 Friends, may I have your ofmexam kite? There's a technical question first There there are people here who make Documentary on on Diem and they will take footage of this event Is there any person here who does not want to be filmed during this event? Please raise your hand now Okay, great So dear friends and comrades on behalf of the democracy in Europe movement I'd like to welcome you to our event at the main campus of Hamburg University We're just a stone's throw of the Congress Center Where the 20 economically most powerful heads of states are meeting in these days We all know this self-proclaimed Club of the Great has no democratic Critic mandate. We know it is an informal and exclusive gathering aiming at shaping international politics as a whole We know that unlike any other the so-called great 20 stand for austerity social inequality war and ecological destruction We all know how deeply intertwined this form of exclusive governance is with the crises of global Capitalism still the G20 claimed to represent 80 percent of this planet's population So why is it then that they have to shield themselves so rigorously from the public in the way? We are witnessing it right now in Hamburg these days. I Am talking as a citizen now born and raised in the free and hands-eadic city of Hamburg And I'd like to quote the preamble of this city's Constitution It says the free and hands-eadic city of Hamburg wants to mediate between all the words parts And people in the spirit of peace The senator of the interior and I won't even mention his name because I'm done with him The senator of the interior promised us a festival of democracy Let me put it briefly city authorities systematically criminalized just protests for months they systematically tried to create an atmosphere of fear Trying to prevent people from joining our just protests They suspended the right of assembly throughout the whole city center There are predator drones circling in the sky along with military helicopters 20,000 police women and men are in the streets repressing protest camps and protesters and the protest camps are authorized by the German constitutional court Robots are deployed by the US secret services crawling through sewers and subway tunnels doing. What exactly? Well, we all don't know since the US won't give us any information about them Hamburg right now is transformed into an Orwellian dystopia of complete surveillance Enforced by pellet a paramilitary means it is a democracy free zone And I ask you the senators of Hamburg I tell you these moves are a travesty against the democratic identity of our city And they are a blow to the standing of European democracy as a whole and its perception across the world And I ask you do you consider this a festival of democracy? Do you consider this the spirit of peace you poor poor souls and Allow me to be a bit cynical when I congratulate our mayor, and I won't either mention his name Congratulations dear mayor of Hamburg used to sustainably destroyed the smoldering Remainters of what used to be social democratic politics in this city congratulations Now let us zoom out of Hamburg a bit to link it to the bigger picture Because the global is not a force that is that is external to the local right rather the global develops through the local by rearranging various localities and their institutions So what we witness in these days in Hamburg is the concrete materialization of what it takes Worldwide to legitimize and stabilize a failed global capitalism a brutal and cannibalistic world order But no matter what anti-democratic means global elites Enforced and will enforce in the years to come. I have two words to say to them watch us Watch us taking our protest to the streets no matter what Watch us taking the green spaces of this city to get the sleep we need Watch us gathering here in the middle of the democracy free zone that the senate so eagerly created Watch us coming together from all parts of the world in the spirit of peace Actually fulfilling the preamble That I just quoted and watch us disobeying your anti-democratic policies. Watch us Tonight we the democracy in europe movement want to talk with you about ways and possibilities Of resistance in the age of surveillance capitalism We want to discuss our concept of constructive disobedience But first allow me to say a few words about who we are The democracy in europe movement was founded in february last year as a result of the experience of austerity politics in greece What became clear latest with the referendum of on fifth july 2015 Was that there is no democracy at eu level The sovereign people of greece declared their rejection of the eu's austerity policies Nonetheless, it was made effective with tremendous human cost until today The democracy in europe movement will not accept that We believe that no european people can be free if other people are repressed We do not believe We do not believe that the european crises can be solved by returning to our national states And so we will not stop struggling until we have created a european social state by bringing into effect A real european constitution that renders all current treaties obsolete We will not surrender Because collectively we planted our grass roots last year And together we will make flourish the seeds of true democracy in europe until 2025 And united we will bring home the fruits of our efforts And of course The road ahead us is hard Because as in europe societies worldwide are in the chokehold of neoliberal technocrats These free market fundamentalists claim that the invisible hand of the market is the only historical force in this world But let us not fool ourselves There is history floating amongst the brave students of santiago de chile There is history floating amongst the brave students of hong kong There is history manifesting in the squares of cai roe and in the markets of aleppo There is history spreading from the streets of ethans the streets of orso and the streets of paris There's history erupting in rojava There's history in the words of the little girl who i heard this morning in the train telling her father look daddy There are no streets. There are no people in the streets, but just police And from all parts of the world history