 Thank you so much for doing this firstly and congratulations on the honorary doctorate. I am so so excited to meet you, you're from the same city as me, you're from Calcutta. You've basically lived the life that every woman wants to live. You've set such a beautiful example for girls all over the world and it's just such an honor for me to be interviewing you right now. So I want to start out with like your childhood memories with food, like is there a particular flavor, fragrance, aroma food that instantly takes you back and like as as an add-on to that is there a favorite fish dish that you'll like eat from your mother? So food is so, I'm so glad, I'm 54 and I'm that generation where everybody eat around the table, no one was watching their phone or watching television and food was the only game in town because in Calcutta you know there was no way to go, nothing to do, so everyone just ate. So I have incredible food memories but for me, Paratha has always been like the best memory because I think probably because that was the one thing you got on your own to eat, yeah you never got a half Paratha, you always got a full Paratha and that that was always exciting and that kind of the aroma that came the final stages of when the Paratha was being made that is my kind of best childhood memory because I knew now I didn't understand what was happening but I knew when I smelled that aroma of ghee burning on the tawa I knew my Paratha was going to be ready. So that's like my best childhood memory and when you're asking about fish, I think it has to be fish malai curry and fish malai curry made with Ruhu, Ruhi March which is this kind of local fish of Calcutta and it's got a bit of you know of course it got a bit of bones in it not as much as hilsa as you know but it's just it's still my favorite fish dish so fish malai curry made with Ruhu. That's fabulous, I think I've like grown up eating so much fish around Calcutta, I know exactly what you mean when you say Ruhi March. Can you like trace a distinct memory or like a marker of your identity as a Muslim Bengali Indian woman in the UK you know with the food that you make how do you understand how do you trace identity with food especially with the work that you're doing and like the advocacy that you so actively do. I think food is part of our DNA it explains who we are it's so intuitive to who we are that we don't understand that you need to be able to tell people this is my food and this is me do not separate me my culture and my food the easiest thing to do is to just to take our food and that's what I don't want I want people to understand my story to understand who I am why this food is sacred why this food is so symbolic the nostalgia the honor the respect linked to my food there is unfortunately a lot of racism in this country when it comes to food so anyone who is opening a restaurant with Spanish Korean Japanese Italian food they can charge anything because that food is considered elevated but if you want to be an Indian restaurant serving just our standard food people don't understand for them our food is cheap and cheerful and unfortunately all Indian fine dining has made our food into something you and I would not recognize they have dissected it they have taken out the brown bit I my skin is brown my food is brown I'm not ashamed of what my food looks like but to make it look like a little floral garden to add you know everything like you know from seaweed to you know truffle oil on everything presenting my food as you know pasta style my grandmother would be moving in her grave she'd be shaking her where's the roti she would ask where's the rice you know you're serving smidgens of food on little plates because you think this looks sophisticated but so much of this is about confidence I am so confident about the food from you know my city from Calcutta I will serve chicken chaap koshamang show the biryani even luchi you know with luchi and alutam with as much joy and pride because I don't have a problem about whether this is something people want I don't need to make it look french for people to buy it and this is you know why this restaurant it what what it is of course you know I have an all-female kitchen so none of us enter this nonsense you know you used a word before which is jugaru which is we all put things together home cooks are like that we are trying to nourish to heal we're not trying to impress and that is the big difference between the food you get here the food you get in other restaurants and I think that I try to explain my story with the food because I think that that's when people get it they understand the honor and respect with which I talk about by food I want them to feel that same respect towards me towards the women who are cooking in the kitchen towards every home cook towards everyone the color of skin I am that's that's very powerful actually and also the way that you like describe yourself as a home cook and not a chef and the way you use stories to identify yourself with the idea of you know being in the kitchen I think that's something that you know can be perceived as so powerful and yet so underrated because I feel like food and stories are the only thing that us as minorities have left anymore and I speak as a woman and not any other kind of minority but you have a lot more layering in that especially back in India and over here so how how has your experience been with like using stories as your weapons or using food as your weapons I don't want to use the word weapon I want to use it as a bridge it's a bridge between me and my host nation it's a bridge between me and the ignorant racist I want to communicate to them how small-minded they are that they can hate me by just hearing my name they can hate me by just looking at someone who looks like me this hatred of someone who is so different goes back to the dark ages goes back to you know cavemen