 Well, good afternoon, good morning for some who are still in jet lag. We've already discussed the Middle East twice. Yesterday, with his Royal Highness, Prince Turkey Al-Faisal, and at lunch with the debate between Jonai and Richard Haas. But we are returning to it this afternoon because of its, I would say, tragic centrality. If there were three words that characterize the new, new Middle East, I would say they are the following, fragmentation with the risk of territorial explosion, which are already taking place in front of our eyes, radicalization with its particularly sad religious connotation, spreading all over and starting in Jerusalem, one would say, in symbolic terms. And probably the third term would be the expansion in geographic terms, as if the Middle East was no longer a geographic expression, but nearly a state of mind or an emotional reality with young people from Europe to the United States converting to a certain radical vision of Islam joining the fight in the Middle East under the impression that to kill means to exist, to become a martyr gives them a sense of identity. Beyond those three words, it seems to me that there are three key questions with which we should be dealing with. The first one is clearly, how do you contain, repel, eventually destroy what I will call from no one, fash, which an expression which I like very much, all the more so that I don't know exactly what it means, but it sounds well and it serves a clear purpose to delegitimize this challenge of an awful nature. Within the issue of fighting fash, there is a subtopic, which is, what do we do in Syria? There seems to be a consensus, at least in London and Washington, that family change is the right alternative to regime change, but is that realistic? Given the competitive ambivalence on the subject of Syria, of so many countries, one in particular, which is not represented in this panel, Turkey, what is the priority of Turkey? To fight fash or to contain Kurdish nationalism, and during the time of the siege of Kobani, we could have hesitation on the topic. The second key subject, of course, is the Middle East core conflict, the Israeli-Palestinian problem. When we speak of a two-state solution, are we paying lip service to an ideal? Are we really striving for an achievable goal? Or is it too late, given the radicalization of internal politics on both sides, given Hamas, given the movement to the right of Israeli politics, given also the weakness of American pressures and influence, in particular on that topic? The third question, of course, is the issue of Iran. Have we overestimated the political influence of the moderate? Have we been again in a field of illusion? I think looking at the Middle East, and in particular at the Arab-Israeli conflict, we can have two approaches. One would be following a Jewish tradition, a word called tikkun olan, which means to repair the world. The world has been broken. It is our responsibility to repair it. And there's no place better to start repairing it than in the Middle East. But there's also another tradition, which is to look at it as a Greek drama, a Greek tragedy, where the gods have decided to punish the man for their impudence and arrogance. And in fact, we are always hesitating between these two approaches, the wish to act upon the reality or the despair leading to cynicism and passivity. Well, to deal with those issues of the Middle East today, we have five excellent speakers representing different approaches and position. The first one will address us in French, and it is Hubert Védrine, former French Foreign Minister, and one of the best analysts of world politics. Hubert, it's all yours. Thank you. So I will speak in French. Everybody has its machine. I will make seven observations, but they are very brief. In eight minutes. That's it. First of all, it's not because we are in a terrible situation that we must forget that turbulence is the problem in the Middle East for 50, 70 years, or even for a century. So let's not solve it here as if there were extremely serious problems in the Middle East. It's not the case. You have to look at the historical vision. Secondly, you have to have a background canvas in my internal opinion of Islam. First of all, what seems to me to be a historical struggle in a very small fundamentalist minority, extremist, and a very small modernist minority for the decisive influence. It colors everything. And in addition, what everyone has in mind now and who has woken up, that is to say the Sunni antagonism, who has woken up because there have been desegregation processes. But it's still an element of background canvas which is very important and which engraves each of the other questions. Thirdly, we are witnessing a process of destructive destruction. We can hope that these creators, but we are witnessing rather the destruction phase. It's spectacular in the case of Syria, which is a kind of tragic caricature of what we called the Arab Spring with a lot of naivety. But it's also the case in the situation of Iraq with a process that goes back at least to 2003, perhaps also to the mistakes of Saddam Hussein before. So these are two particular cases that create the desegregation of old static structures that we know goes back to the end of the empire and especially to Saïq Spicot, which creates the terrain, the availability on which Daesh developed. But it wouldn't have happened if there hadn't been a series of errors accumulated that provided troops for this movement. Then there is the particularity that it's a terrorist movement that wants to sedentary itself. So here we enter into another scenario. So we have a framework of destruction, so maybe it will come out something, we don't know yet what. And the Kurdish element, let's talk about Kurdistan, the Kurdish element, so far will go for the Kurds the opportunity, autonomy. Yes, if the Kurds are trained by this conjunction until the idea of independence, and obviously they will recreate a coalition against them. And they will be able to keep the mastery of that. Fourthly, there are enormous strategic uncertainties that are added to that. The first one is in American politics. What will become American politics in this region and on each of the subjects? Of course, we think of Iran. In my opinion, it's very different depending on whether there is an agreement with Iran or not. If there is no agreement with Iran, the situation is not neutral because the different actors will draw lessons from the absence of agreement. And there may be reactions to that. If there is an agreement with Iran, it is a considerable redistribution of the cards that will go pretty fast, in my opinion, and obviously it raises questions to the other rational partners of the game to start with the Saudi Arabia. It is very important to know how the Arabia anticipates the possible agreement and the dynamics that take place to manage that. There are other strategic uncertainties. The first one that you mentioned here is the one in Turkish politics that has at least two games, maybe a triple game in reality. We can see that its real priority is to prevent the Kurdistan, independent and wide, but there are other objectives that are added and that contradict. Another strategic uncertainty is the evolution in Israel. The internal dynamics, in Israeli internal policy, especially as there is this mode of scrutiny in Israel, will it go until the end all the solutions are closed, whatever it is, or not. What will Israel become in this context? I will add a question. Can we imagine if the Kremlin was, at some point, surpassed, is there a possibility of returning a Russian game to the Iranian question, to the Syrian question, to the Kurdish question? It's not immediate, it's not urgent, but it's in the tableau. The fifth remark, perhaps the most difficult one, is the lack of power. Because we can talk about American politics, we can talk about everything we want, but the lack of common power is striking. Exterior powers are like vulcanologists who analyze volcanic eruptions, who analyze the cemeteries, who go back down. Where are the levers? Where are the political, military, economic levers? Where is the will to intervene? Are the powers internal capacity, in terms of public opinion, a political system to intervene in sustainable policies? The question is asked more and more, in any case, for democracy. Tocqueville was right. It's more and more difficult for democracy to have an internal policy, excuse me, to have an external policy from the moment they are conditioned by the internal policy. When it comes to the European Union, I don't even talk about it. The sixth remark, from this point on, there are real risks in the approach, in the approach that are not entirely controlled by anyone. When we take the question of Daesh, we see that Daesh can be targeted, targeted, by various military actions, but not eradicated. If the coalition really wanted to eradicate it, it would have to be imposed in Syria and Iraq, a credible and sustainable political solution. But at this time, you have complete contradictions. What do we do with Iran, what do we do with the Syrian regime? This is the most striking, we see the limits of an external action even more clearly on this point. The