 from their market links and prospects to the development of policy and the orientation and ambitions of this policy regarding just transitions from coal, to the engagement of civil society and their roles in these processes. At the global level, as the latest IEA's coal report highlights, thermal coal markets are facing significant uncertainties, including the widely recognized contribution to climate change and air pollution and increasing competitiveness of renewable energy. The last three years have been a wild ride in global coal markets, as demand dropped sharply during the COVID pandemic, only to jump massively post-COVID and following Russia's invasion of Ukraine. 2022 marked the highest level ever of global coal demand. Yet the International Energy Agency's latest projections seek coal demand peaking within this decade under today's policy settings. Always a gamble, but that's where they project. The announced pledges scenarios of IEA also foresee that global coal demand will decrease by 70% by 2050, if all these net zero commitments made by governments are followed fully and on time. But as SEI's production gap report states, limiting global warming to 1.5 degrees Celsius requires coal producing countries to reduce their coal production by 97% between 2020 and 2050. In other words, the future for coal producers and regions where coal extraction occurs is genuinely challenging. Nonetheless, there are differences between each of these country contexts and their coal market prospects. In the case of Colombia, considered bouncing back and forth in the ranking, but in more or less fifth thermal coal producer worldwide, there's limited domestic use of coal. It's mostly focused on, it's primarily for export, and that sets a different dynamic for, compared to other countries like South Africa, which has 70% of its electricity drying on coal sources. So there are important differences. Also Indonesia, which is ramping up its production, has been an important producer in the last three years, third largest producer after China and India with fast growth, important coal power demand domestically, but is also committed to becoming a net zero economy by 2060. In the case of Colombia, the recent government has put out a just transition roadmap, which is in the process of being elaborated. It's been listed as a priority just transition with some efforts, sorry, just transition from coal with some efforts by the current government also to limit new coal mines and expansion of existing coal mines, though this has had significant resistance. In the case of South Africa, there's been an important commitment made in the 2019 integrated resource plan, which set out a plan for long-term diversification of the power mix, given this heavy dependence on coal power with a diversification by 2030 and a move towards reducing the carbon footprint of the energy sector. Yet the recent 2023 integrated resource plan proposes a reduction in some of these commitments in the role of solar and wind and also delaying some of the closure of coal plants that had been previously set out. So in the cases of South Africa and Indonesia, there have been just energy transition partnerships set out, which commit support from other countries to financially support their just transition processes. South Africa has a longer trajectory and hopefully today we will hear a little bit of the experience from that, which has some really interesting lessons to be learned for the other countries. Indonesia, which more recently signed this just energy transition partnership in 2023, but where in this case in the just energy transition partnership in Indonesia, this is more focused on coal power and much less on addressing coal production or extraction. So in this context, the imminent closure of coal mines in the face of or the uncertainty of coal's future. And for example, in the case of Colombia, where some coal mines have already been closed suddenly or paused, suspended, this brings multiple challenges to coal dependent regions in the three countries from these governance and institutional challenges for local, regional and national authorities to issues around transparency and monitoring of mine closure plans to financial and training support for workers, their families, entire communities that have grown up around local coal economies to plans for diversification of other opportunities besides coal in the economy. So here civil society has various roles to play and has already shown really important roles in each of the contexts in defining and monitoring a just transition. As governments become more agile in negotiating international support such as these JEPP processes, the just energy transition partnerships, there is a need for accountability in the investment of these resources. So today's webinar, we will highlight some of these challenges. Panelists will point to some of these opportunities as well, both for local and regional authorities and also especially from civil society. So without further ado, I would like to introduce each of our panelists. As a reminder, in case anyone has joined late, you can please choose the language that you are most comfortable with at the bottom of your screen. There is an option to select Spanish, English or Bahasa Indonesia. You may also add your questions in the chat. There's a question and answer chat. We hopefully will have a little bit of time at the end for question and answers. Feel free to write your questions in the language of your choosing. And without further ado, I will introduce each of our panelists. So we have four excellent panels today. Juliana Peña Niño is a Latin America senior officer from the Natural Resource Governance Institute in Colombia. Juliana is based in Bogota, where she supports NRGI's strategy implementation in Colombia. Her work focuses on just energy transitions, gender and social justice, citizen participation in governance and social and environmental conflicts. She's also worked on territorial packs for regional development, human rights and peace building with NGOs and universities in Colombia. Juliana