where they would be scared that someone who looked different from there you know might steal their cattle may destroy their may hurt them might kill them but centuries of literature of architecture of poetry and music that people still feel scared of someone who looks different from them I am not willing to have this conversation about why you should accept me I will feed you I will tell you my stories and if you still want to hate me I forgive you because that is part of my faith I forgive you for hating me I figure figure I really forgive you for being small-minded and and not very intelligent but bias is something that I want to break by purely explaining to people in the nicest way through food through music through what I wear stories that I am the same as everybody else and as a woman it's not something that is only south asia yes in south asia from Afghanistan to Sri Lanka it is a woman cooking and in any restaurant in the east or the west where it is you know where you need to spend a bit of money it's all men because no one wants to pay us for our roti because we make it look effortless they think it's valueless and I'm trying to change that but I I have a lot going on with this restaurant with what I'm trying to do but I'm not willing to die till I see someone surpass everything I've done I want to be on the sidelines uploading women I feel the breath of this generation of future leaders behind me I'm clearing the pathway I don't see myself as being on stage forever no one should stay on stage forever you shouldn't block the way for others to come forward for them to be in front of the spotlight this is a very political project this is not it's not even a restaurant this is a revolution this is a battle cry for justice and that's what I'm doing I think I completely agree with that in fact like that was actually going to be my next question my next couple of questions actually how do you bridge the two most traditional ideas of femininity in South Asia which is maternity and cooking because like I've heard you say that your children initially had like a bit of an issue with the homestyle supper clubs that you did what was your experience bridging those two identities of femininity that were usually taught as salvation women that you know you're supposed to take care of your family and you're supposed to take care of the kitchen is it when your own identity is self contradictory how do you sort of deal with that I I've made peace with myself I've made peace with my kids and I think that too many women take too long before they make peace with what what is happening in their lives I just want to give one example as a Muslim Asian woman in her 50s as a sole founder of her restaurant I'm not running the same race as a white man but I'm also not running the same race as a white woman white feminists don't get me they cannot understand my faith they cannot understand my choices and I don't need to explain to everyone that I literally am playing a balancing game every day but women around the world do this they set themselves on fire to warm others and I understand all the kind of obligations that come the expectations that you will feed your kids that you will look after them and I know that it's there are days when I feel I have failed I I cry I feel very angry that I have failed to be a good mother sometimes I feel I failed to you know do all the things I wanted to do for that day but I also understand that you know the night is never endless and you know it's there in the Quran is there in every religious book that you know night is never endless day will come and I forgive myself and I wait for the next day and hope that it's going to be a better day I don't have any advice for women who are mothers I don't have advice for any woman even those who are not mothers on a work-life balance I don't think I've got it right I try but what I have learned is how to be kind to myself it's taken me a long time I've always felt and pushed myself too hard and I am now in a much better place and this is why I always feel that the ageism so prevalent in South Asian culture but so prevalent in the West here there's a vineyard of sophistication but this expectation that you're young and you're dynamic and you're creative and when you're old you don't have much to contribute when you're old you have lost more battles but you've learned to rise and this is why you know I feel that in South Asian culture especially this whole idea that women who are older are not given as much respect are not except this traditional respect of being the elder but not given investment you know you go into venture capitalist you know they're going to watch your agency you can't get a mortgage you cannot get a lease the moment you're older people are scared but what they don't understand is the strength of an older woman we are so strong because we have lost so much now it's like rising from the ashes we will be victorious and that's that's very true in fact I also like correlate that with a lot of literature that like has now started coming out on Mughal women because you read about all of these Mughal men but you don't realize that Babar came to India with a whole host of these really strong really powerful women without whom the empire wouldn't have sustained without whom any of what any of the empires in India would not have sustained and that sort of is a very necessary reminder in my opinion to everyone around and I think that's why stories become such a huge part of or like untold stories become such a huge part of like the way we conduct ourselves especially in India and I think that you know women are never the hero that's the problem and I I think that's so much it is just prejudice especially prejudice against brown skin women but it's there in so many cultures as well that all our achievements are downplayed and all our success is often shared sometimes not