 Welcome and thank you so very much for being here, Julie and I are honored to have you for another episode of the nonprofit show. Today we have with us Karen cooks Karen's a consultant out of California and as you just heard if you just heard for the green room chatter. She's got lots of great things to talk about and today's conversation is about cost marketing versus business development. Karen before we dive into this conversation with you we of course want to make sure that our viewers and our listeners know who they're looking at or listening to. Thank you to Julia Patrick for being here and creating this wonderful platform of conversation. Julia is the CEO of the American nonprofit Academy. I'm sure it ran some her personal nonprofit nerd, but everyone's nonprofit nerd because I guarantee you there's enough nerdiness inside of this brain to go around. But I'm also the CEO of my own consulting firm, the Raven group and really honored to serve alongside Julia, each and every day, as we continue to march forward with the nonprofit show thanks so much to our continued presenting sponsors. Those would be Blumerang American nonprofit Academy fundraising Academy nonprofit nerd, your part time controller staffing boutique and the nonprofit thought leader. Many of these companies have been with us since March of 2020. So you've heard us say this before and we'll say it again because we're very prideful of this. Again, thanks to our sponsors. We're coming up on our 600th episode. So I should check today's episode to see exactly which one we're in but we're pretty far along and really excited to continue these conversations like the one that we're going to have now with Karen cooks. You can find us on any of our episodes, or you want to go back and listen because the news was just too good. You can find us on Roku fire TV, as well as Vimeo, and if you're a podcaster, like I am, you can queue up the nonprofit show wherever you strain your podcast. So Karen you've been waiting so very patiently. I know that's hard because it's hard for me to do that. Okay, welcome and thank you so very much for spending some of your time with us today on the show. Oh my God I'm so excited to be here. You know there's nothing I love more really than nerding out about nonprofits and all the data things and, and I'm a fan of the nonprofit show. I won't lie. I won't lie. But you know that and then last night I actually was, if I missed any really good ones that I want to see. And so now I'm all about dog fooding. Oh, thank you. You know what, I have had in the less than 12 now less. Well not quite 24 hours. That's been up. I'm amazed at the people that have reached back out and yeah it's a great great topic so thank you. Thank you. Yeah, all about the dog fooding and I was really happy to see Alice and fine had recently joined you on the show. Big fan there to look we're all just like fan girling over smart people doing smart things and having an impact as as they move along. Well, Karen tell us a little bit about yourself. How do you serve the nonprofit sector. So, currently, I am a business development director in the western states will actually the greater Los Angeles market for the American Heart Association. So, that's a new role for me and it's really interesting to be back in house after many years as an external consultant, taking that big picture view. It's interesting how they're not necessarily mutually exclusive, you know, all of that sort of consulting hat and I say to them all the time it's hard for me to take off my consulting hat to stay kind of in my lane but it turns out that my lane of business development really is much more it's a broader lane than I think some other focus areas so it's it's a nice fit for me and I feel like it can bring a lot from my previous experiences back into an in house role. So that's where I'm at and I'm still you know I have an external client also on the side as a consultant with a company called song hero. So go and have a look at them. And that's where I'm at been in LA for almost for 30 years so you know we were talking in the green room about community, and coming back to community I feel like I have dual citizenship between my roots in Chicago and that neck of the woods and an LA so I'm not bilingual but I am by city ill, I'm by metropolitan, and I love that well and as we talk about you know cause marketing versus business development. That does kind of straddle both sides of the fence and I'm curious if you can start us off in this conversation you know we always say to our guests into ourselves we have to remind ourselves Julia that these conversations go by so very quickly. But let's start us off by saying like what exactly is cause marketing and for those of you watching you'll see on the screen that it says cause marketing is a lighter weight activation so kick us off carrying with just cause marketing in general how do you define this. Yeah, I think if I were going to distill it down to one single thing. It comes down to your it's a time perspective right so to my mind cause marketing is time constrained. If I am in a if I'm in a role in the private sector and I want to partner with an organization in the social sector. I'm likely looking at a shorter time period there is a cut off date there's a start date and a cut off date. My commitment of both time talent treasure is all going to be like a better word right now truncated. It's not less valuable, but it's truncated and it's truncated, most specifically, by time. So when I think of lighter weight activations, I think of a corporate partner in the private sector, who says, we really would like to do, we'd like to be in business with you. But we want to get our maybe we want to get our feet wet, maybe we don't really know how this goes yet we're counting on you to help us get there to help us, you know, to help guide the way. Maybe we don't have the financial resources to really invest in your mission at a in a deeper way but we'll look toward doing that. So I think it is lighter weight in those ways I think it's a nice entry point also for organizations who are looking at