 In 2010, out of our apartment, the high school was 9-11. There were oil wars all through my formative youth, and this was an important issue for us. Brett and I graduated in 2020 when there were not a lot of jobs, so we decided, okay, we'll make our own jobs. Let's see if we can tell eBytes, and that's how we ended up opening the new wheel. And it's been phenomenal to see the distance one can take, a city or a group of riders in a rather short period of time, just by carrying deeply. And so I'm really stoked at the opportunity that we have as a state. Go ahead and head with cars. A lot of trips. Great. So thank you for our panelists for being here. So let's start today with a little bit of a conversation about the advantages of eBytes today. We know that a lot of folks will use eBytes recreationally, but also we're seeing more and more folks switch to eBytes for commuting. So Pete or Karin, you want to spin? So a great example. Okay, kind of. All right, so a great example of this is yesterday. We took 15 people across and did a samples to the bike tour, and there was a number of people around in eBytes for the first time, and when we got to the hills, it just changed the way that they could get up the hill easily with less effort. So when you think about commuting, what's the big challenge when you're trying to commute into work? You show up, you're sweaty, you're hot. eBytes open that up differently. You can commute easily. You can also turn the power off on a bike and get the exercise you need, but it just opens up that door as far as capabilities of where you can get to and from, especially a city like San Francisco, right? And there's so many hills. We were getting on the ferry last night after a ride, and I saw a lot of people commuting off in bikes, and I looked behind me at the hill there about to go up, and I was like, well, I hope most of them are on eBytes because I wouldn't make it otherwise. But I think that's a big thing that it does. It opens up not just the topography, but the distance as well. So most eBytes are then built, and so just think of, you know, if you can do, you know, a class two eBytes does 20 miles an hour at max speed. So if you could do, let's say, 15 to 20 miles an hour, you could commute on a bike a long distance, saving the environment, helping the environment, and just enjoying the ride in a lot more than I think you would behind the wheel of a car and the frustration and stuff and go, I know every time I bike into an office or a location we have, it just changes the way I feel in the morning. How many people here have ridden an eBike? How many people had ridden an eBike five years ago? What's your name? Hi, Smitty. That's okay. Okay, so the number one thing that has changed in eBikes is how many people have ridden them. How available they are, how the price points, the quality, all sorts of things. It will surprise you to know that 10 years ago, bikes at the lower price point were actually pretty widely available in America because stores like, oh my God, I'm having a total brain fart up here at the second, but at Best Buy sold basically class two eBikes 10, 15 years ago, the thing that didn't exist was higher quality, vehicular quality bicycles that were really built to replace cars, built to climb and descend, really steep hills, and built to last in the way that an item that costs $1,500 to $10,000 has to be reliable. And so I think the question was what, like where are we at in the industry? What's up? Okay, well, at the new wheel, we've been seeing all sorts of people, like I've been telling the whole bike industry, well, this is not, there is no demographics for eBikes. So all you people who think that there's a demographic for eBikes, it's called you're human. So we have been helping people who had various abilities, various income levels, various needs for 10 years. The thing that is so exciting right now is that we have a much more open mindset around it. We used to have to explain to people at such length what an eBike was before they would get onto it. And now everybody at least knows somebody who has tried an eBike and they're like, oh, I wanna try this, this is gonna be magic, this is gonna be fun. This is gonna make bicycling fun for me because the reality is bicycling has not always been fun for everybody, right? Like I was born in Copenhagen and in Copenhagen, bicycling is fun and convenient and accessible in San Francisco. I don't care how many bike lanes you have, it's hard. Like it's really hard. For example, like if you just had a kid or if you broke your knee or if you didn't sleep well last night, it's really hard. And so the doors are open. People understand this as a potential solution to all those things. So what do you think is the problem? He's not first, he's not second or second. But finally, he needs a partner. So what we're looking at is what's going on. Tyler's so fancy, the delivery operation is done. He's sooner, he's comfortable, but he doesn't fit into the federal office. He's not, he's working really hard. He's by that, he's got everything he has to cut it. He's the first to put it in his bike. Because we know that he likes to do his kind of stuff with a lot of people. He's actually doing his thing. He's actually not trying to do his thing. He's looking for a moment to know what's going on. So he's pretty connected with the bike that's a lot heavier. He's been so kind, he's got the ability to do it. So we're finally getting to that. He's done the education on his bike. He's done some, he's done a lot of college and he's got a quite good connection. But once I get it, now that I've got the same connection, let's get all these students happening. So we're going to have three, we're going to do three. Thanks for your question, Noah. So it strikes me on these policy levels that most Americans, many Americans have made a massive investment in our transportation infrastructure that's called like a personal vehicle, right? And they pay every month