so willingly by other family members by your CEO by your colleagues and too many women allow this to happen and I think that you know we need to take back this power that this is this is me this is my idea this is my success and remember this is not about you you need to do something special for the generation coming after you too many women have allowed men to step on them and take away their glory and I say this every time I'm in front of a group of young people who are going to be future leaders I am sewing a harvest I will never reap I'm sewing this harvest for you so that when you are powerful this harvest is for you use it in an intelligent way use it with justice make sure that there is enough diversity equality that women are given equal status I don't think I will live that long that I will see this changing in my lifetime but I want to be able to do something that I clear the pathways for the generation afterwards that's very true and I think you're already doing that this place is proof that you are those women behind that counter are proof that you are and I'm sorry that there is a lot of background noise from the kitchen but this is the thing that it's a kitchen and I apologize for that you'll see a lot of here a lot of noise but as much as possible I'm telling them to try and keep it down but you know that's kitchen noise and it just makes it real you know we are we are in my restaurant it's okay it's a kitchen and it's salvation women we are allowed and we are proud it is what it is yes over the years like I was trying to understand like your belief system and I sort of correlated a lot of that to why I came to so as was because my identity was sort of lost in the the madness that's going on in India so over the years so as I sort of built this image of you know finding your identity as anything but a white cishet person and you found that identity with the women that we were just talking about taking yourself and them from women belonging the kitchen to women owning the kitchen tell us something more about how you make you know befriended these women how you found them how you found your tribe when you like got married and came here tell us a little more about that I what is very interesting especially when you look at you know how food has been used to divide people in India that people get lynched for something that they may or may not eat you know a whole well in a village gets impure because someone who is a lower caste person has touched it but these things still exist they are very much still there I have an entire kitchen of people who are Hindus my entire kitchen is Hindu more than half are vegetarians we realize one thing that prejudice all these cultural baggage that was put on us we are bigger than that this is a collective of women many of them have not even been educated this is really an example you do not need to be educated you do not need to be a from a certain class background to be humane to be understanding to understand equality some of these women who are working in my kitchen this is the first generation who actually even went to school and they are far more progressive than most people I meet so it really is not to do with your background and your families it is to do with your inner belief and your lived experience of understanding that someone treats you as an equal you turn around and treat the next person as equal and I think that that is this domino effect in my kitchen where I have a kitchen full of people who have so different come from very very different very impoverished backgrounds not all of them being lucky enough to be educated yet they all have found their strength in this place and I think you know I met some of them initially 10 years ago as nannies in the school they were cleaners in the hospital they were caregivers in you know in care homes tough tough physical jobs and here they found their calling and I know that some of them still go back and cook for their families but when they cook here in their chef's white they know that when the world looks at them when the community is looking at them this is why it was so important for me for chef's table that I asked them please show my entire team name them and name their village so that they stop lamenting the birth of girls they can see what has happened to a daughter from the village she's on Netflix she's a superstar and I am standing on the shoulders of giants I needed to show my team so that I wanted people to know I am not the Van Gogh I'm not this crazy genius who is doing this entire thing on my own I am as only as powerful as my team and these women understand this they understand solidarity they understand equality and this is what makes this place so magical that's true it and I completely agree with this place being magical because I stepped in here and I was like I feel like home here because and like I correlate that to a scene in like very very initially a very brief scene of you singing with your chefs in the kitchen I don't know if it was here or back in come garden but I think you were singing a kishore kumar song and I was like that's how I cook with my mother and my grandmother that's exactly how it feels to be in a satayushan kitchen with your mothers and your aunts and your grandmothers and your sisters and your nieces and it's it's the most homely beautiful vibe that anyone can ever be a part of and so this this place really embodies being at home yes and the thing is that I don't understand I have a theory so I don't understand I have a theory that the arrogant toxic testosterone driven violent men who are cooking in kitchens they have a chip on their shoulder they don't because for them their childhood memories is where the food is full of feminine energy either their mother or grandmother fed them the dinner ladies were in their but usually you know women in schools so as of to say that oh we are not women