 Hello! So this is definitely not the second time of trying with Sir Lord Captain, my Captain, Dan Bennett. For those of you who don't know Dan, if you've ever heard of Ogilby or if you've ever heard of Rory Sutherland, Dan is the guy who looks after the papal science unit at Ogilby and is a great friend, a legend, a gentleman and just knows everything about papal science. One of the questions I always get asked, relatively often actually, is how and how do you get into papal science? And I guess that's possibly a good way to start out. How and how did you get into this world? To this mad world. I think I remember you telling me there was a funny story. Yeah, I'm going to be so much better the second time around, much more articulate. None of the arms and arse. No, there's one way of finding if that's true. Yeah, so originally I actually wanted, the funny story is that I originally was really interested in philosophy, was a bit dyslexic and genuinely selected psychology by Axton at any level, and then eventually carried on doing that. I got six weeks into my philosophy classes, thought they were awesome, but was really confused as to why my friends who had also taken philosophy weren't in there. Turns out I might have loved understanding psychology, why we do what we do, and really took that through to university, and then after that was in that similar space that everybody was in of kind of watching loads of TED Talks at the time and just understanding lots about the discipline. And came across Rory Sotlunds and Dan Ariely's TED Talks. They were entertaining, they were useful, they were something in them. I don't really pretend at the age of 21 that I was understanding all of this. I think that's the stuff that you understand in retrospect, but it felt like there was some massive value in bringing behavioural science to the private sector in a way that you would have, as an outsider, would have just presumed that it was all totally used already. Do you know what I mean? Because you hear those great stories that kind of supermarket spot the smell of bread into the aisle and put the eggs in the back. You just assume that everybody was totally on top of behavioural science, but turns out a lot of it was kind of a lot of happy accidents, so kind of individual consultants kind of driving that. And actually there was a real space for kind of doing it more formulaically. So yeah, so a bit of an accident at the beginning, a happy accident. And yeah, thrilled that behavioural science is still a growing space 10 years on. I mean, I always think you're... I feel very, very flattered and honoured to know you, and the reason why is, I think, one of the reasons... Everyone, lots of people know about Rory Sutherland obviously, but what you don't know is these great people, part of the reason why they are so great is because they surround themselves with amazing people. I think that's true of all of us in life, right? We're all up to a point standing on the shoulders of giants. And I think one of the reasons why Rory is so great is because he knows you. You're always reading a lot of stuff that maybe he isn't, and then there's that sort of... Rory loves chatting, doesn't he? And I see him when he's with you and with your team. You can see, his eyes are just bright, you can see him just feeding in all this information. It must be amazing to do it because you're working at Ogilvy so you get this sort of... You've got a whole wacky creative team as well, which must really help for a behavioural science division. It is, and I think Rory is one of the most open-minded, inclusive people that I know. Do you know what I mean? He is just so open to all ideas. Which has been such a part of the DNA of the business. And actually, we all know that we're in creative environments. There are people that can really thrive in them and then people who just kind of personality just doesn't suit a creative environment. We do a suite of psychological measurement tools and one of those measurements is, I think it's a need for closure or a need to kind of get to an answer. And creative people have the special ability, as you know, to not need to know the answer straight away and can kind of ponder on it and sit on it for kind of weeks, months, years. Or ever. Or ever, yes. Or ever. But there are some people who, when giving a complex question, there's something in their tommy that really doesn't sit well and they just have to get to an answer quickly. And that doesn't allow for the kind of the exploration time often in order to kind of solve some of these bigger, stickier challenges. So a lot of the DNA of kind of, I think, of Rory and the team is finding people with a low need for closure. People that can kind of sit on problems for a while, you know, keep to deadlines, but sit on problems within a while and be comfortable with that. Because often the stickier challenges don't reveal themselves straight away and do take multiple inputs. It's very often that we would solve a challenge and not be consulting in the paper sites practice without having many different inputs and collating kind of many different unknown data sources often in order to get there. So you kind of got to be comfortable with not knowing the answer for quite a while usually. Yeah, it kind of reminds me of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy stuff, you know, that the question is more important than the answer. I think that's probably an interesting insight for advertising. I know more about the questions often than getting exactly the right answer. But yeah, I mean, for those of you who don't know, Dan actually helped write