has a master's in social policy and development from the London School of Economics and Political Science and a postgraduate diploma in social economics from the Universidad de Los Andes in Bogota, University of Los Andes, and a bachelor's degree in economics from Universidad Industrial de Santander. Secondly, we have with us today Ilham Ristian Fareza-Suria from the Institute for Essential Services Reform, where he works as an environmental policy analyst. Ilham's work focuses also on environmental governance, just energy transition, coal dynamics and jobs for the future, with a focus on social and policy aspects of IESR's work. Ilham has also worked in the private sector with research on the circular economy and on projects oriented to community empowerment, both in Indonesia and the Netherlands. Ilham has a master's degree in environmental policy from Wageningen University in the Netherlands and an undergraduate in public policy and management. Now we have also with us today Mohamed Patel, Senior Economist in Sustainable Development from Trade and Industrial Policy Strategies in South Africa. Mohamed joined TIPS in 2017 and his work has focused on obviously just energy transitions, including also other work on the relationship between income and health in South Africa. His work has spanned topics from industrial development, competition and regulatory economics, working in academia and consultancy, also in the manufacturing, telecommunications and energy sectors. He has a master's in economics from the University of KwaZulu in Natal. And finally, we will have some reflections at the end from Kirsten Moore. Kirsten is an independence consultant based in Germany. She has worked as a scientific policy advisor to ministries, international organizations and political parties and to NGOs on topics related to climate and energy, as well as an evaluator and researcher. Her work focuses on climate and energy policy, especially just energy transitions and just energy transition partnerships, climate justice, gender and feminist climate policy. Kirsten has a PhD in ecological economics from the University of Potsdam and a bachelor's degree in governance and public policy from the University of Passau. And she has some experience working in the three countries. She will share some reflections from an intersectional gender perspective at the end. So without further delay, I'm going to stop sharing my screen and invite the panelists to turn on their videos. And first, I'd like to start with Juliana, if you would please. And just before we start again, for anybody who joined late, please choose the channel that you feel comfortable listening to for the language of the webinar at the bottom of the screen. And a reminder to the panelists to please keep your answers brief, three to four minutes each. And I will remind you as well, as we go. So as I mentioned in this brief intro, I would like to hear from you, Juliana, to kick us off. What do you see as perhaps the top two or three main governance or institutional challenges for just transition from coal? I think that would be really helpful. Maybe you can also give us some context to the case in Colombia. I mentioned just a couple things, but it'd be great to know more. Gracias, Elisa. Y muchas gracias por la invitación y por este evento y también dar la bienvenida a quienes están en este momento conectados. Voy a hablar en español, así que voy a hacerlo despacio para dar la oportunidad de hacer la traducción. A su vez que es un reto porque el tiempo es bastante limitado, entonces trataré de hacer lo mejor de presentar los puntos más importantes y hablar despacio. Entonces, para comenzar y completar un poco la información de contexto que ya Elisa ha presentado sobre Colombia y algunos avances del actual gobierno en materia de transición energética, también me gustaría plantear que la región norte del país, específicamente en los departamentos de La Guajira y el César se concentra el 90 por ciento de la producción de carbón térmico en total y en particular en los entre el 2015 y 2022 el departamento del César aportó con el 55 por ciento de la producción total del país y se posiciona como el principal productor en Colombia y específicamente el César es altamente dependiente de las regalías en donde casi el 50 por ciento de sus ingresos proviene de las regalías y a su vez tiene una economía poco diversificada. Entonces esto me lleva a presentar los retos a los cuales Elisa nos pregunta y hay un tema específico para el caso del César y es que en el 2020 y la empresa Prodeco Filial de Glencore suspende sus operaciones por argumentos de que el proyecto no es económicamente viable debido a los precios bajos que sucedieron durante pandemia y los altos costos operacionales y esto desencadena en el departamento pero específicamente en un municipio donde se concentraba la mayor parte de las operaciones que se llama la jagua de Virico en una crisis social, ambiental, económica e institucional que se traduce en el aumento de las cifras de desempleo, aumento en las condiciones de inseguridad y muchas dificultades de la autoridad local para proveer los bienes y servicios que pues se necesitan en el territorio, además de la caída de los ingresos. Entonces con este contexto yo plantearía tres retos importantes el primero en un escenario de cleave y salida del carbón pues la primera pregunta es cómo reemplazar los recursos que se van a dejar de recibir y se está promoviendo mucho la discusión alrededor de que en este momento es importante aprovechar la renta actual que existe por concepto de la explotación misma para promover la diversificación económica y de esta forma empezar a preparar la economía local regional e incluso nacional para disminuir la dependencia y también para que las autoridades locales desarrollen estrategias que aumenten el recaudo de impuestos que a través de estos impuestos digamos que ellos tienen más oportunidades de dirigir libremente inversiones en lo local. Entonces en este momento tenemos el presupuesto más alto de los últimos 15 años de regalías y se ve como una oportunidad para