is streaming to hamburg in these days Global civil society has gathered in the city and is watching from afar And all this is happening while the g20 are as divided as never before Free market fundamentalism is turning against itself in these times and we must use this opportunity To give the spirit of history a political body body of flesh And blood we must form now the the progressive international that europe and the whole world so desperately needs friends friends Storm clouds are gathering on the horizons of change But they carry a slight breeze of hope And from hamburg We shall Take the winds the fresh winds that are blowing in this world tonight and in these times And we progressives shall set sails from hamburg to Conquer the world with our vision for utopia And before i give word to srejko horvat in a second I will have to give thanks to the student committee of hamburg who made all of this possible. Thank you comrades I will have to give thanks to the student committee of the university of applied sciences in hamburg Supplying us with the financial means of all of this I will have to give thanks to the local group the hamburg dsc Our dm25ers in this city. Thank you so much for all the struggle of the last last days and weeks I will have to give thanks to all my comrades across europe for making this possible This is a pan european event people from all over this continent created this And now I won't bother you any longer. I will give word to srejko horvat. Please welcome srejko horvat Hello and good evening. Uh, unlike sure and I didn't prepare any speech tonight Well, uh, it's been busy days. I talked too much already And I talked too much and I will talk too much this evening as well So I didn't prepare anything Let me first say that if there is one person in this room to whom we can thank that we are here today Well, it's not the g20, but it is precisely sure and so I'm thanking sure and for organizing this And this is precisely the best example how dm25 functions It is self-organization I'm really glad that it functions like that because then other people like yanis who is not with us today can be on creed Well, I hope you will also go there I will give just a few words about The relevance and the reason to organize this event Precisely on the day when violence is happening in all corners of hamburg Most of you who are here tonight Probably had difficulties to reach the university. I heard some people Needed even more than two hours to reach it because everything is occupied But we organized this event Please please enough of applause Because we don't have so much time and Okay This is like the scene from montipyton, you know When they say we don't we are all individuals and so on we don't want applause And then you applause for 10 hours and then we go away and that's it, you know Anyhow a dear friend has to join us from the Ecuadorian embassy At nine o'clock. So we have to stick a bit to the time. So don't applaud yet Applaud only once for one speaker. That should be the new rule And we will have more time What I wanted to say is that we organized this event precisely on the day when most of the international media Are reporting about the violence which is happening Of course our answer as progressive should be what is the violence Of the protesters on the streets compared to the violence of the system to the violence of the governments of the g20 Which is still provoking wars bombing yemen bombing syria Fueling true lucrative arm deals with saudi arabia done by tereza may and donald trump fueling isis Which is then bringing back terrorism To europe to manchester to london to berlin and so on what is the violence on the streets compared to this violence but as dm but Don't do that as as dm What we are aiming at precisely at this moment is something similar what vladimir ilic lenin did just before the october revolution You know what lenin did before the october revolution? He went to tsurich and he was reading hegel I'm not proposing you to read hegel tonight, but i'm proposing and via dm Are proposing you to rethink the very concept of disobedience What you could have seen during the last days here in hamburg are several forms of disobedience One form is the form of these events I'm not saying that this event is very original and so on we are still sitting in the room It is a conference room and so on there is a lot of applause a lot of smiles a lot of people came from protests and so on But it is still a kind of classical event We had the the gipfelfer global solidarity The alter summit. This is also a form of Disobedience which exists that's already with the wall social forum european social forum and so on Then you have the form of protest which will happen tomorrow, and I hope all of us will be there But let us not fall into the trap of the illusion that this protest tomorrow will change anything In 2003 there were more than 10 million people protesting in 600 cities Simultaneously against the war in iraq and the war in iraq still happened and we have the war in yemen We have the war in syria So mass protests marches in us against donald trump will also not change anything Which is not a reason not to come tomorrow. We have to come because symbolically it's important And then you have another form which we can see today on the streets of hamburg Which is the form of violent clashes with the police Again, as I said, what is this violence compared to the violence of the system? But what is missing in all these three forms is something what dm is proposing tonight, and we call it constructive disobedience Let me give just a short explanation of it before yanis varufakis joins us per widow And before we write many other people on the stage To show what concretely this means and what could be the next steps for our common struggle The term disobedience civil disobedience comes originally from hendry david toro as you know But most of the people know that hendry david toro Wrote an essay about civil disobedience, but they don't know the origin what happened before his own civil disobedience Probably, you know that hendry david toro That hendry david toro Decided to go out of the system to go to a lake and forest called walden to build a house He lived there