for gas and insurance and all this stuff. And so when we're asking them to make another investment, that's, it's a tall ask. And that's one of the really cool things about the rebates. Have you thought about pitching trading programs for cars? We pitched it all. We were proud to get it at the Wall Street stuff. No, absolutely, you know, here in California, here on the precipice, you'll have to come to a program. It's a different air quality program, but I think that all of these things are, I mean, as it is, that you can invest in many things so far, but it's really, it's the federal level, it's the hardest to do everything, but, you know, tax credit is sort of the first thing you can ever do as the kind of thing you have in the country here that may be better. What's the standard that the people who support the federal government? What makes this the country's most federal rebate policy? You go over it. So I think the tax refunds are in the trading program for the next few months or years, but I think it's more, putting taxes on the state and local level, but it's not going to be the ability to answer that. Thanks. Actually, this morning, Brexit, Noah and I were also talking about how we might do with our businesses, how we might be able to support the transition to the private sector. That's an example of how we can do, how we can develop better programs where when you're thinking about the future, you're always interested in the future of how we're going to be able to hold there and also look for the part of the people that are going to be able to do all of this. Just one of the ways in which one of the, that they have a lot of tools in the right-hand side. 12-year-olds on e-bikes is like one of my favorite problems in the world. It's a significant problem. I see it in my neighborhood, but how rad, right? Like totally rad. I wanna first start by saying that I think it's our job to be really positive. There is too much negativity. These kids have a big, big problem on their hands and it's the making of the last 150 years that we've cooked up the problem we've got. But there's good news. The carbon cycle is like 125 years, which means that when their kids are adults, if we make major changes in our behaviors or if our 12-year-olds make major changes in their behaviors, there's actually hope, right? So this is not like the end of history. We can't see assholes. Like it's really important. I think it's like this one on stage. But so anyway, that's the first thing. The second thing is from a really actual standpoint, I think there is a lot that we can do in terms of just getting into schools through like, through, oh my God, what is it called? Safe Routes to School. But just through direct work with educators, with libraries, with parents. I think the work that bike coalitions do is really important. I do a lot with the San Francisco Bike Coalition. And honestly, one of the really big benefits of the pandemic was that being able to bring education to a digital platform makes it more accessible for people who have kids who are busy, who can't like drop everything and show up somewhere. And so I'm a big fan of the idea of like creating classes for 10 and 12-year-olds on a computer. Well, we can just be like, hey guys, this is what it's like to have responsibility when you're 12. It means that the sign that it says stop, you actually have to read it and you have to stop. And you know, et cetera. So I don't know, I think 12-year-olds are pretty smart. I think we should treat them like they're smart and we should start educating them. But that's the flip-in like retailer. Oh, thank you. I would just add to, I think it's, you know, people riding on a sidewalk of any age is a policy failure. It's a planning failure. That's not, you know, the behavior isn't the problem. It's the lack of access to a safe, protected, connected bike infrastructure network. Thank you. And that doesn't even have anything to do with e-bikes. The e-bikes are just amplifying what we're calling a problem of kids riding on sidewalks. But that's existed for a long time and it's not just kids. It's in a lot of places outside necessarily. The specific areas in Southern California, it's black and brown riders. It's low-income riders that are being criminalized for riding on sidewalks when that's their only safe option. You know, whenever we're talking about, there's too many riders are getting in the way of pedestrians. It's not regulating behavior. That never works. We've seen that tried over and over again in so many ways. It's infrastructure. It's finding the systems, investing in the systems that make that movement safe. And so whenever that issue is presented to me, it's like, oh, but these dang kids on e-bikes, I'm like, give them a bike lane. And then they won't be on the sidewalk. And that's it. Absolutely. And I think that makes the safety conversation and making infrastructure more available is absolutely something that is a big part of how we get more people out on e-bikes and on regular bikes as well. So, Pete, I wanna ask you, as someone who is from the industry, can you talk a little bit more about what the industry is doing in terms of safety and also security for e-bikes and for regular bikes as well? Yeah, you brought up two problems. And Karen addressed the one a lot, which is younger riders who are either uneducated or unaware of the challenges. So that's our biggest thing before us and other retailers are selling a bike, I think education, a bike school program or something you take a consumer through. We do it with every transaction we have with customers. We either send it to them or we do it in person in our retail stores, because I'm sure you and other retailers do as well. So I think educating them on the safety and understanding. We also advise that children under 16 don't ride an e-bike at the start. You know what I mean? You wanna make sure that it's traveling 20 miles an hour. If there's not bike lanes, there's a lot of