 Hello everyone and welcome to this special episode of Marx's Voice. My name's Adam Booth, the editor of Socialist.net. I'm your host for tonight. And of course for those who aren't aware, this Marx's Voice is the channel and podcast of Socialist Appeal, the British section of the International Marxist Tendency. We are the Marxist Voice of Labour and Youth, as we say. You can follow us obviously on all our social media channels, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, YouTube and of course tonight we're having this special broadcast because of the incendiary events really that have exploded today in terms of the Labour Party, the release of the EHRC report into alleged anti-Semitism within the Labour Party and of course most noticeably the suspension, the outrageous, scandalous suspension of Jeremy Corbyn by the new Labour leadership for coming out in defence basically of the left and some of the accusations have been levelled around anti-Semitism and obviously this has seen Jeremy Corbyn suspended today as a member and had the whip withdrawn as an MP. And tonight to discuss these events and most importantly how the left should respond, we're very lucky to be joined once again by Rob Sewell, editor of Socialist Appeal. So welcome there Rob, thanks again for joining us tonight. And I guess really the first obvious question is what exactly do these events today represent? What is the suspension of Corbyn? Clearly you know many people would say this is picking the Labour Party to say it's an outreach and it's a scandal. But on the other hand you could say that it's not a complete surprise given the trajectory of the past six or nine months where Stair Karma as a Stalmer rather has basically tried to shift the party to the right and obliterate the Corbyn era. And as a consequence he's removed all the left wingers from the shadow candidate and even got rid of Rebecca Longbailey. And clearly he's trying to prove himself as the safe pair of hands for capitalism that he's an establishment man and as he says the Labour Party's under new management, new leadership. We're back to the good old days when the right wing controlled the Labour Party. So this is part of this really, it's part of the process and therefore I don't think we should be shocked by it but it shows how ruthless the right wing are prepared to be when it comes to defending their particular patch. And I think know thy enemy, it's clear that the right wing in the Labour Party and the trade unions of that matter are the attack dogs of capitalism. They are the defenders of capitalism in the ranks of the Labour movement. And as a consequence of course they defend capitalism, they also defend their own careers which is also very important as far as they're concerned. And they're prepared to take whatever measures are needed to serve that particular end. And the reason for this, the reason why they're so strident and the reason why they're prepared to take these measures is because they feel the backing of the establishment of capitalism, of the bourgeois press, of the ruling class that stands behind them and urges them on. And therefore they feel confident to be able to engage in this kind of the beginning of a purge really in the Labour Party. And I think we have to appreciate that, that behind them stands capitalism and the interests of capitalism and they would like to go the whole hog. You know, I think it was Tony Blair who said that to really turn back the clock to pre-Covin days we have to expel or get rid of one form or another 300,000 ordinary Labour Party members and whether they're expelled or driven out or demoralized by any means necessary and that's what they're attempting to do. And this is part of this process I believe. So really it's a declaration of war by this new leadership. As you say, they've even had this campaign where they've signified what new leadership they are, the flag waving, the patriotism, the rightward turn. And after a few months of kind of repeating the hollow, vacuous statement for unity and so this really seems to be like this is a declaration of war now, this is the right wing throwing the gauntlet down to the left. And as you said it's really going beyond just the question of Jeremy Corbyn himself but I've seen today there's reports coming out that staffers at Labour HQ are being told to basically trawl social media and look for anyone who's defending Corbyn and agreeing with his statements regarding some of the criticisms he's made around the EHRC report and the accusations of anti-Semitism. So clearly they are, as you say, going for an entire purge of the left. There's also the campaign against anti-Semitism which is a kind of right wing campaign being led against the left. They've also said that they want to see investigations into 15 other Labour MPs, all left wingers, people like Diane Abbott, Richard Bergen, Rebecca Long Bailey. So as you say this is really the beginnings of an attempt to expunge the left from top to bottom. And why do you think it's now that they're trying to kind of go about this? Why have they waited until this point to suddenly make this big bold move? Well it's obviously planned, there's no question about that. It's a strategy and they believe that I would imagine that the report from the ER was that EHRC was going to be the firing shot for a declaration of war on the left and an attempt to drive out the militant ranks in the constituency parties. And clearly that's part of the setup. We know that this question of anti-Semitism has been used for political ends. It's quite clear we're against