 Okay Oh welcome everybody we're going to bring the meeting in order at 707 oh for And welcome to the town of Williston's Development Review Board for Tuesday, November 28 We've got a number of things on the agenda for tonight. We are going to go slightly out of order We are going to start with the two certificate of appropriateness requests starting with AP 18-091 Which is the I'm going to switch that AP 18-071 of Williston Federated Church We'll open up hearing up here at 705 Lam if you would state your name and your address I'm Tony Lam and I live at 24 BB Lane Williston, Vermont. Welcome Matt that you yes So as you said, this is AP 0071 also HP 08-03 HP stands for historic preservation and this is a Application for a sign to be used at the Williston Federated Church. It's in the Williston Village National Register historic district where Small projects that wouldn't normally come before the DRB are required by our by-law to come before the DRB Not under our normal discretionary permit regime, but as was called a application for a certificate of appropriateness And the DRB considers these on the advice of the historic and architectural advisory committee This is this is a sign proposed at 60 inches wide by 36 inches high mounted on posts With a maximum 5-foot height and a minimum 5-foot setback from the front yard property line in front of the church The applicant has indicated on their application that the sign will be used in a temporary manner the by-law we have Doesn't say a lot about signs that are allowed when they're temporary versus signs that are allowed when they're permanent But it is understood by the staff and the applicant that this sign is proposed to be used for a limited period of time 120 to 180 days specifically for the purpose of fundraising for the restoration of the church steeple This project was reviewed by the Williston historic and architectural advisory committee back on November 13th of this year the committee recommended that a Certificate of appropriateness be issued for the sign with just a general condition that material sign design and location be Used as the applicant has shown So we see it in front of the church five-foot setback wooden posts no more than five feet high There's a there's a rendering of the sign you should have in your package as well Great, so it's 120 to 180 days enough time to raise enough money to rebuild the steeple $240,000 I don't know why we We the problem is that we plan to change the steeple over in May and we hope to have do the bulk of the fundraising between now and then and After that, I we I don't know what we'll do if we don't have it if we don't have enough money We'll continue to raise funds, but I don't know that we use the sign Cation forward. I assume that's not Extend the sign application or the sign permit. I assume that's not too big a deal So, you know, I would encourage the board to review this as if this sign was going to be there more or less forever In other words, it should meet those standards in our by-law, which it does It meets the height and dimensional standards and the material standards The applicants project description calls out 120 to 180 days If if the applicant of the board would like to agree on a lengthier time Just to soon have it come out tonight and noted on the application Rather than rather than having said it as a timeline, why would you say that sign stays until they build the I'll put an end date, but I'm trying to say is what or or until the the money's raised whichever comes first Make it a simple sentence What have we said July 1st there their plan is to do the work in May Given it's Vermont and it's outside work July 1st might be a better Other questions on board. Is it is a black text on my background as it's shown was that the idea? Yes there's a color picture of the steeple in the left-hand corner and there's a Thermometer, you know fundraising thermometer. I was thinking you should use a steeple instead of a thermometer, right? Any other questions from the board any questions from the audience comments from the audience, okay? Thank you Just a good luck. Thank you. We're gonna close HP 18-13 at Next up HP 1804 or AP 18-091 town of Williston and For a sign in front of the Williston school is town of Wilson here We are you are I'm happy to walk the board through this one So this is now take your name in your address. Sure. I'm Appalachia 18 Barrett Street, South Burlington, Vermont. I Can play both both parts for this one So this is a sign for Williston Central School. It's on the town property Adjacent to Williston Road and Central School Drive The applicant has provided a proposed location for this sign So it's it's east of the sidewalk and the governor Chittenden statue set back from the road a bit and The purpose of this sign is to identify that you know back through the park is Williston Central School and also to provide the school with some ability to Identify special events that are happening there on a temporary basis without having to resort to banners and other sorts of things that tend to wander all over the site and and not look as good so the proposal is for an area for copy of 36 inches high and 64 inches wide with Williston Central School across the top and then four lines of changeable copy as shown in the picture That you've got with your application These posts are to be no more than six feet high white painted wood The base of the sign is required to be landscaped and the applicants are aware of and understand that This was also reviewed by the historic and architectural advisory committee due to the signs location In what we call the additional review area, which is an area adjacent to the National Register historic district Where we follow the same procedures as we do in the district and The hack did recommend approval of a certificate of appropriateness for the sign again with the conditions that the applicant Build it out of materials and in the location as proposed No conditions requiring changes to the sign Exactly, where is the sign proposed to go and is that what this little black speck? Yes So that's that's about That's about 75 to 80 feet east of the sidewalk more or less aligned At a setback similar to the governor Chittenden statue on the green And about equidistant on the library to the edge of the library building. Yes Is there a reason to point that in the middle of that open space as opposed to closer to the sidewalk? Yeah There's some concerns about visibility People leaving central school drive particularly turning left There's there were some concerns Still are some concerns regarding the placement of the bus shelter in Williston Road And so you have the bus shelter the statue a couple of trees there So the the idea was as represented me to get away from that vision triangle While still being reasonably related to the school property Is that going to cause any problems that with other uses of that open space? Given given the spacing of the trees in the area It's it's fairly close quarters in there anyway I mean it wouldn't be in the way of somebody wanting to you know run around or play ball It's it's not where the tents get located when the town's you know the Chowder Festival happens or anything like that So I would I would say no it's it's in a pretty good spot that way other questions from the board questions from the audience Comments, no, okay Matt, thank you for coming Close HP 1804 for the town of Williston At Williston Central School at 714 Okay Back to the top of the schedule. We're gonna open up DP 18-07 Burlington beer company. Come on up gentlemen Welcome if you would both state your names and your addresses, please You've got all the G4 design studios 77 college Street Burlington, Vermont for the architects Steve Gile the G4 design studios the address is 77 college Street, Burlington And then Joe lamina from Burlington beer company 25 Omega Drive Are you gonna be talking as well? Great and I'm hard of hearing say your first name one more time Amanda. Very good. Thank you Okay, Matt. All right This is a request for pre-application review for some changes to a site and building at 25 Omega Drive in the industrial zoning district West the applicants operate Burlington beer a production brewery with a tasting room and some sales area out of the property currently and Are looking to expand the brewery on the inside of the building and are also looking at expanding Some of the accessory uses to the brewery as well as making changes to the site to add parking Enhanced pedestrian access around the building and provide an outdoor seating area this Sort of set of changes. There's there's a couple of things going on on the site There's a couple of things going on our outside on the building But we as a staff encourage the applicants to bring this initially to the board as a pre-application to get some feedback on how the board views the Applicability of the by-law when it comes to accessory uses and accessory sales So this is in the industrial zoning district West Any kind of manufacturing you can imagine Essentially is allowed in this zoning district including the manufacturer of beer and in the industrial zoning district West and in the zoning by-law chapter 17 dealing with accessory uses There's a range of things you can do that are considered Accessory they they come along with Primary use that's allowed in the zone and some of those things might not be allowed if they were by themselves so if you make Chocolates and want to use a small amount of your space and your chocolate factory to sell chocolates at retail You can do that Have a large manufacturing facility and you want to Offer an employee cafeteria food service. You can do that if you have a gym Which is an allowed use in the industrial zoning district that gym might be able to have a snack bar for example, and in this case as Many folks are familiar with Burlington beer like a lot of breweries Operates a tasting room and tap room adjacent to and as part of the brewing operation The board may recall some news a few years ago when the planning commission looked at this issue Where Burlington beer in particular wanted to also be able to serve not just samples of beer But whole pints of beer all in one glass And that's important because in Vermont in order to do that You need a type of license that also allows you and requires you to sell and offer some food for sale So Burlington beer came to the town and said to sell You know 16 ounces of beer in one glass instead of four a Sample flight we have to also be able to serve food and you don't allow restaurants in this zoning district And that was true at the time The by-law was changed Chapter 17 was changed to allow for a limited amount of area in a Industrial use to be dedicated to the accessory sale of food and the accessory sale of food In fact comes along with as an accessory to the sale of whatever is manufactured on This was if you were making beer you could sell beer on site You could sell beer for consumption on site and you could sell food in a limited way that would allow you to do that and operate the way These breweries are operating this day and age especially around here the Challenge Burlington beer faces in their application is that chapter 17 on accessory uses Limits the size of the area that can be dedicated to an accessory use and so There are two statements about this One is about accessory sales and says that accessory sales shall not occupy more than 10% of the floor area Not to exceed 1,000 square feet, whichever is less of the building in which they are located and Then if you go down to the newer section that the Planning Commission recommended in the select board adopted related to food sales The discussion is around this use called limited service eating place Which is you know the kind of food that's typically served in one of these tap rooms? And it says shall not occupy more than 10% of the floor area not to exceed 1,500 square feet Whichever is less limited service eating places allowed on this provision may be advertised to the general public Shall be part of the limited area defined above in 17.2.3 1 which is the 10% for sales So staff has had a few opportunities to issue or review permit applications or to have Conversations with applicants looking to have these sorts of accessory uses in the industrial zoning district West and On page four of the staff report. You'll see a little Table with a breakdown of some of the sizes and areas that we use when we think about that But my takeaway is that the staff has generally been To the letter and quite conservative in interpreting this so the first thing that has come up in several cases is Well, my building is a hundred thousand square feet. I'm one of five tenants in the building Do I get 10% of a hundred thousand square feet? And the staff's interpretation has been no you get 10% of your tenancy my loss is building staff has said tenancy and You know among other things one of the rationals for that has been well if if everybody if five tenants all had 10% of the building you would have a building that would be right at 50% accessory in use and and we would be undermining The intent and purpose of our zoning that allows certain uses in certain parts of town and not in others So that's the first thing The second part is part of Burlington beers proposal before you tonight involves an outdoor patio area Staff's application of this when asked the question has been that that outdoor seating area And its area is part of that 10% And that that would be that limitation would apply to all finally the 10% for sales and the 10% for Limited service eating places which says it has to be contained within the 10% area for sales Staff's interpretation has been that those things are not additive, but rather you can do limited service eating places It has to happen inside of the same 10% That the accessory sales happens inside of so Looking at the numbers really briefly Burlington beers proposing to expand their tenancy in this building to 9,500 square feet They're proposing an indoor accessory sales and services area of 1,520 square feet and an outdoor patio of 980 square feet So under the way we've traditionally Looked at this the way we've always looked at this you're talking about 2,500 square feet of accessory sales and service area associated with the use that occupies or is proposed to occupy a little less than 10,000 square feet. So it's a little over 25% looking at it that way And then I've just identified at the end of that table, you know, 10% is 950 square feet whether you look at it for sales or services With services meaning the food park the planning commission did allow for up to 1,500 square feet Staff's position would be since since you have the bylaw piece that says sales happen in a thousand square feet Services have to be contained entirely within sales, but can go to 1,500 that a Reasonable interpretation would be to allow somebody to go to the larger of those two numbers to go to 1,500 square feet What so what the applicants looking for is in excess of the way the staff has typically Administered this bylaw and this is the first time a Proposal like this has come before the DRB for your consideration I've given you the numbers here. I've given you a brief breakdown of some of the other proposed site changes But my recommendation to the applicant has been not to proceed with a discretionary permit application for any of this Until they can get some feedback from the DRB about how it sees accessory sales and accessory services In the recommendations I've drafted for you of which there are four Number two Talks about 10% and talks about whether the DRB would apply as the staff has 10% of the tenancy within the building or 10% of the building which is the way staff has not traditionally done it in which would lead to a larger number maxing out as much as 1,500 square feet Number three in those recommendations is drafted as a will will not consider The proposed outdoor seating area as part of that 1,500 square feet that's allowed under the accessory limited service eating place Standard in the bylaw I'm also recommending in here that the comments of public works that were submitted and That if this were to move forward that the applicant provide a shared parking study looking at the uses On the site and whether the additional parking they're proposing is justified one of the other caveats about accessory sales and services is They're not supposed to generate a demand for any additional parking in other words Whatever parking is shown on the site should be justified by the primary uses that are there and not not any accessory uses on top of it I Hope that I've laid this out in a way that's clear, but Please you know this is tricky stuff and there's a couple pieces of the bylaw that are interdependent here But I'll stop there Great Your turn well Thanks, Matt Like I said basically right now Bernalton beer occupies about 40 hundred square feet of the of the existing facility They pretty much like to double the size of that the other half of that size will be new storage area but the main concern here is Expanding their production Tasting area and seating area The main concern is there's it they're just demand for that People come in they want to see a tour of the facility what they want to sit down have a beer You know check out check out everything going on. They went bill sit down for a couple hours Maybe have it some to eat And there's a demand for that for this type of for this type of industry for for home for this type of industry So that's what you know what I wants to do So basically that's the main focus of this is To be able to satisfy The need of his business and his customers is for that for that expansion 50,000 unique sales just out of the tap room and anywhere from 75,000 to 100,000 visitors coming to our tap room just this year We're expecting that to grow again next year. That's nearly a thousand people per week that are coming to see us We're going to generate over a million dollars a revenue just out of the tap room That's not including distribution sales to the state of Vermont. I think you can Look at breweries, especially small artisanal ones like ourselves. You can see the same thing happening in the south end of Burlington We are having to kind of adopt their industrial areas into more of a maker space and allow different types of artisans to set up shop and as a small producer To to make it work on this scale and so by giving that experience for people to come to the brewery and not be crowded I mean, we can't tell people to not come to our brewery Excitement to get them to come from Connecticut, New Jersey Florida Maine wherever we can't turn them away. We need to create a comfortable spot for them there and we just want to Which in writing has to do with the 10% of the building and I think it's It should be looked at what the bylaws are actually written is one thing and I mean It's one thing to choose to not follow the bylaws, but I think they the words mean something You can't pick and choose which by laws you want to follow or not follow So if the state's 10% of building size I'm just curious as to why we can't just follow that And have to go by possible misinterpretations of the bylaws You want to walk you want to walk us through want to walk us through this the site plan changes 1500 Anyway Especially with the day was get air a lot of times that's a seasonal business Already lined up down Omega Drive parking semi-illegally along the road there just to get into good air So we're trying to also spearhead fixing that problem for other tenants of the building One question I have for you this additional 15 parking you bring along the back wall along the side there Yeah, right there Have you I'm just a curious have you run this by the the other renter was it Berlin city or whatever it is Well, his truck to be able to get in there and oh his trucks will definitely be able to get in there currently He has double parked cars illegally all along that green space and in that area there Thank you The latest Consider all the of ours It'll be well licked the deck outside improving the lighting in the parking as well Our closest the deck to the daycare center over at the edge just out of curiosity, you know Wouldn't expect it there wouldn't it be over this direction Is it the edge over to the right? I thought it was I thought it was diagonal right no no CSEs back there at the edges definitely to the bottle And if we have to we're we're proposing that you know if we have to put a higher screen there just for that For that one side on mega drive, you know, we'll do that So I just was curious. I don't do we have do we have a lot of that effect? What about about daycare centers or schools relative to places to serve? beverages do we Okay There's there's multiple steps in the regulation of the sales of alcohol so The sale of alcohol in terms of our bylaw Typically it's accessory to something else. So we don't for example, we don't allow bars Outright we allow a restaurant that can sell alcohol as part of their operation and so They're you know, there may be within the towns with the control ordinance There may be other things those are administered by the select board and then there are whatever requirements exist within state law So food food service in addition Yeah, we so we currently have what's the what's what's the plan on a what's what's your plan on the food service and So we currently have food service ready to get the restaurant licensed to be able to serve the full pours the way Matt mentioned earlier So we continue food service Continue to abide by Vermont State codes and all the applicable law there What hours of operation hours operation currently we're open 12 to 7 or 8 Monday 7 days a week Looking into next year 11 to 8 or 9. So not too late. There's There are hours of so are there Matter can hours of operation This is an accessory that's an accessory use the hours of operation follow should follow the hours of operation of the brewery not Correct. So is there is there there any limitation on that at all? not real My point being is that I guess my question or my point being is that the restaurants not driving the brewery the brewery is driving Restaurant You know in terms in terms of space obviously the majority of the space is is dedicated to the industrial use But you know, it's not uncommon for a manufacturing use that has a tourist draw like this If you go to Lake Champlain chocolates on a Saturday, they're not doing a whole lot making chocolates But they're selling a lot out of the retail accessory use in in Burlington, for example And to give some other talking speaking of Burlington to give some reference to other breweries in Burlington zero gravity Their taproom in relation to their total space is over 30% and that doesn't take into any outdoor seating as well as switch back I believe is that 32% of their total space of their taproom that also does not include outdoor seating And so I mean they're in a situation in the south end of Burlington that doesn't seem to be putting on these Size of their retail operations and is allowing these breweries to grow and be healthy The same way we would like to do in the same business environment I know we have a fellow brewery right in the same IZDW and we would like these same rules to apply So he can have them as well So not held back by this 10% rule and I know we did talk about Matt about splitting up and looking at the accessory sales a little bit differently and the accessory services differently and kind of Giving X amount of square feet to each one Since we do do a robust sales of people coming in just looking to buy cans and packaged goods to go and Then also people coming in looking to get flights or sit down and and have some food So we are going to set up the new layout have a POS Multiple areas where it's more of a grab the packaged goods to go and then the another area where people can come up get the The services to stay and so we were hoping as well with kind of doing those two Accessory sales and accessory services out of the same space to be able to combine those two and that's where the 2,500 comes from The 2,500 the 10% isn't really the restriction here I mean if you can max out both of those I mean I mean it depends on I guess the which wording you want to go with with the by-law the 10% Wouldn't be a