justamente empezar a direccionar estos recursos hacia la diversificación económica. Sin embargo el principal reto es que las entidades territoriales no tienen las capacidades para acceder a estos recursos en términos de formular proyectos de inversión que se dirijan hacia otros sectores económicos y esto por varias razones no tienen estas capacidades institucionales pero hay un punto muy importante y es que no existe una visión conjunta de desarrollo regional y una visión de largo plazo de hacia dónde tiene que ir en la entidad territorial o el municipio o el departamento y tampoco han habido políticas nacionales que ayuden a orientar digamos en términos de diversificación económica hacia dónde debe ir el país. Más recientemente el gobierno el actual gobierno ha expedido una política de reindustrialización pero realmente es muy incipiente y poco se ha podido pues saber de avance de la implementación de esta política y una última un último reto que me parece que es bastante importante y es el tema de la regulación del uso del suelo de estas entidades territoriales esto pasa por definir cuáles son las actividades económicas de acuerdo a la ocasión del uso del suelo y esto pasa por proteger áreas no ambientalmente estratégicas, excluir actividades de explotación de recursos naturales en otras áreas y definir digamos estos usos del suelo no esta es una función que recae sobre las entidades territoriales y en particular en Colombia los planes de ordenamiento territorial están desactualizados datan de más de 10-12 años y existe un reto que es adicional a este tema de actualizar estos planes de ordenamiento y es cómo se articulan los distintos instrumentos de planificación en un territorio me refiero a la planeación del desarrollo me refiero a los planes de manejo de cuencas hídricas en estos territorios por ejemplo también se han diseñado planes de desarrollo con enfoque territorial en el marco del acuerdo de paz entonces han surgido distintos instrumentos de planificación que no necesariamente están articulados y no necesariamente están apuntando a una visión conjunta del desarrollo thank you thank you Juliana I'm going to stop you there so we can pass to another panelist but I think you've raised some really important points and thank you especially for bringing up these challenges of articulation at different levels and the zoom on local local authorities and local territories I'm going to pass the word now to Ilham if you would like to share from the Indonesian perspective what do you see are the two or three top challenges for governance or institutional aspects thank you sure sure thank you and Elisa and everyone my name is Ilham good morning good evening good afternoon and one uh so uh so yeah this is an opportunity that's very uh rare to have this intercontinental cross webinars such as this uh so actually the so just to give you a better picture of how coal or resource governance is governed in Indonesia it's uh quite similar to what Juliana presented so in the coal regions for example there are very minimum economic diversification there's a huge worker dependency government dependency because it it contributes the sector contributes so much to the regional development and it translates into uh into the national planning because coal itself is amongst top two uh contributor of our export our our export and again Juliana also mentioned a thing or two about royalties and this has also been the case in Indonesia where coal royalties and among other taxes uh has been uh relied upon by uh especially the finance managers of the nation uh as an as a as a big income that that could be used to build infrastructures because uh I think most of us here would agree that uh developing countries are still needing uh affordable uh infrastructures to continue building our our humans our infrastructure and so on and coal helps to provide provide uh not only cheap electricity affordable electricity but also the monetary uh contributions like royalties and taxes and export uh income actually contributed to those uh economic development economic infrastructure growth that uh that we've seen and speaking of transition or just transition uh there is actually a dimension of just justice which is distributional justice which uh I think has been translated into electricity or energy access or affordability so that's why coal helped to achieve that in some part but that has become some sort of double-edged sword because it limits the dialogue on transition of course so so it at at at one point it it gives you uh tools to develop to build but it also limits uh our transition efforts and we know that Indonesia knows that we have to transition we design the Paris Agreement so we know that transition should be done but uh you know it's it's it's still coal powered that transition uh literally and figuratively so uh among the policymakers there are also certain narratives uh that help uh the utilization so I would call this a resource nationalism so it is some sort of uh so it is ours so we uh it's yeah there is also argument that it's it's got given it's uh our uh it's ours so we should use this and uh and it's it it provides goodness for for the nation so why else should we move from it anytime soon so that kind of resource nationalism is also exist but not at uh you know it it's not that uh it's not uh the government didn't say that a lot but it's there it's it's it's it's there in the forums in dialogues uh and also uh that leads to uh account outside counter-intuitive uh transition planning because uh the awareness of transition as uh as I think 2022 we we have the just energy transition uh partnership or jetp and then the year before we have uh ATM from from adb so those those instruments those uh financing uh tools for transition we have those we we also uh release some regulations on transitioning way to be commissioning the coal fire power plants for example we have those at one point but at the other point we still uh we still have this this coal that that that's so big in in the pipeline that's uh that that that will be still utilized for industries