anti-Semitism in all its forms, but it was certainly blown out of popular old proportion and used deliberately by the right wing as a means to attack Corbyn, attack the leadership and sabotage the Labour Party. And again they haven't finished with this particular weapon if you like, which is a scandal. And yes they're now going to try and find anybody who supports Corbyn or justifies Corbyn's stand is potentially in the firing line to get removed from the Labour Party. But this is no time to hide. I think this is a question of standing up to these people. And a fight should be declared. We can't just mess about. If there's a weakness, then it invites greater aggression as we know. And if they think that people are going to accept it, then they will be emboldened to carry through further and further measures. And that is why it's imperative that the left makes a stand, it goes on the offensive. The best form of defence is attack precisely. And there should be attack. I mean Stammer came into the leadership promising to defend the 10 points and the Herod Jits is the so-called Corbyn and unity above all unity. What's unity going to do with this measure? Unity is out of the window. And that's just a ploy in order to get votes to get elected. And once he was elected, then he's to prove to the establishment he was the man who was going to carry through an attempted counter-revolution in the Labour Party to bring the Labour Party back, as I said, under the domination of the right wing itself. And so this is just a preconceived plan in order to accomplish this. But it's easier said than done, of course. You can have a plan, but whether it goes can be carried out. It depends on the resistance that is shown. And that's, of course, they have attempted. I know there's a circular going on from the general secretary of the Labour Party to all constituencies, basically saying you can't discuss the question of this report from the Equalities Commission. It's a legal matter. They cannot raise issues. In other words, they've attempted to bury the discussion. And they've used this pandemic, by the way, because there's no Labour Party meetings taking place in a face-to-face capacity. They've used this in order to secure their position and really squeeze out people and demoralise people in order to strengthen their position. It strikes me as quite similar, Rob. It strikes me as quite similar in that respect. The real opportunists, these right wingers, as you say, this is clearly orchestrated. I was watching Keir Starmer's statement, official statement that he put out from the Labour Party earlier today. And every single one of the questions that they invited in was obviously prearranged, and it was all from the usual mainstream media channels. And every single one of them was saying, you know, this isn't going far enough. You need to suspend Corbyn. Are you going to do that? Are you willing to do that? And then, lo and behold, obviously the suspension of Corbyn came and then you've got the calls for the suspension of other left wingers, other MPs, other members. It all seems highly orchestrated to me, and very reminiscent, actually, of the 2016 chicken coup, where, again, they took advantage of the kind of chaos in the wake of the Brexit referendum result to suddenly launch this attempt to get rid of Corbyn back then. Only now, obviously, it's not just removing Corbyn. Corbyn's already gone. It's now it's trying to remove, as you say, the hundreds of thousands of members that stand in the way. Now, back then, we fought the chicken coup with kind of mass mobilisation. You saw momentum calling big demonstrations, and it was really the grassroots kind of response that actually overturned that and defeated that coup attempt. Do you think we need something like that again today, really? You know, this kind of groundswell of a mass campaign to fight back? Sure. And if momentum and the left are worth a salt, this is what they should be doing. It's a battle for the survival of the Labour Party in many respects, and they've got to be the forefront of it. The members of parliament, now's the time. There's no point in beating around the bush, hoping that Stammer's going to be nice and gentle to everybody else, and this is just to keep quiet, keep unity. Some people said, you know, it still means unity. Well, I can have unity with people stabbing you in the back. Anyway, this is nothing new. Let's be clear about it. You mentioned the chicken coup in 2016. It's been an ongoing civil war since 2005. As soon as Corbyn got elected, there's been a civil war in the Labour Party pursued by the right wing, you know, backed by the capitalists and the media in order to discredit Corbyn on the one hand and to basically undermine the whole left wing in the party. It's been an ongoing battle, and this is the culmination. Unfortunately, I would say that the left in the past didn't meet that challenge as it should have been done. As I explained before, the right wing are quite ruthless when it comes to defending their position, and that's been historically in the Labour Party. You know, this is not the first time they've attacked the left. You know, in the 1950s, they tried to expel Naib Evin. You know, they talked about the great Naib Evin, you know, built the National Health Service. These people, they took the whip off him, and they tried to expel him. And every time the left have attempted to act more boldly, the right wing have taken vicious action in expulsions and so on, they talk about a broad church. You know, there are only churches they're interested in. It's their own right