seventh remark, and I would have finished it because it's to start, all the forum created by Thierry de Montbryal turns around the idea of better governance. What does it mean, better governance? Can we imagine that we can adjust correctly the agreement with Iran, that it is not worrying for the neighbors, to set up a close-oriented solution, all that seems utopian. And the question is, can we dream for the Middle East one day of the equivalent of what the Vesfali agreements were in Europe? Thanks to Richelieu and Mazarin, I mean, in order to organize the cohabitation between different political regimes and different religious beliefs. A sustainable cohabitation, founded on non-injury. Is it conceivable one day? We can see that when we try to reason in terms of better governance, or by taking into account the Taikun formula, we can see that the objective is very, very far away. So I think we will rather reason step by step. That's all. Thank you very much. The second speaker is going to be Ribal Al-Assad who is among many other things, the chairman of the Iman Foundation. Thank you very much, Mr. Amouzi. It's a great pleasure to be here among so many distinguished guests. Let me first start by saying that the situation we are in today, the problem that we are facing around the world, Europe, Russia, China, the United States of having the greatest menace and the greatest trade to our national security, it's not something new. We found it a bit astonishing that some people said that it took us by surprise. It hasn't taken us by surprise because we have been, I mean myself, I have worn for the past three and a half years, our organization did, that if we continue on allowing our allies in the region to promote sectarian hatred and sectarian divide, this is what's going to happen. Unfortunately, in my country, for example, let's start talking about Syria, the global mess that we are in today. In Syria, we went on backing an opposition that was mainly Islamist in nature without taking into regards that there are minorities in Syria. Everybody wanted change in Syria. Everybody wanted democratic change in Syria. Everybody wanted to live as we are living in Europe and in the West. But unfortunately, we did not want to go backward to Sharia law and such Islamist rhetoric that has been going on lately. In Iraq, same as in Syria, we have seen the Islamic State which has started in 2006, but it has came to Syria because there was a certain atmosphere that allowed it to prosper, that allowed it to grow because there was money coming in from a certain country. There was support, there was television channels who were set up and purposely to encourage and to incite sectarian hatred, violence and killing. We have been telling them you have to shut them down if we want to see people all around the Middle East live in harmony. If we want to see genuine democracies taken on in the Middle East and beyond. Some of Syria's neighbors and other regional powers who are allies including Turkey have not listened to that. Instead, they have allowed foreign fighters to come into Syria. As Mr. Vice President Biden said lately that our biggest problem in the region was our allies. Our allies did not want to listen to the United States when they said please stop supporting those extremist factions in the Middle East. This is exactly what has led to where we are today. Today there is a coalition everybody is in they're running around trying to find a solution to ISIS. I think it's going to be very difficult because first of all we're not after a brand name. The Islamic State is just a brand. We're after the underlying ideology which is the ideology of those Islamist extremists who believe in killing all those who do not share their perverted ideology. This is not genuine Islam and His Majesty, King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia said lately that this is not the true Islam. That we have to promote the true Islam and to be against fitna because fitna is the biggest sin in Islam and unfortunately nobody has listened. Unfortunately the same countries, some of them let's say a given example about Kuwait where the United States said that one of the Minister of Justice in Kuwait was backing al-Nusra, was funding al-Nusra. All what he was allowed to do it was to resign. He was not brought to justice and this is not going to make the situation better. If we are to stand for our values, we have to stand for our values everywhere. We have to stand firmly and strongly for our values. We have to support the values of human rights, democracy and human rights everywhere. We want people to believe in the West's values which are not actually Western values, they are universal values and the problem today we cannot lie or be hypocritical about it because there are as you know satellite television, there are alternative media and the people are able to see what's going on. They are able to see that they are on one side we are promoting democracy and freedom in one country and on the other side we are forgetting about other countries who are supposed to be our allies. So how could that happen? If we are to be for democracy and freedom as I said we have to be for it and fight for it everywhere. And on the question of Turkey yesterday I heard his Royal Highness speaking about Turkey and Turkey could have a solution. I don't think that Turkey could have a solution because let me first speak as a Syrian and then as an Arab. As a Syrian, Turkey as much as you know as Israel or Iran are countries who are occupiers for Syrians. We learned that in our school books I mean in the curriculum that Turkey occupies a great part of Syrian territory which is much larger than the Golan Heights actually. As same as Iran who occupies Ahwas and you know as you know Israel the Golan Heights. So there cannot be a difference between an occupier and another occupier. Not because one is from that religion or the other an occupier is the same. And we have to treat them in the same way. Also Turkey under Mr. Prime Minister President Erdogan has had a creeping policy of Islamization. They have backed as we have seen the Muslim Brotherhood. They have backed them in Egypt. They have backed them in Syria. And they have backed other factions such as Al-Nusra and we lately saw in the town of Kobani that they found themselves in a very difficult situation. It was either they defend the Kurds and they would find themselves into conflict with those IS Islamic State or Al-Nusra and other similar groups which they have helped and supported to infiltrate into Syria or they would fight or they would fight the Kurds or they would allow for the Islamic State to attack the Kurds and they would have had problem with over 20 million Kurds in Turkey. We have seen that an attack came on the Kurds from Kobani from inside Turkey from the Islamic State which shows again that Turkey has been backing strongly those Islamic groups and Turkey needs to change. If these are our allies they have to understand that the word has changed. If they are allies they have to support our values. If they are allies they cannot be sponsoring terrorism. This is the most important thing. How could you differentiate between countries who sponsor terrorism? When you talk about Iran and then you allow countries for example as Turkey and as I told you many people including as I said Vice President Biden and others have pointed the finger at countries that are allies in the region who have been supporting terrorism. Unfortunately if this does not change we are going to find ourselves as the former deputy of the CIA said Mr. Michael Morrell before he left a year ago he said that today those Islamist groups in Syria he said that not this August the August before that have become the greatest threat to our national security greater than the threat of Iran and North Korea which people should have understood in the region that means we should start talking to Iran because if they are greatest threat it's not only those groups on the ground who is backing them, who is supporting them who is funding them who is inciting on this religion on this sectarian divide. Unfortunately when we had someone like Sheikh Yusuf Al-Qaradawi who incited last year on killing he said I'm calling on all Sunnis to go and kill Shias and Alawites in the Middle East and all Sunnis who could carry an arm should go do that. Well this is not exactly calling a democratic change in Syria or Iraq or any other country unfortunately we have the Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia who came out and welcomed Mr. Karadawi's speech. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. The third speaker is going to be Mayor Shetrit an old friend of the WPC seasoned and experienced Israeli political figure member of the Knesset for a very long number of years who has occupied many ministerial functions. Mayor Shetrit. Thank you. Good afternoon. I'm glad to be here and I think the issue is very very important and very interesting to listen to all my colleagues everyone of them is an excellent possibility really to change views. Matter of fact the Middle East is quite in chaos. We have many countries without any connection to Israel that are going apart Syria, Libya Iraq, Yemen what's going on there, it's really unbelievable. One is one who follows what's going on in those countries so it takes Syria for example or any other places. There are a lot of terror organizations working over there active over there everybody of them want peace peace of Syria. There are in Syria alone almost more than 10 different organizations including Ansar Betel-Mikdash and Lusra, ISIS Qaeda, Hezbollah everybody work for his own target everybody his own plane about Syria and Israel can do nothing except of opening a hospital on the border with Goron Heights and receive all those who have been injured in different doesn't matter where which side they came from they can get treatment in this hospital and those who are in bed injured are brought to Israel to hospitals who have in Israel today 300 families, 300 people from Syria are treated in the Israeli hospitals and they bring the family coming with them and they very very wonder to find a different Israel than the image they had before. Yesterday I listened yesterday to Prince Prince Turki, we speak I like the way he spoke I like his sincerity and his frankness yesterday that Iran is very involved in all the activity of all those terror organization and if somebody have to testify it, I can be very good testifying for that personally Israel have a possibility in which Iran have two big arms one in our north and one in our south Hezbollah in the north in Lebanon and Hamas in the south in Gaza both financed, trained armed by Iran with very very heavy arming many times we stop ships which coming from Iran toward Gaza or other convoys of weapon which goes from Iran through Syria to Lebanon it doesn't matter what the United Nations make decision over there, it doesn't matter Unifil, Hezbollah today have more than 100,000 different missiles more accurate, much more long range much more heavy threatening Israel same situation was in Gaza as well so we are living in very difficult neighborhood and what makes me wonder in the fact that in this situation today we find ourselves as Israelis fighting together with many of the radical of the Islam countries against the radical Islam at last many countries stood that Israel was studying alone in the front of fighting terror and now we are fighting together against the radical Islam you see even Iran have some of his fight with the ISIS but many other countries understand now that terror is a threat not only to Israel but to each and every one of them and in this situation it could be a very good opportunity to have arrangement or peace with all those Arab states if we didn't have the problem which is the main obstacle is the Palestinian Authority and the Palestinian state I disagree with my colleagues who spoke at lunch today they say it's impossible to come to a solution I totally reject it I believe that we have no other chance or no other choice but to establish to come to a solution and to establish a Palestinian state alongside with Israel the Taniyahu saying it the Taniyahu today in his party is considered to be leftist he said it in the Knesset many times that he's for solution of two states to people the problem is that he's better talker than better doer and I think that the situation in which we are we have no other alternative and that's the reason why I personally believe that the only way to do it is through the Arab initiative and again I come to the speech yesterday of Prince Al-Faisal and I agree almost with every word he said about it why I support and I support it not today today it's a retrospective it's not a big wisdom I support it from the first day to come to the world in 2002 I tried that time to convince to give up the disengagement from Gaza and call Riyadh and ask we and tell them we accept your initiative let's talk about it I'm glad to hear Prince Turkey spoke on the last year in Monaco and yesterday again they said we are open to talk we're willing to talk and really I think Saudi which made this initiative came with a very my opinion genius way how to solve the problem they're not offering only a peace with the Palestinians they say if you go back to 1967 with the swap in my opinion there was no Arab leader in the Arab League which believes that Israel could go literally to 67 borders but all of them in my opinion will agree to swap I said it in 2002 and I'm glad that it became true and the second thing they said you find the agreeable justify solution to the Palestinian refugees according from the Arab initiative and agreeable means that Israel had to agree which means again we don't believe that there is any Arab leader which believes that Israel will accept Arab refugees or Palestinian refugees into the green line of Israel but we have no problem they will come to live in the Palestinian states if they want to and be compensated so and why I supported so much with the Arab community why I think it's the best solution because why to make peace why to pay the same price anyway just for peace with Palestinians if we can have the same price peace with 57 Islam countries and full normalization and that will be the end of the conflict again I'm quoting from the Arab initiative secondly, this is the only way to guarantee the existence of that peace because if we have a peace and normalization with all the Islam and Arabic state who will break it nobody will break it in that situation that also the way to bring the Hamas again under the authority of the Palestinian authority why because they cannot stay alone if they stay alone and don't give them about all the Arab countries and Islam countries we will threaten them like an enemy so from all those reasons this is the best way to go and I believe that it could be done only if Prime Minister of Israel will raise the glove and call Riyadh and say let's talk about this initiative that's what I believe that's what I would do and I believe that we can arrive to peace with all the Arab states within the year one year if there is a will I'm sorry to say that our partners are not easy partners Palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity Arafat missed the opportunity with Barack and Clinton Abu Mazen missed the opportunity with Ormard with signed agreement with him he asked for a few days to never come back I'm going to finish just one more minute and I'm going to close the area and they're also creating a very big obstacles on the way sometimes I have the feeling that maybe the Palestinians don't want really to be a state for them it's a bad situation they don't have to bear the responsibility going into the state today they are in the center of the eye of the world we are considered to be the bad guys even it's not true of Israel and all the rumors are not really rumors and I again I listen yesterday to Prince Talal we said that the minister of housing in Washington said that maybe we don't need our Palestinians there maybe we should annex the area you know he represents in the maximum three members of the Knesset he's the very very right wing of the political rainbow in Israel it's like the Hamas say he want to wipe Israel Iran say they want to wipe Israel we have no intention to go anywhere we are there to stay and the Palestinians are there to stay I believe that these talks should be done between us and Arab world thank you very much should be done one more one more minute I'm sorry it could be done should be done on personal level on the way that we understand we have to understand the Arab culture now we have to do it with respect we have to create trust between the sides otherwise we arrive nowhere and I'm sorry to say that Americans which taking the responsibility to mediate between Israel and Palestinians understand nothing in Arabs they're doing all the possible mistakes everywhere and sometimes creating damages the last agreement with with John Kerry he was talking one way to the Palestinians and another way to the Israelis without talking to each other I asked in the Knesset how can you make peace with someone you don't meet Netanyahu never met Abu Mazen during all the process I don't believe it's possible to make peace with anyone without meeting him I believe that to make peace with someone I have to know him very easy very way very warmly very close and that could be done in our area therefore I believe this is I should negotiate by itself and invite United States and Russia and Europe to be participate and support the process but we should do it ourself and I believe that could be done now last but not least we are in election now because of that reason Netanyahu decided to spread up the Knesset we're going to election and we are trying now to create a front of central left parties in order to replace this right-wing government if that will happen it will be a total change in the attitude and I hope it will happen thank you thank you the fourth speaker is Sergei Karaganov honorary chairman of the Presidium of the non-governmental council on foreign and defense policy of Russia and a very old friend of mine Sergei you have the floor thank you very much first of all Russians are known to be brutal and straightforward and short yes and I must say that everybody and and Cecilia and that means that nobody have said that before but I want to start with