for example and even the downstreaming of coal is being prepared so I would say it's it's what kind of transition that they are envisioning is is still uh you know for us it's it's confusing so at one point you have those good things that I said and then the at the other you have uh you know there's underwhelming I would say uh uh transition scope I think that's uh that's it for me uh on this one thank you I'm very uh interesting points on these uh resource nationalism and how that influences the visions of just transition among other other aspects I'm going to pass the word to Muhammad you have had in South Africa the longest trajectory of discussions around just transition compared to Indonesian and uh Colombia and I think these institutional and governance challenges are long discussed please share some of the insights from that context sure thanks thanks for the introduction Alissa and I hope everyone can can hear me okay so before I start I mean it's just to reflect from what I've been hearing from the other colleagues so there are obviously similarities that we see across these countries and in South Africa we have similar dynamics so some of the commonalities are you know highly concentrated coal value chain that's very regional specific and in South Africa's case that's in the province of Malanga with high coal intensity in two local municipalities mainly so that's the the the municipality of Emalashlani and Steve Shwete another another commonality is a coal identity so people within the coal region really relate to coal as they've continuously identified it as their source of income over time so there's a very rich coal identity that's prevalent in those regions as well and somewhat of a resistance to the transition and that's a dynamic that's important in overall in overall discourse but but now taking a step away so how is South Africa different and and and this is what I'd like to to zero in at the moment so firstly we're in the midst so it's on the background context we're in the midst of an electricity crisis in South Africa where we've been experiencing low shedding for quite some time it's been periodic over the years but the last sort of times last a year or two years of electricity shortage has been particularly bad and has had a significant impact on the economy now that's in the context of South Africa having a high reliance on coal based electricity generation as you've mentioned so there's that stifling impact on growth that one needs to be aware of in the background another important contextual factor is that in this month of February we've had our latest national budget and the picture doesn't look very good so the growth for 2023 was around 0.6% of GDP 0.6% GDP growth which which was below what the outlook was for South Africa so we're in the midst of a very low growth environment as well which means that the fiscal space that state has to spend on just transition initiatives is quite limited so given that context the main challenges I'd say that are emerging in South Africa's just transition journey are the following the first I'd say is from a conceptual perspective we talk about the just transition being a bottom up process and the idea is that you want to give agency to the most vulnerable in the system and that includes within government so it really calls for turning around the kind of top-down government policy direction that's typically driven in South Africa so now there's a clear in power imbalance because we have national government that has a lot of resources and then we have provincial and local governments and as you go down as you go sort of go down the tier the amount of resources and the agency kind of goes down and that's not unusual but it needs to be sort of changed and there's difficulties around that in terms of how that system is going to function moving from the top down but also moving from the bottom up so that's one clear constraint that comes through where local governments are very constrained financially in terms of what they can do a lot of energy policy decisions tend to be made at a national level but local governments sort of have to bear the costs of those decisions one example is infrastructure sort of destruction that we see and you know as tips we've been actually been out to the cold fields and seen the impacts the roads for example are devastated by cold trucks the local air is full of pollutants and there's been a number of cases around that in South Africa as well so that's one one one constraint is those linkages between national government provincial government and local government encouragingly there are a lot of efforts to try and change that up but it's still a process that's that's that's unfolding and has yet to be seen you know how that's going to actually function another constraint that I'm sorry my screen is just going blank here for some reason another constraint that that we see sort of emerging in the discourse is around the capacity and you know it's interrelated the capacity of local governments so local governments particularly in the cold field struggle to provide basic services oftentimes private sector stakeholders take over government functions where where they're missing like providing landfill services like providing sanitation for example this certainly was the case with the state utility scom that would actually provide these services for for communities surrounding the cold power stations now the question is once these cold power stations become decommissioned what happens to that service delivery given that local governments are really struggling to provide them they're also in that it comes through the conversation of you know where does it where does a state just transition activity begin and end where does the private sector just transition activity begin and end it's it's a question that still needs to be addressed and so needs to be solved I mean so far from some of the research work there's a you know private players are kind of mixed some some would undertake investments to to you know to uplift the surrounding communities whereas others