 It's the second day of the five-day warning strike, called by organized labour, to protest against the mass sacking of workers by the Kaduna state government. The state was grounded yesterday as the strike began, but Gov. Nassu Erufei said the government would neither retreat nor concede to any thoughtless and corrupt political hack. The striking workers are set to go out on the streets again today. Let's talk to the vice-chairman of the Nigeria Labour Congress in Kaduna state, Mr Efrem Jonah. Good morning, thanks for joining us. Good morning, thank you. Yes, we also have with us a barrister, Francis Danlady Kozak. Good morning. Good morning, how are you? Fine, thank you. So, Mr Jonah, let's begin with you. Good morning. Yes. So, the NOC basically is protesting in Kaduna state over some workers that will disengage from service. But what we're hearing from the Kaduna state Gov. Nassu Erufei is that some of them failed competency tests, some of them didn't have the requirements, and he also mentioned that they had to be laid off or were right-sized because the payment of salaries of workers in Kaduna state was taking over 80% of the revenue in Kaduna. What do you think about these reasons? Are they justifiable? Well, there are two things brought up now. You are talking about people didn't have competency tests. I'm also talking about the wage bills of the Kaduna state government. These are two issues. But I know for once that all the issues that are being brought up now, they were just a little bit, excuse me. When Erufei came on board as a governor of Kaduna state, he had shown himself to be anti-level. And his presidents would tell you that even when he was in Abuja, you could see what he did. So it is not that the wage bill and it's not about... In fact, there was a time he even said that the salary is not what he came to do and that he can't be using the money to repay his salary. But the question we kept asking him is who generated this money that you are 15 on it. And it's all about the public education and it's all about tests. Somebody will go for 30 years, for 25 years and you are not bringing about competency, you are not bringing about tests, I can't understand. So these are all serious issues that are bringing up on board, but we remain resolute. And in fact, in most cases we are not even saying that he should not, but the rule of the law was come to play. There are conditions of engagement. You are engaging me, there are things you agree upon. You give me your conditions, I give you my conditions. And if at any time you feel you don't need my services, you follow the condition of service that we signed it at the beginning. Okay, I want to bring in Barrister Francis Dan Ladi-Cosa with the perspective where he says that the amount of money used for paying salaries every month is way more than 70%. Do you think that's a good enough reason to want to downsize the workforce in Cardona state and focus strictly on those people who are entirely beneficial to the state and to the state's economy? Well, thank you very much. First of all, as an employer, the ability to pay your employee is very paramount. Even in private sector, there are times when situations are difficult that workers are unfortunately left off. Not to talk about government and other issues. The ability to pay is very, very important. It's very paramount to every employee and employer. Now, if the government is saying that we cannot be able to pay, of course, do you expect them to keep keeping people without payment? That is an issue. And then the second issue we want to address is that yes, every employer has the right to engage and to disengage. There's no doubt about it. The law is very clear on those issues. You can engage and engage. Yes, you engage based on the condition of service. And everybody that has been engaged or disengaged and feels that it is unjust has the cost to challenge the disengagement. If it is illegal, if it is not well grounded, no. So the costs are there. That everybody who feels aggrieved can vindicate his grievances. Now, this third thing is old-fashioned. Old-fashioned, they say that you are punishing people who ordinarily are not involved in your crisis because of me. Look at the poor masses. Those who go about their daily... They have been punished for this. They are out of electricity. A lot of people depend on electricity for their business. They have no say in the circle of workers. And they are suffering. They went and closed and shut up hospitals where the poor goes to attend to pay their medical attention. They close those hospitals and the poor are lavishing in bans and longer. They have been punished. My crisis, my grievances have been affected on the poor masses. And I think that is an issue that nurses should look at. If you have any grievances, then deal with the person or the authorities that have the grievances. Look at people. So you don't agree with the NLC's approach? So what you're saying is that you don't agree with the approach of... Go ahead, please. Yes, it's out-fashioned. The NLC approach is out-fashioned. You can't just punish somebody who is not part of your dispute. That's the truth about it. And that is what the NLC is doing here. And today, of course, in Cardinal yesterday, a lot of workers went back to work in their offices. I'm telling you, they went to the offices and they just went to work. Some of them are on their decks now doing their work. The Executive Council of the State held yesterday successfully. And nobody stopped it. So it happened yesterday. So the ordinary people have been made to suffer unnecessarily. And I feel NLC should look at the situations of amnesia. Dialogue is very important in