 Welcome to this video brought to you from the College of Asia and the Pacific at the Australian National University in Canberra. My name is Nicholas Farrelly and I'm a research fellow here in the college. My research is focused on politics in Southeast Asia and for that reason I'm particularly pleased to introduce a guest of our university, Mr Rafizi Ramli who is the Vice President and Secretary General of Malaysia's main opposition party, the Party Ki Adalan Rakyat, the People's Justice Party. Rafizi is here in Canberra doing a bit of a tour of Australia trying to get to grips with Australian impressions of Malaysian society and politics. It's a real pleasure to welcome you here today. I meet you. Thanks a lot for having me here. So let's just start with the very basic things. What is it that you're doing in Australia? It's a common practice for our party to especially concentrate on Australia and the UK because we have a large population of Malaysian students and Malaysian diaspora in both countries. We come here every six months, one year to just bring the latest updates, economic updates and more so now because there is a series of crackdowns on activists and politicians and the trial of our opposition leader is about to commence in a week. These are the kind of developments that would have a big impact on Malaysian politics and economy in the next two or three years. So Malaysian diaspora overseas, as more so in Australia, are usually very engaged in what's happening. So it's a normal. And we take opportunity to also meet our counterparts from MPs, we're also meeting the Minister for Foreign Affairs, at least to bring the updates from our perspective to the politicians in Australia as well. So speaking of your party leader, Anwai Ibrahim, obviously a very prominent figure, I suggest almost a household name in many parts of the world and certainly in recent Malaysian political history, he's been something of a towering giant, but not without controversy. It's obviously a pretty sensitive moment in the further evolution of his political prospects. What do you think is going to happen next? Of course you have to be hopeful, I mean being an opposition party that was born out of a personal tragedy that happened on him, we could only survive by remaining positive. So we are hopeful that his so-called legal problem orchestrated by the government will end very soon. Yet at the same time, I think we are very realistic that he will remain a galvanizing figure against the ruling party and so long as he is actively engaged with the public, that can only mean it's a matter of time that the ruling party is going to reduce in the next one or two general elections. So I think we have to be realistic as well that there is a high possibility that he may be sent to the prison yet again. I think this is going to be his third time being sent to prison throughout his very long political career and of course things are a bit jittery and uncertain in Malaysia because if he were to be sent to prison again, it will be another yet game changer in Malaysian politics. So it's a difficult situation for us. Is that something that you would worry about getting sent to prison? Is that an occupational hazard of being an opposition politician in Malaysia? I think it's becoming a sort of a badge of honor. I have three criminal charges against me. What are they? I think I'm only asking. I have one charge for sort of breaking banking secrecy because we expose a scandal involving a government minister. The family of the ministers secured a grant of 250 million supposedly to develop the biggest cattle farming in the country but four years later there were no cows, no farming. They were only very expensive condos all over the world. So the ministers resigned. The family is facing a breach of criminal breach of trust charges and I'm being charged as well for supposedly violating banking secrecy in the process of exposing them. I'm also facing a trial for organizing peaceful rallies and also the latest one is I was charged for supposedly infuriating the members of the ruling party because that was considered as a threat to public peace. There was a heightening race incidence in early of the year because a few of the far right groups were threatening for continuous demonstration in front of churches. Malaysia has had this difficulty about Islamic and non-Muslim relationship especially over the use of certain words. So things got a bit tricky early of the year. There were groups which threatened to continuously intimidate by demonstrating in front of churches. I said a few words and that was considered as seditious and I'm also facing a charge. So I think if you are an opposition member it's a matter of time before you have to take some rest behind bars. And a lot of us are a lot younger than I think we rather do it when we are in the 30s and early 40s rather than going through what Anwar went through which is now approaching 70s and yet facing another prospect of five, six years in prison. So you could say it has become some sort of occupational hazard. Intriguing I must say and in that context you've suggested that being youthful when you yourself are only still in your 30s is something of an advantage and I know in some of my previous interactions with senior figures in your political party I've been struck by the fact that they do tend to be quite young and fitting here of Neural Izza of course but also Nick Nazmi. Why is it that your party has this vanguard of youthful hard charging ideals behind it? What explains that? I think it's more so with our party it's not necessarily the case with all