we are these crazy mortal combat characters who's going to beat all other women you know throw hot things across shout and be abusive and aggressive because we made this into a combat sport this is not cooking whereas what you describe of women singing together it's not just satayushan irish french italian portuguese all their memories you know of actually women cooking the east of food you know for christmas all the celebrations for us whether it's holy diwali eat it has always been women look at weddings you may have all these men cooking behind but the actual arrangement is the matriarch they're all powerful so somehow we have been sidelined sidestepped when it comes to professional kitchens and people still ask me how does it feel like to work with a kitchen full of unprofessional women and i say wow what is their life experience of years of cooking just because they didn't get paid is this what is the difference between professional cook and a non-professional cook i don't understand this people still ask me and i and you know and people call me chef and i said you know you really want to call me a doctor i'm happy with that i have a phd and now i will have an honorary phd from saras you can call me doctor you can call me doctor twice over but do not call me a chef because a chef is a actually it's a vocational uh you know degree it's a qualification you can do it by going to culinary school or you can just rise up the ranks i haven't done all of that i'm a home cook and you can still call me doctor that's fair that's very fair um so going from this kitchen of women to another kitchen of women that you established back in iraq um i heard the story of your head chef who's now your head chef uh and i heard her very very powerful story of being able to quite literally find her voice again um are there any other stories of those women that you'd you know like to share anything that you heard from them recently you know uh in the midst of all of this that's happening how have they been how have you know how has the cafe been what is their circumstance right now well i mean covid hit them very hard uh it was it was very bad in the camps they shut the cafe over that uh you know the the foundation that is looking after all these women lotus flower has been fabulous they've been able to raise money and this cafe is now back on its feet it is self-funding they are very successful entrepreneurs they are now baking wow in that in those camps they are baking they're selling cakes they're making bread and these women are also doing catering and they are you know because of that part of of kurdistan has got a lot of international agencies it has charities and geos they are the ones who are feeding all of them and they are they are showing how you just need to lift women up bring them hope show them that you care about them there is an incredible power a shakti in women everywhere all you need to do is hold their hand for a brief time i've described this you know i recently came back from a refugee camp um syrian refugee camp in lebanon and you know you could see syria from where i was in the mountains and i was describing to them that you know it's like you know when you light a candle so the flame doesn't go off you hold your hand so the flicker stops then you move your hands and that flame is so powerful now you don't need to be there to hold it and you know for all this hatred and anxiety of migrants and outsiders it is really an indication of how small-minded people are any help and assistance you give them they don't want to be in this position where they're a whole life they're dependent on others these women will go on and do great things for themselves and i think that this is something that i felt at the cafe i have not been back i would love to go back because they are very successful i'm seeing fabulous pictures these super confident women you know doing these little videos doing you know explaining to others how to make their own you know you see the kind of dumplings they're fabulous and the inner confidence shines from them so different from what i met them that's the thing you just need to i don't think people especially um actually not especially everywhere i don't think people understand just how powerful women together can be or just one woman can be if she's just given a little bit of encouragement and like in terms of the camp as well do you think the camp the cafe idea is viable in other places that have some amount of funding you know in camps elsewhere as well yes the main thing is that you need people living in the camp to have access to cash i work with the world food program they have this incredible program of multi-purpose cash that people can go into a cash point of takeout so they don't give them boxes of food or eat they give them cash this works in two interesting ways one is that it gives them back some self-confidence so you know as a mother you can decide i'm going to buy this with my kids i'm not going to buy this with my kids or if you're a couple or you have you want to focus on a certain thing that you for you is a more of a priority you know people's choices are taken away when they are given something instead of them choosing it the other thing is that it lowers the resentment of the host community because you're going to their shops and you're buying things the thing with the cafe is that it can become that connecting point that bridge between host community refugees migrants internally displaced people whoever they are and i think it can be done i have to admit it's not easy the only reason why we have been so successful in with the Yazidi camp is that i went into a place where there was an existing structure there was a lot of confidence because lotus flower who were working there with them and my friend taban had a lot of confidence from the Yazidi community you can't just parachute in into a refugee