feel like this is a job of government our job is to develop projects create employment but you know basic services is a job of governments that's another issue that comes up there are others I'm happy to go through them in the rest of the in the rest of the discussion but I'd say those are the kind of the key the key challenges that emerge I mean there are other challenges as well but we can we can explore them as a discussion enforce thank you so much Mohammed really interesting and important points and thank you for drawing out some of the commonalities across I think that's also goes along with some of the questions in the chat around which we'll come back to so I would like to turn back to Ilham I'm curious if you could share given this picture that you've all three painted this of challenges institutionally governance and also some of the even cultural and kind of discourse around just transitions that has shaped that that ties into the the way in which policy unfolds um I'd like to turn to the role of of civil society and what do you see as some of the main challenges um for civil society engaging in just transitions what have been some of the main contributions in in the case of Indonesia Ilham and uh or what roles exist either officially or unofficially in for civil society organizations to to engage to hold government accountable and these processes um if you have any examples I'd be really interested to hear start with you Ilham sure and again I'm sorry before you start uh just to everybody to to try to speak as slowly and as clearly I keep forgetting as well but because we have interpreters uh working very hard so everyone can can hear thank you thank you thank you uh I'll try uh so yeah so by civil society I would assume you mean civil society organizations or CSO uh because normally uh well the energy transition is niche uh it's it's it's something really new it's something that the lay lay lay people haven't really understand it it hasn't touched the grassroots yet so just just it's it's uh so it it's only something that you see through social media for example so it's it's it's difficult to speak as them since this is literally my job so I know about the scope and everything and the dynamics and everything but as a society in general it's it's it's difficult for them to engage since there is not really any platforms for them to do so uh there's not really a forum or a dialogue for uh held by for example the government to to to have some sort of feedback from from civil society but there has been some uh emerging uh movements uh I would say organizations I mean it started by CSOs like for example ISR or uh whatnot uh so what we do uh I can only say as as as an ISR uh not as other CSOs from Indonesia but what we do is uh we advocate uh policy makers on uh the best possible policy uh ideally for a low low low carbon future so right here so that's uh so uh so we we seek to uh to advocate uh many channels of decarbonization so to to achieve the the Paris Agreement target uh and et cetera so in doing so the the challenge is what uh that we we mainly face is the limitation uh of data because we do application through our research products uh so my team my research team the other uh the other team so we we we consist of different teams or of experts uh around different different sectors so so we each team have their own uh focus I would say so uh so so we use research to advocate so we show data but obtaining data is often not the easiest uh in this current administration uh and oftenly uh when you use uh when when when the research is done and you you have to present your your research and you have to invite policy makers uh the the the relevant policy makers for example the development planners and sometimes uh it's it's it's it's not rare that we we we were met with well your data your assumption is outdated for example because you used an outdated data but in order for us to do to obtain the most uh updated data that's almost impossible so so it's so in one way uh it's it's it it it it feels uh that our research is invalidated because obtaining data is just so difficult but that's just one one way of advocacy there are others that that that doesn't produce their own research for example others the other organizations that just prefer to use other other mechanisms for example but for us uh it's it's mainly through uh through research and for researchers for analysts like us it's it's mostly data availability openness that kind of thing uh it's a bit difficult to to obtain uh and you know to to formulate the very best outcome you need the most update data for example thank you Lim that's very interesting and I think I appreciate you speaking from the perspective of civil society organization broadly conceived your role as IESR and as you as a researcher and those particular challenges um I think we in the in the uh in the scope of this project we had the opportunity to do workshops in each of the countries with different other other civil society organizations um maybe who work at different levels of civil society from NGOs to also more grassroots um so feel free uh uh to share um from some of those discussions as well I'm going to invite Muhammad now um if you want to share from the South African perspective and yeah considering civil society uh broadly uh conceived um how do you see some of these challenges or contributions um from civil society or roles that they have taken or could take uh in in engaging with the just questions from Cole. No great thanks uh thanks for the question so um as a start for some context South Africa has a very rich tradition of active civil society and this actually stems from our political past so given um you know that South Africa the kind of South African democracy is a survival of the apartheid time span um where where certain races in in society were excluded and prevented from economic participation etc so out of this rich political history comes very active civil society that aims to address injustice across the South African landscape now specifically when we talk about the just