for two years He left us with a brilliant book about living alone in the nature living alone with yourself and actually exploring yourself in order To be ready to do any kind of struggle Because the problem of the people who are on the streets of the young people and so on is that maybe they didn't explore themselves enough And they're already on the streets Provoking violence. Maybe this is a problem So what toro did is that he two years spent his time at walden and what happens next So first you have an attempt to get out of the system and to create a kind of self sustained Self-sustainable system. He went out of walden He was walking the street and a tax officer stopped him and asked him to pay taxes Henry david toro and this is the origin of this concept of civil disobedience Decided to disobey. He didn't pay taxes because he said that this taxes will directly go into a system Which is provoking war and supporting slavery. So he ended up in prison But this is still disobedience and I think we should do that. I'm not saying we shouldn't pay taxes But we should disobey today as well and especially here in hamlet But what we need today to do is to go a step further That means that we have to do precisely what lenient did before the october evolution We have to think we have to create concrete economic policies We have to create concrete as we will show today technological policies So that if we protest all together 100 000 people tomorrow We need to know what kind of world we want to create tomorrow Not just protest without any reason and that's a good, but I don't like that as well. It's it's too hipsterish I'm sorry. No, it's like, you know the americans and then everyone is doing that. We are I know our berlin berlin friends I'm not criticizing you but in this context. It makes more sense Because then you don't clap, but I'm sorry I'm stopping here. I will come back to stage Thanks a lot for coming today I hope you don't have necessarily to join dm, but join the big demonstration tomorrow I will give the word to Yanis Varoufakis now who wanted to be with us, but couldn't And then later I didn't invite people from all around europe to join us on stage Thanks a lot This is Yanis Varoufakis This message is coming to you from Greece. I wish I was there Hello everyone in Hamburg This is Yanis Varoufakis This message is coming to you from Greece. I wish I was there G20 Another G20 Another meeting of the world's high and mighty But this time things are quite different I read and hear in the systemic media that the G20 Demonstrations are nothing like they used to be in the past, but you know I'm not sure what I'm talking about I'm not sure what I'm talking about I'm not sure what I'm talking about Nothing like they used to be in the past, but yet again The G20 is not what it used to be in the past Once upon a time you will recall After the collapse of the Soviet Union The expansion of the G7 to the GNT to the G8 and later on the expansion to bring into the fold The rising powers of China, Brazil, India and so on the G20 was formed There was a time when these very Gs Were meetings in which neoliberalism took shape And the Washington consensus was spread throughout the world It was a time when the United States government The Japanese government, the British government and the European Union Were in unison about the need to push down wages Deny trade unions rights Expand the reach of multinational corporations And create pure freedom for capital and commodities While the peoples of the world were caged behind barbed wire That was a time when the G20 was a force of Regression, a force of neoliberal expansionism And it was of course a time where the G20 Caused a reaction amongst progressives Who got together to fight the G20 on the streets of various cities around the world Nowadays after the 2008 crisis We have a different set of circumstances Financialized capitalism has come up with a response to its 2008 crisis That is wholly inadequate even from the perspective of the interests of capital We are now going through a period that I think historians are going to refer to As the great deflation that has followed the great recession of 2009-2010 Deflationary periods just like the 1930s Create fragmentation of capitalism And give rise to the various cockroaches of xenophobic racism that we see all over the world The nationalist international as we at DiEM25 refer to it There is a problem we have with the G20 at the moment For instance in Hamburg As progressives The G20 arrived in Hamburg In a state of disrepair They disagree on almost everything with one another They are nothing like the G20 used to be They are not united anymore behind any particular project Not even a neoliberal one Donald Trump on the one hand and Angela Merkel on the other They are at odds They hardly speak to one another Or they do but it's facetious talk without any actual outcome It is very difficult for us to unite and to be truly energized Against the G20 that is a shambles But we must And we must because the establishment always manages to coalesce around Misanthropic, degenerate, recessionary, deflationary, antisocial themes Even through their disagreements They are remarkably good at in the end forging an unholy alliance That turns against decency, against humanism and against the interests of the many It is a gross error to think of our struggles as separate from those of the past decades and centuries for that matter One thing we have learned over the years and the centuries is that there is no such thing As a final victory There will be no moment when you and I all of us are going to be able to rest on our lores And say well we've achieved that which we should have achieved it But you know the fact that there is no such thing as a final victory also means That there is no such thing as a final defeat We, our generation, your generation, I'm sure many of you are much younger than me Are condemned and blessed at the same time with the duty of fighting the same fight The same war that previous generations gave And fight it again and again and again There will be no final victory and there will be no final defeat But there is going to be a major improvement to the lives of millions Billions as a result of what