wing church, you feel like, and you know, it's a farce. It's quite clear that the right wing, as I said earlier, they represent the interests of capitalism, and therefore they're very determined in what they want to do, and have a clear message of where they want to go. And that the left itself had really made some serious mistakes in the last period, in the last five years. There were many opportunities where the left could have swept out the right wing careerists in the party, could have brought back the socialist constitution that was purged by Tony Blair, and we could have had a fully fledged socialist party fighting against the Tories at the present time, minus this sabotage from the right wing in the party. And the failure, really, is this attempt to believe that the right wing are somehow comrades of ours, or colleagues of ours, you know, and they're clearly Tory infiltrators who are hell-bent on defending the interests of capitalism within the ranks of the Labour Party, and the trade unions for that matter. And the whole ethos is to cleanse the Labour Party of elements who are tempted to change society and reinforce the position of those who see capitalism as the main beneficiary, if you like. And, you know, the trade union leaders are very... How can you say? They could have used their weight because they effectively controlled the Labour Party. At Labour Party conference, 50% of the vote is determined by the trade unions. And when you consider the vast majority of the constituency Labour parties, the ordinary Labour parties are controlled by the left, then it would be quite easily to carry through radical policies, bring in open selection or, you know, automatic reselection of MPs, and adopt all the policies that were needed that would transform the Labour Party completely. Unfortunately, they were interested in compromise. There was never a right time, they said, to bring in in things. And therefore, they scuttled the attempts by the rank and file to transform the Labour Party completely. You know, we had the instance of Clause 4, where the vast majority of constituency parties voted in favour of restoring Clause 4, which is the socialist commitment that the Labour Party had, which was abolished by Tony Blair. And yet, this was blocked by the trade unions, which is at a time when they could have easily been carried, and therefore, we've been in a different position. Likewise, with open selection. Yeah, we had a position where 90% of constituency parties favoured open selection, and they wanted to debate it and push it through. And yet, we saw the role of the trade unions, 90% of the vote of the trade unions was to block such a discussion. And therefore, that opened the way then for the defeat of the left, as a matter of fact, because the only way you can challenge the right-wing in the Parliamentary Labour Party is give democracy to the rank and file of the party. There's no other way. And if you refuse to do that, then you're going to end up in a mess. And this whole attempt was an attempt to compromise, where you can't compromise. We have to recognise the real nature of the right-wing, which are agents of an enemy class within the movement. And you can't compromise with them. In fact, they need to be cleared out. They are infiltrators. We need people who are prepared to represent the interests of the working class. And as a result of those measures, all that power, all that energy, all that support for the fundamental transformation of the Labour Party was lost. I mean, once the right-wing get a hold of the reins, they don't mess about. They don't compromise. They don't walk the down the position. They carry through in a vicious way everything that's in their interest to carry through, including the suspension of Jeremy Corbyn. I mean, give the devil their due. They are ruthless when it comes to representing their interests. And it's about time that the trade union leaders acted in the same ruthless fashion, but in the interest of the working class. That's the whole point. Instead of compromising and wheeling and dealing. And it's a reflection really of their politics. That's the problem with it. They think that they have no perspective of socialism. They think they can compromise within capitalism. We'll get a milder, gentler capitalism. They've lost faith in changing society really. And that's a reflection then of their attempt to compromise within the Labour and trade union movement. It's the same method, if you like. You see it also with, at the moment, in response to this act of aggression, even a lot of the left leaders are saying, we need to keep calm. We need to don't rise to the bait. You've had the right-wing spitting in our faces and it's almost kind of turning the cheek and inviting another round of aggression. Inviting them to slap you in the face. It seems very much like throughout, there's been this case of weakness inviting aggression basically. And now, with this kind of declaration of war, you've still got attempts from a lot of the left leaders to try and have that compromise. But as you say, where's the possibility of compromise with these people who clearly represent a whole different set of class interests? They really represent big business agents. What do you think? How should the left really be responding in this situation? Well, certainly. It's got to go on the offensive. It's got to shake itself down and shake itself from the lethargy of the past period and go on the offensive against this move. First of all, to suspend Jeremy Corbyn. But it's only the beginning of an attempted departure