the words of admiration towards Haiti he manages it again it's impossible but he is managing it again thank you now I'm going back to the subject and the subject is I look at it from a different angle about 13 years ago a group of eminent former senior intelligence officers came to my office and it was it happened after NATO started a land invasion into Afghanistan most of them were Afghan veterans and I said and I said they told me professor Karaganov was Sergei could you please explain explain why are they preparing a foothold to attack Iran that's the only explanation I brought them to the map of course and I saw that it's impossible to attack Iran from Afghanistan and I tried to explain them that it was simply incompetence and I must say that judging that looking at the the policy of my country and the policy of my of the most of the Western countries towards that era during all these years I must say that we have contributed to the deterioration of the situation immensely it was a combination of impotent incompetence or incompetent impotence so when communists went there well let's put it this way I mean the situation is much worse than it was 100 years ago when when the Muslim Empire collapsed then for the time being I mean it was divided into subcolonies and then everybody started to compete with everybody Americans threw away Brits and the French but was whether the situation got better not then Russia and Soviets run in and of course I mean they started to compete with everybody else propping up their so-called allies and imposing their socials or our whatever whatever they were not my a communist and social idea and socialist ideas on the population of course it's big backfired message was absolutely masochist policy towards former Soviet Union because I mean the more we impose socialism on them the more money they demanded from us but finally we collapsed also because by the way we Soviet Union was the biggest donor of aid including to the countries of the Middle East it was the biggest aid donor in the world and now we're having the same kind of policies which are being conducted by our western friends and colleagues I mean when countries are seriously imposing or trying to impose democracy it's again a masochism I mean the more democratic these countries are the more anti-western they are so this we have to acknowledge that this group of countries or this area or there is going through a difficult civilizational process which implies at this juncture a deterioration and we have to deal with it with open eyes so what could we do we could sit we should not interfere be with the democracy or with the rule of law with everything let people of this huge area decide for themselves develop what could be my direct advice I mean even at a panel like here we are advising ourselves how to interfere I mean the more we interfere the worse it is for the peoples of this area so what could be the stop stop exporting democracy or social whatever stop by the way and stop ostracizing Iraq you I'm sorry Israel Israel it is only play the only beacon of stability there and we see more and more of ostracizing of Israel of Israel I mean it's I'm not too sweet because it's the other part of it I mean the other beacon of stability in that area which we should at least not undermine is of course Iran it is a most civilized and the most sophisticated country in the area instead of that we have been for almost 30 years undermining Iran which could have been by the way there the island of stability in the area what could we I mean if you want if you want I mean a positive advice what could be done go to Russians we do we did achieve two operations which were largely successful in area like that but it is it was Tajikistan and Chechnya but it was very on the margins and it is only Russians which could do that because we are able to sacrifice indiscriminately our lives and and treasure other than that I mean do not interfere so help where you can mostly in humanitarian ways close borders to terrorists help those areas with the dust with developmental aid which are close to your to your borders and I'm talking now to Europeans so to curtail immigration suppress the negative elements in your own societies under or else I mean they will suppress you and I'm speaking about the growing radicalization of the immigration which you have committed then and then I mean then wait and maybe in 50 years things will get it better but if we get if we continue to involve ourselves with incompetent impotence or impotent incompetence we are sure to make things worse the only thing we could do useful there are several things one is educate these people I mean some of these people so because the more there are well educated the better it is especially with the higher education and then understand that we are unable to do much thank you thank you very much sir gay last but not least Miguel Angel Moratinos former minister of foreign affairs of Spain if there is peace one day in the Middle East historians will pay tribute to a man who worked passionately for the cause of peace in the last decade Miguel thank you Dominique historian will pay tribute if we succeed no but unfortunately if there is peace that's what I said we are full of frustration also thank you for a theory and organizing to give us the opportunity to continue to debate the Middle East issue I think ambassador who the Chinese ambassador yesterday started his interventions and there was four main issues in the global governance and the first one was the Middle East and we when we are trying to really identify the new reality of the Middle East in this kind of new global world new words like global smart green we are becoming familiar there are two concepts that have to be applied to the Middle East that is complexity and uncertainty and that make me think about the famous quotation of President Charles de Gaulle when he started his first visit to the Middle East he say je pars au levant complex avec des idées simple and what is going on is that we are trying to solve the Middle East with simple ideas maybe we have to come with complex ideas so I have a hover not so much time but I think the Middle East deserve all this time because he's the quintessence of the new challenging world were all traditional security concern territorial military intervention all energy trade converge to the new challenge of today's world that is global security water scarcity cultural device and that's what we are so much engaged what we are so much you know preoccupied what is going on so my second reflection is that what to do well there's this kind of international fatigue everybody's fed up about the Middle East and everybody's more fed up about the Palestinian Israel issue no way it's a kind of utopia the ones who believe in future peace is because we we are considered like idealist no people who can still try to make peace in this region and we should to answer I mean the partners the parties Arabs Israelis Iranian Turkey but the so-called West European and Americans we should ask ourselves what's have to be done let's continue business as usual that mean what happened during the last four years that what I can't qualify is the drone diplomacy is the drone military action and in the Middle East the drone diplomacy yes mr. Kerry try his best with all methods and all approach but there is no strategy I don't think we have to interfere my dear friend but I think we should have an strategy can we ask what is the US strategy in the Middle East maybe they have one I have some doubts about the European strategy should we have an strategy not to be all the time in a defensive way started with Syria then later on we come with fresh then we come with how we are going to stabilize Iraq on all on the defensive and the naughty guys the worst of the worst that's a Prince Faisal say they are advancing look what was the Middle East 10 years ago or even five years ago and how is today worst and worst so my dear friend we have to do something not to interfere but we have to do something in order to stop and to really try to make a better future for the reason of all of us so I have to to main proposal number one as his highness Prince Faisal say number one priority my dear mayor Israeli-Palestinian issue it's not because I been involved in the Palestinian issue for many years it's because it's the core heart of the stability of the Middle East and one of the reason of this stabilization of fanaticism of radicalism is because the people in the region they will not continue to accept this double standard at this sense of frustration of not having the two-state solution to be a reality so how we are going to move for the two-state solution because we all agree about the two-state solution it has been even approved in the Security Council but my dear Israeli friend and my dear American friend and some Europeans are afraid to recognize the Palestinian state they said we will recognize only after negotiation my dear mayor when Ben Gurion the 14th of May 1948 have the courage the vision to decide to create the state of Israel and wrote a letter to the UN you negotiated with Palestinians to have your estate so why we make the state of hood of Palestinian a condition