you're doing in Hamburg today As a result of the struggles that everybody around the world is involved in The struggles that we at DM25, the Democracy Europe movement, are supporting and are part of Throughout the continent of Europe and actually beyond Because let's face it The G20, whether they are united as they used to be in the past or disunited the way they are today They are pushing humanity towards a multiple crisis from which it is very possible that we Will not recover as a species ecologically, financially, socially, ethically We are the only force that can stop that And we are going to succeed in proportion to our capacity to say both A big no and a big yes A big no to the punitive neoliberal misanthropy that the G20 leadership is pursuing And a big yes to an alternative way of conducting humanities affairs At DM25, we put it so simply, I think, in two words Constructive disobedience We have a duty, this is a yes part, the big yes part, to put forward An agenda of social, economic, political change An agenda that is based on realistic policies And realistic changes to existing policies that can be affected tomorrow morning Which then can be mapped into much more radical change in two years time, in five years time, in 10 years time This is a constructive part And at the same time disobey This is the disobedience part, the no, the big no part Disobey that which is being peddled by the G20, by the punitive neoliberal failed establishment Today is just the beginning, like every other day We are never going to achieve victory and we are never going to be defeated We are going to do something different, a far more radical and far more important Steer humanity Steer the peoples of Europe, the peoples of the world In the direction of improvement for the many And in the direction of disempowering those who possess illegitimate power And who use it, not just illegitimately, but misanthropically With solidarity and wishes for everything you are doing in Hamburg This is Gensor Valkyrie's for DM25 Let me invite the guests of our first round table Vedran, Agnieszka, Elisa and Thomas I will introduce you as soon as you come to stage So, I'll introduce the speakers at the time when I give them the board I'll give the board first of all, thanks everyone to coming For coming, especially Agnieszka and Vedran Who came from, did you better come from Croatia or no? Yeah, from Croatia and Poland Flying in only today and it was pretty difficult as you know to reach this venue But I'll start with Thomas Who has a long experience in the struggles we have seen today In Hamburg, he belongs to the something what in Germany knows as the interventionist Schalinka Not so much on the streets anymore, but writing books at the moment But I'd like to ask Thomas for the beginning really for a comment So that this is not just another panel or something, but we have to react And reflect to the situation which is happening today and what is probably going to happen tomorrow as well How do you from your experience see these events? Is there any difference? And how can we do it in a more constructive, constructive way? Well, let me talk. Hello to everybody. Let me talk on constructive disobedience By going back to what we experienced the last days I'm a bit tired and I also have talked too much all the last days And uh, I will not go into philosophical philosophy will stick in it anecdotically To what we have experienced because that has very much to do with constructive disobedience And probably I will disappoint you because I will not give a simple answer But by sticking to a real story, you may get an impression That constructive disobedience is the thing we have to do, but it's not a comfort. So I will go back to Thursday evening The demonstration Welcome to Hell Organized by the autonome movement Mainly And it was one of the mistakes the other side was doing to bring The g20 meeting into a big city and to bring the g20 meeting into a city Which still is in some parts a stronghold of the autonome movement So let me go back to the Thursday evening We had a demonstration which was called welcome to hell, which is not a nice title And which what which was not meant nice at all One expression for that is what some of us a lot of us Not all of us Will know as the black block an invention of the 1980s The black block is a core figure of Constructive disobedience that may surprise you, but it is the case and I will come to this And I will be on this very point very precise on this point While telling a story there is no disobedience at all And there will be no disobedience at all If you not have disobedience in its pure and eminent sense And the pure and eminent sense of disobedience Is the radical negativity of disobedience And that is incorporated in the black block The black block often is accused of not communicating Not communicating with the government not communicating with the police and even not communicating with other parts of the movement Well Disobedience in the form of its radical negativity is the refusal of communication And the expression Of this refusal of communication with the given situation And that is incorporated. I repeat myself in the black block What was happening on Thursday evening was and Those of us who have some experience May agree with me that we all of us thought they will not let the black block go I knew these in advance. I was not sure But somehow I knew that they will not let the black block go And that was what they did So it took just five minutes And in a certain place those come for you coming from Hamburg will know this place There is a situation where you have a bridge a bridge Which you can close in the front you can close it in the back And then you have the situation if you come inside You can push all of them who are Under the bridge to the wall And that is what was done And it was an aggression deliberately And wanted and planned By the police so far about violence. Which violence we are talking about deliberately wanted by the police while going into the under the bridge and beating up The whole black block and everybody who was in this demonstration welcome to help beating up everybody pushing them against the wall with not the idea to get people criminals