safety issues. So we wanna definitely educate the consumer as much as possible. Another growing challenge that you have, the e-bikes presents is their higher value than most traditional bikes that people have ridden before, theft, theft is a big problem. And it's probably, you know, when I look at social media posts and I look at social media forums, I see about 20% of the threads around safety as well. So that is another big piece that I think we need to do as a community is educate people on safety and protection. Because if I as a consumer go buy a rat power bike and I spend $1,500 on that bike, and two weeks later it's taken from me, I'm probably not gonna reinvest in that again because I don't trust the system. Unfortunately, we have to do a better job. I think all of us of educating everyone on the safety and security, you know, I was riding yesterday with a group and handed an individual helmet. And I said, hey, you need to ride with this helmet. He goes, I don't wanna wear a helmet. I said, well, you can't ride one of my bikes without one. And I was watching throughout the day and I'm like, do you realize how fast you're going up and down hills here? What would happen if something happened to you? So I think that's another educational thing when you think of youngsters or people who bike traditionally that e-bike they need to wear, it was just a safety and that's a primary thing. Yeah, you're absolutely right. And as we talk about, you know, as we talk about safety and as we talk about e-bikes, they are expensive and they are, you know, a lot of legislators see them as toys more than tools. So how do we start to convince legislators that e-bikes really are a tool that can be useful for not just businesses, but also improving some of the transportation challenges that we all face throughout the country? No. Happy to. So this has been an ongoing education campaign from the bike industry, e-bike industry and you all, all you great advocates is helping policymakers make that shift from here's a nice thing for some wealthy people in my community to go out and have fun on to this is a legitimate mode of transportation that's going to improve efficiency, reduce congestion, lower emissions, get people to essential services and work. And a lot of that, you know, our first recommendation at people for bikes is to get those policymakers on an e-bike, do a demo, take them to a local shop, connect them with brands based in their districts and getting that first, you know, touch on an e-bike they get that smile. They're like, oh, I get it now. And, you know, that doesn't necessarily change their policy agenda, but it gives them the foundation to make that change. And from there, you know, we need so much more research. It's something that people for bikes we're investing heavily in is research on e-bike use cases, effects to infrastructure, how much, how many emissions are we taking out? Or, you know, tons of CO2 are being removed from the air by replacing car trips with e-bike trips. What are the healthcare savings by getting more people on e-bikes and outside of cars? And like, what are the social consequences of more e-bike riding? Research, data, statistics, that sells in policy. And so those are the numbers that I use to make the case when I'm in front of policymakers and their staff. And then additionally, you know, getting the advocates, the local brands, the local shops, you know, I work with Rad Power Bikes all the time. Darren over there, to connect with, you know, your folks in the great state of Washington, they wanna hear from the businesses that are doing really well in their areas. And that's a really powerful voice. I think combining the advocacy, the research and data, and then the business voice is really the trifecta of like getting e-bikes to the next level in a policy conversation. I think a great example of where, how far we still have to go in this is just what occurred a few weeks ago in California. So right when gas prices started hiking, the first thing that the government came out and said is, well, we'll give gas incentives back. You're solving the wrong problem at this stage. And so I think we have to figure out how to get our local lawmakers involved more to understanding. And I think test riding is a key example because we talked about commuting, but I tell people a lot, like half of our consumers are over 60 years old. That's what drew me to e-biking. I took a test ride and next to me pulled up, who was older and they're like, you have no idea, I haven't been on a bike for 15 years. This is changing my life from a health standpoint, from an accessibility to a mobility standpoint. So not only commuting, we need everyone. If it's just people talking about commuting only, you're battling against oil, car companies, et cetera. But if you have everyone talking about lifestyle change, I think that's gonna help as well. Okay, I have some things that's, I think that there is, there's the policy side, there's the physical infrastructure side, and then there are two other parts that are really, really important. And that is that there's human capital involved in this change and there is cultural capital. So the first thing is that the bike community has to stop talking about e-bikes as being really expensive bikes, because in fact, they are really inexpensive transportation. They are really quality transportation. They're reliable if they're good and they have to be good to be good transportation. And so it's up to us in the room to change the conversation and to say, hey, what are we comparing this to? Because the minute I start comparing my cargo bike that takes my kid on it with a car, there is no comparison. There is absolutely no comparison. And on the service side, the important thing is that if you look at a service menu for a bike shop from 1989, you'll see that the cost for a tire change was $10. Five years ago in a bike shop, the cost for a tire change was still $10. Bike shop professionals