within the party and therefore, the trade union should be demanding that Chris Stammer backs off, that Corbyn's reinstated. But that's only just the first thing really. The whole position should be to fight for the real transformation of the trade union and labour movement. Well, the Labour Party's part of the labour movement. And as I said earlier, the problem with the trade unions controlled the Labour Party. If anybody's to blame you of a position that we have now, it's those who just left the situation slipped from their fingers. When there was enormous possibility, through and the tower, because they wanted to compromise and compromise and compromise. And therefore, I would say, there are those who say, well, the trade unions should cut the funding of the Labour Party, because they should disaffiliate from the Labour Party. They should create a new Labour Party. Well, they did a bad job. Not so long ago, how could they do a good job of the new party? What needs to be done is we need to transform the trade unions too. We need fighters in the leadership of the trade unions who are not prepared to buckle, not prepared to give in, not prepared to compromise. As well as in the Labour Party, we need lefts who've got a backbone, basically, who are prepared to fight all the way and not to make, you know, to compromise with the right wing and implicate the right wing. Because all they're doing is stirring up aggression against the rank and file. They're showing weakness, that's the point, when they should be showing a strength and purpose. But that's a reflection, unfortunately, of their politics. The left in the Labour Party, they're very wooly when it comes to socialism and very wooly when it comes to their political aims. And, you know, again, the Keynesians, you know, they want to sort of patch up capitalism. And they don't, you know, well, yes, socialism, perhaps, in the distant future, may be, when they should be saying, look, it's the deepest crisis of capitalism with 300 years. You know, that the working class is facing the greatest attacks on its living standards and conditions that we have ever seen. Now is the time, surely, to fight for the ideas of a fundamental change in society. Of socialism. It's never been more relevant. And yet, you know, they're skirting around the edges. You know, perhaps, can we think of it here? Perhaps you can borrow some money here. And so on. Rather than understanding, we need to root and branch riddance, if you like, of the capitalist system itself and bring about a socialist planned economy. Until you have leaders who are prepared to fight for that, that gives you a sense of purpose, a sense of understanding where you're going rather than an attempt to patch up capitalism, you know, and all that goes with it. And that's what we have to fight, in my opinion, for a, yes, a change in the labour and trade union movement, a fighting for a Marxist tendency that's prepared to go to the end. You need leaders who are going to fight all the way, not to make compromises or, you know, or deals or, you know, are not prepared to fight in the way that's required. And, you know, capitalism will not automatically, you know, vanish on the scene. It has to be overthrown in order to fight to change society. And that requires class fighters in the trade union movement. Class fighters in the leadership of the Labour Party. We're not going to make any concessions to the right wing. This is not a broad church that we're interested in. We're interested in a socialist party that's prepared to fight for socialism. Prepared to put itself at the head of the working class to defend its interests and fight for an alternative society in a big way. And, you know, unless we have that, you're going to have, you know, well, you're going to have compromises made. I mean, you know, the struggle is going to be more protracted because what it requires is a determined struggle against the right wing to the end. And that means confronting capitalism because that's what they defend. And that means the only alternative is a socialist programme in order to galvanise the working class, to galvanise the Labour movement against the right wing, who are defenders of capitalism. So everything can be clearly posed and clearly explained rather than, you know, we're all together and we're in unity. We don't want unity. We don't want a false unity. How can you have unity with people who are going to, as I said, stab you in the back? We're going to sabotage you all the way along the line. And look at this report, you know, given by the Accordities Commission. Didn't mention the sabotage that took place in the report that was leaked in February, I think it was. 800 pages of emails detailing word for word the way in which the officials in the Labour Party headquarters sabotaged Corbyn, sabotaged the election campaign, engaged in racism and misogyny and all the rest of it. Nothing is said about them. They're all there. They're sitting pretty. In fact, the only thing I would argue is why wasn't that report made earlier? Why was it made after Corbyn had left to defeat in the election and Corbyn resigned from the leadership? They should have been made available two years ago and it should have been used to clear out these people and then wage a fundamental struggle to transform the Labour Party, bringing a black cause for giving the democracy to the ranks and so on. And that's the fault of the leadership. What else can you say? Of course we are in favour of fighting the right wing and we will support the left over the right but we want, if people who are