the first ever behavioral science course that we made, which was incredibly fun. But yeah, I mean, I don't know whether it's worth going back to the beginning, sort of before the behavioral science team was, you know, the big sort of multi-national global team it is now, because you're now everywhere, right? Everywhere, and we've worked, I mean, in kind of 20, 30 different countries around the world, many cultures, many contexts, and that has been an amazing thing. I mean, the first two or three years of the business was really about kind of doing lots of the work that kind of needed to be done in terms of kind of just matching principles to context and just kind of go, OK, we've got these, we've got this letter, we've got this call centre, we've got this website. And therefore, OK, we know that these principles of behavioral science exist. We know that if we utilize them, we'd be more likely to be effective. So let's just start to match those principles to the context. And we'd probably call that kind of behavioral tidying up. You know, there's an element of kind of just trying different things with an experimental mindset and getting some amazing wins we had. With an airline, we use the endowment effect. And you know, the endowment effect is that idea that you frame something as being positioned and kind of owned by someone to kind of increase their ownership so they're more likely to act on it. So we changed, you know, when you go on an airline's booking website, you type in your details, you select where you want to go, what class of travel or that type of thing. And then you click the button Find Flights. So we endowment affected that button and added the word my in the middle. So find my flights. And it had a significant increase in the conversion of that button and all the way to purchase. And in the rate of kind of millions of pounds. So especially the first couple years of the business, there was lots of those kind of butterfly effects to be found of having an experimental mindset, testing quite a few principles and seeing what worked, kind of quite alchemic in that sense of just kind of dropping them in and seeing what happened. And you know, lots of non-events as well. And then after that, I think behavioral science started to get a little bit more productised as the questions that came into the practice were less kind of from kind of curious clients wanting to try something new and kind of like an innovation type way and more about kind of really wanting to supercharge their existing efforts. So if it was about kind of changing culture or employee wellbeing or all of these nebulous things that when you think about it, if we boil them down to their kind of behaviours, we can actually tackle them far more powerfully. So you know, if you think about an organisation's culture, it really boils down to nothing more than a series of behaviours that people do. So if we understand that, then we can build kind of behaviour change projects around some specific behaviours that if people did them would be driving their culture. So there was lots more of those projects that came about which was really kind of using behaviour science to kind of as a horizontal discipline to supercharge lots of different efforts whether it was culture or experience optimisation or language development or behaviour campaigns or whatever it was. And then very recently, I think the kind of the future of behaviour science is getting much more towards bringing in data science. There really isn't or shouldn't be much difference between data science and behaviour science. So whether in the past, and it still can be very useful to do this to kind of mix principles with context. The tricky thing about behavioural sciences we don't know which principle works with which person for which behaviour and which context. And so if we can map those together we'll be in a much stronger place. So that's what a lot of our work in more recent years has been about kind of combining that data science kind of audience profiling piece to understand people much better beyond just their demographics, etc. And to be able to kind of have much more precise recommendations of okay, we've got this person with this personality kind of on average, most likely in a second to have this personality. Therefore, this is the persuasion strategy that we can build on. Now let's make something amazing and creative that people love and want to do but that is rooted in all of those insights. So yeah, we're in a different place now than we were 10 years ago. Put it that way. Yeah, it sounds like you've got a better telescope on your gun or something sort of another analogy. Did you say that you were using is it the ocean framework I think that you talk about a little bit and I'm saying this in no way to preempt that we've got a new course coming out with you may or may not touch on some of these things that you're talking about. Yeah, it's possible to explain a little bit more about that fact. So I know you were saying you used that a bit more. Yeah, I mean absolutely a product placement at the top of the screen right now. It's a great example that I really love and people may have seen this online but it's absolutely fantastic which is we all can picture Prince Charles and the Prince of Darkness, Ozzy Osbourne who are two very different people you would never mistake Prince Charles or Ozzy Osbourne in the street but if we looked at their demographics and as we often do in marketing we would see that they are both male they are both born in 1948 they're both raised in the UK both married twice, both lived in a castle and both wealthy and