to Capture them to beat the people up and they was were deliberately beating on the legs of the people so that the people fall down And they were pushing them to the wall. They didn't capture anybody They were just beating them up And then there was a very special situation in the wall and tried the wall that people were helping some of them Because a lot of people were left side and right side. The demonstration was much bigger because you must somehow Join all those people watching into the demonstration. So the people were joining and when they saw What the police was doing with the ones in black They tried to help them come up to the wall and then the water cannons Were shooting exactly towards those people who tried To help some of these beaten down people up to the wall so that these people again fall down That was the police violence And that is the violence we have to talk about But our topic at the moment is constructive disobedience. So what is constructive disobedience first step? There will be no constructive disobedience never If we do not have The radical negativity of pure disobedience. We may not like that It may create problems for all of that We may definitely not like the concrete forms That all means constructive disobedience is in itself complex It's not a comfort zone. It is in itself controversial Maybe it's even a paradox A paradox and paradox So what is the way out? And I will go back to thursday evening When the autonom were beaten up There was a kind of final situation because the autonom have been beaten up by police completely And suddenly From those who have watched the scenery a small group Go down to the scene They had a transparent some of you who are Really experienced know We could identify the group. I will not Name this group, but we can identify them by what was written on the transparent It was written leich fliegen die Löcher aus dem Käse Some of us know when this transparent is coming up, we can identify the group. These people were suddenly on the street What does it mean? The demonstration was finished, but suddenly there was a transparent And a group walking behind this transparent and then suddenly More and more people joined And after some minutes There was a second Completely unplanned demonstration on its way Just following The invention of those people holding A transparent which was saying leich fliegen die Löcher aus dem Käse And then there were Talks with the police And it was claimed we want to have a second demonstration And then the police said okay, you can have a second demonstration and then we had a second demonstration And these demonstration was a huge demonstration as a constructive movement Of these demonstration was it was composed Of some people from the black block And then from people coming from all the different groups belonging to the movement Attack intervention is left Links party people who just have watched Yeah, which do not belong to any group all these people marched together up to the raper band And at the raper band these demonstration was declared to be finished and it was said for those of you who still have Want to go on there's a second demonstration on the holster And these was going deeply to the night and then this evening was finished with a victory not of the police But of our side and this story Tells something very essential of constructive disobedience Think about that. I don't give any answer because it's not a comfort zone. There is no simple answer But that was what's happening The whole thursday evening up to the late night. That was constructive disobedience just translated to all Other dimensions and levels of politics away from this anecdote. Thank you very much Thank you. Thank you thomas. I would go on with questions and discussions and sorry for Disturbing at one moment, but I have to be the annoying guy Who will stop you if you talk too much because of the timer there and well after the The livestream from the Ecuadorian embassy we can pose questions to juliana sange, but then we can also have a qna And a discussion among ourselves when we can discuss all these interesting and important points What I want to ask now to to to come to elissa who is a part of dm 25 Is what comes the day after? What does it mean when we all leave? Hamburg and when we all leave these scenes of solidarity, I would say there there is also what I've seen in this picture Described by thomas is actually solidarity between the ordinary citizens ordinary activists and the black bloke What do we day what does constructive disobedience means for you personally after you leave Hamburg and what could it mean for other activists as well You have the mic here. No, it's not on Hello person in existing there. Can you put on this mic? No Well, I don't know how many of us here are actually politically active But I don't think this really matters for what I'm going to say So, um, maybe you know Ada Colau who is the first female mayor of basalona from basalona and commu And according to the guardian she pinned a note on her front door of her office saying Never forget who we are and why we are here for And um, I think this understanding is like really crucial for the moment that we are living in because like this university Has created a heterotopia for us to meet and to discuss these things But when we go outside we can see the dystopian future and present that we are living in So, yeah on the one hand we are living in this extremely interconnected world um But what we are witnessing is that walls and that fences and barriers are becoming more prominent physically but also within our societies we can think about the Israeli wall that is enclosing Bethlehem Or the fence between Saudi Arabia and Iraq which should keep out islamic state so called islamic state um There's this enormous fence at the border of Morocco, which is enclosing the spanish enclave of melia I could go on of course famously the mexico-usa border which should soon be transformed into a wall with beautiful solar panels But of course this phenomena does not also only occur on the exterior and an exterior level But it very much also occurs within our societies. We can think about gated communities Gentrified cities Homes or so-called homes for people