big deal if you went with the actual language of the by-law saying the size of the building instead of how it's being Interpreted as 10% of tenancy, so I think that is a sticking point that needs to be addressed of whether we want to follow by-laws or whether we want to follow interpretation of by-laws I Guess there's also the need to get so so there's a thought up to so no the number can't be more than 2,500 And according to the by-laws exactly and and so that's the upper end that's the upper end But how it's being interpreted it possibly could limit us at only having 950 square feet, right? I'm afraid of because that's basically Smaller than we are now It could work, right? Yeah I wonder if there's an opportunity to like you know if there's if there's the 10% allocation for the entire building if there's some agreement in place from the other And owner or the building owner and the other Lee sees that they're willing to give up the rights that get air Can't come back and say we want if at most there could be 10% of the entire building used for retail sales or accessory sales And they can kind of apportion that out Chair will second that And I would point out, you know the challenge of jumping forward to 2500 is The language about the food sales says shall be included in the area described, you know and again a strict interpretation says we're trying to include 1500 inside of a thousand which You know, there's there may just be an issue with the way the by-laws drafted there An extremely liberal way of looking at that would be to say it's all got to be in the same part of the building And that's you know really there's there's there's just enough Here for me to have said to these folks Why don't you apply to the DRB and and get some findings and some answers about How they want to administer this because the site plan review is going to come in front of them anyway And you don't want to go to the work of figuring out this whole site plan and then have it You know have the numbers not work in the eyes of the DRB when it comes to the accessory sales and services Just one off the side It says that they're supposed to be fire department notes in the staff notes I didn't notice them the reason I asked that is because I saw they put us that they're going to have a silo With an actual access from the outside which makes that a confined space so I was curious if the fire department come commented on that that Did you know that that they would need a confined space plan, you know rescue plan just in case they open that hatch Let me see if I've got their memo here They wouldn't I they didn't say anything like that Typically fires given that given that this is pre-app. That's probably not something we need to worry about Other questions on the board I guess I just asked you to clarify for me exactly what How you would like us to interpret Um Because I'm a little I'm a little confused at what you're saying. I mean, I'm a little confused by it all as well We need to go by the bylaws. We cannot change the bylaws from this table. Yeah, definitely Yeah, I totally understand that and that takes a multiple year process and that's nothing not anything I want to do Um, I'm just I understand too that at the same time We're not here to hold up business. Yeah, so you know We're sitting here listening to you. We understand what your needs are we think and you know and we'd like to see you know You're succeeding. We'd like to help you succeed some more Within the confines of the bylaw. So go ahead and yeah, I guess I and I guess I'm just wondering what Going beyond 10 of my tenancy Why is that so bad like what's the issue there? So it's not so much the issue of why is that bad is How it's interpreted and how it's written within the bylaws and we are here solely to interpret the bylaws We're not here to write the bylaws as you've already alluded to that somewhere else Okay And also I think the other gray area the outdoor seating right Matt because in the bylaws is nothing really For or against outdoor seating. So all the all the bylaw says is It describes, you know the space dedicated to this use and it and then it gives you those numbers the maximum and the percentage You know typically when a restaurant or a food service, you know wants some outdoor seating It has at least triggered us asking the question as to what it does to the intensity of the use in other words We don't you know, we don't just pretend it doesn't exist. I think I think when chef's corner added their deck You know, there were some questions In front of this board about you know, what does that do? Is there trip generation? So You know as as a administrator of the bylaw, I wouldn't by myself go out on a limb and pretend that You know the patio somebody wanted wasn't going to generate some level of use but It is it is true that the bylaw in it in the way it's worded anticipates this happening inside a building And pretty much anticipates it happening inside a single tenant building So it imagines it imagines in my mind a big industrial building Where 10 not to exceed 1500 square feet gets used for this accessory stuff As we've as we've come to learn and understand Our industrial zone contains uses and users who are far more complicated than that And this is one of them Now what would be the threshold needed to be able to add the two? the accessory sales and accessory services What would they need to produce to allow us? I mean maybe this is a question before but allow us to add both together and not just look at one or the other I think they'd have to convince you That what included in the area means is included in the same part of the building In other words, I don't think there's a path that says you necessarily get to add 1000 to 1500 I I think at its most conservative interpretation. It says 1500 has to fit inside of a thousand That's a conflict we need to deal with in the drafting of the bylaw You know I mean, I think you said it in your opening comments the gross floor area of the eating place Including all food preparation storage and areas shall be part of the limited area limited area and shall Not occupy more than 10 of the floor Those are those are the exact words of the bylaw As it exists today. Yes Just to clarify would the intent of the deck be to serve food out there? Like would you be waiting on tables out there? No, no I have a dream. What does it have to do with what the deck looks like? So the deck is basically just to give the a similar experience to what's going on inside outside on the Short amount of And so it would be no table service people would come in Get their food bring it out And and basically and hang out outside. So really it's just a similar experience to inside But just trying to get some more seating outside really Are you currently limited in how much beer you can serve to visitors by how much space there is for them to consume it? um I mean Or by how many taps you have and you're pouring continuously as fast as you can and there's plenty of place for people to Go to drink. Um, I mean, there's definitely times where you'll see people Maybe leave early and not do a full stay because there isn't enough room for them to comfortably sit down Would the dining room be closed when the deck was open? Uh, no, no we have potentially More people there when the deck was open Uh, yeah, the deck would allow us to get an additional 25 seats. Our plan is to have Four bathrooms total and via Vermont restaurant code that would allow us 25 seats per bathroom and 100 seats We would do 75 seats inside during Um the red You know normal part of the year and then the additional 25 seats of the deck during the warmer months We currently have 50 seats 500 square feet includes the addition Yeah, 9500 square feet the total footprint of the whole back of the space there where all the brewing equipment is where the big walk-in and mill and augers and Loading docks and all that stuff are does that include the deck? Um, the 9500 is not a clue the deck. No bigger addition right then you take it. Well, yeah Right, um Other questions from the We have any questions from the audience Any comments? Okay, other questions from the board any more David No, what's that? One more time from the audience anything else from the audience any comments I know Um, well, I guess if I know if I don't know if this matters, but um on that on this chart on page four Um Available accessory sales, you know, it's 10% not exceeded 1000 square feet allow allowable accessory service Um, it's 10% not not to exceed 1500. So combining those two is 2500 which we meet Um, and then of course the gray area is like the staff mentioned about 10% rule to be used for Tennessee So that's You know, that's kind of grayer. We kind of want your feedback on hopefully, you know It says, you know combining the two sales and services unless man. I'm reading it wrong It's 2500 and that's what we're at for sales and service Okay We will take that up under deliberation and we go into deliberation And with the current expansion, we got the million dollar loan early this year So all that equipment is going to more than double our production capacity So we are going to be sending more beer out in the state and generating twice as many jobs So right now the plan by the 2018 is to finish the year at almost 2000 jobs. We currently have 12 full-time employees and two part-time employees So looking forward to generating more jobs for wilson as well Thank you for coming Okay What's up is dp 09-01 amendment number 12 for snider fc properties llc and riley properties llc This riley is going to accuse himself because we do have a financial interest in the project Pete is going to take over for me. Thank you I don't like Oh really? Oh I don't like that You guys ready How are you chris? You guys ready? Okay, if you would state your name for the record, please. Yep. Chris sniders snider homes and ro with lamarown dickinson Thank you staff you're up okay A couple housekeeping notes. This is an application for a discretionary permit To construct a hotel building within the finney crossing project. It's a 100 room hotel proposed within the overall finney crossing project excuse project Primarily actually solely built out currently in its residential form, but with proposed commercial Coming including this hotel the proposal includes parking and appurtenances outdoor lighting A green and a reconfiguration of some of the access streets including the way holland blaine enters the site There is also a proposed master sign plan this application Which will be the beginnings of the commercial master sign plan Currently only includes signs for this hotel because it is the first at the request of the Chair sitting currently i've just run off a Recent approved final plan sheet of finney crossing Showing the original configuration of the green element This was a hot item of discussion At one of the advisory boards at the historic and architectural advisory committee So the chair had just asked that I make sure everybody have A copy of that so it's just one sheet if you want to pass around and that's all that is just an approved final plan From a prior iteration of finney showing the old configuration as opposed to what you see on the boards and in the staff report in front of you There are a few other Clarifications and corrections. I want to make the staff notes. I'm just going to do those in line as I work through it But stop me anytime as I go through the project if there are questions from the board for sure So as I said, it's a discretionary permit. It's to build a hotel reconfigure a street build a green build parking outdoor lighting and appurtenances And also an application for a master sign plan, which has its very own Staff report notes and motion for approval and I can handle that separately Project history very briefly finney crossing originally received drb approval in 2007 Uh following that there was an expiration of some of its residential growth management allocation, which necessitated a reapplication and reapproval approval of the project by the drb in 2011 That approval dp 0901 is the number we've used ever since going forward And that approval also happened under a version of the town's bylaws that are almost identical to the bylaws that exist today Prior approval was under the old williston zoning ordinance, which was substantially Different so the project didn't change the bylaws did and in 2011 the drb found that the project complied with the new Bylaws as adopted and the project continued to move forward There's been a number of subsequent amendments. Um, they now take up almost two pages of the staff report when we write about finney crossing But i've listed them there I would say that going forward I would probably if the drb doesn't mind just Document the commercial amendments in reports about the commercial end of the project since the two are pretty well geographically separated on the site But for now I gave you the whole thing plus the the very first Round of commercial review, which was the pre application for this hotel and this hearing tonight The proposed use here is a hotel the north america industry classification system Number seven to one lodging is listed as an allowed use in the taft corner zoning district and lodging is what's proposed staff has recommended of finding a fact that the proposed use is an allowed use in the zoning district There's a new structure proposed you have a design of it in the submitted plans The building is proposed not to exceed the 36 foot height limit in the taft corner zoning district There are other buildings in the finney crossing project that do exceed 36 feet That's because those buildings generally provide more than 30 of their parking demand and structured parking Which is one of the ways that a building in this zoning district can go to 52 feet instead of 36 That's not proposed here. This building fits under the 36 foot height limit There's new site work Related to this project the construction of the beginnings of holland lane from williston road Back toward the a residential buildings The construction of the Central green adjacent to holland lane and adjacent to the hotel and the pedestrian extension of curtis lane Which is one of the things that the hotel fronts on on its long edge there Also the access drive back toward the taft corner shopping center to the west and the parking area behind the hotel Adjacent to the stormwater pond. So those are all part of this proposal before the drb There are other commercial buildings identified along holland lane and along williston road facing zephyr road and in a parking lot sort of back behind zephyr road and Building f what's the street next to building f Market street. So those are other Just commercial footprints in parking areas that are identified anything you see that's a light gray building There or a parking area in white is not currently part of what's under review by the board We would anticipate those to come in in future phases First correction, I said no subdivision or boundary line adjustment There is a proposed lot being created around the hotel So I need to correct that and there are some other property lines that need to move Related to the reworking of holland lane. So there is a plat element to this Um, I've reviewed that there's there's no reason to Think that there's anything that can't be approved about the way the plat is changing for this component of the project There is outdoor lighting proposed. I've prepared a table analyzing the applicant's proposed outdoor lighting Williston looks at outdoor lighting in terms of Total amount of lighting per acre Maximum amount of lighting on the ground at any one point on the site as well as the relationship between the brightest place That's lit and the darkest place that's lit So those lumens per acre Maximum lumens on the or maximum foot candles on the ground and the uniformity ratio all comply with the town's standards So the site would be lit not too bright evenly And not too bright overall or in any one spot I will mention there are draft conditions seven and eight in the bylaw or in the Staff report right now, which are boilerplate conditions. We use about lighting that talk about dimming or turning off lighting Prior to open and you know following the close of business prior to the opening of business I do recognize that a hotel is essentially open all night long And that those conditions are likely not applicable to something that operates 24 seven in the way a hotel does If if the board wants to redraft those to make it clear that they understand they're approving You know a development that includes something that's that's open all night long That's fine or they could just be stricken in this case Or they could be left the way they are and they're just not especially relevant to what's being built In terms of setbacks in landscaping Most of the proposed landscaping that comes along with the hotel use here is in a street tree or parking lot landscaping configuration So normally when we talk about landscaping we're talking about side and rear yard setbacks and and buffers between uses You do see a landscape buffer to the extreme Last of the project between the storm water pond and the back of the taft corner shopping center where we do have a required Sideyard buffer the remainder of the landscaping you see is in a street tree configuration along Holland Lane and around the edges of the park um Or green and around Some of the other street facing green spaces or the pedestrian way that extends Curtis Lane in front of the hotel But that that one side yard buffer does appear to comply with the town's requirements as it relates to that The street trees you're talking about essentially having at least three major trees every 100 feet and the project does comply to that There is parking lot landscaping providing shade in the parking lots as well You can see that proposed behind the hotel There's no outdoor storage proposed the access to the hotel is a drive That's part of the four-way intersection at Holland Lane And market street And the parking lot is accessed off of that. There's also pedestrian access to the hotel On that extension south from the end of Curtis Lane. So the street essentially turns into a pedestrian way in front of the hotel Um in terms of traffic generation the town will Look at traffic generation in the case of finny crossing Uh, the vehicle trips generated by finny crossing Have been offset by the construction of zephyr road Which is a major transportation improvement desired by town and on the list of projects that the town's able to spend Impact fee money on so what that means is if if an applicant builds a piece of something that We would otherwise spend their money on they don't have to pay us that money because they've gone and built the facility So the finny crossing project has credit against its impact fee liability in terms of vehicle trips It's still in excess of the impact it would be creating because of the construction of zephyr road There is a requirement for parking generated by this project Parking generation for a hundred room hotel is calculated at one parking space per room So a required number of spaces at a hundred the applicant is showing 101 spaces Required a da spaces handicapped spaces is six the applicant is showing six Required outdoor bicycle spaces seven the applicant's showing seven The applicant's got a note on the plan about long-term bicycle spaces Which is essentially indoor storage for employees and long-term users also at seven and As well as provide an end-of-trip facility otherwise known as a commuter shower within the building All of the requirements staff sees as being generated by the parking demand In terms of shared parking the drb did not ask for a shared parking analysis for this piece of the project You don't have a shared parking analysis because right now there's just the one commercial user and The bylaw doesn't really talk about sharing parking between residential and commercial users and at this stage staff wouldn't recommend it There will be future commercial development most likely on the site And a share analysis would be required at that time to see if there's the ability to share some of this hotel parking with the You know the next commercial user Next correction under water and wastewater somehow I left a sentence in that said an on-site wastewater disposal system was included There is no on-site wastewater disposal required here. The applicant is proposing to connect to town water and sewer services And to utilize allocation sewer allocation to do so other utilities Electric gas etc have been shown on the plan set And have been reviewed by our public works department who did provide a comment memo and I'll go into those comments in a little bit There are snow storage areas shown on the plan places that you could push the snow from the parking lot and staff just has some Recommendations there come straight out of the bylaw about making sure that landscaping stock used in snow storage areas Is salt tolerant and can generally survive having snowplowed on top of it in the winter There is a plan in place for dealing with solid waste trash and recycling containers The main requirement here is that those be located somewhere that you don't have to walk past them on your way to a major entrance of the building And that they be screened from view and both of those requirements have been that This project is in a part of town that's subject to chapter 22 of our bylaw, which is titled design review There are some particular requirements in 22 Design review those are quoted in part in the attached Historic and architectural advisory committee Transmittal to you they they're in the form of A two-column table that looks like this I had looked at the hack and we had drafted Recommended findings that the proposal complies With all of the points of the designer view standards I did in one case under the Discussion of relationship to the street I left in a boilerplate phrase that said hack recommends following condition to ensure compliance And then they didn't have a condition to recommend there I would recommend the board either strike that or simply find compliance with the relationship to the street requirement of the bylaw Staying on that point for just a minute This was a matter of discussion in front of both the hack and the drb at pre application The board may require the hotel was originally proposed adjacent to the storm water pond with the parking lot effectively in front of it One of the recommendations coming out of the drb was to swap those two elements on the plan the applicant has proposed to do that And so while what the hotel faces on on two sides now We're really on three sides aren't named streets so much as they're you know street like access drives with with pedestrian facilities And in the case of the extension of curtis lane a a wide sidewalk Staff would recommend that that really meets the intent of what the bylaw says about having a relationship to the street The idea is number one not to have a big giant parking lot between buildings and the street in the zoning district and number two That it enhances the pedestrian friendliness of the district So it's across it's across a major padway from the proposed green and then it has frontage on these other two drives And then the parking lot is in the back The historic and architectural advisory committee also had a lengthy discussion about the change to the configuration of the green and hauling lane So this is why I had passed out to the board this old approved design from finney crossing and and mostly to talk about This big central green that had been thought of in the preliminary reviews of finney crossing up until the point of this proposal so hauling lane boxwood street coming in across from shaw's Terminating at market street in this t intersection and then driving around this large central green with the hotel building Today being sort of in this area up here. So the applicants proposing to change that they're proposing A four-way intersection with the access drive market street hauling lane The green is made somewhat smaller and pushed closer to the hotel As well as adjacent to another building That hasn't been proposed or designed yet G I believe h sorry g's on the other side So this is what the applicant has proposed to do they've