expanding their CSR. I mean I think oftentimes we can look at cause marketing type very specifically to CSR goals, you know, employee engagement, how well and how deep are you touching the community all those sorts of data points that you might put as a as a private sector organization in your CSR social impact report. It's a, it's the reverse side of the coin. But again, distilling it down I think when I think of it as a lighter weight activation, it is lighter weight in that it is tied specifically to duration, and then that trickles down duration. What are the other resources you can contribute during that time period. So it's lighter overall. And I think your impact overall by the way is lighter. Okay, I've got to ask this question because would you have given your the same definition before the pandemic, because a lot of what you said, I think resonates to where we are with the great resignation or the great reshuffle employees wanting to talk more about how their employers are engaging. I mean it's kind of an interesting thing. Yeah, that's a great question, great question. For me personally, I think I would have. Okay. But I'm coming from the other side of the equation, when I look at it, right. I'm coming from that side and also to be fair, you know, Jared, you know this. I'm at a certain age to get a master's degree, focus solely on nonprofit leadership and management. So that was all part of my conversation, as we were heading, or the way that I was thinking going into the pandemic and so I think pandemic really amplified where I already was in my thinking, and that I was watching it expand so for me personally, I think yes, I would have defined it in this manner, but I think the ship is the ship is getting bigger and it's all moving out to see now. I'm going to use a whole bunch of bad metaphors. It's great. No, no, I interrupted you but I just, I just was so intrigued by Karen's response I had to. Well, and I want to just make sure that everyone knows because you know I feel like the entire world, not just our sector is acronym soup so for those of you that are scratching your head going, what is CSR right that's corporate social responsibility. So, if we, if we because I'm sure I'll say it to CSR. If we, you know, say that again throughout the course of the conversation just keeping your head that's corporate social responsibility. I love that definition and, and I would agree with you I think Julia that's how I saw it going into the pandemic. And, and I would agree that it's like it's really just elevated to a whole new level of what that looks like. Like, I've seen so many companies become even more engaged with nonprofits is they see this as an opportunity to play a role in the solution, right of the community problem so let's talk now about you know this halo effect because I do we talk about you know halo effect when it comes to, you know, corporations or funders are kind of like, look who's on board don't you also want to be on board but let's, I want you Karen to talk to us about the warm glow of the halo effect what does that mean. So now I think we have to dig in a little deeper are you thinking that the warm glow of the halo effect that it's the warm glow on the private sector partner of the alliance or the warm glow that the nonprofit might get. I think it's a, I think it's a good question because I think it goes both ways. Yeah, right. And we don't, we don't address that because I think we undervalue ourselves on the nonprofit side. Yes, I agree. Yeah, right. And so when we think about when I think about the halo effect I also think about the language we use in terms of like we were talking about the word soup. If we if we take the word cause marketing away away and we make it a cause partnership, is it a cause alliance. You know, I'm such a geek about this stuff that that actually gives me a little lump in my throat because to me that really expands what what the relationship actually is, you know, it's not cause. It's not cause marketing, right. It's an alliance and when you have an alliance, then you have a halo effect that is gold it's a golden hour on both sides of the party right that's how I feel about it so to your point Julia. I think the social sector does itself a disservice when it thinks it's not bringing anything to the alliance that couldn't be more untrue. It is the very reason that your private sector partners want to partner with you. You bring community you bring the knowledge of what it is to be boots on the ground. There is nobody better than the social sector not even the public sector, who can deliver programs and services to the community in the way that it is because it's already there it understands it's yes it's data. Yes it's all the things but it's also human. You're already there. If I'm a private sector partner in this alliance. I am getting a crap ton of halo. I need sunscreen. I need sunscreen. I just made that up. Right. Is there sunscreen for halo effect. There should be. You know, I love what you said, because I think that one word partnership or alliance. It is magical, because it turns the sense of value. And it kind of forces us in the nonprofit sector to step up and to say yeah we do have value. And yeah we are making you look good. Yeah. And I love to like, you know, changing that language that you just did Karen like it gave me a similar lump in my throat thinking that it's moving from transactional to relationship through partnership. Yes. Yes. And so that would be another differentiator right as we move maybe the conversation from cause marketing or cause alliance which is, you know, more time based it's, you know, time sensitive, and you look at business development. It's not that the prior is not strategic, but there are more strategic opportunities to build that alliance in deeper ways with deeper roots, you know, goes back to what you were just saying so yeah. I love this conversation. And I've got to say Karen, you know, at this time of the year, we're looking at these relationships for Q4 and in this, this push at the end of the year and the holidays. This is such a great conversation for