for negotiation but that is the logical but we are in the Middle East and everything is logical so okay let's go to the logical let's go to negotiate with Israel but Israel has not been ready to negotiate the last years so glad international community at least European Union my dear bear for once taking initiative and I think this movement of recognition of Palestinian state should be not just for the sake of recognition have to be a diplomatic instrument have to be an instrument that will mobilize the US that could later on negotiate with the parties and the Europeans to push with the Arab peace initiative the double recognition process as I call to recognize Israel by the Islamic and Arab countries and Israel and the Europeans and the American to recognize the Palestinian state if we put a framework and we put a deadline my dear mayor if you win the election maybe that will not be necessary but imagine that Netanyahu and since coalition won the election what we are going to do to say no more hope no we have to make some pressure so we put in two years or one year a half if nothing happened there is no serious negotiation we international community they have say to a state solution we've recognized the Palestinian state why not will be two entities negotiate in the dispute the differences at the level of state not a level of our entity and an estate so that should be the first priority the second yeah very short for your second priority is about Iran I think has been a big misunderstanding about Iran we all agree that is our adversary or whatever you want to do with them the one who are complicating our life well in the most difficult time of the Cold War but United States and the Soviet Union decide to engage so my vision is that to be during the last 10 years trying to get only nuclear negotiation with Iran is a big mistake because in the meantime you say may we have Iran in Gaza we have Iran in Lebanon we have Iran in Iraq we have Iran in France we have Iran everywhere so we don't get any commitment on nuclear ability and we have Iran everywhere so let's put some containment and some engagement with Iranian in a much broader sense so I'm not say that they should not continue negotiation in the nuclear issue but only to focus on nuclear issue that will give Iran the capacity as it has happening to expand their influence and the role in the whole region thank you very much Miguel well food for thought let me start with the observation made by Uber Vedrin in his presentation what is the meaning of better governance in the Middle East 60 years ago Egypt was on the eve of a revolution but in a much better state than South Korea which was coming out of a war and the last 60 years I've seen an extremely different transformation of Asia on the one end and of the Middle East on the other there was miracle in Asia there was to say the least no miracle in the Middle East why is it so I think to a large extent it is a question of governance and not only of international context not only of other consideration the Arab Spring whatever that means was based on the frustration of some significant segment of the population towards not necessarily the in existence of democracy but the absence of the rule of law and the betrayal of what is called human right policies so somewhere this is a question that has to be addressed when you rightly denounced the radicalization the fanaticism of dash fire there is also what is called state terror it has been said yesterday by the prince that the majority of the 200,000 people that died in Syria had been killed by their own regime I will not enter into figures but this is part of the reality of the region which we must face so somewhere I would say that better governance in the Middle East means the same thing than better governance in Asia or better governance in Africa I'm not calling for the imposition of Western democratic models unto the region but I'm calling for the simple existence of what people describe as the rule of law because I believe it's very important second point because I want to challenge Sergei I agree fully maybe with your vision that the last thing we should do is to interfere in the region but I'm not sure Russia has applied that policy to itself I see great involvement of Russia in the region for a very long period of time so are you speaking as an intellectual denouncing your country as well as the rest that's fine I mean you are an independent speaker but it seems to me that it should be applied to your country as well as to the other when it comes to a mayor I feel terribly close to what you say but are you very representative of society yes of the political body not necessarily and if you are you have to prove by making an alliance of the moderate that you can make a difference and unfortunately the moderate in power did not necessarily make a difference in the past you could say that repeat that formula the Palestinian never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity but I think the reality to use the word of Miguel is more complex than that simply so I think we have a lot of of question to raise if we want to be true to ourselves and to the audience Sergei first of all I mean thank you I applied it fully to of course to my formal countries of it union Russia is less involved now but if we were involved I will condemn that of course what I am say what I have been saying and I would want to rate rate didn't hear I would disagree with you Dominic a little bit you said it's about question of governance I'm saying it's a question of culture it's much deeper than governance I think that the I mean fantastic Muslim Arab civilization is living through a difficult period European civilization lived through a difficult period six from six to 11 12 centuries before producing fantastic results now we have the same happening to their Arab Muslim civilization and I mean if we interfere it wouldn't help it would only deteriorate things because that would create and that is creating I mean hatred towards outside world and excuse for the for themselves not to do things so and I must say that the more we are a look for the better it is for the people because of course it wouldn't take six centuries like in Europe to recuperate this time I hope thank you mayor yeah I would like to ask you a question I think first they will be very close to agreement in the past therefore I say the missed opportunity or murder the prime minister I was a member of the his government his cabinet he signed an agreement with the woman in his home and I wasn't asked for a few days more we never come an agreement that wasn't accepted which mean he suggested almost everything possible to suggest 95% of West Bank something like 4% of swap all disaster is Jerusalem and he refused so we have a problem is in Israeli is because usually when there is a clash between rational people and people who don't take it rationally you speak to the Russian on all ways not to those who are not nobody tried to speak to dash today and matter of fact I'm I'm sorry to say that I don't understand the world dash is maybe a group of 15 17,000 people I think it was world was serious about really really taking care of dash is Syria would you don't touch them at all they can really kill their own sources of money they can in one of few attacks they can kill all the sources of money that they taking oil oil oil fraction from Syria and selling the oil in 50% to different countries that's crazy to leave such an organization to be a threat and to put fear in the hearts of people they're not that big but the world is very hesitating to be to interferes yes you should interfere there are places in which you cannot stay aside so we're doing nothing I think the world should be interfered and if you're asking me yesterday Terry Monterrey said that he wants some provocation questions so I have one I think that we should making an ice break look we had peace with Egypt and thanks God we have that peace since 1979 no soldiers both sides no one soldier dead on the borders we have peace with Jordan and we live with them a lot very nicely I expect I wish that we can make peace with Saudi with Arab Saudi first because for Saudi or some peace with Israel it will a big sign that there will be really part that would that they could be our big bear behind us Prince Talal and they could be the one who can call together all the Arab states and move the process because nobody have any doubt that the solution would be establishing a Palestinian state on the side by side with Israel yesterday Prince Talal said and he's quite right I believe in it will owe me heart that with the Jewish mind and our money we can change the world it's true when you think about the fact that today in the Middle East there is purchase of weapon every year in the amount of something like two hundred billion dollars think what we can do with that money for the benefit of people for food for housing for health for different places Israel has a very good economy we in Israel at least we have a good economy we have a strong army we're not afraid we'd not never ask anybody to fight for us but we would like to live peacefully 75% of the Israeli people and 75% of the Palestinian people are supporting