proposed to change the size of that green the hack members Could not agree about whether this street change and change to the green Was something they wanted to recommend the approval. So You know the considerations they they put into that disagreement Were that the t intersection felt like more of a village center feel That having the park more central allowed both g and h to have some frontage on it Concerned that the t intersection would slow traffic more than the four-way intersection might That the t intersection has originally shown would eliminate the on-street parking and whether you whether you think on-street parking is good or not as sort of You know, they just said well, there wasn't on-street parking before and now there is Along that bend The other concern on those on the part of those who did not Like this change was the lessening of the significance or size of the green on the site And I left the the last Discussion point there as an is is not that the park size is or is not adequate and and so There was a bigger park now. There's a somewhat smaller park There were members who felt very strongly that it that it shouldn't get any smaller than it was originally shown Um, I will point the board to some of the language in the bylaw that talks about the appropriate sizing of outdoor spaces Uh, this is related to the idea of a sense of enclosure that when you're in an open space, you don't feel too exposed Um, and the way our bylaw expresses that is that generally green spaces Should not be much more than twice as wide as the height of the adjacent buildings Um, so the adjacent building we're dealing with right now is a hotel that's 36 feet high And the width of that green is about 122 feet. Is that am I correct on that? Okay, so it's 122 and it's 130 something deep so it actually Still exceeds the guidance that our bylaw gives about the upper limit of the size of these green spaces Um, I you know, I think I think the hack had a fairly lengthy discussion about the function of this space the relationship of it to the buildings The street configuration There was one member who felt strongly that that what the applicants are proposing was a better street configuration because traffic would actually Flow a little bit better than everybody coming off willson road and immediately finding this, you know, left or right decision at the T so Right now in your recommended conditions. I've called out the hack transmittal as and As I usually do and say, you know final plans address all items and it includes this hack mellow There's a challenge in that in that some of what the hack has communicated to you is not definitive either way and and so that needs That needs work by the board to craft a decision to make sure the board is getting whatever conditions It feels it needs for this project to meet the design standards in the district um The the other hack recommendations I skipped around because I wanted to get through the green first I it's a little vague where it says in number one the view down hall and lane for most of the road could terminate here If a feature was added Here What here means was more apparent in the context of the meeting minutes And it's a green space adjacent to the parking area for that middle a building And essentially it's the green little green space that you would see if you were standing on williston road Looking straight in hall and lane So one of the discussion points of the hack was if there was something added to this a landscaping element A seating wall a fountain a statue really anything with some sort of Gravity to it that it would help people's view Have something to terminate on sooner as they look down hall and lane and again Some of that is is for the applicant to respond to and some of that is for the drb to consider Whether that's important to you the advice from the hack The other recommendations from the hack The members agree that buildings g and h need street entrances as shown The bylaw is going to require those buildings to have entrances on the street Absolutely, and they are shown those buildings are not under review as part of And lastly the hack members do agree that visual connectivity between green spaces of the remainder of the commercial Is important This is the idea that When you're in those green spaces or in those public spaces on the site You should as a person walking around or on your bike Feel some connection between them feel like you can access them between the buildings and the parking lots So whether that's making sure that they're visually connected Making sure that there's pedestrian or bike infrastructure that leads you in between them Some of that Would be part of what the board is looking at tonight But a lot of that is really an admonishment to the applicant as the site plan evolves in the future About making sure it's the green spaces aren't too broken up When the project was originally approved under the old zoning ordinance back in the early 2000s, there was some viewshed language related to Views through the site of the Adirondacks or the green mountains and that that view language went away in the new bylaw And that in general is understood in a different way in this bylaw So as much as anything that reflects a little bit of a Remembrance of that I would advise the board to Consider whatever language is pertinent to this proposal That it thinks is necessary in terms of Continuing to provide a design conscious pedestrian friendly environment, which is what our bylaw says it wants Out of development in the taft corners district We did also receive comments from police fire and public works There were no comments issued from the police department Again my boilerplate conditions do reference both the public works and fire comments One one comment from public works discussed Or rather asked for more input information from the applicant about the need for a four-way stop And I assume that's at the market street intersection It would be illuminating I think for the board for the applicant to just describe that conversation as it's taken place to date Lastly recommended action I have prepared recommended findings of fact conclusions of law And conditions of approval as I've described that would allow the applicant to file final plans and pursue permits for the project Those have been drafted for the board You and I think I've mentioned all of the ones that I wanted to call out that might need to be Modified or worked on by the board that I'm aware of and I'll stop there Okay your turn Well, thank you very much for your time tonight And welcome to the two new members Who are participating in a finny crossing review. We've as matt has described There are many applications and modifications that we've had Since the original application Was submitted probably in early 2000 Two or 2003 So we've certainly been in front of the board and reviewed this project over many years Just want to give a little snippet of what has happened already at finny crossing To date So this is the overall project As we originally envisioned it And today, uh, there are 222 residential apartments that are currently occupied So those are located in this area There are currently 131 homes that are occupied and We currently have 51 apartments under construction right now And we do have approval for I think it's located here along the northern boundary Or the southern bound the northern boundary of the bell to easement line So there is a bell to easement line that flows along here And then also continues along zephyr road And that's for the demarcation point of the residential to the commercial zone As we have currently permitted We're looking forward to constructing our first commercial building at finny crossing the hotel and everybody's been asking since 2002 or 2003 When are we going to start constructing some commercial buildings? And here we are we have our first opportunity to move forward on that and excited about that opportunity This application, uh, we did come before the drb And we did listen and understood some of the concerns and comments that were presented and as matt mentioned We have relocated the building And so what we did we flipped The proposed hotel used to be along the storm on the basin We have moved it over to the eastern side of the property line We actually really like that idea Because of this pedestrian access it creates an activity and activates this open space and park area directly adjacent to the hotel We uh We also wanted to address the site line along a common link So one of the comments both from the hack and from the drb was, you know, visual aesthetics from this intersection that already exists And what we have done is created a 10 foot wide Planting area with street trees in that and we think that that really creates a buffer of a visual buffer if when you're coming into the Into the neighborhood the connectivity is also important Because of the grid streets we always talk about grid street grid streets within the town And this is again another grid street that will connect all the way through And go all the way down to zephyr road. So there's another access point and and allowing people to move throughout the neighborhood We um We are focusing this application is both on this section of road But also in primarily this quadrant right here. This is the northwest quadrant of finny crossing commercial And uh, the other areas so the southwest Southeast and south or northeast will be coming in as we Propose other projects or other buildings. We will be in front of the drb for each one of those applications for site plan approval and discretionary permit applications um I think it's important to note Matt's comment about the size of the green and the location of the green or park It is important to note that The size did get a little bit smaller, but it also we did a couple of other things by Changing how it's organized within the neighborhood or within this particular property We have eliminated what was what's happening over at maple tree place, which is an isolated park space Uh surrounded by vehicles and parking and so by having buildings on two sides of this park We feel that we're going to activate this Open space park area more than what What we were going to have in the previous applications So I think that's important and also the size the size Is recommended in how big or how how small is recommended within the drb or the bylaws and We believe that the current size Of 122 by 132 feet is more in keeping with what the intent of the bylaw is There was one comment within the staff reports from public works about Narrowing the sidewalks to five feet in our in The I we think it was a long hauling lane And what our preference is to actually leave it at six feet And the reason is is that we have parking along the edge of those roads along the edge of hauling lane And when somebody opens a car door In your park there you have to envision that there's got to be enough space for somebody to still be walking by when somebody opens A car door. So that's why We're requesting a six foot um And I think the staff report is very clear about Our application and certainly here to answer any questions Or if Andy has anything else that he'd like to add at this point Okay, thank you I'll kick off a couple questions. So the hack had recommended a design feature To to break up the the visual corridor from Williston road You had already mentioned about the street trees um, I believe the site plan that the hack was looking at included the street trees and they still were um We're looking for and recommended some type of design feature And I was under the understanding that there might be a design feature That would emerge at tonight's meeting. Is that true? That is true So, uh, based upon the hack recommendations Andy has created a new of rise area here along the Northwestern side of Holland Lane We've also eliminated a couple of parking spots On the western side of Holland Lane that were in your previous application And what we're planning to do there. Andy you want to talk about that a little bit? The fact we got from the hack was to create an area is you're coming down Holland Lane You're coming down Holland Lane coming in from Williston road you approach the intersection something in this area to screen the parking and then the To have to make sure that a2 is your your backdrop and not the parking lot Um, and so what we've proposed is we've got the seating wall stone wall Is a feature in the little pocket part right on the corner? Is to extend that and have a couple of sections on either side of the entrance sidewalk going into building H the The entrance for that building is going to have to front on Holland Lane. That's the way it's laid out now Use hasn't been identified for that But we would continue that wall And then have a little area here That would sort of be a pedestrian refuge area And one of the things we had talked about with the hack was having some element there that would have some height to it. So Right now we've just got Continuation of the the seating wall behind that with the idea that there would be some sort of a structure to provide some Covered element Under that hardscape area that's outside the area of the right of way Um, exactly what that looks like. I think we'll come with building H You know, the two have got to complement each other. There was discussion with the hack about possibly having um The the post and beam type um structures that ccta uses for bus stops The buses aren't going to come through here. They're going to stick to willison roads So, you know, while this might not be a bus stop, it might be an area Where people could either pause walking along Holland Lane Or an area where, you know, you might be waiting to get picked up From the parallel parking spaces long Holland Lane in front of building H But I guess the the the concept is there would be some sort of Of covering element to that hardscape area But the design with that would come with building H that the two could complement one another And as chris mentioned we eliminated A couple of parking spaces back here And the other thing that we had talked about with the hack was regardless of what happened there Was to have some larger trees on the background to provide a little bit of a backdrop to that area good um My next question is Chris you can certainly answer this but probably probably for Andy Is could you describe how the intersection of Holland and market street? Is going to work is there is it just going to be two stop signs? We propose that it's a four-way stop four-way stop and Probably the primary reason for that is to give pedestrian's priority You know, if you're not stopping on Holland Lane It has the potential to really separate the east from the west side of the road And you know, we don't want to have an obstacle to traffic coming and going Um From the commercial area out to williston road or from one side to the other But we want to make sure that pedestrians have the priority so that you don't feel like you've got to drive from one side Of the street to the other And that's really the primary reason for the four-way stop there It's not so much in terms of traffic control. It's really to give pedestrians the priority And I would add to that, you know, we we constructed zephyr road And one of the things about zephyr road is it's supposed to be the link of The grid streets and so if you're going around Tafts corners, you're going to come through maple tree place like I do every day and Come around and connect through there onto zephyr road and that's really meant as a collector road around Tafts corners. This is a neighborhood street And should be considered as a neighborhood street with the stops and pedestrian access points Yep Andy in your traffic review. Did you consider Any backup queuing of cars During peak traffic times coming off from williston road hitting that first stop sign And and and filling that available space Roger did look at that and I think his concern was more with traffic leaving and there are the the two As you come Headed towards willison road. It doesn't it shows better here You know, you've got a single lane, but then it widens out to two Lanes exiting. Um, it is only one lane coming in, but I think that's about it's mentioned in the memo It's about 375 feet so there's a fair amount of room to to queue up there if needed So that so that was considered by roger. Yeah, okay Thank you. Uh, any other questions from the board I'm looking at that original plan and it had what I would consider a grid street, which is a bunch of straight streets with 90 degree Intersections as a grid like Manhattan or whatever and now I see a nice curved suburban type lane Which you're calling Holland Lane even to the point where the name of the street has changed From boxwood street to Holland Lane And I'm just trying to understand the compelling reason To reconfigure Holland Lane Why I mean this was approved with the grid streets and you're asking us now While there's no buildings being located on the street to change the entire configuration of the road The road pattern in this in the in the development I think there's a There's a couple of things i'm not sure is Matter ken can jump in i'm not sure is the streets Within the commercial area obviously zephyr road was always envisioned as a grid street But the streets while you're certainly looking for connectivity between neighborhoods and connecting the hamlet to finny and finny to Telcott road that The interior streets were necessarily envisioned as grid streets either in terms of their Inclusion in the grid street study that the town has been pursuing for a number of years or in terms of their geometric layout If you look at while we do have a four-way intersection that You know relates fairly well To the t-intersection you'd have here But coming in here, you know, if this was a three three-way stop You're then taking the left and immediately taking the left or right So the proximity of those two intersections has the potential to be problematic as it did with Holland Lane coming down here And these two intersections being problematic And I guess one of the things that I would note You know this With the exception of the residential area Which was revised when we first came to the drb With the conceptual plan review The commercial area is largely unchanged and was the result of The community input and committee that developed the plan and i'm not sure as they were necessarily looking at proximity of intersections Um in some of the things that Are shortcomings to that particular layout in terms of the proximity of the intersections to one another But there's a there's a significant Of the I would call it the pride of place Of that green space that was on the original plan Which is at the terminus of that entranceway into the development and by Creating now is and I think this is what the hack was getting at as I would interpret it Is that you know somewhere as you come down there? There's something that you can see in front of you and in in this original plan It was a fairly grand gesture and now you've got something that you're comparing to a bus stop And so I think Let me finish. I think there's a significant I think we all have to admit that there is a significant difference between what Has been on the table and people are looking at here And what you've got in front of us I didn't intend that that the the landscaping feature we were talking about Was in any way to be compared to the to the green space or the common. I think those were two Very different elements and in different discussions What the hack What we got from the hack was is you're coming down haulen lane They were looking for something at the northeast corner of h to screen the parking lot that was behind it There was a lot of discussion with the hack about the two green areas And the size and the location of those in relation to the street, so you know the The landscaping element I touched on was not intended to to replace But but it was a totally separate in reality it is because as you drive As you come down boxwood street on the other side of route two Or yeah, too, and you look straight through What do you see at the other end of that well of that visual corridor? Well, I think there's one thing that's substantially different is you there was no landscaping I mean just a small little island proposed in the original application If you look at what we're proposing here, this is a 10 foot wide island And treescape on both sides So I think that when you're sitting across the street at boxwood And you're looking into the neighborhood Your visual sense is actually going to almost stop At the at the beginning now you're making an argument for not putting the trees in Well I think it would be very similar to coming out of marsh lab looking straight into maple tree place, right? You've got the LA of trees and the central that's correct and an island, right? Right, but what are you looking at beyond that beyond just a row of trees? That's that's my question and that's why we can all have different opinions about this But as it stands at the other end of that Originally there was a nice big open spot There's a very grand gesture there with something centrally located And really a place off of the street and away from the traffic to Have your your pedestrian, you know your respite from the from the noise and then the hustle and bustle of the street And as you've got this drawn that's not really there and it's nothing that you can see There's nothing as you're driving by and you look into finny crossing that you're going to see That's going to give you that sense I think the other one other thing to keep in mind is chris pointed out You know, you've got the the larger median island here as opposed to I think david's point You know looking into maple tree place versus looking down marsh lab and marsh lab side. You've got a very narrow median island similar to what's on zephyr road now that's Although it's nicely planted with Perennials or annuals it's much different than the median island landscape with trees on the other side I think the other thing to keep in mind That those trees are located between the bike path in the street And that the bike path will be on the edge of the right of way And the bylaw requires that those buildings come up to the edge of the right of way. So You know, while you've got a fairly long corridor or fairly wide corridor the width of the right of way 100 feet to look down It's going to be framed by buildings on either side I'm not necessarily disagreeing with the configuration of what you're now calling haulen lane I don't like the continuation of haulen lane is that curved road and that that Additional pavement is determinists of that entryway into finney crossing That I think the t-intersection was a much more elegant and successful Solution and I'll just I'll stop my question here. I mean, you know, we were clearly not agreeing Flow perspective. I think that would be a nightmare. I think it would be right, but If all we want is good traffic through through willison and this is great If we want a place that looks good and is enjoyable place to live, I think we can do better I also don't see how this I mean We're a little bit away from what you're really here tonight for which is this hotel Which I like You know, so again, I'm not I'm not trying to oppose this project But I'm worried about us approving something tonight that's going to tie our hands in the future And not allow us to have this be the best best plan site that we've gotten well I can let me Jump back to how we got to here And why We reconfigured The street One we hired a landscape architect to come in and look at our overall site plan. This was probably 18 months ago And he said Based upon what I've seen at other locations that in Uh, both locally and in elsewhere that the big green at the end of the place with Parking all the way around in roads on three sides. It doesn't work. It's too big Number one. Well the bylaws sort of Agreed with that That perspective and then when we said, what do we do and how do we make these spaces more activated and more usable? And the idea is put more buildings create more frontage along the green spaces And focus the attention of those buildings onto that But at the same time we also know that we need to deal with vehicles