were being, are being paid up until the pandemic, minimum wage. And they are skilled people. They are more skilled than an auto mechanic is today because it is more finicky, more detailed, more difficult work. So with less safety built in, I mean, I could go on and on and on. So finally, we're paying these people okay. But as a bike community, we have to understand that that's part of what we're doing is we are raising all of that. We're raising an entire group of human capital that needs to flourish in order to allow this movement to flourish, so not policy, but culture. Absolutely. And culture is a huge part of how we get people and convince people that e-bikes are more than toys. They are transportation and they are a mode of transportation that makes sense. And Karen, you brought up the pandemic and how in the last few years, we have seen a significant increase in the interest in e-bikes. So share with us, you know, as someone who runs a retailer, share with us a little bit more of your experience of the types of folks that have been coming in and what are some of the conversations that you're having with them about moving from a regular bike to an e-bike or even from a car to an e-bike? Yeah, the first thing I wanna say is that in 2010, when we were telling people about e-bikes and walking around with e-bikes and going to farmers markets to sell e-bikes, cause we didn't have a store, the only people we didn't have to explain what this thing was to and like sell it, were like the homeless people that were with us on the street. Like low-income people and how rad this is, immediate, bam, so and they always have. So I just wanna say it's not lost on all sorts of people, a very diverse group of people. And that has been true for a long time. The, at the new wheel, we've been very focused on transportation quality bikes for the whole time. So we've been selling bikes to a diverse group of people, most of whom wouldn't consider themselves probably regular bicyclists, like wouldn't feel super comfortable going into like a normal bike shop. And so for us, we've seen multiple growth, like multiple X growth every year for a long time. So that wasn't anything new. There were a couple of things that happened during the pandemic. During the pandemic, bicycling became more than just like what people thought broke people do to get to work or really elite people do instead of golf. It became a, it became a safe pastime. And so it skyrocketed in popularity. And for regular bicycle shops who had seen their bike shops shrinking for the last 10 years or more, ever since we got doping going on with our friend Lance, bike shops have been shrinking. And it's been really rough on those bike shops. It's been like you should love and hug every bike shop person you know, because it's hard work. And what happened during the pandemic is everybody all of a sudden had interest in their wares. They sold all their bikes. And the only thing left to sell in like June of 2020 was e-bikes. And so that brought a whole new load of inventory into shops. It brought a whole new load of interest. I mean, there was already, the interest already existed, but it made it so that all of a sudden we added an enormous growth in who could go and just see one of these and try one of these. And their neighbor had a rad power and their other neighbor like went to the new wheel and did a test ride and thought that was cool. And so it was just like, it was a thing. And it exploded. And so the whole tone has changed. And what happened I think for us is that we saw all of a sudden classical bicyclists like people who are hardcore bicyclists for life get interested in e-bikes. And that was the transition that we had to manage. So it's been, I think it's been different for everybody, but it's really that now everybody bikes and specifically everybody e-bikes. And that includes the 12 year olds. It includes the 85 year olds. It includes the people who have MS and the people who are trying to get to their job in critical care or at a corner store or at a school. And so that's been a huge growth. It's been very exciting to see and it's been a huge challenge to rise to for the infrastructure, especially the bike shop and the service infrastructure that exists because it is so under everything. So hopefully. I have one thing for Kevin. So you mentioned usage. We talked about commuting earlier. One of the biggest things we're seeing as well is like cargo, highly utilization of a bike as well where people are thinking about different. Obviously you have like food service deliveries and other things, but we had a customer. Our customers love to tell us afterwards like how they're using a bike. We had a customer the other day who sent us a picture of it and it was the most awesome, radical way I've seen an e-bike used. So it was a wagon bike for us, which is a longer kind of cargo bike. They had a trail hook to it and on the trailer they had a ladder, they had the jewels. This was a handy person who went around and that was their form of transportation in the LA market. And they mentioned that they can get from job to job faster and they were pulling a probably six foot long, three foot wide trailer behind them. And I love the innovation of someone thinking differently about their business. So their business now costs what? Under $2,000 to buy the transportation. Nothing hardly at all, except little small amounts to charge a battery. And they now have a flood, you know, business is growing with very minimal costs and it's helping them do it more efficiently. So it's just really cool when you hear stories like that. Yeah, absolutely. And I think we'd love to hear more of those types of stories, but just a lack of awareness. And so something that Pete that you had sort of mentioned before was you're just starting to see more and more people be aware of what is possible. Are there other sort of stories or other sort of awareness factors that you'd like to share? I think all of