peace and supporting two states of the people according to the post done in Israel the problem is not the people the problem is leadership and leadership still I'm sorry to say they don't take any decision I hope and that's what I'm doing in my life I push all the time to be in the parties and to push this idea ahead that there will be a government which will make the decision and I believe my friend Moratino's it's not matter if you negotiate to note if there is a will Arafat used to say it all the time I met with him many times he always used to say if there is a will there is a way which means if somebody will make a decision to make peace suppose that Netanyahu will answer about Muslim the United Nations said I wasn't asked borders of 67 around 67 borders with a swap and he want to be have a capital in each past with Jerusalem suppose Internet would come up in the United Nations said you know what I accept let's make now a decision and we let's discuss the borders will be the borders pass here pass here who cares do really think that any Palestinian care where the border will pass or an Israeli care really where the border will pass we would like to be boring state no news nothing would like to live you know everybody is tired from us you're right even us we tired from ourselves Jews and Palestinians way we'd like really to live in peace in our families I'm sorry to say every family in Israel lost their child in wars so many since Israel established we'd like really to live like everybody else in the world without worrying what going to happen tomorrow today we are always in stress while you have an apropos Iran which I didn't answer before we cannot allow a situation that Iran will have a nuclear weapon and I think the Dominican should not allow it not because of Israel because if they allow it it will change the Middle East totally Iran is a danger to the world if Iran will have a nuclear weapon and they try to maneuver all the world if they have a nuclear weapon it will not long it will not belong before you find a nuclear weapon in the hands of terrorists so think about it otherwise nobody can explain why Iran is developing missiles for 3,000 kilometers you rival covering all Europe what for to Israel it's much less you don't need three thousand three thousand kilometers so we have to take care of it and I think that world they cannot stay aside they said nothing happening when Ahmadini judge said in the United Nations said we should wipe Israel off the map that's crazy so we have to take him seriously people say don't take it seriously yes we are taking it seriously we cannot ignore it we have to protect our existence they will not give up we are not going to give up and ever because I believe we hope that it will be diplomatic solution and you know the problematic say that the war is a failure of diplomatic efforts and I believe that I believe in diplomatic solution I wish there will be the I think we understood that I will give the floor out of democracy to Miguel who has asked it and to be there well about not interference I think I mean I understand your point but I mean is how we are going to accept that 100 100 thousand and thousands of civilians are killed we don't interfere we don't intervene I mean we haven't you and lately there has not been too many good things from you and but one thing was a responsibility to protect so sometime we have to interfere yes you have to interfere if you want to make people survive and you have to interfere because the party are asking to interfere to make peace in the Middle East in the between Palestinian Israelis I mean it depends if you have we will have a long discussion about interference of course bad interference that produced bad results nobody wants that but it could be a good interference number one number two I'm the two stay solution I think and Iran we come to the conclusion everybody agree and everybody will be happy made I fully agree with you and with Prince why this Arab peace initiative is not implemented why you have not been ready to the best guarantee for the future of Israel is to have a full diplomatic and relation with all other world it's much better than the American support and guarantee I can assure you so the only thing you have to do is to find a solution with the Palestinian in your way and we international community we have to accompany your final discussion everything we know by heart I know what you told me about all men I know and I and I and I support your your position because I know how was the negotiation so what it's made now is finally to go to this final political decision to negotiate and can be done and then you will have a much better reaction instead of fighting terror alone instead of fighting the coalition alone we'll fight all together and that we protect the future of the two-state solution in the region you bear what is the question no I wanted a solution for you I I didn't want a question I wanted an answer and what no no I thought you raised your hand to have a rep after democracy it's on the next year it's on the bottom I extended I extended your question on the best governance you agree or not with the fact that the best governance you have to apply in the same way in all parts of the world because the same things are asked by the citizens where they live in a fundamental way when I talked about better governance in the exposition to have it is the general theme of the forum of the conference I talked about it in a regional way in fact it is the utopian hope to see one day the different powers of the agreement agreed on a more rational and reasonable management of differences and disagreements it's a utopia you when we talked about the internal plan and I agree all the people of the world aspire to be better governed in a more honest way than the right of man to be respected but I don't think that all the people of the world want to copy Western democracy first of all what it doesn't work very well it is tired we see it as a sign of the level of abstention the level of contestation in the name of direct democracy and in the United States the envy of money in democracy which has become a real disease no matter what so I think that the people all over the world including in the Arab world aspire to that but they don't want to be made by the lack of management I think that the Western management is at the end of the wheel in French at the end of the wheel in fact we can support we can encourage we can salute but we can't replace the internal movement of people that's on the right of man but when we come back to the question which we talked about in particular the question of the blockage on the close to nothing it is obvious that we will never end if there is not a positive coalition to help the Israelis get out of jail we can see that a lot of great figures of great writers of great Israeli intellectuals say help us help us get out of jail and the trap I mentioned earlier among others is the electoral system of the Israeli it is impossible in Israel even if there is a virtual peace camp which is both courageous and majority but which is not organized politically which has no party which has no leader it is impossible for a government which he wants to make courageous decisions because he still needs small parties nationalist or extremist religious so it can only be a coalition of Israeli friends to start by the United States who would help the Israelis who want to get out of jail after it would be necessary to manage a kind of Palestinian chaos which would last a certain time that we have created voluntarily but which will last a certain time but every time we answer our questions we see that we put forward already great goals almost impossible to reach we do not have to be discouraged for example in the matter of the I found very well that the assemblies of the European Parliament have double text on Palestine but we know very well that it does not have practical consequences I found very well that France speaks of a conference but it takes a process it's not a conference like that so we will talk about the conference with the future Israeli government who will be even worse than that one it seems lost except if we talk to Israel except if we talk to the people at the Pidion so I think there are springs that have not been exploited so far there is a lot of personality in Israel who wants to go in this sense there are a lot of people in the world of Muslims Arab Muslims who want to fight fighting extremism and terrorism who want to fight the interpretation madness of Islam so it's enormous forces that get up and who are levies that must not be neglected must not be reasoned only in terms of government yes but the negative forces have a passionate will to destroy whatever process whereas the the peaceful forces the moderate forces are for the moment divided and hesitant and peace will come as a sacrifice for both parts and that sacrifice must appeared as justified because clearly the alternative is suicidal or you have some part of confidence in the fact that the sacrifice you make will be followed by substantial and long-term reward and for the moment you have not found the key to unlock that difficult and tangle negative process we have a