So how do you deal with vehicles and getting them into the neighborhood or into the commercial space and Rather than having two side roads Curtis Extending down We've essentially eliminated a road here and put in a pedestrian access. So a full wide bike path And what we have done is continued to have some parking Along both sides of Holland Lane To one reduce traffic speed but also to make it feel like it's a neighborhood And it's an area in which you can you pull into and I will guarantee that Once building H and building G are constructed and they face the street One you're going to see if you're pulling in here, you're going to see this front portion of building G And when you're at the stop sign right here, your visual perspective is going to be a building G in a building H So yes, you have a terminus and but it's a building And you'll be looking at those facades versus just Open space. This space is also more usable. Um, and we've created these seating areas, you know, all along and throughout all the neighborhood Pocket parks Areas that people utilize There are a lot of people who already live here and they're already walking along Zephyr along the bike path Uh, every day All night, uh, it's amazing how many people I see on that bike path And what we're trying to do here is create more smaller spaces To fit within and around the commercial buildings So I certainly understand and in Agree that it is a change no question But we also are a reality of what the Marketplace has shown us across the street is that those isolated park areas don't Don't Work I'm not advocating for an isolated park area I'm saying that that's a very important spot as you come in on axis from across the road Into this development that to have it be the continuation of a road that didn't exist before is not It's called pride of place It's it's that's an important spot and you're doing nothing but putting the end of a curved road onto it As opposed to I mean, it doesn't have to be a huge space. It has to be something important And I would say that the relocated end of Holland road isn't an important thing That's that's not giving that it's it's value And so I think there are a lot of other ways to do that And I think that it wouldn't even take a tremendous amount of creativity To do all the things that you are talking about and still maintain the importance of that location How about if one just threw out there and I also don't want to be designing this from up here because that's not our job One thought that's design related that comes to mind you could fit 130 foot roundabout in here and Actually probably save on your on your ass you'd have less impervious And then you put something in the middle of the roundabout Is that something that you know that could be kind of that visual Terminus point a statue of Locate Thomas chin into there. Yeah And you get your kind of for it's a for you know the control there slows down cars Now if you now now with you having So hold on one moment please I was thinking more just from a visual it would be a visual but definitely not the usable space Where is this useful as it is at least So so I want to hear the applicants thoughts on the concept of You know some type of rotary there. I think I'm not sure who made the point over here, but And I think this was talked about with cottonwood crossing during our involvement with it is So long I mean we certainly have to look and see whether it fits within the context of the plan But I guess we would want to make sure that everybody's in agreement that the The center of that is For visual purposes and not any kind of destination that you don't want to encourage people crossing into the middle of it Right. I don't I don't think I don't think you envisioned it as a destination No, it would simply be a visual Would that be replacing the screen that what you're saying is it would take up some of the green space You know that it looks like you can scale off a 130 foot circle it would It would change The way That that looks This is this is the commercial section. Are there going to be tractor trailers delivering into this area? Uh, there will be yes. Okay. The reason I ask you is if you look at the circle in maple tree place They first planted it then they paved it now They got a freaking rock it's sitting in the center of it because why the tractor trailers cannot make the turn Or the drivers driving the trucks can't make the turn. They're always on top of it all the time plus effect is Before I retired from the fire department We ran a lot of calls because people suddenly stopped at these traffic circles and we had a rear end collision So i'm not in favor of going to a circle The one other aspect is that I was going to bring up before was by you now extending holland road you could pitch to The bus services to now put a bus line down there because you're going to have commercial buildings that are going to potentially need people Commuters to be able to get in there. Correct. That's right. There is already a bus uh, stop Plan for this location down here you potentially get them so the bus actually goes Down holland and picks up zephyr and they can drop people potentially You know, so they're not walking a mile plus to go to work. They're potentially dropped off Correct or not? Uh, that's certainly a possibility. I know that green mountain transit is has a plan for how they're collecting people now and it's all about how the town and GMT Want to work out the pickup process Green green mountain we had a conversation paul with green mountain transit about the idea of some sort of uh, what I would call sort of a local circulator within the taft corners area and That's something that I think could still be a possibility at some point in time I think we're probably far from it Where we're the transit operators the way They understand How their system works best is is in a corridor so so But the idea that there might be some sort of you know, sort of transit You know pick up delivery that would be a little bit more fine grain than just a bus going up and down williston road Or root 2a. I think it's a is a good one Um Who knows as the as the How the future of Autonomous vehicles unfolds You know, who knows what who knows what lies ahead Chris, can you um describe for us exactly what would be built if this were approved if this discretionary permit were We're given how much of what's on the site plan would we be seeing built as part of this permit? So you would be seeing all the property in this lot For the hotel. So it would be the hotel the bike path The patio and the parking lot and our plan is to construct this portion of market street This portion of holland This portion of holland. Well, this portion of holland is actually already approved From here to here the straight part It has a has already has been to it construct this Park area this patio and building H would probably happen at the same time But the you know up to you know, maybe 15 or 20 feet away from building H would be constructed in this And there was I think there was a question in here from public works about whether you put the sidewalk on both sides of holland drive or not So yeah, so the one problem We can do it on both sides Right off the bat But because the buildings have to be along the Right along the right of way We're actually going to have to remove the sidewalk and replace it as Soon as we try to build do building G So It's a little hard to Uh waste of money, but I mean by I understand what you're saying So no so no words you could build the sidewalk on the The off the off side of G Yes, we would plan you could build that one and then you could build the entire sidewalk on the other side When you build building G We're going to have to construct the sidewalk for When we do building a free We'll be constructing up to here any other questions from the board stick had a couple um did Did roger look at the um that the turns so coming in off of route two we've got space for a left-turn lane coming in so coming up out of taps corner is turning left into Yes, yeah, did he look to see whether there's going to be any stacking up for need a need for that left-turn lane at this point Yes, that I mean that left-turn lane has been anticipated all the way Since the project was proposed And actually we just looked at the existing pavement markings that went down as part of the project that was just completed And there's actually a little bit more room for stacking than he had anticipated He was planning I think for about 125 feet of stacking the way that their pavement markings went down We've actually got about 170 feet um of storage there even more than Had always been anticipated, but it's not striped as a turn lane now. Correct. Would the turn lane get striped as part of this phase Yes, I'll turn signal Yes, yes, there's there would be the intersection the uh signal modifications as well as Milling a strip right down the center of the road in order to Restripe it as a turn lane um, oh, let's see Yeah, I applaud you for sticking with the six foot sidewalk I think that's ridiculous for public works to be asking you to slim down your sidewalk I imagine it has to do with the plow blade width, but they don't actually plow In the neighborhood. Yeah, so why else would they ask for a narrower sidewalk? I'm glad you're sticking with the six foot because I think that seems pretty crazy So that's going to be you guys we currently plow all the sidewalks in bike paths within the neighborhood We are requesting the public works Through the select board and have requested for a number of years. However, the select board has not Allocated the funds to plowing any of the bike path or or a bike path through the throughout the neighborhood as of yet Even though they're public streets, even though they're public streets Right. So the plowing of pedestrian facilities Is um, it's it's a budgetary issue So the more miles of it that you do the more that you have to budget for snow removal And the select board has a policy where they basically they design They decide which sections of bike path facilities will Will get plowed and which ones will not now When zephyr road gets accepted because it hasn't been finished yet or accepted Is there a possibility that the town would Engage in snow removal on the bike path along zephyr road I don't want to pre-empt the select board, but I would say There's probably a pretty good chance that that would occur When that decision point comes along It's next to me. We shouldn't be accepting the streets if we're not ready to maintain Right away to right away, you know the full But that's that's very different, right? So when but we're like, you know the select board Right, we're not going to we're not going to accept the streets until the street is finished Which the street is not finished yet. So, you know, there's a there's a wear code and there's some speed tables There's some other design elements To zephyr road that have yet to be constructed. So when all that's said and done Um, that will be the decision point for accepting the street Yeah, that's right Yeah, all right, um, I think that's everything that was on my thoughts All anything I already got mine in Oh, wait a minute. I got one more. There's a line that has to be always be said at these meetings. Boy, it's a sea of asphalt there Okay, now we can move on Courtney John Let's start out some fun stuff So can you review for us kind of materials on the building and what it's made out of and sure I'll have it And and while you're at it talk about this wonderful pedestrian path in front of the I think that's a great element The show I'm on here just to give you a hard comment about the Hi, Keith Kelly with opeachy. I'm the architect the record and the architect and construction management company that's Under letter of intent with redstone for the design instruction of the facility So it's a home two suites, which is a hilton brand so it's a nationally branded internationally branded hotel by hilton hotel It is um 100 rooms three story wood frame construction Hilton publishes obviously product typical information how they want this to look similar to mcdonald's and burger king is across the country There's kind of the way they want it to be and the branding and associated Architecture there too. We haven't deviated too much from that. There are some vertical elements that we removed They they have these components here at their entrances relative to Relative to the entrance of it called the beacon This component is their entrance element, which is here, which would face to the south The materials are Right now proposed as a fiber cement panel and fiber cement banding clabbered type materials, so it's essentially A modern version of what would be a wood clabbered, but it's made out of a fiber cement product That's in keeping with all of their Materials and standards that they are looking for for this to look it's you've implemented Uh varying degrees of exposure on the siding some banding associated with floor lines and then vertical elements At key components of larger bayed Larger bays of and deeper bays of of guest rooms. There's a mix between kings or single bed occupancies as well as double bed occupancies for leisure and business travel There are components of the architecture that are trellis and overhang and outcroppings that are a brand Identity for the project in the building pork or share drive under piece. It's here to the to the south and essentially it's a play of panels and boards and battens or boards and clabbered field applied paint product on them That's essentially the architecture of the building. It's really painted all the way through There are some elements in here that are a panelized a metal panel or a aluminum or a composite panel that are kind of these Touches of color that will start to show up around the building both at the entrance and at the secondary entrance that's one of the things that we appreciated about the pedestrian Right in this section right there is a patio component public space of the hotel. So really This is a very appealing portion of it for from our standpoint is Vehicle entrances here you come in for registration and so on here and this is really the public area that faces this Heavily commented green space that is really an opportunity to activate that off of the public space through this patio and the pedestrian aisle So there's there's some compelling arguments for that Um Pedestrian transition of Curtis Lane as it relates to the interior space of the hotel Have you made um as again, this is kind of a national branding piece here Are there some nods you've made to the the climate that might be here in the north if you might not see California or texas or north carolina One of the ones we actually just talked about this evening before coming in tonight is they they have a pork or share Component that is actually only half covered and the other half is trellis or open beams if you will Which even in rainy climate shouldn't be utilized, but that's their brand image. So we're going to try and Make a case that regardless of rain or snow it's really not a A compelling argument to have half of your guests not be able to pull underneath the roof pork or share but Other than that the only things that we've made adjustments to is again this beacon component There was a larger piece that was above the 36 foot height restriction that was a Appurtenant to the building, but the bylaws don't allow us to take the appurtenance We locked it off I'm eric hoaxer from redstone a couple of other things that From what you typically see on these is typically these are four or five story structures and with a 36 foot height A lot of the time What you see in terms of materials is is almost entirely a stucco facade, you know We don't think that stucco holds up particularly well in this climate Even even well done. It doesn't look as nice. It doesn't have as high quality As what we're proposing with the collaborative panel so it's it's Upgraded a notch from sort of the bare bones of what You should be careful with the fiber cement Even in this climate if it's not on just right, it's it's going to be a problem But it can be done. Certainly. What about kind of a thermal envelope? The windows different or the same or an additional amount of insulation anything like that to kind of Push this towards a more energy efficient building everything here will meet And That's right, so this is active 50 of the stretch And then You know, we'll be working as This customer for us for all of redstone's projects We'll be working with efficiency from a lot of energy investment corporation Vermont gas looking at energy efficiency incentives and options to Upgrade even a little bit beyond that. Is there any exposed? Mechanical equipment that you need to screen here There are a couple rooftop units that will locate these are slightly higher than the parapet walls if you will of the roof So there will be they'll be centrally located because they're in the corridor, which Is where the distribution is going to occur. So We're pretty Cognizant of the visual concerns So they'd be located both middle longitudinally and laterally within the building structure in there only Small two ton rooftop units or so that are how tall are they? Maybe they sit three feet off the roof that from a visual standpoint at 36 feet So are they modeled on this or not that you I don't know that I don't know that they're actually that we didn't produce these documents But I we could certainly produce some sort of visual document if there was some concern for the height of those But I don't think the sight lines are really going to be Ones that you see these units. They're pretty low Pretty lowest So the parapet is a couple of feet So the the parapets two feet above the height of the the level of the roof Right, and those units are about three feet Sit on a curb too About two feet higher than the parapet And then you get back, you know, you get back 30 feet and now you're 100 feet Yeah, I mean nobody's that tall. Yeah, right Can't screen them from the airplane. That's right comments from the audience Yes, ma'am, please state your name and address please You said the hotel room's 100 rooms and then require one room for one parking space I'm wondering how many employees are going to work at the hotel And then is there any business space for the parking because I only hear seven bicycle space So I just want to hear the thought of that so, um What we found with with hotels that we're involved with and other hotels that our operating partners are involved with is that When you have 100 hotel rooms, you don't have 100 Guest vehicles on site because people travel together, right? And so you'll have You know two or three business people that are traveling together. They're in one vehicle They may be occupying two or three rooms. You have a family that Is is on vacation and there's four or five people in the family and they're occupying two or three rooms So you you never have 100 vehicles for 100 guest rooms so the The factor is, you know, maybe 75 at maximum occupancy. You're also you're also rarely You're also rarely a hundred percent occupied at a hotel You're you know on average here will be about 70 percent occupied, you know year round So only about 70 of the rooms are occupied and and the the ratio is, you know, maybe 75 percent of those Occupied rooms have a vehicle associated with them. So at max occupancy We have you know, maybe 75 guest vehicles on site, which gives us plenty of capacity for you know bike parking wise We don't anticipate a lot of hotel guests arriving by bike Certainly some hotel guests may bring their bike along if They're bike enthusiasts or you don't want to do some biking while they're traveling or that sort of thing But we think we've got the bike parking cover We also think that we have some some spaces some areas on site where if we find that our bike Parking is in and we can certainly add additional racks in the future Thank you any other questions from the audience ball one other question On the internet big discussion has been running about electric vehicles and access points for Hotels providing Overnight, you know charging for the overnight guests. Have you looked into that? We have looked into it You know at our hotel in downtown berlington. We've been monitoring How many people are arriving with electric vehicles and looking for electric vehicle charging infrastructure So far it's it's a very small number of people And at least in berlington we're able to point them in the direction of nearby charging facilities But we haven't found a need for you know on-site charging capabilities It is something we're looking at here And something we could certainly accommodate If we determine that that there is a need for it And I would add also this is an active 50 project and one of the items that will probably be required Is that there'll be at least conduit placed To for future access My partner drives an electric car, so I'm very confident Any other questions from the audience? The notes said that there was a master sign plan With separate staff report and findings and conditions. Is that in our packet? Yes, sir It's deeper within and I'll take you through it once you've closed this one out and I promise to do it quicker then Last one Andy or chris. Do you have anything further? I think I'd I tend To not offer more comments or thoughts than what I've been asked of but I would like to respond to john's perspective of You know reconfiguration of hauland and why It is what it is If hauland became straight this park And the way that that oriented personally, I don't think would work And from an uh, we do have to worry about vehicles and how people access and move within our neighborhood and I Would be I think that that would be a negative approach to addressing your concern of Something at the end of What's now hauland we can change it back to boxwood number one if you want us to change the name but The I don't think that we're going to be able to create the Peace at the end and that I I feel Very confident that What we're proposing is not some suburban neighborhood This is dense We have buildings that are going to be right up along the edge of the right of way which you rarely see I can't even think of very many places that you see that in the town of williston And so I think we are creating by agreeing to have the buildings right along The edge of the right of way and addressing a streetscape that is very different than what has been Proposed with throughout the town of willston for for the last 20 years so I think It's a give and a take our positions are not that far apart I guarantee it and I understand what you're saying And I just think that you've not I think there's a way to create that density much closer to that spot and to put a much more active element right there And it's it's it's almost a separate issue here as to kind of we I'm feeling like we are being forced And it's not your fault to kind of get ahead of ourselves on designing these streets and this And the rest of this site plan ahead of when all the rest of the buildings are going to be there because Those are the pieces that could be placed on this site You know the patio for the hotel is great right alongside that that the pedestrian walk It's in lieu of Curtis Yeah, and it then started to engage that path from the other side now as you walk along there You've got this and it's got this and it's it becomes a very very active and attractive And I think those smaller spots along with some bigger spots and something that that entices you in Visually, there's so many different ways to engage people as they come in out of this site And I just feel that that's a very important spot and that you're not Giving it the importance Yeah, again, it's almost a side issue That's why I wanted to talk about this hotel because I think this hotel is a great addition to the site I think it's a great addition to Williston. I think it's it's it's definitely a move in the right direction I'm just frustrated that one spot isn't being treated better So we can we can agree to disagree I suppose I understand. Yes Thank you for pushing us though because I think one thing that has happened from the last DRB meeting Is we have come in and presented a proposal here in a plan That is better Than what was originally proposed