famous if we look at their demographic and behavioural data we would absolutely think they're identical however if we look at their personality profiles if we look at their social and moral worldviews if we look at their cognitive thinking styles and the way that they think and actually think then we would see them as totally different people so it strikes me that it's much more useful not just to rely on whether they're a millennial woman or a Gen Z male the striking is that those things are always going to be helpful for targeting but not always going to be the things that lead us to the insight to know how to persuade someone and so a lot of the work recently has been around really kind of profile audiences based on those metrics and how we can then create kind of product and services that really suit who they are and how they think and it's amazing so if you're not familiar with Ocean or the big 5 personality traits it really boils down to 5 so one of them is openness so are you open to new experiences or not and we all vary on that and as I go through these you'll be able to think of friends and family that are extremes on either end openness tends to decline with age as well and usually it goes down quite fast conscientiousness so you can have a Hermione Granger or not, do you hand your homework in or not creative people tend to be less conscientious and very high on openness so that can be interesting for an organisation of culture for time sheets etc then we've got extra version and introversion and we all and sometimes you can be a bit of a bit in the middle of both but people tend to kind of index either extrovert or introverted agreeableness so agreeable people are terrible at negotiations and you can a lot of that is down to past experiences and the like and then there's kind of emotionally stable or neurotic do you fly off the handle quite easily or not and that's probably that's a very unfair characteristic of the element there but essentially once you know more about someone's profile you can then know how to persuade them a bit better so we have some research to suggest that if you're extroverted which I think you are Chris then you're much more likely to be persuaded by social proof knowing what everybody else is doing whether if you're introverted some situations you're much more likely to be persuaded by loss aversion and people pointing out what you stand to lose rather than what you stand to gain if you're neurotic then you then kind of warning people about the downsize of action is helpful but not to go too far along the journey with that because it would kind of just bring the shutters down it's helpful to use an authority figure with people on the neurotic end of the stale neurotic end of the spectrum because that again helps with that kind of compliancing so if we know more about who someone is we can know which principles to use we know which principles to use we can create those better product and experiences and services that are going to you know engage people did you find something interesting about yourself when you learned about this that's a great question I've always known I'm very agreeable but I think there's some magic I think I'm the same we both agree this is why we should we should never be allowed to have a negotiation together but we but we I think there's something about having things a little bit quantified about yourself which is very confirmatory so I do think there's elements that I was kind of aware of and also it's one of those things where people are desperate to have the right one so you know people think we're being open to the right one being conscientious the right one, extrovert is the right one but it turns out it depends on which end of the spectrum we are it just depends what kind of job you're going at you want you know Roy's amazing example which cracks me every time is that in terms of kind of having people that are open minded and trying new things in creative versus people that are closed minded and follow a rigid process all the time you don't want when you're sat on the tarmac someone who's fixing the aeroplane to go oh let's try anti-clockwise this time against their training you want them to follow rigid processes so there are times when you need a different profile and there's a lot of research to say that the happiest you are is if you've found a job that matches your psychological profile because you kind of can't fake it and it doesn't really change that much it'd be great if there was a tool that existed to have that maybe there is, if there is please let me know if anyone's listening and they know please let us know what was, I mean I know you work with an incredible array of clients are there any sort of interesting ones past or present where you know maybe some of these kind of insights have helped lead you to an elegant, able solution there was one that really won there's more than one but there was one that I really find interesting to talk about because it was a really lateral solution to an age old problem and it was all to do with hand washing and we've all had a crash course in hand washing over the past couple of years I mean I know I'm pretty good at it and most of the time the habit's sticking now which is pretty good however the trick to that was buying expensive soap as soon as I bought expensive soap I washed my hands every single time because I was just loving the smell there's a really great great solution which is not really a kind of an advertising solution that you might expect coming out of a big creative network but it was quite a small solution and so essentially it was it was