us have to help people become aware. That's a big thing because it's interesting. I don't know what you see in your story, but a lot of you, everyone raised their hand when we said who's ridden an e-bike. So who has an e-bike? Okay, so that's somewhat representative. If you come into like our store, if you ride a bike, there's a high likelihood you're going to purchase a bike because of the fun you have on it, obviously, how you can see it being utilized in your life. I think we need to just continue to do a better job of educating and informing people of how different applications of an e-bike can be used. So whenever someone comes in to visit us at Rad, the first thing I always ask the customer is, how are you gonna use it? Like, let's make sure we get you on a bike that you're gonna utilize that you want. So many times people are like, well, some friends had it, or I need to take my kids to school, or I need to do X, Y, or Z. And then what we try to do is say, okay, well, how else would you use it? What are some other ways? And that goes beyond just what you were talking about. Just a commuter or just a once-used thing that becomes part of your life where you're thinking about everything differently. Hey, I'm gonna run down to the local coffee shop. It's only a few minutes away. I'm gonna do that. Oh, I am gonna take my kids to school. Maybe I'm gonna run to the grocery store. And so I think for us, and I'm sure as an industry, we've got to help people better understand that it's not simply just a replacement for the bike you have, it's a different way to move around your city or your community. So. Can I add some in the middle of the book? Go for it. Okay. What's interesting is that changing behaviors is so tricky. Right? And this person, the bicycle industry itself, didn't want bicycles sold in the United States in their cars. But we don't see commercials on TV or media. There's no industry thing pushing bicycles away. We want to use cushions and jam cars out of the field and they create economic. So the politicians, they keep cars on the road. When the industry is going to collaborate and start selling on a national basis or a regional basis or have the club let the audience be asked. I mean, obviously there's a lot of people but you can ask a club and they can't be there. Yes. I think it's more for Noah. I think it's more gonna make yourself so like. No, I think it's for bike industry. Well yeah, he's part of the bike industry. So the leaders of multiple bike companies in the industry. So our founder, Mike Ratnop, which is where he comes from, he participates in working with people for bikes. So we're trying to bring them together to like consolidate efforts because one voice alone can't change it. So we've got to figure out how to bring them together. Yeah, I think it's one, we don't have car money. Something I say a lot, but you're right. Like a national ad campaign, more unified. I mean, of course, if you search eBike, you're gonna know which companies are paying for ads on like Google search or on news. But yeah, I mean, we're ripe for it. There's a lot of conversation about it. It's just, it's a new venture in a way that I don't think the bicycle industry has necessarily come together on a national ad campaign before. But it's also, I think the future of advertising is a whole other conversation that I'm not qualified to speak on. And, but I think it's digital. It's on social media. And you're seeing a lot of brands do that. The ones that have the capacity to, but there's absolutely, you know, conversation of people for bikes being the like industry association for bicycles on how we elevate it at a national level, how we elevate eBikes and bicycling. And there was some examples of that earlier in the pandemic that we came around on. But, you know, hearing that it didn't reach you was good feedback for us. And absolutely something for us to work on. I'm gonna say something really controversial. The bicycle industry has a real problem with just being a business, right? So like rad power, they're very focused on hitting a $2,000 price point. You just told me that. That's how I know that. So he told me that. That's right, we want to make it affordable for everyone. Right, so, but that means that you don't have the money for marketing. The car industry has been focused on changing people's behaviors at all levels at deep levels for a long time. So I think the change is required on everybody's part. That means that, unfortunately, we can't just point at Noah and say, hey Noah, can you get it done for us? Thanks, that's a cop out. What we need to be doing on the bike coalition level is acting like the triple A of bicycles. Triple A went in and they went in with the express interest to undermine bicycle infrastructure and to make room for cars. And they did that culturally, they made vacations, they recommended restaurants, they gave you tire changes, they gave you maps, they gave you all the things you need to make driving a car easy. Where are our bikes coalitions? Like honestly, I belong to the bike coalition board for the San Francisco Bike Coalition and this is my pitch to them over and over and over again. Let's make bicycling easy, convenient, fun and let's just be triple A, let's just take their line and just move it over to the bike industry. So I think that we all have our responsibility in this. We have to stop thinking cheap, we have to reinvest in our companies, reinvest in the market and start thinking really, really big, which is that in fact, especially in California, most trips can be taken by bicycle. So let's just get it done. So I think with that, I wanna open it up for some Q and A and I see a few hands in the audience. So first one I saw was Gary over there in the back. Yeah, I asked him a new person in the neighborhoods of E-Bikes and E-Bikes news group structure. I think a lot of the planning for infrastructure is not meant to be for E-Bikes to go around and go to the city. I'm currently