the parties in Malaysia in fact I think it's our uniqueness and it was a historical accident so to speak because Anwar was set in 1998 and a lot of us were students back then I was in my early 20s and he was practically abandoned by the establishment the usual groups who you would expect to took up the challenge were not there. So at the end of the day it was actually the young student leaders the youth movement who took up the call for reform in 1998 by Anwar Ibrahim and eventually this various groupings the young groupings we joined the party when he was set up in 1999 in our early 20s I was 22 when I first appointed to a position of leadership in the party so although we may be like 35 I'm 37 we have been with some kind of leadership responsibility in the party for the last 16 years and the average age of the national leadership of our party is mid 30s so it's more because of historical background rather than and I would consider ourselves a lot of us are basically reluctant politicians we were activists we took up the call for reforms and because of the harsh treatment of the ruling government some of us went to jail and suddenly it became a personal thing and it's no longer like your normal politics we see as a struggle a generational struggle with Anwar as a figurehead and my party is full of young people and the average age of leadership is getting younger and younger which is a good thing because the electorates by and far are getting younger so what initially began as a weakness for us because we were not really taken seriously in the first few years because we were very young by now I think we were seen to be more representative and the kind of policies that we bring strikes more resonance with the younger public and that's a problem that older parties like the ruling government is going through so I think after 16 years whatever is your age you kind of get comfortable with the position. I can understand that Rafizi so you've described yourself as a reluctant politician and from a party of many reluctant politicians turning your attention to the future and the challenges that Malaysia faces what would you judge right now the top couple of issues what are the big problems that you think the country needs to tackle head on. I was asked the same question yesterday by an academic also in Adelaide. Frankly speaking I think it's very difficult to begin to articulate because there's so many things that has to be fixed you know but I think what will have the most impact on normal average Malaysians is we are fast losing our economic competitiveness. In the past 30 years there's always this narrative that it is okay to let go some of the democratic space it is okay to be under an authoritarian regime so long as we have a prosperous economy and people can go by that no longer will be the case in the next I think 10 or 15 years because we are stuck with with with the low cost low technology low value economy and we can no longer compete with our neighbors or other competitors of course that has a lot to do with the kind of government we have because we have an authoritarian government which does not promote difference of opinion and that kind of restrict creativity we have to conform to one type of thinking and that goes at all levels of society and institutions and worse it is symptomatic of the education system that we have so when you have the kind of education system that tries to impose a thinking certainly it is it does not vote well for the kind of human capital and manpower that we need to grow a much more competitive and open economy so whereas when we started 16 years ago 20 years back this whole thing about democratic space is an alien discourse in Malaysia is gathering space you know it's people are beginning to relate why it is important because the economic crunch is coming so the greatest challenge is I think for for Malaysia to continue to be a prosperous country we have to fix so many things because otherwise we'll be left behind and once our economy begins to slide further and further the disparity will lead to a lot of unrest and in a tricky society like Malaysia where it's multi-racial multi-religious and the disparity is already white as it is now it is going to be very challenging unless reforms economic reforms political reforms social reforms take place now and that's the problem because it seems that everything has to be fixed and everything is urgent so you know I do not envy anyone who has to do that job whether you are in my party or in government so and and and for the young younger population the greatest struggle now is with cause of living because the wages have not caught up with the rise of cost the cost has been growing increasing at a much faster rate than the wages and you could see any society which were going through this there will be a time when when I wouldn't say it's explode but it will lead to some changes in the future speaking of those potential changes of course in the 2013 general election your party performed quite strongly picked up seats around the country but fell still far short of forming a new government would you suggest that at the next general election there's a serious prospect of the opposition forces taking power once and for all yeah I think it remains neck and neck in fact and I think what has been established in the last six years is that the government's ability to break opposition into pieces can no longer happen in the future the ruling government survived for six decades is because at any point the disparate opposition tries to form a collision within a matter of one term you know they do divide