getting people to wash their hands when they go into a food processing factory and when they leave a food processing factory now this was an abattoir so you would expect that hand washing behaviour wouldn't actually happen because you wouldn't want to bring any nasties into the factory and you wouldn't want to take any nasties home with you to your family however dynamics are how they are and hand washing wasn't happening to kind of the compliant rates that they needed to be and that creates really big challenges because if you don't have the right level of hand washing compliance in the in the factory it becomes almost a billion dollar problem because you have you know collectively so you have to pay a fine to the brands that you're doing product recall on, you have to do a product recall you have to close the factory, cease kind of production and you know take it deeply in the entire place and then obviously lose a bit of kind of reputational gain then you start to lose contracts ongoing so just because we can't get the right level of hand washing in the factory has you know ongoing knock on challenges so and you know for decades they tried every trick in the buck so they tried paying people more to wash their hands they tried paying people less if they didn't wash their hands, they tried group incentives, they tried group disincentives they tried the blue lights, they tried the education everything you can imagine just doesn't always get to the right level of habitual hand washing that one would like so what we were able to do is kind of travel over there, this was in Chile I think and audit the environment for those really small elements in the environment that might be kind of nudging the behavior either way and from there we were able to kind of really identify the missing prompts and the interventions that weren't really working what we managed to develop was quite a lateral solution so it was essentially we developed a hand stamp it was a hand stamp with a sticky ink on the inside that we developed and the sticky ink took the same amount of time to wash off your hands as was the amount of time that you have to wash your hands for so you would have your hand stamped before you go into the hand washing bay you would then have to wash off that sticky ink which would mean that you're washing your hands for much longer and much more compliantly and then you would leave the hand washing bay either with a stamp saying you basically haven't washed your hands quite a social signal or a clean hand and you could carry on and we were doing quite stringent measurements and overnight we saw a 63% reduction in dirty hands by the presence of the stamp and no one at the beginning of the process is what I find really interesting no one at the beginning of the process would have said to solve this category billion dollar problem it would be through the power of a stamp you'd think there would need to be some kind of regulation or scientific intervention or structural intervention but in fact the power of a little sticky stamp is the thing that made the difference and it even made the difference across all shifts the night shift is the one where you get some quite quite different hand washing compliance rates because the management aren't around it's the cloak of dark and there's all those types of things but it worked across all shifts and it kind of works in perpetuity too so it's one of those kind of unexpected solutions that that I think that I think what I think really special about behavioural science is that it's the missing seat at the table I don't think it should be the only seat at the table I think it's quite arrogant to think that behavioural scientists and no one else thanks can solve this one and I think in the early days of behavioural science there probably was a little bit of need to prove the discipline and so I think kind of by inviting behavioural scientists designers researchers all together people with an innovation mindset and creative people as well behavioural science and creativity is a great combination for solving some of these stickier challenges then we're starting to solve problems that other disciplines by themselves can't and so kind of working at the intersection of those things is actually getting us to solve challenges that haven't been solved before and I think that's the value add to behavioural science I think that's the if someone said what's the purpose of it you know I think it's to unite interesting disciplines to solve problems that can't be solved by kind of a a mono solution so I think that's what's really exciting that's why even though it's a story about a sticky stamp it's actually a story about so much more really so much to unpack on what you've just said I've had a lot of comfort incredible story so congrats I mean a couple of things came to mind one was just as you were closing up there thinking actually I think over the years sadly the importance of advertising and their place in companies has sort of laddered down somewhat it's I think where advertising used to have a seat at the table when business decisions were being made back in the day I think that's very rare now and it's interesting that sort of sounds like behavioural science is one of those ways to help get that seat back and it's it's a yeah it reminded me of that thing that Rory often says which is advertising in advertising our job is often to make the new familiar and the familiar new and it's I think it is that perfect bridge between maybe the business side of things and the creative side of things where you can maybe explain why the creative works a bit more because