right now. Such a great conversation. You know, for me when I think about, you know, moving into that other lane of business development from the nonprofit side of the equation. I really do think it's important to steward your and cultivate just as you would with an individual individual donor steward cultivate and steward your corporate partners. Right. If somebody comes in because they're getting their feet wet and they really don't have a clear understanding of what the needs are on the nonprofit side of the equation that they are going to bring their resources to right. Everybody's bringing something to the table. Now they're engaged. They could continue doing another program the same way the next year, same length of time maybe a little longer maybe put a different sheen on it, you know, maybe they align themselves with a different focus area or service meaning in in your organization, all fair they're still family they're still they're still doing the good work. But what if what if that relationship expands and grows and you do bring greater levels of the time talent and yes the treasure, because that's what's required to keep everything moving forward so I think that they're in in a role of instance is I think people miss that opportunity to cultivate and steward their corporate partners into deeper roles into, you know, let's talk about board roles. Let's talk about volunteer leadership. You know, then we're talking about another nuance now we're talking about boundary spanning. I'm curious Karen, because I just helped an organization, you know, disseminate a donor survey and so it was sent to all supporters, all donors all constituents I use those three words, often very interchangeably. You know that the information that came back from the individuals was essentially we want to hear more client success stories, and the information coming back from companies was essentially saying, you do a great job with the information here. We don't want anything less and we also don't want anything more. So I'm curious because of my experience with this Karen, how you would suggest we engage with these corporate social responsibility leaders in in sharing the impact and continuing that stewardship and cultivation. What would you say in that arena. I guess I want to clarify the question. So, are they looking for, you know, social data and information they can include in their own social impact reports. Did I am I understanding that or This was the organization the nonprofit actually did the nonprofit or did the donor survey rather and so they we were soliciting from our stakeholders. So I'm curious, you know, with that information how you would suggest that any organization reach out to corporate social responsibility leaders and you know community members to say hey, how can we best form this alliance. So first thing, and I would say this of any relationship. You got to put your listening ears on. Yeah. Right bring your listening ears. I think that. And I'm sort of riffing here it's such a great question to think about. Um, way that's what we're here for riffle yeah you know I wonder. So you put your listening ears and you come with, you know you come with some ideas because that's what we do. Right. We have some ideas, let us tell you about the service line let us tell you about this focus area maybe you're unaware that we have changed the way that we work in this particular area. You know, I, as I'm saying this out loud even as we go along. I'm realizing that there are oftentimes when I will say to someone. I'm not sure you know, but we, right, but we have a thing over here that does this, and it serves that. It could be as simple as that because you know, acronym soup or whatever like we all have our lingo and it's like, we, why don't you know that of course you know that and, and Julie I'm thinking of one of our one of our very large shelters and our community, and they've really been, been known as you know, this is the place where you go to get a hot meal, you know and it's like they do so much more than that. I really think you know it's, it's on us to say, did you know we have this. Yeah, but I think you also have to be with with respect to the listeners, I think you have to maybe enter those conversations, knowing maybe that there's already a gap, and not like lying and wait, but sort of assuming that there's a gap in information, and that it's our job to remedy that so when you have the opening and you see somebody just sort of dug their heels in on a certain area that they're familiar with because you're in main brand mission in your community, you know, but to your point but do you because did you know this thing. And by the way maybe that thing is somewhat smaller actually even for your own organization and you're looking to make it grow and now you have found a potential partner to help develop that but that also goes back to what we were starting to touch on the boundary spanning. Right, why are we bringing corporate partners into relationship with us right it's not just for their private sector dollars. It's also for their acumen just as we are bringing our acumen to their community right to their service. The boundary spanning I know we talk about that when we talk at building board talk about building boards we talk about our volunteer leaders but those volunteer leaders also exist within our corporate partner alliances. I think that identifying what their strengths are, either from an organizational perspective or an individual executive partner in, you know, that you're working with bring that acumen to the table how can it help build that new service area that's smaller that they didn't know about or an existing one, but I don't know does that. Now I think that's very helpful and one of the things the three of us talked about in our green room chatter before we went lives was about how cause marketing, you know, it's, it's a moving target, it continues to evolve and change. I think that does the CSR the corporate social responsibility models of our corporations and our alliances, but I'm curious, you know, because we said it straddles cause marketing