and rule and it's very difficult for for separate and ideologically different political parties to form a political front to challenge the government there has not been the case in 2008 when we meet historic gains people thought that is a coincidence is a freak of nature that can only last for a few years but the the fact that we continue to deny two steps and in fact for the first time one popular votes I think that is representative of the shift of Malaysian society that it is the wish of the people that there is a strong two party system and when when you have a ruling government which is not used to engaging the public or being accountable to the public and suddenly they have to live with a very strong opposition sometimes a lot more articulate than they are and with the advent of technology of social media with with the the monopoly of information is no longer in the hands of the government it remains a neck and neck competition the contestation between ruling government and our collision is still there although I would say that there are a lot of structural obstacles that we have to face it's not so much about facing an opponent political opponent that you have in Australia we have to face the bureaucracy we have to face an unfair system we have to face a very biased election commission we have to face election rules that are all drawn to make sure that we lose heavily so the the the bigger challenge is actually not convincing the public that we can do a better job than the ruling government the bigger challenge now is that before we are allowed to take power we have to dismantle all these structural systems that were put in place over the years to favor the incumbent so while I'm very optimistic and you know that I think we are doing much better than the government I also have to be practical that unless we can dismantle those structural advantages that they have I wouldn't say that it may happen in the next general election but I think a space of 10 years I think it's something that is very doable for us to get rid of this government what happens if you're not successful what happens if you can't dismantle those various elements of the state apparatus and what happens if let's say in 10 years time the secretary general of your party is is looking at yet another general election yeah well what would be the plan of attack there you strike me as as the kind of fellow who's looking very much to the to the long term well over the horizon imagining what the future for Malaysia can be many many many years from now what happens if these efforts inside the election electoral system never pay dividends I think we have the advantage in terms of age we do have more time than our opponents because they're very young you know our political chef life is much longer than theirs so in that sense that's why I think we are we have a longer prospect of political planning compared to them but at the same time although it's very difficult when you have to operate in in a system with advantages built for for your opponent we have also proven that we have managed to push pile up the pressure that time and time again the ruling government has to actually give concessions the best example was that for over 50 years the opposition was reduced to insignificance because of the existence of particularly one very draconian law the internal securities act which allowed for detention without trial in the past in the 70s and 80s they were political leaders who were imprisoned without trial for seven years ten years and they would be at the mercy of of the government it was repeal in 2011 likewise I think the use of indelible ink although it was a big fiasco because it was not indelible to begin with but we've been campaigning for the use of indelible ink for a good 10 15 years in spite of the reluctance finally they actually had to compromise and give concessions and now we do have indelible ink so our experience so far is that if you pile pressure consistently and if you can always demonstrate that the public sentiment is with you as much as author it you know as much as they like to maintain the current system any incumbent political party would have to take it at least you know bit by bit and that's why I think our political planning is very long-term in nature because dismantling this will take some time you know every now and then because of the outpouring of anger or public sentiment they have to give concessions to some of our demands and I'm quite hopeful and optimistic if we continue with the pace that we are now at least three or four of those key concessions that we need especially electoral reforms especially press freedom free speech we would be able to effect changes monumental changes in those areas perhaps in 10 years and once I think we do that I do not see how the current government can stay in power anymore well refugee Romney it's been a great pleasure to speak to you the note on which you have left us is one of perseverance and persistence and I think these are the values that all great universities also hold so thank you very much for taking your time to visit us here at the Australian National University and with that I will end this interview with Rafizi Ramly the vice president and secretary general of the party Kiadalan Rakyat in Malaysia he's been visiting Australia trying to give the Malaysian community in this country and any other interested members of the public a better impression of how he sees Malaysian society at this point in its political development thank you very much for joining us for this interview my name is Nicholas Farrelly best wishes to all