in the leadership are going to really conduct the struggle and not compromise with capitalism and think it's a way out under capitalism. It's a prettier capitalism which doesn't exist at all. Therefore, yes, it's a battle. It's, you know, this declaration of war. That's what it is. But it's just a new stage in the war, isn't it? You know, this has been an ongoing civil war for the last five years. It's just that now the right wing have taken the initiative. They've regained control but they're not fully in control. They've retained the parliamentary labour, the leadership. Now they want to purge the vast ranks of the party. That's a different matter altogether. It's easier said than done but if you're going to be passive then they will carry it through. It's got to be, you know, a struggle in order to the end, basically. To fight and fight and fight again is in the words of Hugh Gateskill. To rid the party of those pro-capitalist apologists and transform it into a socialist party. That's the only way you're going to end this situation and that will inspire millions of people down the country, because the reason why Corbyn was undermined fundamentally was because he was being stabbed in the back every single day. These right wingers rushing to the press, rushing to the media, discrediting Torbyn, discrediting the whole party itself. That's how we ended up in the mess we were in and that can, you know, there must be lessons, surely. You know, a drone from this. We can't repeat this mistake. The lessons are that they cannot be any compromise with the right wing. They have to reduce those resources policies to eradicate capitalism as the only solution to the working class itself and bring back the democracy in the party. So we can elect it. Yeah, democratically elect representatives who are going to be fighters in the interests of the working class including people who are not on salaries of £80,000, £90,000, you know, which is where the league of ordinary working people they should be on the salary of a skilled worker's wage. You know, and, you know, to be carried into not just the lay of party but the trade unions. I'm glad to see that unisons have an election where Paul Hums is standing as the left candidate who again has pledged to stand on a workers wage if he wins the general secretary's position. That's the kind of sacrifice you need, that's the kind of leadership you need and if that is the case in unison by the way because that's been a union on the right wing in the movement for a long time that'll be an earthquake in the British labor movement so I think you have to be careful as well there's a lot of pessimism around you know oh well what's happening look there's a fundamental change in the objective situation this crisis is getting deeper and deeper it's going to shake up consciousness of the working class and all classes of society as a matter of fact it's going to turn the trade union will went upside down therefore it's not going to be this kind of quiet life in the labor party for the right wing to this is not the 1950s when they could give reforms they can't give reforms it's counter reforms and therefore there's a crisis of reformism so it's a it's not a this is you know we're in a period of sharp and sudden changes in the situation and if they think if the right wing think that they've sound everything up and everything's hunky dory they got another thing coming because it's the working class we're going to face the brunt of this crisis and they are going to be moving into action into the trade unions and from them there was demand political representation that means a fundamental change in the labor party itself so you know there's big struggles coming this is just the first of them really and you know absolutely we got to get get cracking you know and we got to fight these these this this attempted purge in the in the labor party no two ways about it but there's a bigger battle as well to transform the labor movement arm it with the socialist program and basically transform society itself and that's where Marxism comes in it's a part it it allows us a clear perspective allows us a clear program to understand and we're prepared yes to go to the end you cannot just compromise on this and that's why you know we have to say that the key task is also to build the forces of Marxism in in Britain and internationally for the events that are coming and he said there are stormy events coming revolutionary events coming and therefore I would say we mustn't be pessimistic but look at this to the future there's no basis of of of hope on the on the capitalist basis and millions will be looking to transform and change the society but we have to be prepared for that and understand it's going to be a transformation a retransformation of the labor movement in that coming period in which Marxism can play a very important role and therefore I hope you will help us in that regard by joining us and and preparing the ground for these events that are coming well thank you very much Robert I think that's a good place to end it for tonight very inspiring call to arms really which is what we need right now no weakness no more compromises we've really got a war that's been declared here and it's a no holds barred battle I think really you know the gloves are off and I think you've you've really inspired hopefully activists out there to get out there and fight to get organized and as you say most importantly to join us join socialist appeal the Marxist voice of labor and youth in that fight for a socialist labor party and for a socialist world