every dispute resolution. Dialogue is very important. Whether you like it or not, you stop it. Now, if you are saying that you have sucked thousands of dollars, you must have given the FIGO. Governments say nobody has agreed on the FIGO. NLC is... You are saying they have not been paid. Governments are saying they have been paid. Others are saying they have not been paid. So what is it? These issues can only be solved through dialogue. All right. All right, hold on, Mr. Barrister Francis. Mr. Iifrem Jonah, I want to bring you in here. Can you hear me? All right. So the Barrister here is saying that the method through which NLC is trying to get the government to do what they want is old-fashioned and that you can either seek recourse through the court of law or dialogue with the government. Are these options you might want to consider rather than protesting on the streets? Well, the Barrister is talking as a legal person. And would you see when we... He has mentioned a point that is very clear. The employer has the right to fire and to hire. No doubt about it. But that the condition at which you have said your engagement must be obeyed. And you are talking about going to court. Which court? How many... How many judgments have been passed in Kaduna State that have not been respected? And you are talking about court. Who will say court in Kaduna State? And when you talk that people are so... We have subjected people to hardship and so on. The people are already dying. People are dying because of the policies of the government. So it's not about suffering. People have suffered and they are still suffering. Okay. People that you say they live daily on the... They live on the daily wages or whatever transaction they make. The issue is this in Kaduna State. There is nowhere you can see people selling and buying along the road. You cannot see. They have destroyed all the business. The people that you sell. You didn't pay them. And the parts are there. It's not that we are forging. We are civil. And we know what we talk with parts of people. I'm not going to talk in any house. Mr. Jonah, if you are saying... Mr. Jonah. Mr. Jonah. Yes, I can hear you. Excuse me. If you are saying that you don't have faith in the judicial system in Kaduna State because that will yield no fruit. How about the second option the barrister suggested, dialogue, you know, speaking with the government, you know, to try to solve this, you know, amicably? No, let me tell you one thing. Erufai has been so arrogant. He doesn't sit with the union. He has never in... Since he came on board. This is his fifth year, I suppose, that he came on board. He has never... We have written him later. At the time he was elected. We sent him a congratulated message. He never responded. No later has been followed by this government. And at the time, if issues come up, is the head of service or just call people and just give them instruction and give them information. And everybody goes. And then when the union... When the union says no, we need to solve. They have never respected the union in any little way, Kaduna. And all of us, you know how the crowd is. Because this man we are dealing with is... He feels that he's on top of... Nobody knows anything like him. He feels the effort in every field. So he doesn't have anything he likes to do. And in Nigeria, the last option is to do what we are doing. That's the last option. Yesterday, the commissioner of police called us. He called us and we were together with him. And he showed he was not comfortable if we go on protest. We told him, well, the issue is that he wasn't going to organize government to sit down with labor and support. But I'm telling you, as I'm talking to you, nothing has been had from government. Only for them to be issuing trade and intimidation. And it's not fair. And that's why we are doing this. If there are people who can talk to everybody as the governor of Kaduna said, they should call him to order. This thing that we are doing, you know sometimes you must suffer before you enjoy. So we are appealing to even the citizens of Kaduna to be patient with us. But at the end of this, they are going to get whatever they are entitled to. Alright, I want to bring back, so Francis, with regards to your point on going to court. Thank you very much. Yeah, I want you to speak once again on the point you made with regards to going to court instead of going on strike. Do you think that maybe the Jusun workers also shouldn't be on strike and they should have approached the court instead? The point I'm making is if there is any dispute between the courts or agencies, NLC, government, anybody, everybody has the course to law. And what do the courts do to vindicate his crisis there? Look, it's unfortunate that somebody will tell me that he does not respect the courts, the judiciary. The judiciary is the last hope of the ordinary man. If pronouncements are made in the judiciary, they become enforceable. There are processes of enforcing decisions of court. And therefore, if NLC has caught and gotten a judgment, the government is bound to obey. And if the government refused to obey, there are machinery for enforcement of judgment that can be explored. So it's no excuse for you to say that the judiciary is strong and is vibrant. I am a legal practitioner. I practice law. And I know that the judiciary is vibrant. And not just men. I know judgment for government. And so forth. I cannot tell you that the judiciary is not vibrant. The judiciary is very, very vibrant. Secondly, you cannot tell me that the current state government does not dialogue. Just yesterday, the TUC dialogue with the government. The way in the dialogue with the head of