transition uh and we're talking about the migration away from fossil intensive you know production sources there's also a rich sort of civil society grouping and environmental rights group as well and they often work together and we also see cross collaboration between civil society and workers and as tips ourselves we've also worked with labor unions and civil society groups uh in order to uh to address some of the key just transition uh dynamics that manifest in in the country um so that's the kind of legacy uh and in South Africa encouragingly there's strong advocacy and and sort of vocal backlash against injustices particularly as we see them in energy value chains so some of the key organizations in South Africa organizations like Center for Environmental Rights, Groundwork, Earthlife Africa is another organization and what they do is essentially go into communities and try to understand what are the challenges that are being faced particularly the communities that surround industrial areas and very large plants and facilities so we've seen that manifest for example in the steel value chain around hostile metal uh uh production sites we've seen that manifest uh around uh escom power station so that's the state utility we've seen it manifest around sassel uh which is a large global petrochemicals company so there is that that that that voice for the community so what do they do they understand the community needs and in a lot of times um there's a power imbalance where the state identifies some of these very large producers as important for employment as important for growth of the economy so there's some leniencies that are afforded to them particularly around pollution uh so we've seen a number of court cases where some of these civil society groups actually take the state and actually take some of these companies to court and in some cases a lot of the time they win uh and force ministers to to hold some of the large polluters to uh to to the basic environmental standards uh for for you know for for human health that uh that are expressed in the constitution of the country um so there's that very rich very active tradition um but that being said it doesn't solve the problem so it's almost like a david and david and goliath had dynamic to invoke a sort of biblical analogy you know it's it's it's it's it's these these groups that are trying to represent disparate community voices try and bring some cohesion to them and then uh you know face up against national government and face up against uh the aslametal and sassals of of the world it's it's a tall order and they do face constraints a lot of them work so they they work in sort of different areas some work with litigation uh like the Center for Environmental Rights their lawyers uh some work with advocacy and public education um you know others work with community engagement so they all have different focuses but i would say that the amount of access to resources that these institutions have themselves is often limited and it's difficult uh so that's the that's the constrained environment they have to work in uh but but but yeah i mean i i'd say those are some of the dynamics that that involved there's a strong uh voice for justice there's a strong uh backlash against injustice especially when it concerns uh vulnerable communities that surround heavy industrial uh operations uh but they don't get a lot of support so they they often are flying uh the flag on their own uh to to try and elevate uh the need for justice in some of these communities um yeah so uh i say so i'd say those are some of some of the some of the key issues uh i think uh what helps a lot is cross collaboration so for example where civil society actors partner would be such organizations and partner would labor unions for example such that you they can prevent they can sort of produce a cohesive front and some of these key issues especially when uh the opposition is is very large and has very deep pockets thanks so much muhammad getting into some of the questions i think also i see in the chat on power relations uh you you have touched on some of that and maybe we can come back to it but i'm going to turn over to juliana um you also muhammad mentioned um some of the roles of different organizations and types of groups in the south african context and i think juliana maybe you also can speak to some of that in the columbian context um how has civil society been uh taking this role in the energy transition discussion what contributions and challenges i think there's some similarities perhaps with the south african context there are similarities uh and to start with the contributions of civil society um i think one of them refers to debate and visibilize these discussions about the future of the territories beyond carbon and i think it has been an important issue also as much from the local and up to attract the attention of the national government and seek the prioritization of measures to to attend these situations and that also brings challenges and difficulties because at the local level there have also been social fractures divisions around and polarization around this same discussion because there are still let's say groups that promote the continuity of the activity of the exploitation while others if they want to think about the development beyond carbon then this has also generated a lot of tension conflictivity at the territorial level and a little more at the national level there is a very important issue for the columbian case and it has been the role of civil society in the strategic litigation and different organizations communities and even citizens have made demands against high courts such as the constitutional court that have ended up issuing an important jurisprudence around the analysis of how the non-renewable resources are being managed especially in the mining case and these high courts have forced the columbian state to respond and to take specific measures to let's say re-indicate the vulnerable rights and they are rights both individual and collective in these years of exploitation in