camp or into a group of migrants and try and work they need to trust you but that can be built and you need to work with community leaders once you have that trust i think this can be done anywhere that's true that's fair um your newest project has been with trying to solve global uh like food insecurity with practical action in malawi and in kenya um what is your aim for um this project and what is what what what was your sort of common point with practical action the thing our practical action really is you know that they actually try and minimize the amount of money that is used for admin uh i know that with bigger organizations you know with all kinds of protocols they often have to the advantage of a smaller organization they're more agile they can move around quickly and there is literally that practical solutions to small things so helping people you know find a way that is sustainable that is long term that is not just short short term you know this whole thing of you know teaching people how to grow crops how to fish how to build infrastructure these things are more efficient more long-lasting also it brings power to the community by letting them decide that you know for us lexity is very important or for us clean water you know is important find a solution to this you know we want to build this wall we want to build this toilet for our you know students they make those decisions they're invested in it they are then going to protect it help build it and then use it in the best way so i that's why i really love working in organizations i do a lot of research before i actually agree to work with any organization because i need to know what are they doing how does it help show me the long-term impacts you know where have you been and i i read about what's happening i look at what you know else is happening other places are doing similar things is anything that i can help them with it's it's not just a relationship where i'm just some you know person who walks in raises a bit of money and walks away i i invest emotionally in charities that i work with that's fair um in keeping with the fact that um the funds that you're raising for practical action is from the biryani sub club food questions uh one what is the difference between for everyone else who's just unaware what is the difference between a polkata biryani and every every other kind of biryani in european other than the potato the kolkata biryani is the best one yes i am biased i am biased but i think that maybe because i grew up in in in the east and where we don't have very spicy food we don't have ghee yeah i know everyone thinks that we all bathe in ghee in india we don't literally is one small portion on panjab where they have ghee they've got paneer they've got rich milk the rest of us don't even have it we have don't even have cows in in pangol so it's really a light fragrant biryani that's what makes the the one that we make in kakata so beautiful that you can eat that biryani and you can still you know work the rest of the day and i and i i think that a lot of other biryanis i like less because they are very rich they have they have a lot of ghee in them or they're super spicy and that doesn't make them bad this is my personal preference i like the biryani of kakata because it's delicate it's light it's fragrant and of course yes it has potatoes yes and see the difference is that when you're having when you have a biryani for lunch it's different from when you have like a match bhat for lunch because match bhat will give you bhat goon yes but biryani will not somehow yeah and it's so much more you know spiced and flavorful and everything it's just it's it's it's it's the best it shouldn't be compared with anything else and the the good thing about biryani in pangol especially everybody loves it in durga puja in e then diwali there are queues outside biryani shops this is the beauty of pangol that people eat biryani to celebrate every kind of occasion and i and also football matches yes and new years you know and this is just what makes pangol so beautiful that's true and for the other food question for the uninitiated what is the difference between a puri and a luchi puri and luchi are different they may look the same same concept deep fried puffs up luchi is made with maida which is white flour whereas puri is always made almost always made with a mix of flour so it is atta which is you know what we make chapathi with and sometimes mixed with white flour luchi is unique to bangol it is soft it is very very different in texture because it has when you pull a puri you know you will have a little bit of a give whereas a luchi will just tear out in this softness which is to do with the flour right now i ask this because i have loads of non-bangoli friends who will come up to me and like you know talk about luchis as if they are puris and i just need everybody to understand that they are two different things very different they taste different they're made differently all of that finally for like a last leg of questions like we talked about earlier your husband teaches at soas do you have any memories going back you know going to campus being there for events anything that you remember specifically about soas i used to go to soas a lot you know when we moved here because from cambridge when you know my husband moved from cambridge to teaching at soas i would go a lot because at that time i i had a place to study uh law at cambridge but i didn't want to stay in cambridge we got terrible memories of cambridge in winter so i actually was able to convince king's college to give me a place to study law i would meet mishthak at soas uh in the evening then we used to often go back home together and that's actually how i also discovered the ramadan tent the beginning of ramadan i saw that these guys were just getting together i could cook you know i wasn't anywhere like you know