as sketch plan. So, you know our iterative process of going through both the hack as Challenging as some of those meetings are for for me Uh That and coming to the DRB the comments we do listen and we do understand that there's concerns And about this or that and we do try to address those As much as possible in creating a neighborhood. We have an extremely large investment in finny crossing and Uh, it is extremely important for me to see the neighborhood come to the fruition Of 20 years worth of work Uh, and that's what we have today So I am as interested as all of you are in creating as good of a neighborhood as we possibly can have So I appreciate the comments and the thoughts because it is good. I do appreciate those and we do want to address those So thank you I didn't I didn't see the signal plan in here when I asked about the turn lane. It's clearly here So I Plot us for that, but I one thing that I noticed was seems to be missing is a crosswalk across The other side of route two, right? So, um You've got a crosswalk on the I guess the here. Yeah that that And and when we're talking about this Yeah, so if you look you'd have to come in a bit to right into the path So in building the crosswalk that we do have shown there'll be a new section of sidewalk that's built on Southwest quadrant in order to link up to the bike path because it is set back away from willison road on that side But why not on the other side? There's a sway I mean, I guess if there's if there's a sway there if there's some grading constraints But otherwise, I mean I feel like you're talking about you're talking about the Shawside, right? Yes, the Shaw's parking lot. Yeah, the Shawside has got a swill town there. I can't remember if there's a bike Between the parking lot and I think that's one of the reasons. Yeah, there's a there's a swiller There is drainage between willison road in the bike path in Shaw's parking lot, which sits up at a higher elevation it just feels like, you know, we're going for the pedestrian kind of Connectivity here that one, you know, someone's coming down that one side And then they've got to cross twice to get across to a Or to get across to be nice just to have that third leg Or I guess that would be the missing. That'd be the fourth leg that doesn't have a crosswalk I think if it's engineeringly possible then we would certainly Be willing to have that as a condition of an approval We're in the memorial bridge Assuming v-trans Assuming v-trans, right. Yeah, right Is the the bike head facility along Williston road Will that be constructed as part of this phase? Or just No, it would be we're Anticipating that it would be proposed when one or more of those commercial buildings go go in. Yeah, when this goes in So the the street Section to Williston road would be constructed. Is that correct? Right there. Yeah, that would be constructed But not the bike pad improvements that go along Williston road. Is that correct? That's correct. Okay, just Just asking about that. Thank you. That's correct. Good chris Andy you're good. Yes, okay Anybody from the audience last chance DRB, okay We're going to close dp 09-01 at 9 15 Next up on the docket is Same dp number dp 0901 Finney crossing commercial master sign plan That goes first. Okay So along with the proposed hotel building It's just reviewed. There's signage and For a couple of reasons that signage is required to be part of a master sign plan Those reasons include that some of those wall signs as proposed on the hotel are larger than this line 24 square foot maximum in our bylaw And can be approved but only with some findings made by the drb that are compatible with the Intent and language in the town plan in the bylaw Also, we do anticipate finny crossing and its commercial component to be Multiple tenant that there'll be more than just this one commercial user and that signage will be coordinated And measured site-wide across the commercial portion of the site Real briefly, there are some signs on the site right now We understand those to be part of the finny crossing what we're calling the residential master sign plan So if you've seen the the signs on the seating walls at the entrance to the project along zephyr road There's also a seating wall component Elsewhere in the project. That's all part of what we're calling residential and we're Just as a as a way of neatening up the review of the project Calling what comes with the commercial part of a commercial master sign plan so That's what this is about. It's only about signs on the hotel right now So there are proposed wall signs three of them a b and c on the plan window signs e f g and h As well as freestanding signs and just use that category Freestanding but what they're really about is being able to put seasonal On light poles similar to what you might have seen Somewhere in burlington or perhaps in use at mable tree place And so we asked the applicants when they brought in the master sign plan, you know, have you thought about Any sort of temporary banner type stuff that you want to do and that was the the one idea they had That is included for the bulk of what's being proposed to be constructed the light poles that would come in would be able to carry A Hole if the applicant wanted to So going into that You'll notice that those wall signs a b and c are proposed at 100 49 and 76 square feet for a total of 230 Square feet the window signs are smaller 12 four and a half four and a half and nine square feet respectively for a total of 30 And then you've got a whole bunch of light poles And sorry, I misquoted 32 square feet. That's the maximum we're talking about 15 square feet like a three by five On the light Maximum There's 30 of those light poles that are part of this phase at 15 square feet each. That's 450 square feet For a total of 710 square feet of potential signage as our bylaw sees it This part of the project so A master sign plan allows you to come up with a maximum amount of signage for the site Based on the street facing facade of the building and it's eight percent of the area of that facade So this building has a 10 000 and 24 square foot Facade eight percent of that is 801 square feet and the applicant's total proposed is 710 Which is under that eight percent theoretical maximum There's no temporary banners Sandwich boards Stick in the ground signs anything like that proposed No internal directory signs proposed as part of this project Those could come later once there are more buildings to point to There are no non conforming signs on the site that need to be brought into conformance prior to the approval of this master sign plan There are some special findings the drb would need to make in order to allow the wall signs In excess of of one wall sign and in excess of the 24 square foot maximum I have drafted those findings for the board finding that the signs as shown are consistent with The language of the comprehensive plan And with the language in the bylaw about signs which real briefly basically says signs ought to look like they belong there They ought to fit with the size and scale and shape of the building Not to be as carefully designed as and placed as other elements are On the site and so the staff recommendation for that is for approval The applicant has given you a plan Showing the locations of those signs All of these signs are proposed to be illuminated with backlighting So williston does not allow new internally illuminated signs So you're talking if there's a if there's a letter it's solid It has light behind it that washes on to the building surface behind it and halo lights that element So there's no internal One question When you build the buildings j and i and all that stuff along the main road Will those signs be blocked how tall are those buildings that are in that new in the follow You know what i'm saying Yeah, the proposed buildings uh i j and i You know, there'll be one in two story buildings. Okay, so what i'm trying to say is the signs would still be visible Over the building correct. That's correct. That's all i know because i was going to say otherwise Why are you putting up a sign that's going to be blocked? Okay, uh chris and andy Uh Floor is yours to elaborate on anything that matt just said I think matt covered it between what matt talked about and what's in the staff report I think that covers it. The wasn't anything else to add okay John The um the d signs this the the light pole signs It looks that those are it's a i see down there to kind of at the end of pollen lane It says typical street light with two banner signs each pole So that that 15 square feet is really a pair of them that are Five by a foot and a half or something. No, we had um, are there 30 at 15 square feet each And the 15 square feet was a estimate on what they might be Um Some of them will be less than that we've got some 12 foot poles But so there's 15 poles and we had only looked at the poles along holland lane And if you count up the poles we're a few short, but we're anticipating that there might be a light added We're trying to get a sense of of what that i mean are you talking about having two Two banners on each light pole eventually. Yes. Okay, so up to 15 square feet per banner Banner 15 15 poles Eventually 30 square feet on each pole. That's a big banner third I'm just trying to imagine it, you know three feet wide off the pole is a lot Um, it's a lot of wind is they would probably be taller 24 30 inch wide at most It's a lot of banners So and then another one another question is more I guess for staff and that So this is obviously it makes sense. This is very consistent with master sign plans we see all the time where Figure out the elevation of the hotel and how many signs are allowed when we start getting other buildings in here on this same sign permit Are we're going to add up the the the street facing facade of each building add it all up and all the signs together Then have to fit within that or is it by building? The the um the first that you mentioned so Um similar, you know a good parallel would be what was done to approve a master sign plan for maple tree place You know one facade per building and then you total up all of the signage So in you know in maple tree place's case They were looking to add signs that said maple tree place, you know some of them of pretty significant size As well as they had a lot of commercial and retail tenants who wanted pretty significant window signage so As I recall their master sign plan is fairly close to maxed out on that 8 maximum But it has to do with allowing for pretty much any tenant to cover up to 20 of any window on the site Which you know realistically the utilization is not that high. There's also covers I think it's one banner on every single light pole in the site of a similar size That is if they were asking for less now, they'd have more available for future buildings Yes, there's a lot of banner space may not actually be helpful in the long run Um, and I think since it's like in finny it's going to Be built out in phases as we've seen um I think to be calculating signage as we go makes a lot of sense and that way You're all everything is always proportional Which is really what we what we're hoping to have at the end of the day And so, you know, we wouldn't want to have you know, somebody Say, I don't know. You save up all this square footage and have about one big giant Sign every whole side of the building. I don't think that I don't think that's Anybody's interest. That's not what we're calling. True. We'll touch. So then the last question is the finny crossing Sign that's out there now right there is up a road and and route route two It's hard to imagine that's really part of the residential part of the site Shouldn't that really be counted as part of the commercial? It could be. Um, you know, we've we've sort of discussed informally with the applicant at some point um Whether there's a north south divide on the site and You know Yeah, use them basically use the power lines We could be done What I wanted to call it for the board is you know, the signs that are there were accounted for as part of the residential component I think if any of those signs that are closer to the commercial get reworked at all For example, if the applicants wanted to add a directory element to the sign on zephyr road and us too I would say then it's time to bring that whole thing into the commercial master plan rather than you know Have literally one component part of the residential in one part of the commercial So is that sign at zephyr road at the end of zephyr road? Is that intended to be kind of the gateway sign for the residential neighborhood? Or is that to draw people into the commercial? Properties that are coming I would say it's the gateway To the neighborhood I want to establish this stuff now when it's not an issue Well, and I I think john made this idea that that so When the master sign plan was processed That was just covering the residential portion because that was all that was being built So we accounted for that sign as part of the residential Was it always our intent that that would always be counted as part of the residential signage? I don't know that we had thought it through. I think that By the time we start getting closer and closer towards build out that perhaps that sign is accounted for as part of The commercial development or accounted for in some other way. I think that would be a good that would be a good discussion item I recommend that we actually do that sooner than later. Just so that everyone knows where that's getting counted as we move forward Sure. Yeah, that's a good idea When I ask one other aspect the This haloing of the light. This is going to be downward rather than light pollution into the you know up, right? Because I could because we're getting real good light pollution in our area now Our bylaw only allows for downward facing illumination Or in the case of the haloing it wouldn't necessarily go up. It might it would be You know going forward, but but I mean it's not not the type when you see these guys really put the floods Yeah, we don't allow that that's that's strictly prohibited in our bylaw. Yeah, just making sure You will see some of that around town. That's all that's all pre-existing It's all you know, so but under the current regulations. We don't allow upward facing illumination. Thank you The banners on the street lights are going to be within the public ground Right, they're going to be in the public right away if this is accepted by the town and and so is there some kind of like maintenance agreement or something with You know, it's going to be Private banners on public streets on street lights, right and and and should we be regulating that as part of us? Oh, well, we wouldn't regulate that we meaning the planning office and the drb It would be regulated by the select board since they the select board has control over what takes place in the public right away I don't know. I would imagine in some cases. These are going to be within private streets in which case Those would be subject to our sign regulations and not necessarily Regulated by the select board if it's on zebra road that will be a public street At home laying to right right what we were trying to do at this point was to to get them into the master sign plan so that they were accounted for and You know matt and I did talk about what about the ones on the public street that there would You know, whether it's a license agreement or some type of an arrangement Where first you get permission to put them up and second you've got to get permission for whatever copies on the banner as well Um, so I think that's we wanted to make sure that we had approval Under the master sign plan to do them and then the next step is to work with public works and or the select board to actually get approval to install them I think it's a good idea. Just I'm sure there's some poops to jump through. Yeah Mm-hmm Any comments from the audience Okay, hearing none. We will close the master sign plan at 9 29 Is it real if a light gauge? Yeah, I mean, what's the people Okay Next up is Joel March When you're ready if you would state your names and your addresses, please I'm Amanda rab would treat all consulting engineers for 97 Blair park road. Wilson from I'm andre dottolo. Also a treat all consulting Great. Welcome. Melinda. You're in I guess, huh? This is a request for a pre-application review for a proposed Seven lot residential subdivision of a 51.3 acre parcel ARZD The parcel is located at 225 rosewood drive and 43 54 south brown ale road The property is currently developed with one single family home The applicant is proposing to subdivide the single lot Into seven single family home lots sized at between one and two five acres The applicant's proposing to set aside 38.44 acres as protected open space Before I Go further. I just want to provide some information Mostly for the benefit of the audience And that is that this is a pre-application review, which is the the first of a three step process Um at pre-application level The applicant Presents a concept level Plan for what they're proposing and it's really um just a a sort of a broad overview of the project and Lacks intentionally lacks the types of the kinds of details and the level of detail that we would expect Further on down the process So at this stage The intention is merely is to inform The drb and the advisory boards and to have a discussion about the proposed project If the drb finds that the project has merit and it's a sound project they may Make a recommendation that for the project to Be involved in the growth management allocation growth management review Growth management review would happen next mark at a public hearing And at which time if this application was to move forward to growth management They would be competing with other residential subdivisions to get Uh a certain number of units of allocation for Residential dwelling units um And then if they get allocation The third step of the process would be for them to submit an application for a discretionary permit At that stage we would be looking for Much greater detail in uh the application of the site plan including Runoff and erosion control plans Landscaping Driveways Open space Etc So, um, that's that's all I want to say about that, but that's just to You know provide you some information about what the entire process is like Where we're at right now um So as far as this project history Uh in june 2017 the applicant received an administrative permit to remove an existing dwelling Construct an access driveway and a new two-bedroom single family dwelling located at 43 54 south brinnell road Under the wilson development bylaw Uh chapter develop chapter 11 growth management A lot that was created prior to 1990 is allowed one dwelling by right without having to go through growth management review Since the applicant removed an existing dwelling and replaced it with a single family dwelling Neither pre-application nor discretionary permit Was required at that time This is the first time the drb has seen this proposal um I'm uh The um other departments Um Boards and town departments did review this proposal. Uh, I'll I'll be returning to their comments later. Um So as as far as the use the proposed subdivision Will be for the purpose of adding six new dwelling units to the parcel Single and two family dwelling units are in allowed use in the arzd um The applicants proposing a subdivision which will result in seven dwelling units on 51.3 acres of land Where the maximum allowed residential density in the zone is one dwelling unit per 80 000 square feet Or approximately 1.84 acres Williston development bylaw chapter 19 On density requires that that um In calculating, uh The allowable density The acreage of wetland wetland buffers um, and slopes in excess of 30 percent be subtracted from the overall acreage prior to making that density calculation and that, uh acreage Land with slopes between 15 and 29.9 percent be calculated at a reduced density of one dwelling unit per 10 acres Um staff noted That the applicants density calculations Uh appear to be incorrect Because the acreage of wetlands was not subtracted from the overall acreage Prior to making the density calculation Uh, I've included a table in the staff notes that, uh Shows the density calculations that I made um and Uh Resulting in a maximum allowable Number of dwelling units of 14 dwelling units um The applicant has uh Conducted a wetlands delineation That wetlands delineation has yet to be confirmed by the state wetlands office So any additional class two wetlands or wetland buffers present on the site Would also would reduce the amount of the parcel available for the purposes of calculating density So, uh as far as open space goes, um This parcel is uh greater than 10 and a half acres Therefore, it's required to set aside a minimum of 75 of the area of the parent parcel is permanently protected open space This open space must include steep slopes wetland areas and setbacks And any other resources required to be protected under, uh, wellston development bylaw chapter 27 The applicants proposed 38.44 acres of open space meets the 75 percent requirement However, um, it appears that not all of the slopes in excess of 30 percent Uh have been contained in the open space um So staff is recommending that the drb require that All of the steep slopes Be contained in the open space And as of The drafting of the staff report the applicant was working on revisions to their site plan To address this issue And I think is has brought those revised site plans to the Meeting tonight um So the drb may wish to consider the continuation of this application To a future date to allow time for the applicant To uh to formally submit these revised site plans and for the staff and board to review the revised site plans Another note about the open space, uh Within lots six and seven There are class three wetlands shown That haven't yet been confirmed as class three wetlands by the state wetlands office If after state review those wetlands end up being classified as class two the applicant will need to include them in the open space um, the drb may um also Upon recommendation of the conservation commission require that a functional assessment of the class three wetlands be Conducted And provided along with the delineation In order to determine if the class three wetlands have significant functional value worthy of protection Although the conservation commission did not make such a recommendation As uh In terms of access The existing home on the proposed lot five is accessed by a recently constructed driveway from south brownell road Lots one two three and four all proposed to be accessed from this same driveway Lots six and seven will be accessed from the existing rosewood drive Um, delby uh, the wilson development bylaw chapter 13 Allows up to five dwelling units on a shared driveway. Um, and for driveways serving multiple dwellings the grade Must not exceed 10 Permits for new single family homes will have to be accompanied by impact fees including traffic impact fees And this is the pre application stage is also The time where the drb can ask for a traffic impact study if they desire Staff notes that in wilson seven additional family Single family units will produce a little over seven new pm peak hour trip ends And uh, their four staff is not recommending that the drb Request a traffic study for this project um As far as landscaping is concerned, um Chapter 23 States only that open space residential developments in the arz must provide ample buffers It doesn't specify a minimum of buffers widths the drb has a good Has a lot of discretion to require specific buffer widths That are appropriate for the situation um also the Chapter 31 provides additional guidance for landscape buffers in open space developments specifically stating that clusters of lots must be effectively separating Separated from neighboring properties public ways and each other by open space um And that this standard Can be achieved by using terrain features such as steep slopes existing woods Ridge lines streams wetlands, etc So the applicant has not yet proposed any landscaping for this project Um Staff is recommending a 50 foot buffer of existing forested vegetation be retained Around the perimeter of the development where possible And