 This is Graham Atwell for Lynxup Project. Do you think learning 2.0 does it support inclusive lifelong learning? I think it's interesting that when we started this interview you started saying e-learning 2.0 because of course really we should be talking about learning 2.0 not e-learning 2.0 and of course the 2.0 we taken from a computer analogy of the move from the web 1.0 which was a push media to web 2.0 which was a media where people could contribute themselves, could publish themselves, could express themselves and we're active part informing the web rather than just consuming. So if we're talking about something which could be learning 2.0 I guess we'd be talking away from the pedagogic approach where we mean that we're basically we're filling kids heads with information to a pedagogic approach where kids themselves are exploring ideas, exploring knowledge and critically sharing knowledge between each other, a co-teaching breaking down the divide, who is the teacher, who is the learner, moving away from experts to co-created or what Dave Cormier has called reasonmatic knowledge and of course that does support inclusion not in bringing a new form of educational institutions which allow people to come in but put in full the idea that you can learn outside institutions that learning is based within society or what many years ago now even it's called de-schooling society and by de-schooling society he didn't mean we didn't need learning he meant we need more learning and that learning is through society so in that way yes. We are running a lot of experiments also in this project but it's all around Europe and a big question also related to learning 2.0 is whether isolated experiments can be mainstreamed especially in Europe? I think it's a difficult question isn't it? We've had a lot of experience of projects which haven't been mainstreamed especially funding projects which fail on the end of the project funding that's the first issue and we've got a whole series of excellent practices and I don't know if I call them experiments but I'd call them islands of innovative and exemplary practice within education which has failed to be mainstreamed now this isn't a simple answer it's not that we can find a new algorithm or find a single measure which allows that exemplary practice to become part of the mainstream I mean I'd see it as a more organic form of how we exchange knowledge how we exchange practices and it raises a whole lot of political issues one thing is to say if we can just get a portal of innovative practice together and then the policymakers will go there and they find it and they impose that top down on all their education no that's not going to work we need more ways of organic exchange and understandings of practice one of the best examples I've actually seen of that happening was a UK JISC funded project and I can't remember the name of it but all they did is they took people from one institution to look at practice in the classroom in the teaching and learning practice in another institution and the very last thing I say on it I still think some of the best practice in inclusive education in innovative education I've seen is in primary schools and I love a really rich learning environment in primary schools using group learning using all kinds of tactile resources which seem to be careless and get lying around one thing I'd love to do is to bring teachers together from different sectors and to look at their practices and consider what the difference is on what they can do to start sharing between practice so I think it's a ground up movement that we need if that mainstreaming is going to take place. Well the last question is actually related to this one actually really fills the gap between your answer and my question is do you think learning 2.0 is or can fundamentally change educational landscapes? Let's say first of all learning 2.0 is like everything a construct of course it is it's not a precise thing but if you're talking about the changing ways in which people are using primarily using technologies but changing ways in people are learning using all kinds of different resources if you're talking about the way in which people are contacting each other learning from each other sharing what they've learned putting up videos hacking and I think the movement towards hacking is a brilliant word the way kids are learning from hacking into systems it's not a matter of can it change it is already changing and the task for education is to consider what education systems what institutions are going to do in response to the way young people are not just young people or already learning already using technologies for learning in the real world so it's not a question if it's going to change it's what are you going to do about the way it is changing