was purely BDSM 101 it was an opportunity for this individual to bring young hunky men Into his home and to teach them how to do BDSM skills correctly So if I wanted to learn how to be tied up or I wanted to learn how to be pierced or I wanted to learn how to Use a gag or a mask that was what the weekend entailed and as the Group of then grew he had to bring other people in to instruct and so master skip chasey and slave master became involved with the butchman's experience I got tagged as come in as a guest instructor and That he got me, you know, it was just like this is wonderful. And I I probably went to every one I probably 14 of them Before this person surprisingly said, you know, it's time for me to move on and sir, would you be willing? Take on the opportunity of which means So which ones has gone from being a BDSM 101 Learned some skills with men to being an all-encompassing spiritual connection weekend Learning how your fetishes and who you are and your authenticity as an individual either as a dominant or submissive can connect and Come together for good and for strengthening of both you and the community that you live in. It's a powerful weekend and Really, I know I'm sounding like a salesman for it But it's something where the people that have attended it and you can talk to hundreds of them will tell you what changes to their life And when you hear that enough times, I think you've got to begin to believe it That is amazing Tell us a bit about the master's heart award and the Leatherman's heart award What are those and what did they mean to you? Well right now there's dust collectors in my house But what that's that's the symbol the Awards themselves were I guess a recognition and an acceptance of that the community Said we see the work that you do and and we honor that and it's humbling to get an award like that. I Know that when I when I first came into this Lifestyle, I didn't identify as a master. I identified as sir. I tried sir I tried daddy for a while. Oh daddy not a good choice No daddy energy in me whatsoever. I have a lot of fatherly archetype. I have no daddy and So I don't take on I don't do boys. Well, I do boys I don't take them on in service because it would be just just it would be not correct thing for our energies to connect But it's a recognition of my choice of being what I call a service top To the community. That's my resignation with with with this community. It's what I am able to do back Those awards are a recognition of I seem to be hitting the mark someplace people are recognizing that what I get back is is a value Okay, thank you Tell us a bit about International master and slave 2004 Yes if anybody had ever told me that I was going to be a Pursuant of a title. I would have told you you're out of your mind. It was not something I was interested in I was I definitely didn't want to be the person standing up there in just a little jock. I thought that would be scary There was no attraction to that at all however again this this desert master that caught my attention had brought this title back to to Respect in the community. There was a reason why he Pursuaded and I watched he and his slave In their year and I was impressed with what they did and then I learned that the title itself is a teaching title Which again resonated with that service that I wanted to provide and so I said to my to my slave Tony at that time This is something that I think we should do and He has a that's what good slave boy said. Yes, sir And we were not competitive about it at all We went however we went to every single regional contest studied every contested folk know It's time of address all that kind of stuff. I did that In preparation a year before our title to be prepared We competed at international Excuse me at Southwest in 2003 Took this the Southwest regional title and then went to international in 2004 and for some reason University issue or the people that will represent master and slave for 2004 and that was a wonderful year It was we received so much more back than what we gave and I think I told you we we spent Considerable money to do the title year and we were out of town 42 weeks You're doing Canada Mexico Any event that would have us any place we could sneak in we bribe somebody will show up We'll clean tables. Yeah, can we can we come and talk about master and slavery? I think it drew Tony and I closer together As a master and slave couple and it taught me that there wasn't one specific Style to master and slavery that it has lots of flavors, which all are wonderful and It was it was a wonderful wonderful year and it's It's never stopped It's never stopped Please tell us about your leather family my leather family Back in and again, this was was prior to my discovery of master and slave I was doing The Texas tanger a AIDS rides. They're advice. They were a bicycle run We used to run from Houston to Dallas in about five and a half days people with bicycle From that in the middle of summer And I was part of the motorcycle safety crew somebody from work actually signed me up to do that and I Met this gentleman and I can only use his first name because again He's he's got a position that I can't say his last name of master Roy my met you and he was the cycle crew captain and We he brought us back to his home to have dinner and he had just gotten the boy and I had never experienced the dominance submissive daddy boy. And he walked into the house and I saw this boy Pretty much undressed kneeling at the door waiting for his sir to come home reverencing his boots when he walked in the door Just so so beautifully done so so elegant that I had a hard on for about Six or seven hours