that in areas where forested vegetation is currently lacking such as the east side of lots one through four And south of the driveway on lot one The applicant provide a minimum of a nine foot Type three landscape buffer in other words informal plantings to Provide visual screening development from adjoining properties um If so authorized the applicant will proceed with residential growth management allocation request for it should be six dwelling units um staff However staff is recommending that this application be continued to the public hearing of December December 12 2017 so as to allow the applicant the opportunity to address the issues that we noted namely Correct the density calculation um Contained put make sure that the Slopes in excess of 30 percent are contained within the open space And address also address the landscape buffers as I noted And then I've included some pre-application recommendations for the drb to consider at the appropriate time um as far as reviewed by other boards and and and town departments The police department the public works department did not have any comments about this application The fire department had some comments related to Uh providing an adequate adequate water supply at the site of at least 15 000 gallons um And the wilson conservation commission uh recommended um That the applicant uh Provide Submit a habitat disturbance assessment um As part of the discretionary permit application uh Have the wetland stilination um confirmed and Also submit a professionally prepared runoff and erosion control plan um And then the conservation commission also noted that the open space configuration Is not optimal and requests that the applicant applicant reconfigure the lot boundaries So as to allow for a minimum 200 foot width of open space at any point Along its boundary In order to make it more contiguous And that's about that's all I have to say about This great. Thanks malinda um So you you read the staff notes. You just heard the you just heard the staff commentary on it um staff is recommending That this be continued to december 12 A little bit of housekeeping, but uh should we continue into december 12? When do you need it? When do you need their? Submission by monday december the fourth so It's a week from yesterday. I thought I had two days. That's what I was told originally. So that sounds good. So there you go You're ahead of the game. Yeah, um, okay, so Um, I do like to cover that so there's no surprises and the staff isn't in the staff isn't running around Okay, getting material late point scott because we know from experience that when we went applications have to continue forward to Two weeks. It's a tight timeline And everybody needs to understand that because of course we got to get the information and we've got to look at it And then we've got to write out the staff notes again. So So monday monday morning That sounds good because I first I was told the 30th, which is in two days. So we basically have everything ready And we're even going to try to incorporate any of your comments if we could if necessary So we are we are going to continue it to the 12 All of your data needs to be the staff by the fourth if you'd like to run us through the project that's what we're here for So how about giving us a A synopsis Yes, so I'm going to run you through the project as revised per these comments And we're going to get some new plans right now As far as the staff notes go Everything that melinda has put in here is pretty much what we've discussed we've had a meeting with the conservation committee and Tried to address some of their concerns with our revised lot layouts, which you're getting right now that includes Keeping the steep slopes completely in the conservation area and also widening the What is what was considered a very narrow strip that makes the open space even though it's continuous Feel like it's partially separated with like a little strip of a path At that meeting I asked for the Requirements written in the bylaws for the open space and minimum widths, which there are none and The contiguous space just needs to be contiguous so we I think we originally had something along 25 feet, which is on your plans and I've pretty much, you know, I had to get a number out of the committee So I had something to go back with because I was going back to the drawing board anyway And I wanted some sort of guideline and that's when they came up with 200 feet 200 feet Which was pulled from the air. So we did our best to get close to what that was. We we came up with 100 feet one thing to note about that is that The positions of the homes haven't changed based on our revised lot lines Which means and the animals that are going to be traveling if there are animals out there and we'll find out when we do our assessment They don't care about property lines. So where the houses are we've changed it So we have 100 foot width for our contiguous open space to get as close to the the 200 That they've come up with but they The traveling is all still the same because the houses are in the exact location. So the animals don't have the exact same amount of space as as the original lot layout that we have so Um We'll do an assessment and I think 100 feet will probably be sufficient But I'm not I'm not qualified to really know if that number is sufficient because I don't know much about wildlife and assessments So we'll we'll go further on that later. That's where that's where you're going to be getting a habitat disturbance assessment Right. I think we're getting that just because if you look at this land There's a lot of undeveloped land on our parcel and surrounding our parcel So obviously we have wildlife moving through here. That's why we need an assessment the proposed development portions are pretty close to Where there's development already So our our lots one through four which are on the back side of lots that are somewhat similarly shaped except for larger You know, there's not a ton of wildlife traveling through there on rosewood drive That's where the home used to be the trailer. So we're putting a house back plus one There could be some wildlife up in there since the trailer has been gone for a long time It's surrounded by undeveloped areas But I think not so we're pretty we're pretty confident that the development that we're proposing is Close to other developments and we're not disturbing the wildlife, but we'll get the assessment so that we can find out for sure So just just to be clear though, that is the purpose of the assessment is to determine Is an outside expert coming in and determining and determining what is moving in the area Yes Yeah, and and what impacts are we going to be having to any type of wildlife There's overlay layers that are provided by the state to help give us some sort of insight and it doesn't look like we have any Saying nearby that we're going to be disturbing. However, we can proceed forward assessment to find out for sure If you look at the calculation, I did have an error where I didn't subtract out my three acres I don't think it's as grave of an error Because we're not proposing to try to max this out. So I had originally 17 units for the density Melinda calculated 14 and based on some revisions that we've had The Andrew will explain with our steep slope analysis. We're coming up with about 15 and any event we're proposing seven so half of that And that's been fixed in your new narrative that you have Open space nothing's really changed for that 75 75 percent The class three wetlands Andrea will be able to discuss those further because she actually went out and did the assessment and can tell you more about those access to the lots The conservation committee had asked why we have kind of the split where we're on rosewood drive And we're going to be accessing south brown L road and the reasoning behind that is because of The five maximum per driveway and also we already have development in both of these areas So it makes sense and trying to cluster In one area or the other I don't think would be using the space very efficiently So we went with this and they were satisfied with with how we explained that For the landscaping buffer We have added in just some trees to represent where these buffers will be so you can see it visually Those trees haven't been selected yet. We're not at that stage But that's something that we can include planted buffer and we'll keep the forested portions around To the width of 50 feet and probably in excess of that for the remaining portions for a natural buffer I think that addresses the the main comments and then steep slope analysis Yeah, so we originally submitted a steep slope Which is different than the new plans that you're seeing now The original analysis that we performed used the highest resolution Lider information that the state has available, which is a 0.7 meter digital elevation model and that produced almost an Over accuracy to the steep slopes if you turn to the last plan in that new package that I gave you there's a comparison map On the right is our old steep slopes and on the left is the new Analysis, so if you look at the old one, there's lots of very very small areas of the red very steep slopes Which isn't very accurate You wouldn't really have something that's under 10 square feet of steep slope and that's why we had a lot of issues of Configuring any lot outside of an area that has very steep slopes The new analysis that we performed we decided to Since we had surveyed topography In the development area used that survey contours along with one foot contours available from the state To get a more accurate ground reading especially in our development area So we used those contours to do a very similar slope analysis And that's what's was performed and shown on the left image. It just has you know a little bit more clumps of slopes that you'd actually find out there rather than This very high definition version And once we were able to do that we were better able to configure the lots to avoid those steep slope areas As you can see One thing to note that when we met with melinda and we were telling her about our original steep slope analysis Which has like these little freckles Everywhere's in the narrative. I give you zoom ins of what these freckles look like where you would have Almost like little charts if you ever Were those things called in caves That grow up and down and meet that's kind of what our steep slope is making it look like which isn't what what's actually happening out there The town of williston doesn't have a standard Assessment that you should be using to do this type of analysis But in other towns, they based on a 10 meter Analysis and our original assessment was based on a 0.7 meter analysis So very very small when we ran the 10 meter analysis, we came up with I think I don't know three acres of steep slopes. So we essentially lost five acres of steep slopes So when we sat down with melinda, we said, okay, we're going to use the contours that we have that we've shot in these developed areas Which are predominantly on lots one through five And then we're going to tie in the rest of the lidar contours from the state Which are relatively accurate and use something a little broader than 0.7 acres to do our analysis on so that way We do have a slight loss of steep slopes And that's why our density has gone from melinda's 14 to our newly calculated 15 because we have a little bit more in the less steep areas But we don't have a significant loss of steep slopes in the original parcel boundaries that we've submitted to you or these revised ones because Inside of those parcel boundaries. We've selected these developed parcels on flatter slopes. So We had 0.53 acres originally if you counted all the little freckles spots inside of our Original parcel boundaries and now we're down to zero and that's because those freckles were inaccurate and they were They weren't reflecting What was actually out there and they were based on lidar. So now they're based on the actual contours that we have It's somewhat hard to explain, but I hope you're following with that We're not trying to cheat you For the wetlands Do you want to explain what you did for the wetland assessment? Yeah, so I Was out there this fall in october And did a wetland assessment. It was not a full delineation And what I saw was a couple pockets of small Unconnected isolated class three wetlands. Um, they are all under 0.5 acres, which is a threshold that the state uses to define class two wetlands And again, they're not connected to any streams Seeps any sort of Flows to larger areas. There is a section of class two wetland There's a pretty large area of steep slopes and a valley in The finger. It's what's colored in blue on that map And that would be class two. It is connected down to that tributary Of sucker brook and would require the 50 foot buffer Again, we don't have state confirmation on that, which we would need Later in our planning, but I'm fairly confident that they would be considered class three That's it unless you guys have questions Just one question. What happened a lot eight? Our thinker numbering on our original submission had a an extra number in there Just to make sure you were paying attention. So that's that should happen there as a typo The requirement for 10 for the driveways to be no less than 10 percent slope Just looking at lots the number three and four Just a quick takeoff that looks like those are 15 percent None of this has been graded what you're looking at our existing grades with some preliminary house sites Preliminary driveways thrown on there. No grading has been done So when we get to that point and we are going to encounter, let's say a 12 percent In the way of our driveway, that's an opportunity for us to regrade that to 10 So when we develop a grading plan, we'll definitely make sure that we're less than 10 percent And you think you've been able to accommodate that up that going up the hill for those those last two lots Are lots three and four? I mean it's a lot four real. I think that would be the I would I would have to say yeah because Right now as I have it. I'm crossing a couple different contours, but that could easily be turned to follow the lay of the contour Yes, yeah Yeah, do please understand that this is very very preliminary Yeah, just to make sure it's realistic that you could get seven lots get access I would say so I've been out there to walk this portion of the site and um, I feel pretty confident that we'll be able to make that work It would be helpful. It didn't realize till later on that the town. There's a town line that goes right through here Yeah, it's a funky corner of Shelburne south barlington And then the shading that's shown on I guess the extension of rosewood drive What what does that indicate? Which plan are you looking at? Um, I guess it looks like it's showing up on all of the you know the black and white Oh got like right away along there. Yeah, we'll layer as I enter. Oh, it's just the road layer from It's just the I think so does it mean that there is currently does the road extend back into lot six? The road does extend back There used to be a house back there. Yeah back to the well in there I'd have to look back in time to see exactly where that home was located to know for sure But that was the old home site. Yes. So 225 rosewood drive was the address of the old mobile home That was the only Development on this parcel and that burned down and that's why they were able to Joe and Randy were able to come in and get a new location for their new home Without having to go through the growth management process They're on lot five now. Yeah. So right now they're just on the lot, but they Hopefully will be on lot five Where was the trailer it was on lot five for a lot six? No Yeah, up near the six seven region. I'd have to look back to see exactly where The house on lot five is there currently? Yes under construction Interim number of homes where that we need a turnaround at the end of the drive Five driveways in succession the last can the can the driveway just end at a home? So I don't know that we have a stated minimum It's the way it's typically good Fire chief will say that we need some kind of a turnaround because the vehicle goes up whether it's an ambulance or Firefighting equipment. They need to be able to turn it around because they're not going to want it back at that ground right, so I don't know that we actually have a turnaround standard in our bible I'd have to look it up. I'm sure but I don't think we do I think the fire chief has got some language in his fire safety code that and he would typically comment on that but He's going to be looking for To make sure that there's that there's a sufficient facility to have a turn vehicle around In terms of the maintenance of the road though, it would be you know, it's based it's a driveway It's private so And the public works isn't really going to get involved in the thing would be for the public safety standpoint That kind of your question Well, it's actually it's not even a private road it's a driveway So it's a lesser standard still but it would be privately privately owned and privately maintained not not subject to the public work standards So are the fire department comments reproduced here in whole? Because I don't see that they're attached I actually didn't get that memo either I only see what's written in here about the fire water. Is there anything about turn around or anything? No, they they didn't um comment on turnaround or anything You know tens comments oftentimes have been rather general and free allocation understanding that All of what we've been submitting here is preliminary In fact this whole discussion that we've had about steep slopes and wetlands and things like that We don't necessarily always get that level of detail of pre-application. So You know some of this we would expect Would be would be ironed out in detail at an application for discretionary permit Well, we always tell the applicants though Is that they would be well advised to go and have a conversation directly with the fire chief because he likes to be asked and um Are you listening and it will help to ensure that the applicant doesn't get any Uh unexpected surprises later on Applicants don't always listen when I say that but but that's the sort of my standard advice on that issue Is to go talk to the fire chief ahead of time And I'll tell you what's looking for so are you submitting anything other than what you just what you handed out tonight before the set the 12th Like you've addressed all the three questions that were outlined in Melinda's memo Yes, we've addressed the three concerns and we can Address any other concerns that you have we've also added The septic locations on this plan so that way you guys have an understanding that On this parcel, this is where these septics are shown is pretty much the only location That's that's set up for wastewater because the soils aren't the greatest in other areas The previous owner did a lot of work on that property to find this out for us. So we've added that there for you There will be um On-site wells as well, which we haven't cited but that will be easier to site than the wastewater So we've we've been adding more detail as we've been going along And um, I appreciate what ken said that we're trying to give you as much information upfront as possible Even in pre-app You're looking at kind of parts and pieces as they're bringing it in right now But this is being continued forward to the 12th. So we're going to do this all again 12th or 17th On the 12th, we were expecting to pretty much give you this Revised narrative and these revised plans and then you know the rest of the I guess I mean do we need to do I mean they've addressed the three questions that were outstanding staff has asked that we continue So what yeah when we come in we'll We'll have a repeat Because I I don't think there's much here. I do have any concerns with what we've done so far As far as being able to address These initial comments We want to be sure since this is going to be our last opportunity To give you everything that you need considering the end of the year is coming That we will be able to proceed forward So if there are any concerns that you have we would love to hear them all Oh, one other question that would be uh What's the deal on uh driveways over uh The septic lines On the lines to the up to the septic field. They do they have to have You know do they have to have more than just basically You know just cutting a trench and throwing some gravel in there or do they have to have a little reinforcement So when vehicles are traveling over they're not breaking down. That's a public work standard Just curious in my experience with You would install your force main the exact same way you want to be sure the adequate cover because that's going to be a paved area It's going to be a place where frost will be driven down further So if for some reason we hit ledge or something to that effect and we couldn't go deeper Then we would be putting insulation over it, but your insulation would be essentially the same I would just curious to know if you thought about that That's yeah, I'll be honest with you. I haven't like had uh a ton of thought about it because it's not something that I think needs a lot of thought Basically, just make sure you bury it deep enough so you don't have it freezing on you Ma'am ma'am If you can just stand up for the audience we'll get you on camera and we will get your name and address Our concern is where the leach everything's going to be leaching where we about the property We have a shallow well and a dug well All seven are going to go into the same spot. You're putting all the mounds in one spot for seven houses That's all going to leach And where is that going to be? So your well we have in our site two two Yes, you're closest while we I think we're pretty sure we have both of them I know for sure we have your closest well the shallow one. Um, we have its Isolation cone shown on some preliminary plans We've put together in order to give a preliminary design on these wastewater systems And you have a protection zone around your well and these wastewater systems have a protection zone around them Because I talked to our engineer and I know how many feet we need to I'm pretty sure you're 250 feet Um the downhill side and 500 of the uphill side We're on the downhill side. You you guys are on the downhill side. It's coming towards us like this It's supposed to be yes, you are downhill from there So we need to be 500 feet. I'm pretty sure that it's 500 feet, but you're more than 500 feet I don't want something to happen to our water Yes, we would not be allowed to propose systems within your wastewater or within your welcome Well, I know you're not allowed to but sometimes things sneak in and you get stoned I want to be guaranteed our water doesn't get contained I will guarantee that these systems will not be put into your welcome You will be getting a notice from uh, so I didn't even get a notice to come here today And I have bought the property The town sends out Um Butters less and I didn't get and then look bounce back from the analysis I didn't get a letter. I know we have property a month in and when somebody's building I have to sign for letters When they come from London, it sounds it sounds like they got mail Well, we have to send excuse me one second. We we don't send sort of we don't send them out certified, right? It's just regular it's regular mail First class first class, so We can just make sure we have your we can just make sure we have your address When we do notify you for these these need to go out certified So when when this development grows to that stage? Yes No, we will follow the rules to a T And we will send you notification certified When we get to that point Um And the only concern I really have is the size of the lots pretty much the size Lots uh, I believe they're two through four And uh, 1.01 acres And I don't know if that means it from what I'm told it does but um From past And ongoing subdivisions all along south brunel road in the rx district. I've not found One acre lots that bought each other like this three It's just one of my concerns at this time Yes, please. I was just about to ask So as Melinda stated in her presentation the maximum density