on a stormy day and it was fine, but I couldn't imagine that it's going to be 28 miles an hour. Yeah, that's it. We've got to be like this for my travel and do a lot of that. So I'm wondering, two things are people thinking about changing E-Bikes until they're constructed and E-Bikes and secondly, how do people here use their E-Bikes money with a project like L.A. with a narrow road on Y-Bikes and then what do you think about that? So just to repeat the question, you're asking about whether or not we're thinking about changes to infrastructure to accommodate E-Bikes. So what I'll say at the federal level that people for bikes is doing is having, we're doing a lot of communication, conversations with the Department of Transportation about as we're talking and providing guidance on the implementation of the massive infrastructure bill that includes billions of dollars that could go to bike infrastructure. In that guidance, we need some specifications that are going to cities and states on bike lanes that support commercial E-Cargo bikes. This is actually a really big problem in New York City where their bike lane regulations are pretty narrow and it's making it really difficult for commercial E-Cargo bicycles to do that first-last-mile delivery operation. So where you have specific examples is what we need to be able to show the case this problem to DOT so they can start doing the trickle-down guidance to states and localities as they get this funding to build out their bike networks. So please share your examples with me because that's fodder that I can use as an advocate at the federal level. I just, I mean, what we've seen in San Francisco is that we're already definitely outgrowing our bike in infrastructure. And my pitch to our community is that what we need is we need human-scale bike networks, right? So we just, instead of talking about lanes, like let's just take full street networks and say these are the places where people go as two-legged, two-wheeled things. And here are the places that are really convenient for cars. We're gonna keep those places separate and we'll make it as functional as possible for everybody to share the space. So that's my pitch. Slow to gain traction, but it is gaining traction, especially with the streets that were closed during the pandemic. And now we're in the process of sort of negotiating how all that goes down. But I really think we already have the infrastructure we need. We just have to restripe it and put up some light combs. Exactly, yeah. My name is Kasak. I run a bike mechanic education program over in West Oakland. And you touched on this briefly. One of the things that is great about eBikes is that the salary for a starting eBike mechanic is much higher, high enough that you can get funding for job trainings programs, which is impossible for a regular bike mechanic because basically they start at minimum wage. The big problem is that I've encountered is that while bikes, like the Rad Power bikes and the bikes that you sell are very easy to fix when you work in that shop, you learn how to fix that bike. Do you know if there's any plans in the future for a broader education program to teach people how to fix eBikes in general and not just one brand or another brand? That is a great question. And we, so in LA County, we've actually started looking at partnerships with community colleges and vocational programs to hopefully provide that type of training to some extent. It's just in its nascent stage. It's early on, but it is something that we have started to think about is how do we take some of these programs where people can learn these mechanical skills, the electrical skills that are necessary to actually make themselves be more be more capable and be more marketable to eBike companies or to micro mobility companies that rely on that technology and be able to take advantage of that as a way of making a living. Yeah, I think Darren on our team would know more about it, we just did something in West Virginia, right? Where we donated bikes to a local higher education institution where they're actually building mechanic programs. And I think that's the critical thing is, you talk to, I've got two teenage kids that are coming out of that high school era and they're one of them's talking about like, hey, should I work on cars? And I'm like, no one's talking about bikes yet and we've got to do a better job of helping them understand that there is a career path within this industry that is only going to grow. So there's things that we as companies are doing. High school, thanks, thanks for the correction. So we did a high school program in West Virginia and I think more and more educational, educational foundations or organizations doing that is gonna help. And I think one last note on that is, it's important to actually start to create a pipeline early. So we started looking at how to educate students from as young as the elementary and middle school age to get them into biking and wrenching on their own bikes so that they start to develop that interest and to create a step all every, to create a opportunity every step of the way so that at the middle school, at the high school level and then eventually at the community college or vocational training level, they have the opportunity to move up and understand that there's actually a career path for them to actually work on bikes for the rest of their life. So in Paris, the speed limit is 90 miles an hour. This is the time. Me, Mike, that's 20 miles an hour. No, it's for those. Okay, sorry. So in Paris, the speed limit is 90 miles an hour. Electric bikes make like 29, the higher model. 20 seconds. 