often I think the reason why advertising is put aside is because you can't really explain you're working or you're thinking that sort of it's not like you're in your own accounting where it's like I did this and so this happened I think adding the behavioural science bit maybe helps with that maths bit it's the you know we did this and so this happened because of X, Y and Z I think that's fascinating points so firstly Bravo and secondly just going back a little bit more into what you were saying is how on earth did you get to the solution of a hand stamp apart from you know were you doing a lot of clubbing when you were out in wherever you were in South America we got the hand stamp the inspiration from working up with a hand stamp on our head sadly not sadly that wasn't the case but a lot of the way that we get to the solution is through lateral thinking techniques and lateral stimulation so what do we mean by that so there's an element of what we believe is that every problem has been solved it just hasn't been solved in your category yet so what's really helpful what you were saying about behavioural science being this kind of codification of persuasion kind of this idea that it's a codex for how to change people's behaviour by boiling down challenges to their psychological components and the psychological barriers it allows us to then hunt outside of the category in a much more sophisticated way to find how other people have overcome challenges of non salience for example with the hand stamp or a lack of social feedback that's what all the things the hand stamp was doing was giving you the idea that if I don't wash this off I'm going to have a little bit of awkwardness when I leave here because I've got my dirty stamp on my hand and we get a lot of that by going okay let's hunt for lack of social feedback or lack of social compliance let's hunt for that in a range of different categories from the military to how airlines work to how far and beyond to get the inspiration of the kind of the mechanics that they use to overcome those psychological challenges and then we'll make it our own and we'll do it in our way, in our category but we'll get that, that inspiration I think one of the best things that behaviour science can do is open up the solution space if that makes sense to kind of get us to rather than just having a good think about how we shift someone's behaviour let's have a more systematic and a frenzied exploration into how how all the mechanics work and then let's use that as creative stimulus to come up with our with our own way if that makes sense yeah it makes a lot of sense and your break is it so congratulations stop it the the other thing that I would be remiss not to talk about is nudge stock I wondered, I mean it's nudge stock when we're recording this at the end of May we're not too far away from from the 10th anniversary of nudge stock and I think you've been around since the start I think if I remember rightly and I mean it because it started off as sort of a bolt on to another festival I think if I remember rightly I mean I'm saying all this as we again this is we're about to launch a totally free course celebrating nudge stock we've picked the best talks from each of the last 10 years and made it into a little course for everyone but yeah Dan I thought it would be amazing if you could just share a little bit about how it started and where it's gone to how it's evolved and then maybe where it might be heading and lots of unpacked there for you absolutely no and we're so excited about nudge stock it's on the 10th of June it's going to be 10 hours long so it's going to be pretty easy to remember in that sense and it's the 10th year as well so 10, 10, 10 that was actually quite a fluke it wasn't actually much of a design but we're very lucky on that so yeah so it began as so our co-founders of the business Jez Groom and Rory Sutherland had the idea for the event and to really kind of galvanize a community around this kind of different way to solve challenges and I think they had a belief in the early days to that Babel Science applied in a creative way would solve challenges that other disciplines can't and to work in that intersection could solve challenges that other disciplines can't and so the festival began as as you said we were into prototyping so it started as kind of an addition to digital shortage which was a great place for us to start and we galvanized kind of hundreds of people around this at the intersection of Babel Science and Creativity and we had some amazing speakers even in the first year we had Laurie Santas who's a great expert in monkey nomics she now works a lot more in unhappiness we had Nassim Taleb and the list goes on and on and for many years we did it kind of different seaside locations so we did it in Deal we did it in Folkstone and we took hundreds of people to Folkstone and to Deal to kind of experience the best of Babel Science Creativity what's what's the seaside fascination apart from this good to get some sea air so the first one was that Deal had Rory Summerhouse nearby so I think that was convenient for him but the real reason for going by the seaside was that it's taking people to a context where they would think differently so we didn't want to create yet another we didn't want to chuck yet more money and yet more stuff into London where people would kind of nip across for a couple of hours and then nip away we wanted to make sure it was a festival that people were kind of brought into and so we picked it by the seaside put it in a context where you would naturally think differently and actually kind of like step