how i cook now but i offered to bring food and you know we there was this crazy tent every time the wind blew the tent would fly off and we didn't have water and we were running out trying to get water and i had to bring chai and we couldn't heat the chai it was a lot of drama but i loved this you know there was a whole small group of students and i remember that how i felt my first ramadan in this country because for me my memories of ramadan was breaking but breaking my fast with loads of people my family whole table full of food and i remember seeing these students and thinking oh my god how tough this is and i thought this was a great idea and this was 2012 and i think it's 2012 2013 and i've been involved with them from the very beginning at the same time i just started supper clubs in my place so ramadan tent that began in soas and my business that began in my house was the same time wow and we are at we are each as old as each other look at amazing stuff ramadan tent has done amazing stuff our grown of course soas is now you know in trafalgar square haze gallery in you know chelsea football stadium they've done remarkable things and every time i look at them i smile because i remember that we began literally at the same time so soas memories of that but also just hanging out you know with a lot of students of bushta who i knew in cambridge who then had come to soas to do masters so i met them all and definitely i i think that soas had a much nicer vibe a nice place to hang out so since you're here i'm going to get as much advice as i can any advice for phd students who are sort of floundering and struggling currently since you've done yours from kings and everything it is an incredibly hard journey you need to understand that this is so difficult it's isolating you are so vulnerable because you are putting your heart and soul and many years into a project you are obsessed with your topic you know everything you're the world's expert on this you gather a huge amount of of information it's very isolating so even if you are with a lot of people you know recognize the fact that you are alone because only you know all these complex thoughts that are always in your head ask for help reach out to people and you know and i know that soas has you know my college had you know people who were there to talk to you who would just help you in kind of resetting everything it's very important it's so hard because it's a tough journey so the initial bit of our making sure that you're so scared that the something has written a paper on it and you haven't seen it you're obsessed about you know constantly researching then the second bit is when you're constantly having to cut downwards you have so much material you're not gonna with you know you have long acres of footnotes all of this it is so hard absolutely be proud of yourself that's my one advice to PhD students don't allow the burden and the challenges crush you never give up because what you're doing will bring knowledge to the world this is not i know at some point you think this is my project i'm just doing this imagine when your thesis comes out and so many people are going to benefit from it i'm going to read from it look at it as something that you are gifting the world it kind of makes it a bit easier you kind of then feel a bit more motivated because there are times when you lose that fire your flame is out and you just cannot continue and you're just you have a writer's block you're struggling all of this happened to all of us and everybody has finished their PhD okay in the end just don't stop keep thinking keep stay hopeful and your PhD will happen eventually and you will be so proud but i can tell you one thing you will never read your PhD again i have never ever it's been years i have not looked at my PhD again once it came out i finished my viva oh my god i can't better look at it that's fair and i think that's good advice for people like me who are writing their master's thesis as well so and finally um any word of advice or any message that you'd like to leave to the batch of 2023 that's graduating my real kind of plea to all of you is that money is not your bottom line i know there's a lot of pressure especially now with the cost of living and the difficult challenging economic climate in which we all find ourselves that people will find secure jobs and worry about security but i think the most powerful thing you can do is you can actually have a meaningful job where you can do something where you are able to also contribute to other people to help other people and i can tell you this with my own experience that my time when i feel my most powerful is when i look at my women in the kitchen and see them working and i know i played a role in getting them there so whatever you go on to do it is good financial sense it's good business sense to actually be doing some work for more communities that actually need your help the communities around your workplace where your factory is where your office is where you live your walk around you know your coffee shop understand that you can actually raise your community be part of your community you do not have to be this isolated person running a business or working in this you know glass palace where you come in and out of work smile at people do something because this is your opportunity to actually invest in the area where you are so wherever you go and whatever you do i wish you greater success but always remember that you are part of a community and that community looks up to you to actually help them to smile to invest in them and make them feel like they one day will also be where you are thank you so much and thank you so much for this interview and for having us here you genuinely have a forever fan in me you and all of those women working back in the kitchen i'm so so immensely honored to meet all of you thank you so much thank you