20 seconds. Should we limit speed limit for electric bikes? Because it seemed that if we're interested in a whole picture of mobility, there are a lot of people that want to walk on the street, across the street. And if you have these bikes going around at 30 miles an hour, I think that would make our environment more dangerous. So I wonder whether the industry is open to making the bike less appealing by slowing down its speed. So I mean, the European market and the American, the landscape is very complicated and lots of things fit together, right? And so here in California, we have a three class system. It's modeled on the European system, which is true, which is in place in France too. In Europe, class one tops out at 15 miles an hour and class two is or speed pedalex go to 27 and a half. I think it's 35 kph are much more strict with how they maintain where a speed pedalex can go and where it can't go. They are more clearly marked. They're required to have license plates, et cetera. They've been very proactive in Europe around what is qualified as an electric bike and what isn't and how those rules are maintained, especially in urban areas. In here in California, we actually have those rules. It's just that a lot of bikes are outside of the class system and nobody cares. And I mean, there are import rules that need to be improved to make sure that this is not a problem. The problem is not the rules. The problem is not maintaining the rules and especially on the import side, I would say, it's a disaster. Things are coming in from China that are not safe, should not be worked on quite honestly by anybody. And just to speak really briefly to your question, I think that there's an import issue here and there's also a insurance issue because you can't just work on anything. You have to, like if you are gonna be paid a professional wage, there are certain levels of standards of quality that are important. So that's part of our cultural shift too. Obviously, we have to hold companies accountable to following those rules as well. We do not sell a bike that goes over 20 miles an hour because that is the law, that is the rule. And so we are very much following that. And we also think that's a safe speed which someone should travel. So I think you mentioned a perfect car. I'm like getting, not letting people wanna navigate the system in to allow, because you see companies, all they advertise is speed and we're like, this is not a motorcycle, this is a bike, it's a class two bike. This is why we have the regulations on, we do. Thanks. I'm Liza Lester from WalkBike Berkeley. One thing that I, you spoke a little bit to the security issue of people stealing bikes, but this is something that I feel like a lot of people aren't talking about. So I ride what was initially an acoustic cargo bike with my kids when they hit a hundred pounds. I retrofit it to be electric. And I am lucky enough to own a home where I can build a shed, where I can store my bike. Okay? However, work in an office building that has a huge bike room, but every single bike parking unit is a hanging thing. I go to bike link lockers, which are showing up all over the East Bay. Wonderful, huge, secure bike lockers. My bike can't fit in it. If we want to open this up to folks who are living in apartment buildings, who can't lift e-bikes upstairs, to folks with mobility issues, to folks who need to leave their bikes at work. This is a huge missing issue, is the bike security and bike parking issue that I don't hear coming at state levels or at the federal level that I really love. And I just love to hear your thoughts on, as we push for more incentives for people to buy e-bikes, how are we ensuring that there are places for everybody across the spectrum, not just people living in single family homes with garages to park their bikes? Such a good question. And I have two answers to that. The first one from a policy standpoint is that, you're right, we needed to start having this conversation years ago, especially from an equity angle. If we want to make e-bikes accessible to lower income people who live in walk-up apartments in urban areas, we're not doing that by pushing bikes at them and not giving them a safe place to do it 100%. So at a very specific policy level, what I'm doing is working in this called the Charge Coalition. And it's an advocacy organization focused on the electrification of the transportation system, very specifically with focus on the implementation of the infrastructure bill. And so going back to that piece of DOT guidance, something that we're drafting, we're in the process of drafting our principles now that we'll be sharing publicly very soon. And if you aren't on our emails, please get on it. So then you'll be updated. But very specific to that was a very, it was an intentional conversation that I had with folks from groups like Transportation for America and the NUMO, New Urban Mobility Alliance, about how security and storage is part of the infrastructure network that we're talking about when we talk about bike infrastructure. It's not just the moving part, it's the storage. So we're specifically looking at guidance and potentially funding for storage in residential areas and in commercial areas. You may be familiar, there's some programs, pilots that are starting startups in New York City that I think really need to start being replicated. It's a winning business model. And so if you're not like we should, the bike industry needs to be investing in that more and that's what I tell my members daily. But it's, we're starting the conversation too late at a policy level, but it is happening. And then the second part is as we see more incentive programs show up for e-bikes, whether it's rebates, vouchers, tax credits, other types of pilots. One of the biggest pushbacks I get is like, what about bike share? What about storage and what about infrastructure again? And I think, you know, having programs like what could be coming out of California soon, we're not totally sure what the details will be. What was just introduced in Colorado is e-bike rebate incentive programs that give a lot of flexibility to local governments to design what works best for their community and whether that's investing in an e-bike lending library or their e-bike share program where