And I just kept watching And at the end of the day I said to Roy I said I need one of those That was the first year subsequent years. I said I need some of those My pig nature started to come out and Roy and I have formed a bond of Leather brotherhood that is stronger than my my biological brother. I love him as if my mother had birthed my my spiritual and He had boy Patrick. I then had come into contact with my first slave and We the symbiosis between us really resonated as a family unit, they will and so we decided to join and called it the Texas Leather tribe He runs the house of Houston. I run the house of Dallas. He currently has a boy and a slave I currently have two slaves and What we do what what our house and our our family unit is about is about service It's about how can we get back? How can we support the efforts of the community that has given us so much and And we will be We will be together in this life and the next I have no doubts at all. He is he's a wonderful individual I love my family There isn't anything I wouldn't do for That's New people are frequently coming into the community what advice do you have for people new to King or the Leather community or both? Well, I'm actually beginning to write a keynote speech which is entitled get the fuck over yourself and That is probably the advice that I would give new people is get the fuck over yourself Take your ego and put it in the back and stand back and allow yourself the opportunity to learn from those that have been there before Take take everything with a grain of salt Listen to what people say, but until you determine that they are people of heart and spirit and they're speaking from Point of authenticity Measure that and then after a period of time you will find some comfort level in which you can grow it Too many with the internet and I'm not an internet baby. The internet has you know gets Tagged down a whole lot, but it does provide an opportunity for knowledge And I send people who come to me for petitioning or the service go to the internet learn some stuff Read some articles learn who your history is about and but don't take the internet life as Get involved with the community that's Especially the dominance Where do you see the King and Leather communities going to me it's interesting You know from the time and I have not been in this community a whole long time It's been only 10 years. I say only 10, but it has gone quickly. I hope I have another 10 20 years to be involved It is blossoming and it is it is coming alive if you will with a whole lot of Energies and I mean who would have thought five or six years ago that we'd be able to take over a whole hotel for events Who would have thought that a leather archives museum would be something that we'd be able to talk about talk about the pride But that's our history in residence there So I love all of that. I think though our community is not unlike all a lot of other communities In that it has its fractioning it has its it has its issues that arise Miss Kendra This event talked about, you know, we need to be kinder to each other We need to think about things that we say and how we say them and that we're not hurting each other I think I think that'll all kind of gel around it to me the the Mandela is The sacred symbol and everything that goes around comes around and and I think that's exactly where we're at I think we're coming back around. I think people are looking at their traditions I think they're looking at their histories. I think they recognize the strength and power of what went before and Strength and energy Great What about you is most misunderstood. Well, I think people think I'm a really mean top And I actually I actually do have a have a have a level of mildness about my top If you would really like just a mild scene, I can do that. I'm a little bored To participate but you know That is one thing the other thing is being a gay male and I play in lots of pansexual space It's hard for me to convince heterosexual men that I don't get any fairy dust on them To gay people if we play together, you know, it's not about that You have to suck my dick or you know, I'm gonna fuck you in the ass or anything like that It's about BSM play it's separated from our sexual gender identities and and and so That's I think that's also misunderstood Especially for me I can sit alone in a dungeon for a whole night and then after the dental people come over and said well I really would have liked to play with you, but I'm so scared of you or I would have liked to play with you But I'm straight It's like oh what a missed opportunity. I would have liked to play with you also I would have liked to have done that. Why isn't that communication energy happening? So I think those are two two misunderstandings. So I'm voting for all you straight men What is your greatest personal challenge my greatest personal challenges progress I have learned put off Which needs to be done today and having slaves makes that whole lot easier Part of my spiritual path is to recognize that right living as something to do with doing it as time of the universe says it And so I am now trying to be much more attuned to the orders that I receive and I don't get a little voice It's all spiritual connection of when it needs to be done now it needs to be done The universe is very very generous They'll hit me in the head with a two by four again if I don't pay attention But I'm trying to do that. So I'm procrastination is probably something I'm working on What will be your legacy? I hope that people say He was a good person that he gave his all. It was willing to show his heart. Ladies and gentlemen masters eat at last