allowed in the zoning district Is one dwelling unit per 80,000 square feet, which is just under two acres But that doesn't mean that the minimum lot size is 1.84 acres You calculate the density over the entire project so What you tended to see the farther back in time you go In sort of older parts of town Is you see rather a rather what I would call a conventional development pattern So you just have large lots that are carved out and that's it. That's what you have Under our development regulations what our development regulations are really pulling for and encouraging the applicant to group The dwelling units together and to preserve open space in a contiguous fashion so there was some discussion early on about some of the commentary from the conservation commission about Making sure that there was a minimum width to the open space So that's part of what we're trying to pull for in the regulations So even though the individual lot sizes may be You know less than two acres and three acres whatever metric you want to use That that density is calculated over the entire The entire project But we would expect and hope that there would be some sort of clustering together For any variety of reasons it reduces the amount of impervious surface It helps to preserve An unfragmented forest there are a lot of reasons for it So but that's part of the thinking that goes into the design of lots like that I understand that the area behind my lot and splitting in half and Clustering two houses right beyond that lot I mean there's got to be a little better way out than that Other than clumping all those lots Right behind a development you know existing development area With you know you have You have 51 plus acres to work with And you take any cluster and you can take the four a little over four The six acres and put in the four houses It's just that you're sending it in Based on the development bylaws We would love to expand the size of these parcels And do more with them, but with the steep slopes that restrictions that we have We're sort of limited because those have to be inside of We have to be Red has to stay in the open space so Because of that trying to have lot layouts, you know all over the place Wouldn't really work one with steep slopes and two with the plan of trying to keep things clustered The second part of that is keeping things clustered for reduced impervious and things of that nature So I agree that the the lot sizes are small but With the 50 acres that we have in conservation and the availability to use that land for these people that will be living there They have more land available to them even though I get it, you know for them. Yeah for what it does to everyone else around them You know You take away from an area that used to be totally open and you dump four houses Right in small one acre lines in backyards right in our backyards Well, they're in our yard, but they have bought your backyard Yeah, but one of there are you know, and with that once again, you know, I'd like to bring up that lot for That is a hill You know, you can say all you want about it, but That's not a level law No, I wouldn't consider it level at all. We have slopes up to 29 Could be based on the way this slope analysis was performed The orange Let's you go up to 29 once you get into 30 and above just like the board You take that into consideration that those lots are awful small for if you took a look down south Werner road And I understand the cluster trying to keep open land But also understand the lots that you're fighting and what you're doing for them also Yes, we'll okay. That's all I think we have your point And I think we understand where you know where you're coming from where you're coming from. So, yeah I'm not My name is Craig Samson. I look at 120 roads. We drive And rather than Take the next hour and a half to read all the notes that I have I'm going to jump in on here with these conversations Because You know, I hear things that are just inconsistent and If you want to first say I can't appreciate enough the dr The fact that you came out with a four page plus letter saying hey, something doesn't jive here And you need to go back and do this this this and this And the fact that they had recommended that it be continued to the 12th and then 10 reports get handed out None to the audience And you sir were like, well, it looks like we have everything we need but should we do we have to continue it? And I understand where you're coming from because sure why I mean it looks good Um I got so many things to say and I really appreciate the staff saying no we need to continue this And this is an example of why we need to continue this Because we have gotten along as neighbors and we have spoke to each other and everything's wonderful and fine Until somebody wants to do something and I am totally for somebody using their land for what they want to use it for Let me be the first to say that I am a live and let live person However, not but However, we do have boards and we do have hearings and we do have regulations and we do have conservation And we do live in the green mountain state And so therefore we do have to get along within those those laws whether I have rights or You know randy and joe have rights. We all have to do our best to get along with those rights I completely understand Because to sell it down the road I completely understand what the four houses United parcel of land that never had any and was enjoyed to sled down for years with their kids I ran around with my kids up in those back 51 acres. I was told by randy that we still could do that I was also told by randy that this was not going to get developed Maybe a house for mom and mom Maybe one more house for the child or the children And that has since changed so Believe me. I got plenty to say and I'm glad it's going to get continued to the 12th because I've discussed with engineers. I've discussed with my real estate attorney This map overlay. I'm already getting off. I understand his concern about that is slow. That is greater than 30% and I hear I hear you say He's concerned about 1.1 acres and I was understanding that you needed 1.83 or 1.8 for For 80,000 feet square feet Um, one acre is just over 43,000 Great, you did you did hear mr. Bell. I did hear his explanation and that was great because I'm like, oh, okay Because they have the common area to use so you can get away with it being under 1.84 However, his concern is is why cluster it right there? Originally the plan came out and the project was 17 losses. What we're allowed for 17 units However, we only want the DRB give us 7 And then that was corrected. Melinda, you say that that was corrected. You know Yeah, you can only get 14 and then I just heard you re-correct that tonight and say no We can actually get 15 but we're still going for the 7 and then he just asked why shut them all in one spot spread them out because you just said it is hard To make the bigger lots because Of the way the land pattern is so how in the world can you get 17 15 or 14? If you're having a hard time giving some nice great open space to seven I just want to address that now Craig we they are only asking for seven. So, oh, they're allowed. They're allowed 14 15 16 13 What have you depending on depending on how you count it preliminarily? Yes They are allowed. That's where we are. We are at pre-app. So this is a conceptual Conceptual discussion, which is what we're doing. Yes And at the moment the concept is seven I think you're going to find out real quick when we all hear that well It's hard to with all the slopes and with the wetlands and this and that in the forestry. We want to leave buffers We have to stick them white where we have to go Remember remember again that pre-app. This is pre-app pre-app. So This is this is the abiding landowners. That's why we're here And I don't think anything was malicious by the Du Bois is not getting the letter Because I think you as the board are going to do and as the town you're going to do your due diligence outside of that the landowners Outside of the legal I think people are going to do what they want to do. So I can't be grateful enough that we have this process And I'm looking forward to the 12th as well That's not like you cut yourself off though. Did you have more you wanted to say? Oh, I do I'm going to cut myself off because that addresses that Others in the audience Anybody else? Understand that this is being continued. I'll say this for the fourth time This is being continued to the 12th. You will have an opportunity to go through this another time on the 12th This is not your only opportunity. Yes, ma'am. If you could state your name and your address That's correct and you said that that information was required by the fourth Yes, sir That means that we can get on the website and we can put that down on the fourth and then we can get that to our engineer Probably not So we will we will scan the information when it comes in we will do our best to get it on By the afternoon of the fourth Understand that there will be other things we will be doing on a busy Monday morning But we will do our best to scan the plans and put them up on the website so that they're available Okay, and because nobody else Stood up the answer that you have somehow to say I don't want to leave that matter Yep Go for it. That's that's why we're here So if you look at this, this looks like an outlines everywhere that this parcel of property owns Would you oh that? Oh, this is all outlined area. It comes out. Oh, look, there's my property right there. Oh, there's the hearts. There's the features There's the new boys' Knights over here. So you look at this and then you got this right here, which is that new right of way It's always been a right way. That's the road right there That's coming up to do this and so as to allow five houses per private road in the town of wilson These houses were proposed to put here because there's one two three on it already What's interesting and confusing to me at the same time Is that this coast from my house? This is a right of way And according to my deed and the records deeded in the town of wilson This is not this property And what confuses me is that this makes it look like this is this property And so if this is confusing me and some of the things that were deliberately Brought up is confusing and this is just the pre-app process I really sure hope by the 12th that a lot of this gets corrected Because it's going to be a long road A very long road. I don't understand why is that a um so that That long narrow Point that that is yeah, that's your property. Is that so that should that even be listed on there if that is only a right Away Should that should that be listed that should if that's a right away not owned by the applicant That shouldn't be listed shown on that correct No way, right? So we we got our property boundaries based on tax map. So even when we continue to the 12th This is still pre-app. So it's still going to be pretty elementary as far as our proposal. So But it is exactly if that that's not the only land owned by the applicant I will have to check on that to be sure because we got our We got our property lines from tax map. We did not do a boundary survey of this So at this pre-app stage, you know, if we can continue going forward, eventually boundary survey will be part of that But I will check the other issue embedded in this though is that it's going to be up to the applicant To make sure So they're they're talking about accesses coming over some form of an easement And it's up to them to ensure that they have a legal right to use that. It's not something that we're going to guarantee It's up to them. And so whether that whether that exists and has been deeded properly in the deeds or not That's that's something to be worked out between the applicant and any other landowners that there may be an easement across their land so You know, that's not for us to pass muster on. This is what I mean There are and it is and if you like the tax method to work downstairs in in this building And you get the same copy that I picked up today that shows that this is not owned land By this so that will need to be addressed in the next time they got You can see where I can get a little like wow. What's next? We've got to make sure that We don't allow any fast ones to be pulled. No, I'm sure you're not looking to do that You're going to do it to the letter of the law and this board here is going to hold you to that here Yes, sir. So the easement that you have on your property Was that in perpetuity or was that only while that building was there? The original trailer I would love to say it was only while it was there But I know that Okay, just curious it is I have a right of way through this property to get to my house They have a right of way through both of our properties to get to their house And you over at one of this land and its getters Have the right of way to get to this property Through all of us But that is not their property And if it were When mr. Brinnell came and asked me for an easement for the high voltage power line to go under that road And I handed on and I said you're going to develop it And when I finally a month later got a straight answer from them Am I going to hold that hostage if and I offered to even buy that and not But as soon as I said I don't want it developed And I don't want to connect it through and by the way, that's another right of way and he knows that This is another right of way over here The deal was all off and then he finally answered me honestly And then here we are a month later. Oh the answer honest was no I'm not going to maybe my mother-in-law stops and here we are two months later. So so craig and it is going to get to Yes Not to cut you off, but i'm going to cut you off Yes, ma'am A pre thing Yes, it would have said that this was pre out But you know what ma'am you should you I'm glad you're here I am Because you're here you're hearing you're hearing it. It's a it's a good round. It's a good round discussion Other questions or comments from the audience Any other questions or comments from the board? Is it too early to talk about wealth? There is the recommendation or I guess the condition that we would be That addresses the 200 foot that that recommends adopting what the conservation commission had recommended which included a 200 foot minimum Habitat buffer or whatever So the recommendations are made It's a recommendation They don't have to necessarily address it and they do so at their own peril Yeah, so i'm guessing just pointing out note that there is that out there the 200 foot Minimum that yes very very much aware of it Probably will not be able to make that 200 feet. Um I I don't see that being possible Dave. I would stress for the board that at pre application What's what comes out of this is at most a series of recommendations? They're not final decisions on your part. They're recommendations where you're you're communicating to the applicant Here's what we're looking at based on the information you have right now It doesn't tie your hands down Um, it you know, ideally It should be you know, kind of signaling what you're looking for But you it's not a decision. It's not a permit And so it's and and the applicant gets a series of recommendations that should help them In their thinking for what they might submit And then the other thing the applicant potentially gets is To be able to move forward to growth management And then that's it and then assuming they get allocation Then they have to submit all their detailed engineering and all that documentation And then you would review it and then you would make a decision on You know what you're really what you're really going to require But it's very possible that on any one of a number of recommendations When you had the full and complete engineering you you could change your mind very easily because you'd go I get you know, I I don't think that's feasible for one reason or another for example So, um, I think it's important to to emphasize that it's a recommendation And so that the applicant doesn't say but you said back on December the 12th Well, we said we recommended that but You know, doesn't mean we can't you know, we can't refine our thinking further Another item when you talk with ken you better figure out We're going to locate that cistern that he's going to probably insist upon Yes, just Yeah, I one more item to put on your list of things to do. Yes, definitely Would you like that by December 12th if I can I'm just saying is that's something that you need to be aware of Yes, we have lots of meetings. I've spoke with bruce briefly even after he said no comments I went and said you must have something to say and Trying to reach out to everybody, but we are still in pre-app So I'm not trying to go too far ahead of ourselves In case something changes here that way. I don't take up the fire chief's time too many times Thank you I'm asking all right, so I just want to state and because if If join the portion of any of this Is the willingness Then I really want to make sure we find two columnists that know other portions that we correct that one And then we find two is calling the rest of them and I'm just going to let you know I am going to ride this From here all the way to the end at every meeting Eventually accompanied by People who can speak more fluffy than me Okay, so with that said The handout that trudel TCB did give that the town has had that we all have the right to print out They gave us these lovely pictures of forestry trails of from the north to the east Rosewood Drive never looks so good on this one And and this one is my favorite open fields This isn't even their property Pictures in here, so if I put the posh mahal on my website, can I sell tickets to it? This is my point. My point is if any portion of it is not correct whether knowingly or deceitfully We really really really need to make sure so you have an opportunity to take that information and write the staff a note Thank you for the time and I will stay No, don't ask is anybody here. We are here to take testimony that is what you're doing anybody else I just want to encourage people that if you write a letter and submit it to us by december 4th That can be forwarded in the staff packets to the board and I'll get the Information that was provided tonight by Amanda up on the website later this week and try to keep the info flowing on the website And if the butter letters get bounced back in the mail, I'll let Amanda know so we can get those rectified in the future Anybody else from the board? Anybody from the audience continuing this to december 12th. Thank you for coming Next up is dp18-10 rpk enterprises llc Mr. Kimball, you have seen the inner workings of the board Thanks for picking me last Everybody everybody if you could step outside, please Thank you Okay, we're going to open up dp18-10 vermont mechanical rpk enterprises llc We're going to open up a 10 36 Randy if you could state your name and your address, please Randy Kimball rpk enterprises 510 Highlands Drive Williston Mr. Bellovo You are the last person standing almost I'm not even standing Okay, so this is a uh, this is a request for approval of a discretionary permit for outdoor storage On a property addressed as 211 Blair park road It's in the industrial zoning district west So the subject property was developed somewhere back in the 90s Has an existing building on it, which I scaled out to be roughly 19,000 square feet There is a parking area in the front of the building as well as a Additional parking to the rear of the building as well as some Approach areas for loading docks at the rear side of the building There are I think it's three Storage containers as well as a dumpster to the rear of the building Came to my attention from a neighbor that there was outdoor storage there And there were some questions as to whether or not There might have been an encroachment across a property line I didn't see any evidence for the latter point But on the issue of the outdoor storage outdoor storage is allowed in the zoning district But only by approval Of the drb. So that's kind of how we got here tonight So the applicant has these they're like their storage containers Outdoor storage takes a number of forms in some cases We have loose materials that are stacked up in some cases We have manufacturers that store finished products, etc In some cases we may have A an applicant who has some Some storage containers like this The bylaw does require that they be located Either to the side or the rear of the Of the building and that they be screened in this particular case They're all to the rear of the building We did not make a hard recommendation on screening There's there's kind of a mixed bag out here on the one hand To the to the west of the subject property. There's a fairly large area. That's that's that's wooded In a similar fashion to the north On the east it's probably a little bit more open because there is a I think it's 150 foot Velco easement that goes Looks like it's calling it as 50 feet wide utility easement for velco that goes through there And velco has restrictions on kind of vegetation you can put in there I think if the board does consider approving the use you might want to consider whether there needs to be some sort of whether it's additional planting Or perhaps some sort of offense around around this area So when we do have outdoor storage We look at one of the things we look at is whether or not it's going to Is it going to take away parking that's going to Render the property non conforming. So we've got a count of roughly 43 parking spaces The basic standard for industrial is one space per thousand square feet Which is roughly 19 spaces. So The property seems to be be parked with existing facilities. That's in excess of In excess of what we would typically call for and we did Solicit comments from the fire department the public works department. We received none And there was a written statement that was dropped off here prior to the meeting. I have not Read it other than scanned it briefly before my turn to speak tonight, but That's been submitted for your consideration as well All right, thanks. Did you get a copy of that? I got a copy of that. We have a second copy around Ken. Yeah So Ken is Ken has given the What would you like to add to that? um nothing other than the fact that um Through ignorance of my own being the first property that I purchased to move my business into Um Back in december of 2013. I should have asked permission to set those containers before I actually did Two of them came from my previous location with us Truthfully, I never gave it a thought we placed them where we thought we They they they uh, they worked for us and didn't take away from any parking spaces whatsoever from what was originally on the site Um, the other thing that that I changed when I moved in in december or actually moved in in may of 2014 Was the original site plan that I was given when we purchased the property was produced in 2004 And that site plan showed the dumpster down inside of a truck loading dock area that Was inaccessible So, um, again without any forethought other than how it worked around the site So the site plan actually showed the dumpster in the loading dock. Yes. Yes. That makes a ton of sense. It didn't make any sense So it was an unworkable location. That's interesting. Be curious to see that Um for it to work for us. We simply moved it on top of the paved area in a location that didn't distract from vehicles moving in and out Semi trucks coming in and out and was allowed for Waste disposal people to access it. So that was really it Other than that, I think Ken Captured all of it So which dumpster was the one that that you moved? Was it the two external or was it the extra scrap metal dumpster? What I? Um, what I brought with us when we moved from our south brilliant location Oh, the um the the scrap metal dumpster. Yes Yeah Well, I should say we moved it because there was really only one dumpster shown on the plan the previous business wasn't a sheet metal company So I don't know what they did for For waste management Just just so I can kind of bring myself up to speed. I'm a little familiar with your business What are you we have a letter from mrs. O'Brien? Yes mrs. O'Brien Sorry um We have a letter from