service. The head of service. Prior to the strike. Yeah. Mr. Dan Ladi. Mr. Dan Ladi, prior to the events of yesterday, was there any dialogue? Was there any conversation that was had between the TUC organized labor and the Cardinal State government? Didn't it build up to yesterday's events? I don't know. I don't know. The reason that there is dialogue is because of the protests. Yeah, what I'm asking is, isn't it possible that the reason there is dialogue is because of the events of yesterday and the protests already taking place? No. Certainly not. Because I know as a fact that once you go to government, the relevant agencies and tell them that look, I want to discuss this issue. No, discuss. The head of service is the chief of the Cardinal State. And he's the chief of the government. So he has a problem as the guys' workers. She's the first one of course. You go and meet her and you dialogue with her and discuss with her. Whatever you agree with her, she will take it up with the government. And the issues will resolve. Let me tell you this issue of SAC or NOSAC. Whether we like it or not, the sacking of workers as unfortunate as it is, it is desirable. Whether you like it or not, that's the truth about it. There are people who are just reaping government without ranging any service to government. That's the truth about it. And so if those people are laid off, I don't think there's any problem. I need to feel at grief. They should go to court. If you say you have not been paid, government said we have paid. NOSAC said we have not been paid. So who is telling likes? And so let us know. Who is telling likes? Let's find out. You have been paid or not paid. I am happy you said that. I know you saw this problem. I know you saw this problem. No. Thanks for your thoughts. I am happy you said what you said because I was about to ask about the specifics of this case. What do you say I say 18,000 people were disengaged, 7,000 people were disengaged. I spoke with an NULGE member yesterday. I was having different figures. So the figures here is not cohesive. Ms. Sey, from Jonah, could you give me a verifiable amount of workers in Kajuna State that have been disengaged from service, according to you, obiturally? For the time we are going, the LACARs were still flowing of disengaging staff and from the court termination, from the call retirement, from the call dismissal, all those type of funny languages from the LACARs. And at the last count, the NULGE, NULGE was about 2,000 of NULGE staff were disengaged. He went to these medical health workers, they disengaged about 4,000. Then he went to NULGE. NULGE was also disengaged about 750. So in all these last episodes we were talking about, they have disengaged about 7,500 workers. Is there a possibility because Boris of France- Somebody to tell me that I will find will listen. Let me side an instance with the head of service that he mentioned. Before you go on, if from Jonah, kindly hold him, before you go on, I will let you finish. But I want you to add the possibilities of ghost workers in these numbers that you've just mentioned. Boris of France had mentioned that there's a lot of ghost workers in Cardenas state that also need to be taken out of the wage bill. So do you think that there is a possibility that that is also part of the numbers that you've just mentioned as you go on? I don't know where you got this information. I don't know where you are getting this information. There are ghost workers. Do they have evidences that there are ghost workers in Cardenas in civil service? If we don't have it, well, I don't have it. So yeah, it's in a better position to tell us how it came about, the ghost workers talking about. But as far as we know, these are human beings that can be counted. You will count them the number and they are physical, they are visible, that it seems that they are not visible. So for him to say that there are ghost workers in Cardenas, why would he not partner with labor? We have done work for several governors in Cardenas here. We have collaborated with governors. In Cardenas here, we collaborated with the military governor. We collaborated with them as we brought out issues that had the government. If there are immigrants like that, why not engage labor? All right. On the 25% he deducted from workers the other time. I want to cite one instance so that you will know what I'm talking about. He directed that 25% of the salary to be cut from the salary without consultation. And when he destroyed that level was talking to the head of Southern Coast and say, what did you do to see our situation is like this? And after we agreed that let it be like two or five percent so that the people can still go home with something. Can still go home with something. As I'm telling you now, at that meeting the head of Southern Coast said that it has already been determined. It is something that has been decided by the council. So there was nothing we could do just to settle. You are giving us information. You are giving us information. So that has been the character and the policies and the operation of the governor in Cardenas state. So because I don't know whether the barricade is living in Cardenas or not. I don't know. He should attest to the fact that this governor has no listening ears. He doesn't have listening ears. And the people have talked to him but we can see how stubborn he is. And we are not doing it to hurt anybody. What we are doing is the legal thing we are doing. If we protest, the protest is allowed by law we have the right to protest. Okay, so Mr. Jonah, I just wanted to get... I want to say something to the governor. Yes, many weeks ago. Yes, you did mention that Mr. Jonah. I