little less than 25 minutes so the debate is open I see the disturbing factor I have a small observation a comment and two questions that are not provoking the observation is that we have said and I believe that the conflicts and the wars in the name of God never end because God is not there to strangle that is the first observation the second the questions are the next to mr. Mayor what do you think of the project of a Jewish state in the condition to accept two states in Palestine and in Israel that's the first question the second question a mature asset you are president of an association of liberty where was the liberty before 2015 in Syria 2011 in Syria thank you shall we take another question and then you answer please it was a fascinating discussion on the Middle East and it was touched upon yesterday and and in some of the other panels but but the one place that we simply haven't mentioned which is a place very close to to the part of the world where I come from which is the Balkans of southern Europe is Libya and that's a place which is and hardly a good shape and there is an element of responsibility when it comes to international community as to what led to the situation that we have right now in that country with vast repercussions for stability of wider African region and and the greater Middle East so there is very very little interest in the face of Fahash in the face of the more imminent threats and challenges but we talked about a number of things that we might try and Israeli-Palestinian issue was one and there is going to be a or there's not going to be a deal with Iran that would be transformational for better or for worse but this place is in clear need of assistance and support as I said there was an element of external responsibility for the situation that we have right now there was an acquiescence for on behalf of those who have not intervened directly I'm referring to Russia so we're all kind of responsible as a as a family of nation for this for this situation there is there anything that can be done and whose leadership could it be this time not from behind but from the front so may rebel and Miguel yeah all right about to state to people I said I think all what I said in this panel was that I'm supporting it with all my heart and I'm not the only one and you know sometimes when people ask what we can do that we haven't done I'm going to say something provocative maybe but maybe time has arrived that the United States would really to be involved in solution of the state of the situation maybe they should force an agreement on both sides maybe the agreements the sides cannot negotiate and come to an agreement and maybe they can make their own plan come with it and force Israel the Palestinians say that's the agreement you have to accept it it could be a good excuse to both sides to say we have no choice neither the Israelis or the Palestinians but it better way I believe that they could at least do something more constructive call all the Arab League countries to Washington with the Palestinians and when Israelis put them together Camp David or whatever needed until they come to conclusion that would be that will change the world and I again I think that the only way to do it is really true the Arab initiative now why no one why you ask why no one pick it up and I'm telling you now again I'm discovering it I spent hours with every Prime Minister since 2002 tried to convince them to go that way and to call Riad and said we accept the initiative as a basis let's talk about it and I'm sorry to say I failed I sit with every Prime Minister since 2002 everyone and I know them personally some of them I have been minister and their governments with some not but I have a good relationship with each and including Netanyahu and I tried to put every element to explain why and I failed well I asked myself why why I'm failing why cannot they see what I'm seeing my answer is that my opinion the Israeli administration is very Prime Ministers would like very much first to satisfy the American administration and therefore they prefer to go to their direction to be lateral negotiation moderate by Americans and I said it's a big mistake as I said before Americans are not the ones who can solve the problem by negotiation it's not the way maybe I can do it by forcing it in 1956 when Israel together with France and England occupied old Sinai President of the United States given order to Israel to get out of the Ero-Bengurion at that time it took few days and we were out so I think maybe maybe they cannot overcome my friend said before maybe because of the situation political situation in Israel as far as we don't have a central left government maybe we cannot overcome the political difficulties in Israel and make a decision even if there will be Prime Minister which will agree to go that way so maybe time will come maybe to really to force it to come with agreement it will be done on a bona fide by the Americans trying to take in consideration the both sides and make an agreement said that's the way you should go and have to accept have the agreement of Russia and China and Europe and coming for the world come to those guys and guys you are drunk they will have to go to sleep thank you yes thank you very much Mr. Riad but I didn't really understand I mean you question because we all know that there was no democracy on freedom in Syria and that's why the reason that the people of Syria has risen against the government actually but their demands at the beginning we all understand that they were for freedom and genuine democracy and not something that you know not to exchange the dictatorship for a theocracy and fortunately a lot of people again in the region did not want genuine democracy to go on in Syria because that would threaten their own countries and have funded you know and send groups who do not you know who do certainly not want to see any democracies in the Middle East and certainly not in Syria we have suffered myself personally my family have suffered a lot from the regime even though there are families so I could imagine how the Syrian people have suffered also but that doesn't mean that we have to react with grudges it's not you cannot build democracy and freedom based on grudges we have to be to be able to to to build forces for a country like Syria and Lebanon as you are yourself from Lebanon we are beautiful mosaic of people in these countries and the only way to protect this beautiful mosaic is to have a genuine democracy Mr. Ibrahim said earlier that democracy is the Middle East could not you know in Europe cannot be maybe replicated in in the Middle East well maybe but it needs a process the process needs to start somewhere we cannot it's something that has to be transitional nobody said that you're going to get it tomorrow it has to be transitional peaceful if it doesn't get it's certainly not going to be built over the bodies of 200,000 people who have died and by the way 200,000 yes they were died because the regime I mean because of the regime was responsible but not because the regime killed them 80,000 percent of them were killed by the Islamist and the rebels and others who you know but and they are part of the security forces and the military so we cannot just they are not only black and white here you know there's there's no one you said 18 or 80 80,000 80,000 our members actually of the of the security forces and the military and you know minorities have suffered a lot so what about those minorities who also wanted does anyone believe that minorities in Syria want don't want democracy does anyone believe that a Christian or an Alawite or a Druze or a Shia or a Kurds doesn't want a genuine democracy in Syria of course they do but they do not want to see as you know his Royal Highness said yesterday there are video on YouTube and other social media and people are seeing what's going on are seeing that our people are killing Christian people they are killing Alawites they are killing other minorities just belong to belong for certain sects or religion they are killing Kurds they are killing whoever does not share their perverted ideology and this is the big problem and this is why we cannot let the I mean they are it's like I always say the same thing we cannot let if you two children are fighting you cannot leave them in a room and tell them well guys resolve your issues and I'll come back an hour later to you know and I see how I would go because they're gonna kill each other and this is the same thing people in the Middle East are not really they have no experience it took Europe it took the West hundreds of years to get to the democracy where we are today you know so it's gonna take also the Middle East a lot longer but we have been there the West has been there there has been also sectarian wars so we know how to you know to help them so that they don't have to go down that that road we have to help them through education investing in a lot into education because on the other side there's another torrent that's investing in Islamic extremism and they are spending a lot of money what are we doing to counter that there are billions of dollars on satellite TVs on on internet websites on social media and others you