that makes more sense from a storage perspective in their community than individual ownership by all means. And so that's what we're looking for when we're working with city, states and the federal government on designing these types of programs is giving some flexibility and capacity authority to local agencies and local nonprofits or, you know, bids and other things to create the programs that make sense for the storage and infrastructure needs of their community. I think e-bike share is a really great solution to a lot of these problems too, but it just needs more investment. I thank you for the information that you've shared. I'm actually from Los Angeles and, you know, my mind goes kind of everywhere when I even think about how can we introduce e-bikes in particular in communities of color. There is a gap that really stands out in terms of just getting people of color on bikes, let alone e-bikes. I organized an event, a community event about a week ago and the goal was that we would be able to get our predominantly brown and black community out on bikes to ride a new bike lane. But the response was low of the brown and black population that came out. And not to say that the project event was not a success because who was there was supposed to be there, you know, at that time. So basically, I think we have to acknowledge this gap that exists, which is in most cases a economic gap, which is a historic problem in America. But at the same time, why do we have e-bikes? My understanding is it is an environmental number one solution and that our black and indigenous people of color, which is a large population, for instance, in my community, West Adams, we have roughly about out of 30,000 people that live in that community, at least 20,000 of them are brown and black. So they're part of the solution for our climate crisis, yet they're not in this conversation, yet they're not on bikes. So we're not gonna really get to where we need to go until we first make sure that we get our black and indigenous people of color involved in this conversation, that they are economically compensated and that they are trained to become leaders in order to save our planet, in order to save human life. So I guess my question on that is that I do, I wanted to give your take, number one, I think schools, churches, community centers like YMCA would be key locations that we can start developing policy around developing our education. That's just where I go, because we need to start early, like you said. And then in terms of, I just wanted to give all of your takes on how are you gathering data for these issues that I just named from policy level in DC, to how are, what is your equity lens in terms of being able to address this most vital problem, which is that black and brown lives are like, are you crazy? I'm not gonna ride on Adams, I'm not gonna ride on Washington, I mean on Western, even though LA Dot and organizations like that are involved. What I see is that there are, like there's a huge impetus to actually get very serious about what people at the low income, like low income people, generally speaking, what they need in order for this to be viable for them. Because capitalism is, American capitalism isn't doing very well for a lot of people right now. And you see that, this is another unpopular thing I'll probably say, I'll probably tweak somebody out of place on this one, but the privatization of e-bike share and these floating e-bike models are not good for people who need reliability. And if you are low income, you need reliability. I think it's horrible to say, oh yeah, just open up the app and hopefully you'll have a bike you can get to work on. Like, okay, that's not a good solution if I'm at a low income level. And so there is so much room for progress, that's my hopeful side, right? There's also like at our store, and if you look at my store, it looks fancy, you know? Like people think we're really fancy, but the people we work with are very normal. Like very, you know, we help really fancy people too if we have to, you know? But we help people at every economic level because that's our mission. We don't care how much you make, it does not matter. And so there's a, I don't have a really specific answer for you other than that I know that there are so many opportunities and that what we have to do is we have to get, what I see like in the bike coalition that I work with is that they're doing a lot of looking at these communities instead of like just being in them. And so that's what we ought to do, I don't know. And we also have to encourage those people, I think the bike community is very intimidating. Like as a white woman, I am intimidated in the bike community, right? I go into these rooms and like it's a new thing to not just have a bunch of bros at every bike event. That has happened in the last 10 years while I've been in it. And so if you have any otherness about you in our community, you may not be, so I just think, shoot, let's just be so kind to each other. We were talking earlier because Kevin was worried that we were gonna have a bunch of e-bike haters in here, which we might have some quiet e-bike haters. We'd love to hear from you. But my point really is that this platform is a joyous, fricking wonderful thing. Like we get to be so happy on our e-bikes. We get to be so generous and so joyful. And that means we don't have to have any like, weirdness between each other. So that's how I see it. I don't know. I think there's so much possibility, but we gotta get really more real with ourselves and less like us and them and just get in it together and like go on some bike rides. I don't know. This gentleman really wants to ask a question. I know. I've been very concerned with the problem I've had biking and bike planes that have been blocked by cargo vans. I don't know how many people have had that problem. Cargo vans, yeah. Cargo vans. And I think that local government should be working to legislate the laws to...