these territories then I think the strategic litigation has been a very effective mechanism however also with many limitations because when the columbian state really implements the court's mandates there was a third point that I think is important and that I think that the colleague of Donacia has already mentioned it and it is especially the role of universities team tanks and civil society organizations in providing analysis, investigations, discussions that help to provide sustained arguments around the discussion of the energy transition and above all that implies the fair transition and in terms of the mechanisms to make the government accountable I think there is a very important and recent issue that we do not connect much with the current situation and we did this through the regional elections that were taken in October of last year and for me that was an important mechanism of citizen control to the national government because the results of these regional elections show that there was no support for the coalition of movements and parties of President Petro and rather those who won in the regions and in the local authorities were candidates who presented themselves as opposition to the national government and to the proposals of the national government and this is a sample of the discontent for the performance and the few advances that the national government has also had in terms of energy transition and suddenly a much wider agenda and in the context of the construction of the route sheet of energy transition that Lisa mentioned in her introduction the government deployed spaces of dialogue in the territories and it was an intention to pick up let's say the proposals the demands the needs of the communities and the populations directly affected but there was no clarity on the character linked to what was talked about in those spaces of dialogue then at this moment the government still does not realize what it is that it is going to implement what were the decisions that were taken based on these spaces of dialogue then I think there is still a challenge from the perspective of the conception of the of the reach of participation since these tables were developed more as a way of consulting and collecting information but there was no participation that was beyond this consultation and that the communities were part of a decision-making process as to where the government's strategies are going to be directed, especially in in more local attention plans in this case for the region of the mining corridor or life corridor as the government calls it, which is the one that is first being affected by let's say the crisis that arises due to the exit of this company and due to the market conditions and a last topic I would like to address is also the role of the indicators that was also mentioned by one of the colleagues there the indicators have been articulating and have formed a collective of workers to let's say build synergy and agree on the proposals and demands that if they want to present before the companies let's say and earn much more weight in the negotiation with the companies no then this is a strategy that has been consolidated and that also in the framework of this collective they have created let's say other alternative strategies such as the creation of productive loans or loans of the type of renewable energy projects such as alternatives to the situation in which they are living and this has also allowed them to seek additional funding there are also divisions around the perception of the indicators because many times in the communities they have proposed that perhaps this articulation and this capacity in negotiation is very focused on the workers who may not be looking at the most common benefit in the community so here too there are different positions around the role of the indicators however it stands out as this capacity of articulation between them to gain a little more of synergy and weight at the time of making negotiations for the department that is even going on for the other department in La Guajira. Thank you Juliana really interesting points it's difficult to cut you all off because I want to hear what you all have to say and I know you have a lot more to say but the time is short so I would like to just do one last round and I'm hearing the Spanish and the English channel oh here we go I think it's fixed so I just want to do one last round of questions and make it a lightning round very fast so I want to ask each of you to share your top one or two max recommendations to address some of these challenges that you've raised so what's particularly thinking about your role in the organizations you work in or other strategies that civil society actors can use that other civil society actors can use to to energize these just transitions and push traction you've given some examples Muhammad mentioned cross-circulation Juliana has given some examples that have come from the labor movement I think litigation but what would you point out just if you could very briefly in two minutes one or two minutes and then because we want to leave space for Kirsten's reflections could you would you like to start Muhammad yeah sure I'd love to so I'd say the main things are firstly when in the consideration of funding whether they're from donor sources or whatever sources really around the just transition there needs to be specific allocations around providing capacity to the groups that represent civil society because ultimately that is what we're talking about in the transition is it's about chilling the impacts of the transition on vulnerable workers and ideally ensuring that they're left better off after that transition happens right so the civil society actors I key conduit to understand the needs of vulnerable stakeholders but also to feedback through research to education you know the landscape and what is actually happening in economies in transition so it's that providing that capacity then it's about the civil society's obviously assuming the role of representing vulnerable actors so and that can be in whatever