it straddles business development. Let's move into the business development side of this conversation. Do you believe Karen that cause marketing is in fact business development for our nonprofits. I think cause marketing is business development for the private sector. And I say that because of, I mean it's an opportunity for a nonprofit to link arms and all the ways we've talked about but I think if we're talking about is business is cause marketing business development for the social sector. No, it is intended. Primarily, as a driver for the private sector. In my opinion, you're on fire. I saw you. Yeah, my hair is on fire. And as I like to say, I don't have a lot of hair to lose. So this is a big moment. Yeah, you know what, I love that you called this out, because it even amplifies the nature of the notion of partnership and alliance. So I appreciate you saying this. Yeah, it's, it's not that it doesn't have value for the social sector, but you know, is it driving revenue for us, maybe, maybe yes, not even a maybe sure it is. But when we're talking about business development, we're really talking about capacity building we're talking about sustainability. Are we not. Yeah, I right. Right. And so I don't think that a single program of cause marketing is the answer for, especially a smaller organ. Well, let me take that back. It might be a really solid answer for a smaller organization. If you are a large, you know, NGO, or a brand name national organization, your, your real revenue is coming from much bigger alliances, much bigger sorts of plays. You also have grants, you have, you know, you have another opportunity, number of other opportunities and pathways to meet your annual goal. And by the way, happy end of fiscal year to most nonprofits who are ending today, because speaking of hair on fire, you can have hair on fire. How many hours do we have to go? I know, I know. It's that, it's that. But yeah, I think, yeah, without belaboring it too much, I do think that the revenue opportunities and, or just the general benefits around cause marketing as a specific phrase really lean in. You know, they, I think they favor, favor the private sector because for my money and my time and time is money. I'm not going to say no as a nonprofit leader. I'm not going to say no to partnering in that way because again then you also have the stewardship and cultivation opportunities. Once a program like that is successful and everybody's happy and you have the halo and the warm glow and nobody's hair is on fire. You know, you can move into more meaningful things, but I do think, again, not to belabor it too much. I think it's, it weighs more heavily on in favor of the private sector. Yeah, I agree. I agree. I think it's important to to recognize that I really do and, and I think if you can understand that, then it helps you and your development team and your C suite understand what resources you're going to put towards this. And how you're going to value it. Right. These relationships. The value question a curveball question so we mentioned CSR and literally that stands for corporate social responsibility. But how are small businesses playing a part in this cause marketing. Because to me, you know, I also see a lot of small businesses, family owned businesses that have a very large propensity to, you know, philanthropy and being part of their community and being civically engaged. So is it only for the big dogs Karen, or is it for like any company that that wishes to have a component of, you know, impact in the social sector. I think any company. Yeah. Anybody, any company that has any company that it's made a home in any community of any size, anywhere in the country. If you think about it, you've already been connected to your community in probably some philanthropic ways without putting the big philanthropy, you know, banner over it. I mean, I think it's rare that a, you know, a small privately owned family company doesn't have a connection in some way to some mission. It may be to a larger health related issue it may be you know, but more often than not, my experience is that those companies really tie directly back to their own community so you live in a small community. That should not stop you as a nonprofit from linking arms with your private sector friends. You're all living in the same place trying to elevate everybody's life trying to make things better for everyone. That's a to me that's not even a curveball that's a yes. It's a line drive. Yeah. Why are you not. You, all of this great has been marvelous I'm going to use that word because I heard you say that you loved it earlier. You that have also enjoyed having this conversation with Karen cooks I want to make sure that you know how to reach out to her Karen cooks calm. She's also very involved on LinkedIn so you can find her there as well. I just want to say thank you thank you for, you know, going back to school to get your degree in nonprofit management leadership and for dedicating your time, you know, to the sector and for sharing your valuable time and expertise with us today. Thank you. I loved every second. Call me back anytime. We will. I think we will. Everybody I'm Julia Patrick against CEO of the American nonprofit Academy have been joined today my partner in crime, Sharon Ransom, the nonprofit nerd herself. We want to make sure that we extend a tremendous amount of gratitude to all of our presenting sponsors who've been with us in this conversation today. Blumerang American nonprofit Academy, your part time controller nonprofit nerd fundraising Academy Academy, staffing boutique and nonprofit thought leader. This has just been a wonderful, wonderful conversation to have again Karen I've loved your comments. I think you spurned me on to understand that we need to spend more time elevating the value of these relationships from the nonprofit side. So thank you for doing that. It's really profound. It's really profound. Hey everybody as we are starting to wrap up a very busy week, a very busy year for so many of our nonprofits. Oh my gosh, please remember our mantra to stay well so you can do well.