out for the full day and we also made it a great experience used to get a little gin and tonic for the train ride home and all that kind of thing but the idea is that you really want to make sure that the 500 people that came were a complete kind of believers and really up for it so we had a great great community feel and then the pandemic struck and we went online and I think in the first year we had over 120,000 views of the content so it went very quickly from kind of 500 to 120,000 although we all miss our trips to the seaside it's amazing to be able to engage especially as our team has become much more global to engage a global audience and kind of the speakers that were able to get last year we had John Cleese it would have been harder to get John Cleese to focus on I imagine but it was really I would have to take the whole conference where John Cleese is to be honest but kind of the quality of the speakers are amazing and this year it's our 10th anniversary and so we've got some a great suite of speakers we've got Maya Shanker who's the paper scientist at Google and newspaper paper scientist at The White House we've got Milena Vinsky head of behavioral science at IBM and does a bit of their AI work as well we've got a super secret keynote speaker that I'm not allowed to talk about yet but keep an eye out for that and it's going to be everyone's going to love it it's going to be amazing and we've also got Dan Pink talking about his latest book as well so it's going to be an amazing amazing day we're doing we're also this year because the downside of a physical conference is you don't get to meet like-minded others you kind of just sat there watching the TV show broadcast at home so this year we have built a custom built metaverse that we're calling the nudgeverse so basically a massive virtual art gallery that people can walk around they can learn more about behavioral science they can watch old nudge stock talks they can learn a bit more about the metaverse as well and speak to our partners but they can also speak to each other in network and hopefully people are going to and you don't need the headset for that it's even better with the headset but you can do it through your browser as well so hopefully people are going to really enjoy going into the nudgeverse this year as a new addition to the nudge stock family wow that sounds amazing who have you built that with out of interest a company called Acaster a part of Ogreby okay awesome looking forward to that what were some of your highlights and some of your favourite talks in the past years apart from the ones that you've done yourself of course favourite talks I thought it was such a special moment when we had John Cleese at nudge stock because it was one of those people where we always pride ourselves at nudge stock of trying to get people who either don't do the normal speaker circuit or if they do they do something that's quite bespoke to us and we'd found out that John Cleese was kind of secretly kind of best friends with some kind of top psychologist and was really interested in the psychology of creativity and but he hadn't really spoken that publicly about it for kind of many years and so when we approached him and we talked about it I think he enjoyed it speaking to his tribe as much as we enjoyed having in there and so it was a real kind of I think we feel like we discovered talent we're not saying we discovered John Cleese but we certainly managed to kind of find but we certainly managed to find another side of it perhaps exactly and I think Rory and John have been kind of best friends ever since so that's what we're going for this year and I think you're going to see a lot I don't want to spoil the fun for everyone but on the Friday the 10th of June there's 10 hour content that can be pretty special that's amazing and to find that you just need to go to I think you've got your own website as well isn't it? So is it just nudge.com or is it .co.uk nudge.com and the tickets are free you can sign up now and it takes just a couple of minutes and it's super easy you'll get the emails and then you'll get your invitation to the nudge first as well so yeah definitely nudge.com as soon as you can it's definitely the best thing you'll do all year as far as events go it's incredible and next year are you looking at perhaps possibly doing some sort of a hybrid thing or I mean obviously the digital side of it it's so huge now it'd be crazy to stop that but yeah do you think you'll get back to a hybrid something in the next year or two it is something that we're exploring it's kind of tough because you have to make a choice about where you put the attention for the audience and the presenters so if we do do hybrid is the focus the tens of thousands of people at home or is it the 500 people in the room do the tens of thousands of people at home overlock the in-person event or do the people at the event overlock the TV broadcast so there's all those kind of questions we've had some mad ideas in the past we did have an idea and we were very serious about it it was very nearly happened to host NudgeDoc at a theme park so we were planning to close the theme park for the day host NudgeDoc at it in a big venue in the centre and then during the breaks people could go on the rides and so that may one day still happen we're also curious about holding it in a big top but that's very logistically difficult in the summer because the British weather is so unpredictable there's also a chance that we would broadcast kind of live from around the world which would be amazing kind of like a live aid style go from all the different