want to ask you, you are striking now for the next five days to want the government, right? So what would you want the government to do to make the workers leave the streets and go back to work? What would be the solution to that? All we need is that let everyone respond to Southern Coast. The people that have been sent in court they should be called back and all the people can imagine that somebody who level 126, what he did was that he casualized them. Somebody was working for 20 years, 25 years to casualize them that he doesn't have a degree, a cleaner in the hospital or a person that is working in the hospital that he doesn't have to know anything. I don't need to go to school to learn how to sweep. I don't need to go to school to learn how to wash the best spray. I don't need that. So for him to have casualized them from level one to six is that here? And I'm telling you, every fight has in the local government now he has reversed the minimum wage of 30,000 to 18,000. That was what they were paid last month. That was the month they were paid last month. And I can't imagine that somebody will not trust, this is a document that will sign it to law. Minimum wage deal is a constitutional provision that look, this is the base mask for what they're going to pay people. But before we get back to you. And he came up to say, if you're out to 50 years, go. And that was, I wasn't asking him, is he not more than 50 years? Is he not a civil servant? Why would he not take the, why would he not take the ban? Go out. All right, before we go back to Barriser Francis, hold on from Jonah. He doesn't follow the rule of law. Yeah, well, before we go back to Barriser Francis, Barriser Francis, I would like you to speak on the response of the Kaduna State government. And if that also, you know, it may not be, you know, a good enough response, you know, considering the fact that Ephraim Jonah says that he's not a listening governor. And his response is said that the strike is sabotage and it is meant to sabotage economy and movement of Kaduna State. And also as politicized it a little bit. But before that, Ephraim Jonah, do you have the support of the Kaduna State workers? At your protest yesterday, did you have hundreds or maybe even thousands of workers out in the streets in solidarity with your cause? Well, you see, when we say we don't have support, I don't understand. I'm asking, the level of support you have. They are workers in the state. They are workers in the state. And I don't know why he's saying that people didn't turn up, people were in their offices. I don't know why he got those information. But let me quickly say this, that because of the intimidation and threat, some people couldn't even come out because they know the kind of person we are dealing with. You, because in fact, at a point we were suspecting, maybe they were going to organize a talk to come and interrupt our process. But on board, I don't know whether God led in his heart not to try that. Because if you try that, it will have been another story but we will be talking about today. Okay. Now let's go back to Barista Francis now. The question that I asked, the response of the Katana State government, Katana State governor, he has described this as a sabotage. You know, and you know, there's also political intonations to it. How do you respond? Well, what does that say to you? And does that show him as a listening governor? Thank you very much, sir. First of all, let me make it clear. That NLC has no definite figure about whose appointment have been terminated or not. I challenge them to be specific as to the number of citizens that have been terminated. I'm saying that because they have just exagerated the figure out of context. Secondly, the fact that there are those workers in Kodonasi is a fact known to every person in Kodonasi. There are schools that don't exist. That's just a propagated study of base salaries. He knows about that. So those are ghost workers that don't exist in Kodonasi. We know that. And every fire and the government try to put them out and they are making noise because most of the beneficiary of those ghost workers are those that are making the noise straight. The leaders of the NLC and other people like that. Secondly, let me tell you, he said people above 50 years have been sad. It's not true. That's a strong statement. I know as a fact that there are people who are above 50 years that are working in the Kodonasi civil service. Right, so Francis, I don't want us to quickly skip over. So it is not true. I just want to be a propaganda. Yeah, I don't want us to quickly. I'm coming, sir. Can we hold on? You finish, but I don't want us to skip over a statement that you just made, that the NLC leaders are beneficiaries of the ghost workers in Kodonasi. And exagerating figures. Yeah, and exagerating figures. That's a strong allegation there, sir. Yeah, and it's true. They are exagerating figures. They actually don't have any definitive figure. I can lend them to Kodons in specific terms of the exact number of workers and the fact. But you've also said that they are benefiting from the ghost workers. I can lend them to Kodons. And second, let me tell you, a lot of people are benefiting. The ghost, if there's a ghost worker, somebody is benefiting from it. And the NLC president, like you said, and also the leaders of the state. Let's go back to the issue. Pardon? Then you've said that the NLC leadership in Kodona state are part of the beneficiaries of the ghost workers. Let me tell you, sir. The point I'm making is that there are ghost workers. There are ghost workers. And there are still ghost workers today. Somebody somewhere in leadership, either senior government