know just a month ago the information minister of Saudi Arabia minister Hoja issued a decree to you know to close down a satellite TV that was that is based in Saudi Arabia and that incites hatred killing and violence against minorities you know and unfortunately the next day he was sacked and the TV was reopened again this shows again that there is you know there's also a problem in Saudi Arabia you know the king we all know you know and we have you know to my father and I mean there's an old friendship which is Royal Highness knows very well and between him and the king and we trust in the king but unfortunately Saudi Arabia when we talk about the kingdom is also not one current there are currents in Saudi Arabia like many other countries some want to to you know to go forward some want to fight extremism some want to to put those ISIS al-Nusra is a Muslim brotherhood on the list of terror you know terrorism but on the other hand there is a very strong current who is stopping that and this is why we have to you know to come together and and as I mean when I talk as we I was raised in the west I was raised in France I was you know I've studied in the US I've studied in the UK I live you know I've been living since I was nine years old abroad so I consider myself as you know as a citizen of the world and not just as as a Syrian as we have to come together and help the people and we owe it to them because they look up to us when they are looking for when they wanted when they went into the streets and asked for democracies and freedom they were looking up to us they were looking west they were looking on you know on the lives that we have and this is what that was there is the example and we can only do that if we come together if we leave our differences aside I mean with China Russia you know the problems that they have with the US and Europe and we have to put our differences aside why because we all share one common enemy there was fascism and Nazim at one time today we have Islamism and if we don't come together to defeat it it is threatening each one of our countries you know Europe today is saying after four years they are saying now again that there is you know all those foreign fighters that are going to Syria are becoming the greatest threat to the national security you know but also there are report conflicting reports the European I say are saying there are 3,000 fighters Western fighters that went into Syria Eric Holder from the US said there are 7,000 Western fighters there's a big gap between both 7,000 it's it's very dangerous those people once they go get trained and they get you know Islamist size and and they come back to Europe what are we gonna do about them how could you stop them you know first of all you shouldn't have allowed them to go there but now how could how are we able to stop those extremes going there and you read other reports saying that the extremists the foreign extremists not Western the foreign extremist number in general is 15,000 how could they be 7,000 from the West and another 8,000 from all other Islamic country this does not make sense the number should be must be 10 times higher because of lack of education because of poverty because of all of that you know if there are 7,000 from the West there are certainly 70,000 from other countries thank you very much big well yes Libya's and a proof of what Dominique Moissier said at the beginning not the extension of the geographers Middle East of course Libya could become a new Afghanistan and is the perfect let's say a traditional my intellectual debate and political debate about good interference and lack of involvement I mean in Libya unfortunately has been a lot of bad interference and no post-conflict follow-up after the decision really to change regime in Libya and today has been just in Tunisia recently the prime minister was telling me very clearly that what they need is first no interference sending arms and weaponary into both sides and involvement in order to promote dialogue between the two sides so either we take it seriously and we help the involvement of UN and my compatriot Bernardino and others that are trying to help all we Europeans all the region but we Europeans we will have in front of us and you Afghanistan so it should be taken extremely serious thank you we have time for another last round of question thank you mr. president I'm just a chair okay chair okay mr. chair minister veteran minister Shetrit and mr. Assad spoke all of them about Turkey and therefore I would like to underline some points first of all we have the common responsibility to reverse the type of extremism sectarianism terrorism and so on and the saying of our Prophet is as you say I'm a benacum shalom peace salam peace spread salam among you salam alaikum no no in these in this case we should avoid the misuse of religion in the Middle East specially Daesh and the others concerning the Turkish policy towards the Daesh Turkish shares one thousand two hundred ninety five kilometers borders with Syria in Iraq it is not easy case any threat emanating from this geography has serious adverse effects on Turkey after the Syria crisis started Daesh acts added more fuel to this to the fire this is one point the other one the Kobani case we are fighting against the terror organization PKK since 1984 this is recognized also internationally as a terror organization now it is it is not logical to expect from Turkey to change its policy by 180 degrees it is very difficult but Turkey on the one side on the other side we have more than two million at official figures are one million five hundred refuges in Turkey and the spent amount is more than five billion dollars this is this is a big problem and therefore air operations against Daesh should continue but it is not enough a strike solar cannot eradicate extremism this is right there is a need for a more holistic and comprehensive strategy addressing the root causes and a part of the international coalition against Daesh Turkey has been emphasizing every time that the success is a wish result Turkey is wishing a success in that direction but dash has been effective thanks to the air support it receives from the from different parts this is a big problem now concerning the free free free zone dispute of course Syria is not supporting but Turkey is not supported by the under by understanding by better understanding of the terror organization and the problem is a little bit complicated and therefore we should sit down and negotiate further thank you so the last point yeah just a question there is a subject that you absolutely did not approach and which still seems to me to be in the heart not not of the Israeli-Palestinian problem but of the problem of the entire Middle East which is that of oil maybe because if there is bad governance it is largely linked to the money of oil I would still like to see your reaction to what is happening what will be the consequences of the oil conflict largely instrumentalized seems to me by Saudi Arabia I imagine it with the blessing of the United States on a certain number of countries so last question and in fact we no longer have time so I I will interrupt very quickly this debate you no longer have a microphone even we don't want to you are punished thank you very much be as quick as possible just from the perspective of Morocco what's happening in the region has serious consequences and one of the consequences and I would love to have the comments of the panel on that is that the attractivity of political Islam that we had and let's say take the Turkish model was very attractive within the region is not anymore very very much so attractive and this has changed as a roller coaster I mean you know you take 2010 and you take four years later this is a complete change as a sort of normalization of Turkey in terms of projecting and an attractive model for you know let's say it's political Islam or countries that are Muslim countries and I would like to have your take on that and this is a good news basically for my point of view but I'm afraid as the representative of the organization we left to close I will make two quick comments moving away from my role of moderator on the issue of Turkey the comment from Morocco is very interesting I have been amongst those in Europe advocating as early as the 1980s for the entrance of Turkey in the European Union so I can't be suspicious I can't be you can't blame me but I don't recognize the Turkey I was supporting 30 years ago and you have to ask yourself why those who were so much for Turkey have growing doubts about the cause they were supporting on the issue of oil you just have to look at the last cover of the economist shakes versus shale and the answer that is given is not the one you are suggesting there is tension between Saudi Arabia and the United States on that issue an element of objective rivalries which pushes the price of oil down which not necessarily is a good news either for Russia or Venezuela among others and we have to close there I want to thank you very much all for this very lively debate I'm not sure we are much closer to the cause of global peace in the Middle East but I just hope we are not further away after the thank you very much