who are seeking asylum What is clear here is that humans who are fleeing from like from war zones Looking for shelter are not welcome, but at the same time We are witnessing how capital is flowing freer than ever Which is also connected of course to the g20 When the nation itself then is being privatized. It becomes more and more exclusive But I don't think that we have to be abstract in this respect at all because we are sitting in this university and I think we can feel in this Also in this space the very dimensions of the politics When we think about We were talking a lot about neoliberalism capitalism colonialism within the last few days But right now we are sitting right here. And as you know, many of you are students The project the political project of bologna had the idea to transform European society into a knowledge-based Economy and I think in doing this it was really successful because knowledge became transformed into something that can be measured and commodified So what we are doing today is we're chasing after credit points. We are collecting some kind of qualifications to increase our human capital And afterwards paradoxically the neoliberal establishment tells us well You will have a job sometime, but first you take this unpaid Internship and we obey this because we don't have an alternative and yeah, we just like become Our own slaves in this respect so What I'm trying to say and this That we cannot understand like neoliberalism as only a set of economic policies Which yeah, which Causes austerity and so on and so forth But it is very much a reason which is economizing every aspect of human life And we can see this in the way we communicate on social media We um become self-interpreters if we because we can like increase our visibility Through the number of followers and our profiles But this also goes like into the most intimate spheres of human life Which is which you can see for example on dating platforms so What I'm trying to say is that the political When we think about constructive Disobedience, we have to very much challenge the way that we think about the political because political power is not only exercise Informal governmental institutionalized spheres. Of course, we are not the g20 But political power is also within this space. It is in your work spaces and university It is everywhere and if we think about it that the political is actually very much about the social I think we are already Constructively disobeying a very hegemonic notion of the political So what does this mean for our activist lives for our daily lives and so and so on We have the luck that we are sitting here with anyashka and With vedran who are lived examples of how you can do politics differently But let me say a few things What I think is important which comes out of my experience within the last half year of dm 25 And I must say that I learned a lot from the other people in dm 25 And we can only understand this as a process of learning. We have to learn how we can do democracy But I think that this Very much poses a lot of challenges on us the major challenges. How do we how can we imagine this? We live in this interconnected world, but we don't yet know how to utilize the technology How to really connect to each other and how to do democracy So what can we do? um, tayati gosh who was speaking at the last panel of the Alter summit that many of you may have joined Referred to that we are living in this moment of transformation So why not use this moment of transformation? But seriously, I don't like I don't want to be told anymore by white old man How my future is going to look like so I think That we can start from here And this one goes out to all young women here claim these spaces if you see them go in there You really have something to tell In dm 25, I think what we can do is provide you if you want to With an infrastructure to open up spaces where we can do politics Differently we can do it differently We can open up these spaces and four alternative ways of doing politics of connecting to each other Of trying out of experimenting of learning from each other because this is not like already Dm cannot sell you already made solution already made process And I like what you said about the uncomfortable zone because as soon as we enter these arenas they become uncomfortable We become confronted with ourselves with others Especially with ourselves and this is really not comfortable so When we think about constructive disobedience, I think we have to radically rethink the idea of leadership and Connected to this the idea of experts. We do not need experts. We can do it too so What we can do Now I really mean this What we can do is by this challenge this notions and come up with different forms of doing politics We can make power something that is shared and that is creative and thereby challenge this very hegemonic centralized patriarchal structure of power which is in political economical spheres in the sphere of academia everywhere you look so we can and we have to put ecology and Sustainability and the issue of care at the center of our political agenda And I think we can learn a lot from other parties in this respect and I had the I was fortunate to talk to some other representatives of other movements and and parties from spain especially but also on yes guys here and Let me tell you this colonia and capitalism and patriarchy are not interested into this But we can do it and we can put it at the center of our agenda And this requires of course for us to be self critical But in a progressive way We can do politics in a broader and in a more holistic perspective Which is very much the opposite of what the g20 embodies We can invite others and listen to them And what they have to tell how they have many have a few probably have gone through these struggles already So why not open these spaces and listen to each other? It is legitimate in these spaces that we can open to speak about experience And when we think about diversity we should not think about diversity in the sense of like An equal representation of gender but diversity is a value in itself It refers to of a diversity and knowledge or what Vandana Shiva was talking about Okay The mic doesn't work That's the mic