officials and some leaders of the union are part of it. They could look. Okay. They're part of it, I think, from it. Mr. Jonah. That's the truth. Mr. Jonah, can you hear me? I will talk about the response of the class of men. When I said the, listen, let me finish this point. Let me just make this point. Go ahead. So let me just make this point. Now, I make good to say that as of yesterday, I have lived in Kodona, as of yesterday, many civil servants went to work. Those who were on the streets are not civil servants. They're not civil servants. Many civil servants went to work because later on, they would unlock all the offices and check the offices. So people are really interested in working because they know that the approach to this problem is not strike. It's not strike. It's not protest. The approach to this problem, as I said, there are either two ways. You either dialogue and find a solution to it or you go and challenge. Okay. That's the only way. We hear you, Barrister. Strike is as it's old fashioned. Yes, we hear you Barrister. Mr. Ephraim Jena. Mr. Ephraim, can you hear me? Not very clear. Yes. If you can hear me, we know that back in 2016, there was a verification exercise in Kodona State that uncovered over 16,000 ghost workers in Kodona State. And yet Barrister Francis Dala-Dikosa is repeating that there are ghost workers in Kodona State, that the NLC has no definite figure after the amount of people who have been allegedly sacked by the government and that the NLC members are beneficiaries of the ghost worker situation in Kodona State. Can you kind of respond to that? I think the only area I have, whether the NLC are beneficiary to the ghost worker and he claimed the error in Kodona. Yes, go ahead please. The audio is not okay. The audio is not okay. But if you can hear me, if you can hear me, you see, I want to ask the Barrister who is the linear testing. To withdraw, to withdraw some of the statements he made now. Because this statement, until and on left, is able to prove that a labor is colluding with ghost workers in the state. And for somebody to come and say that whether somebody is being instigated by external forces, it's not true. It's not true. What is happening in Kodona is so painful. It's something that you can touch, you can feel. So for somebody who, at my age now, somebody will be pushing me up and down. At the age of one, but somebody will be pushing me up and down that one, do this, don't do this, don't do this, don't do this. It's not unfortunate the Barrister is saying what he's saying because I take exception to what he's saying. Whether we are colluding, colluding with who? Colluding with the ghost worker? One who is the ghost worker? Somebody that you can't see and you call him a ghost, you say you are colluding with ghost workers, what does that mean? So I take exception to that. And until he's able to give a proof, I will not accept that. Okay, well, we have to wrap it up. I don't know if we would have the virus that would draw that statement or, you know, do you stand by your statement? Barrister Francis? Hello? Hello? Yes, go ahead. Would you, are you standing by your statement? Barrister Francis, Dan Ladi? Well, I stand by my statement that there are ghost workers, there are ghost workers. And the ghost workers were among those who were chased out of the coffin. And there still exists some ghost workers. And I stand by my statement that some people somewhere are benefiting from those because the sliders that have been paid to those pockets. And so on and so forth. I stand by my statement. I don't have any withdrawals, that's the truth about it. And he's talking about some of it. We're out of town. We're referring to your statement. You call, you call, Barrister Francis, we're referring to your statement. Aleppo, not part of the Karnasi civil servants. Yes, we're referring to your statement. We're referring to your statement. Can you hold on? Can you hold on? Barrister Francis, would you hold on? That's the Karnasi civil service. I don't know. Yes. I don't know what in Karnasi government. So are you saying that they are, are you standing by your statement that they are beneficiaries? The civil service. Are you saying that they are beneficiaries of the ghost workers in Karnasi state? That's the question. Are you standing by that statement? That the NRC... My question is very clear. My question is very clear. I made the point very clear. Pointedly, that there are ghost workers and that there are people who are beneficiaries of the ghost workers and that people who are in the government, they are there. The leadership of NRC or whoever in Karnasi state are part of the civil service of Karnasi state. I don't know the civil servants. I don't know the positions of the authority in Karnasi. They are workers. Yeah, that's what we're talking about. So they are beneficiaries from them. Barisa Francis, thank you very much. And because people have been sad, they have lost this illegal means of omission. They are making noise all over the place. They are pulling the making of that. I made that point clear. Dan Ladi. Dan, look. Thank you very much. Barisa Francis, Dan Ladi Kosa, for your time this morning. And also Ephraim Jonah, Deputy Chairman of NRC Karnasi. Thank you very much for speaking with us on this. Thank you both. Yeah, we hope to follow up with you both regarding the outcome of this whole strike. What happens after five days if the government doesn't bulge? Does the NRC move as well? We'll be following all the developments here on the breakfast in Plastiv Africa. So we'll take a break here and return to discuss another burning issue in Nigeria and that's electricity and our power deficit.