mrs. O'Brien. Can you randy? Can you Can you go through? Noise being generated at your site metal dumping The dumpsters being picked up dropped off timing time frame Just give the board a rundown of um Of how you operate Your business You know where where there is noise generated outside of the outside of the building the the um Fabrication site of our business, which is in essence the last back two-thirds of the building Operates from seven in the morning till three thirty in the afternoon seven to three thirty On rare occasion we may work a saturday saturday morning, but rarely Sheet metal is produced in the lower right hand corner of the building Scrap metal is brought out Periodically during that time period and placed in that dumpster In the summertime, how often does that happen? Maybe once a day once a day maybe twice a day depending on the workload Um, you were about to say in the summertime In the summer in the summer times the guys have a tendency to leave an overhead door open So there could be noise coming out the back of the building, I suppose And that's when everybody I work up front and I don't I don't hear when I'm up front I'm when I'm out in the front parking lot. I don't hear it, but I suppose if your windows are open too, right, right? Where is 119 o'brien relative to the woods this picture? Where's your house in relation to? I'm right here. I'm right under this You're under the wonderful picture there Okay, that's not just curious. Okay now. I get now you location you share that information with the rest of this Missal Ryan, where could you share that with the rest of the board? Where is it again? Look on the location. She's hiding down in this The pie shape she's under that she's under that that white square. Okay It's the pie shaped lot on the location map that I put in your stat notes. Okay. Thank you Okay You know, I'm certainly cognizant of the fact that I have a commercial lot that backs into a corner and it's surrounded on three sides by residential property Um I'm fully aware of that and I would the last thing I want to be is a is a bad neighbor um But we also have An approval to operate this in this building and we're We we under we under yeah, I it is an approved use. Um, so the so the question the question, you know really comes down to We have a homeowner who's near, you know, who yeah Is basically asking you what can you do to cut the noise down? She's asking us to deny it, but but yeah I mean, I mean the obvious thing is to work It's an allowed use Because it's part of the process. It's part of the process of us having a Public hearing we would grant a permit for outside storage assuming the board agreed with that You have this you have discretion to approve it. I think the The the key is you also have the discretion to approve it subject to conditions And so what those conditions might be, you know, it could vary depending upon The circumstances present on the property and the nature of the request I'd like to just point out one thing for the board's Um informational purposes that this area here is is outside Of our property line. It is not our property So there's construction activity that occurs there as well That I have no control over and it's right up behind your property So I just want to make sure the board's clear that that's out of my jurisdiction to deal with what happens On that piece of property Is is mizza brian? Are you clear that dw is different than what what they're doing? Okay, okay, no, and I don't mean to drag dw into this I just yeah, I know some of the pictures that came along from the original complaint To to mr. Bellovo included pictures of this property. Okay. They were attached to my certified letter So Questions questions from the board What are you proposing knowing that this is an industrial use and allowed use what are you what are you proposing that would Help you history which nobody Want to hear where the town literally promised When all of that land was developed look at the whole map The back of Blair park, which is three lots original We're all to be low-key small professional type businesses That was promised by the town it took it took almost years to work out an agreement before they converted That property and you know, he's just here because he bought the property a few years ago Act 250 it's all on record in act 250. It's buried in the town records Um in the archives somewhere that these are not supposed to be industrial type Buildings on those lots His business has been Terribly noisy and I think the complaint that was probably filed was because of noise in particular The other thing is that there's nobody here because there's there's a little ring around that property that Cuts off where the other people all the residences would have been Notified Of a hearing so no one really knows there's a hearing about this adding more outdoor space or more storage here but it literally is like having dumpsters sat in front of your house And having them dumped into and having Garbage trucks come in and having semis come in and it's all day long And if you were just sitting there On your deck or in your house and you were just sitting there all of a sudden That's what it feels like when you hear What is going on in his Building And it's all the time it shakes my house on occasion So I you know, I just want you to understand It's not one little piece of metal And they don't just float in on clouds Of course they don't so You know for this to be a discretionary permit of any sort I don't really understand the term As it is used in this permanent But I think that it has to be taken seriously The town made representations for 40 I have spent tens of thousands of dollars Just maintaining what was promised years ago I shouldn't have to keep doing it I am prepared To bring dumpsters and put them in three or four of your backyards And have them removed every couple of days Have them filled With all kinds of junk So that you understand What it sounds like So let me let me let me interrupt you for a second or let me let me jump in So you've been before the board before in a pre Other times With this with this with this the same comments Well on various occasions In the back you will see That the previous zoning boards for 20 years So maintain the agreement. I have a point. I'm gonna try and make a point Ken We have a we have an applicant who has a building In a in a in a um zoning district that is improved Is use is industrial Use that's allowed Um Can you speak at all and I'm not sure you can to What miss o' brian has been saying about where this was at some point to how It got to where it is now. Maybe I'm asking maybe I'm asking you to do something you shouldn't even be doing, but It's okay. I won't be the first time Sorry, so um A lot of what is being discussed right now it predates my time here So I can't I can't quote you chapter and verse as if I was here Um, I think one thing is really clear to me is that we have this Wedge of industrial zoned property Wedged in residential properties Um That's not something that I would ever advocate for ever So, but that's what I was it advocated for in the original approvals by the town 250 On and on at infinite right and then again, that's all before my time Since I've been here, you know the zoning was here the building was here When randy talked to us four or five years ago before he bought the property You know, what do we do we look on this we look on the zoning map and say yep, that's what zoning district It's in we look in the bylaw and we say what's the range of allowed uses And the i z d w allows as we've already talked about on an earlier application It allows a broad range of uses And you know, uh somebody that manufacturers distributes installs HVAC equipment is is a permitted use in this zoning district again um This is not in my opinion the ideal location for a property zoned in this fashion, but it's here and You know, it's how how it was that it got zoned for this type of use I don't know. Uh, it was that way when I got here and you know, we've we've we've tried to administer as as As best we can But the building was approved and you know, the applicant's not Is not proposing to build any new buildings that he's he's proposing to put these Storage facilities in an area that's already That's already paid and that's the you know, that's the question that's before the board today Was this tree burn was this uh construction of a tree berm agreed to by the town? You know at some point in time did the town say that there there would be a treed uh berm put in I would think that would be something of uh that should be able to be discovered In our document shouldn't it There may be a treed berm, but it may not be on this property So, you know as it's already been pointed out the property that goes around um Randy's property It's you know, I don't know what they were thinking when they did what they did But it's like it's not something that any of the current staff would ever advocate for the so this is the you talk about the jay parker parcel Yes, yeah, I mean this is like this is like I don't know It's from the twilight zone that somebody would approve the creation of a lot in this kind of configuration Um, but again, I don't know what the history was I don't know why that was the way it was Was that because some town board thought that was a good idea? And that was going to provide some sort of an effective buffer from neighboring properties I don't know. Was it was it a dumb idea of an applicant? I don't know It could be either of those but all that's been there Since certainly since we've been here, but it's a it's a wacky configuration for land. Um It is one of the problems is what it is One of the problems where there aren't all the people here is because They don't get notified you have landmine acres to the rear of that property You have more people on a brine court that don't get notified because parker Sort of cuts everybody off But I've talked to many people in there It is it is what it is. Uh, you know again the property Those property lines are there Again, I don't know what somebody was smoking when they approved them, but that's what we got And you know, that's what we have to that's what we have to History has to be looked at, you know, you're always talking about historical, you know this and that and like I can't park the car over here Because my neighbors might say it because it's in the historical zone Well, let's look at the history of the problem. Let's look at how it was drawn up Let's look at the covenants that are on it Let's look at why there are berms and why there are setbacks and why there are No build zones I'm not just those four lots in Blair park I mean, I'm not okay. I hate to say this The horse is out of the barn The horse is something is out of the barn You know It's over right? I mean you can keep you can keep on fighting it and and I and I guess I encourage you to do that If that's if that's you know, you've been here before and we do listen to you There's not a heck of a lot we can do about this. It's it's it's done Building itself the building itself they had to make sure that air conditioners were relocated that the Dumpsters were not in In plain view that they were hidden that they were soundproofed that they didn't that they had plastic containers on them So, yeah, all those items would normally be taken into consideration Questions comments Well, it is the issue for me And I can't put them in the street, so I think that in this case I think that in this case mr. Kimball it has said he does wish to be a good neighbor I think it's up to you To be Certainly tension I get that Have never met you either Yes, David what was that I'm saying one of the good fences make good neighbors, right? Maybe a big fence could make Why doesn't he said he doesn't hear on his side of the building? Why doesn't he put them on the other side of the building? Was that again? It was a dumpster inside of the Permit, maybe it has to be below grade now Well, it was never below grade. It was sitting on pavement Well, maybe they think and dramatically from what it was and I don't know if that was ever approved Barriers and everything out so that you couldn't even get that many cars back there, so I don't know if that was still Yeah, what you recall being back there predated me because that's When we bought the property that's how it was we didn't change the parking configuration whatsoever I haven't have a move have a move what to the other side. He's asking for it He's asking for a place to put three storage boxes I'm not sure that they I'm not I'm not sure that storage boxes make a lot of noise. How often do you how often the storage boxes are not the noise issue They're just storage boxes storage boxes. They don't move. They don't but they don't move Well, I think that I think as a court in the matter in the normal course of his business Yes, there he probably generates noise, but I don't believe that what he's asking for currently with this placement of the storage boxes makes any noise configuration has Change because and I don't know if it's been permanent Because a lot of that parking lot was set up so that there were barriers in between The loading predates where our understanding of the lot too So we can do that so ken would you please would you please undertake a study of the file Make sure that everything is as as originally approved Out of curiosity the containers that these these three containers are these the Double door shipping kind the connex boxes. Yes, what the connex boxes. Yes Yes, so what I'm trying to say is are the guys really wailing of shut sometimes. No, I mean they're they're rarely opened Oh, okay so Scott The the records that we've been able to identify Pretending to the development of this property Already tried to scrape together what we could find And does this does this right here represent what you can find? It represents what we can find. Okay This oh brian the original permit that you found The original site plan This represents what the staff can can generate From our files From the staff from the from the town what we found What we found was I think I think all we could find I believe it was a landscaping plan But it showed the building and the parking lots And you know based on my review it it looked like it represented what we saw on the ground today absent the the Storage facilities and things in the back but in terms of the building location the building and the parking areas the paved areas It was all pretty much as it's as we see it as it's represented today We didn't find a set of staff notes with with articulated drb or planning commission decisions conditions of approval so as I said the file was much It was much It was much thinner than we would like to find because because we wanted to we were asking those same questions when we started having these conversations Also said that originally when I was subdivided it shouldn't have been subdivided or whenever subdivided The homeowners were not all of the homeowners were not notified Because the owners of that lot also owned several other lots continuously Ma'am we are not act 250 Okay, I understand that but all that information will also be found at 250 from the town Because all those letters went from the town I'm thinking too. It's 10 after 11 So do we It's an inappropriate news Sorry So why would you add insult to entry by allowing more and more storage and noise and The board will the board will take the board will take that under consideration when it goes into deliberation You're wrong I got your attention though, didn't I With the threat of the dumpsters in my front yard. Yes, you did All right, Randy you give anything else like that? No Do you have any questions for the board for either mr. Kimball or missile brian? Very good. We are going to close dp-18-10 vermont mechanical rpa LLC Thank you You said Okay Everybody ready? Okay, you're uh back up and back up and running. Okay All right, the uh, well the wilson development review board For november 28 now the 29th Uh Conservative session at 12 10 We have a number of items to go through Let's see Would you make a motion for HP 18-013 Or It's authorized by wdb Having reviewed the application submitted and all accompanying materials including their recommendations town staff the advisory boards recommended required to comment on this application by the wilson development by-law and having heard and duly considered to the testimony presented at the public hearing of november 28th slash 2007 Except the finding effect and conclusion of law proposed by the staff and approve 18-013 for the proposed signages Is there any more discussion? This approval authorized the applicant to seek Administrative permit for the proposed development, which must proceed in strict Confirmation with the plans on which this approval is based You want what that is? All right. I think it's I do think it said strict conformance This approval authorizes the applicant to seek an administrative permit for the proposed development which must Proceed in a strict conformance That the plans on which this approval is based I first 2018 Do I have a second? David seconds it any further discussion? all in favor I Six eyes. No nays motion carries Courtney, would you make a Motion to approve hp 18-04 As authorized by Including the recommendations of the town staff and the advisory boards required to comment on this application by the wilson development bylaw And having heard and duly considered the testimony presented at the public hearing of november 28th 2017 except the findings of fact and conclusions of law Proposed by staff and approved hp 18-04 for the proposed signs This approval authorizes the applicant to seek an administrative permit for the proposed development Which must proceed in strict conformance with the plans on which this approval is based Do I have a second? Yeah, I'll second that. John seconds it any further discussion All in favor. I Six eyes. No nays motion carries Okay Yes As authorized by wdb 6.6.3 I John Hemmelgarn moved at the wilson development review board having reviewed the application submitted in all accompanying materials Including the recommendations of the town staff and the advisory boards required to comment on this application by the wilson Development bylaw and having heard and duly considered The testimony presented at the public hearing of november 28th 2017 Except the recommendations proposed by staff for the review of dp 18-07 and authorized the applicant to proceed to discretionary permit review we're going to Change recommendation number two to read if the applicant proceeds with a discretionary permit for this project the maximum area that can be dedicated to accessory sales and accessory services Including food sales is 10 percent of the tenancy Not to exceed 1,500 square feet With the applicant occupying 9,500 square feet The maximum allowed accessory area is 950 square feet We're going to change Recommendation number three to read the drb recommends that it will Consider the proposed outdoor seating area as part of the 950 square feet allowed under wdb 17.3 0.3 That was it. Okay Second Any further discussion All in favor Six eyes no nays motion carries the pp 18-09 brown ale the march seven lot subdivision has been continued to december 12 Kelly would you make a motion to approve dp 18-10? ought mechanical rpk enterprises llc Yes, as authorized by wdb 6.6.3 I peter kelly moved that the wilson development review board having reviewed the application submitted in all accompanying material Including the recommendations of the town's staff and the advisory board is required to comment on this application by the Development by-law and I've heard and duly considered the testimony presented at the public hearing of november 28 2017 accept the findings of fact and conclusions of law proposed by staff and approved dp 18-10 For the proposed outdoor storage This approval authorizes the applicant to file final plans obtain approval of those plans from staff and then seek an administrative permit for the proposed development In strict conformance of the plans in which this approval is based. Thank you Uh, do I have a second? I'll Of course you seconded. Is that correct? Yes. Yes. Very good Any further discussion All in favor. Aye. Aye Six ayes. No nays. Motion carries Mr. Kelly Do I have a motion or dp 09-01 amendment number 12 snider fc commercial properties llc and riley properties llc? As authorized by wdb 6.6.3 I david saladino moved that the wilson development review board having reviewed the application submitted in all accompanying materials Including the recommendations of the town's staff and the advisory boards Required to comment on this application by the wilson development by-law Having heard and duly considered the testimony presented at the public hearing of november 28th 2017 and the findings of fact and conclusions of law Including administrative changes made by staff during the hearing for the review of dp 9-01 amd number 12 and approve this discretionary permit subject to conditions above With the following changes Um Strike conditional approval to a and replace with Integration of enhanced streetscape elements depicted in landscaping plan sheet c4 dated 6 12 17 And revised 11 28 17 as distributed at the at the hearing to respond to the need for a visual feature as noted in wilson historic and Architectural advisory committee memo dated november 13th 2017 modifying conditional approval to be to Add to the end of the sentence The word striking comment number seven regarding sidewalk width Then adding the following two conditions number 24 Applicant shall not be required to construct section of sidewalk along east side of holland lane immediately adjacent to building g um and number 25 Applicants shall construct a crosswalk across the easterly approach of the us2 holland lane boxwood drive intersection Sidewalk approaches and pedestrian signals unless site conditions render the sidewalk connection and feasible Thank you. Do I have a second? second The one point is the construction On building g they will construct the sidewalk when they construct building g Not that they're getting a free pass because the way that's worded. It's like they never have to construct that sidewalk All right, david. Why don't you reread that please? It's until they build they don't have to build the sidewalk until they build building g So revised condition number 24 to state applicant shall not be required to construct section of sidewalk along east side of holland lane Immediately adjacent to building g until building g is constructed On second set any further discussion? All those in favor Uh motion carries Uh, do I have a motion to approve the minutes of november 14th 2017 I'll make the motion to approve the minutes of november 14th 2017 as written with one change I'm not a dain It's s o n not s c n Yeah, the danes are s c n's The religions are wrestling Call for a motion on the master sign plan for the finney hotel as well. Okay, we can let Let's go. Let's let me finish this and then you can go back and do that. Okay Paul made a Paul made a change to his um to hit the spelling of his name any other changes Everybody okay with that? Do I have a second? Second John seconds it any further discussion All in favor. All right Minutes are approved Yep, bear with me I got to find this master sign plan Do I have a motion For dp 09-01 And As authorized by wdb 6.6.3 I david salgina move at the wilson development review board having reviewed the application materials submitted and that All accompanying materials including the recommendations of the town staff and advisory boards required to comment on this application by the Wilson union by development bylaw and having heard and duly considered the testimony presented at the public hearings Exceptifying the fact This approval authorizes the applicant to submit final plans obtained approval of these plans Staff and then seek an administrative permit for future development Which must proceed in strict conformance with the plans on which this approval is based Thank you. Do I have a second Paul seconds it any further discussion All those in favor Uh one abstention one abstention Uh motion carries Do I have a motion to adjourn the meeting at 12 22? So moved Thanks everybody That was good long for good I'll remind you guys of this on the 12th