regions that we operate in so there's lots of different lots of questions up for debate so we genuinely are curious about what the Nudgeverse does this year whether it becomes a place that people can network or whether it is a bit of a fad it's really hard to know so every year we experiment I mean last year we did the big behavioural science workshop where at the start of the day we were briefed live in front of you know all the people at home and then the team worked throughout the day to do the work and then to present the work at the end of the day which is kind of terrifying and exciting at the same major so every year we do something different so perhaps next year, perhaps it'll be in a theme park, perhaps it'll be on a cruise ship, I mean who knows but we're hopefully not going to follow convention put it that way it won't be in a convention centre yeah I love the idea of doing it it's sort of a lego land or something it would be brilliant fun or Disney, I mean there must be a client in a boat or be somewhere in the world I know we've got some Disney people on 42 courses so we can make some phone calls after this and make a plan can I just say we could all go to Disneyland Paris or something or yeah I mean or the big daddy of Walt Disney World I genuinely think it's not cool to say that even when people say what's your favourite brand I've really wanted to say this for a while that people say what's your favourite brand oh it's Nike or it's Google all the great things that they do but I genuinely think that Disney is one of the most impressive companies on the planet and you can see at its heart and you know from the very top to the very bottom and kind of the acquisitions that they make and the rate of growth that they have you know almost 100 years on it's just incredible the way that they're able to charge so much money for Walt Disney World you can go to the Maldives for cheaper I think genuinely if you get the right hotel and yet they don't have a price perception issue the way that they're able to use creativity to create value is insane I was watching a video the other day and you can pay thousands of dollars to go and stay at a Walt Disney World resort and they can have awful construction on awful construction because they're always making it kind of bigger and better and the way that they solve that problem isn't through offering massive discounts for the hotel room it isn't through getting ahead of time and getting you staying at the hotel and potentially not selling in the room they give you and we often kind of pin badge isn't it a big collectible item in the parks they give you a construction pin badge a limited edition construction pin badge for staying in the room that has construction in and you may get barely any complaints because people are so happy to get this limited edition pin badge you know I stayed at Walt Disney World Resort and it was under construction and you just think that's an amazing creative, lateral, minimalist you know intervention I don't know like many other companies that would get to that so I think Disney is one of the most impressive organisations it's just not as cool to say that in the marketing circles but I think someone needs to say it I feel like Piers Morgan No, I 100% agree with you I think it's a remarkable company and I think parts of the reason in my head would probably be that it's got a it's had a very clear and very solid foundation and vision laid out by its founder from the start and it's still followed and by and by companies that do that tend to be quite successful I think it's no fluke that Ogilby out of all of the other massive ginormous ad agencies it's one of the few that's still Ogilby if you think of Mayanar or McCann a lot of these other sort of massive agency entities have joined other brands or are now brand X and Y joined together Ogilby sort of remained it's just Ogilby and I think the part of that is because of David Ogilby's sort of foundation that it was built on and the habits that are on place if anyone wants to look at that if they give you Google David Ogilby habits you'll find lots of blog articles talking about it I think I write one myself but yeah I think when you have that foundation it just makes things so much easier gives people without you having to say it out loud all the time people know what they've got to do and they know what the company values they've had at doing that and it genuinely is also why people love Tesla partly so much maybe yeah agree I think it's a lovely place to land on a nice place to finish and and a nice point to ponder but Dan I adore you and thank you so much for being you and for taking the time to chat with me all with us and yeah I wish you all the very very best with Nudgestock I'm over the moon incredibly proud to be a tiny part in helping to sponsor it and yeah thank you for all you do and if you want to listen to Dan then obviously there's a couple of behavioural science courses on quality courses you can take and there's a new one coming up very shortly too that will launch at Nudgestock so yeah Dan thank you so much and thank you Chris I wish you all the best and to just say very grateful that you've made the Nudgestock course because I think it is a the Nudgestock content over the years is an absolute treasure to me it's a massive team that put the heart and soul into kind of bringing the very best and the very most unique people for Nudgestock and so to be able to take a course that walks you through the best of that I think is going to be absolutely all killer no filler so thank you for that cheers I'll chat to you soon thank you so much take care