form that we mentioned the different roles that these civil society players play so whether it's litigation whether it's research and education whether it's stakeholder engagement etc and and then lastly would be to actually participate in some of the national level debates and processes so in South Africa for example we have the presidential climate commission that was set up in the in the previous couple of years and they mandate is to is to understand the needs of vulnerable stakeholders so part of the story must be engaging with civil society actors since they are the conduit a lot of the time to to some of these marginalized and displaced communities I mean there's a lot more that I can say but it's a quick one so I'd leave it there. Thanks so much Mohammed yeah I'm gonna pass the word back to Ilhan please. Sure sure well this discussion has been mentioning lots of the the affordability of of of coal the the the easy access that coal provides well it's it's true so it it it boils down to what I said at the beginning that the problem is it's actually awareness that they should be transitioning not just keep using that and also when we said about affordability in Indonesia it's it's actually artificially made affordability meaning that in Indonesia we have for our electricity of our sector coal is we have a domestic price domestic pricing so it's it's it's even lower than the market prices so it's only 70 US dollar per ton so it's it's it's very cheap and it so the the cheapness the affordability of coal is it doesn't reflect the the truth so it's again it's it's artificial so it's it's clear about that but that that that subsidy that the domestic price that the government eventually also have to compensate because our state electricity utilities are kept at below a certain limits so they have to set a very low price for electricity so it again it it it provides a prices that are doesn't really reflect on the reality so when we always set affordability so it's it's it's not at all about the true price let's just leave it at that but what i'm going to recommend is actually to counter those those argument that that no environmental cost no health cost is yet incorporated to the decision making so we actually have a balance sheet environmental and nature balance sheet i i think it's called but it only but this this balance sheet is is used it's not specifically used yet but there is a regulation that says that this balance sheet will be used as a development planning reference but this reference this balance sheet only contains of how much of coal resources that we still have so this balance sheet doesn't have a health cost it doesn't have environmental cost it doesn't have any other externalities so can you imagine if our development planning really uses the balance sheet that that doesn't even have those externalities that can that that only contains how much coal that that's still there so that will that affordability will argument will keep resurfacing again and again because we do not take into account the health cost the environmental cost the the environmental damage we we did not capture the value of those let alone incorporating it to the development planning so my argument is government need to capture the the value the price the cost of environmental and health costs even lives for example i mean some says that it's unethical to put price on human lives but it's it's actually so many studies on that but again i think those those social costs needs to be covered needs to be collected and there is to be a hard number on it which then there is there is to be a regulation that says that those those extra cost needs to be added as a consideration because currently our accounting system only taking into account you know those those those prices those prices that that aren't even reflect their real costs so yeah i think that's that's it thank you thank you illham i think it's really interesting you raise kind of market strategies in a way but market strategies supported by evidence and that evidence base being something that civil society can contribute on and point out the deficiencies of the evidence base that's being used to support policy is a really important role um juliana can you very briefly share some top one or two recommendations avanzar en la en la formulación ejecución de proyectos de diversificación económica y que puedan responder vamos a los a los desafíos del contexto actual pero esto tiene el otro lado de la moneda y es que este tipo de de priorización y ejecución de proyectos debe ir de la mano de la planeación participativa y de la vinculación de las comunidades en en en esta en estos procesos de toma de decisiones y estas estas estas dos temas tendrían que terminar en la construcción de esta visión futura de largo plazo de del desarrollo de un territorio que termine permeando la a la comunidad y a la ciudadanía y que supere digamos apuestas de los periodos de gobierno que esta visión de largo plazo quede instaurada en los territorios y que sea digamos parte de una agenda de local y regional de la ciudadanía y que esta agenda pues digamos que sea inculzada más allá de los periodos de gobierno y un tema adicional creo que también lo mencionaban y es el de promover el el mayor respaldo y mayor conciencia en la ciudadanía general sobre los criterios y las prioridades de lo que de implicar la transición energética justa en el país y esto también conlleva a un tema lo que es una de las deudas como más importantes que se están evidenciando en el en este momento y es una regulación robusta de los planes de cierre y que en esta regulación se incluya a las entidades territoriales y a la ciudadanía digamos en todo este proceso. Thank you so much Juliana for pointing out some of these key recommendations and and other issues. I want to give time to Kirsten before we have a chance hopefully for one one combined question from the chat feel feel free panelists if you have seen questions in the chat that are directed to you individually I see Ilham has responded to some and others feel free to respond directly in the chat of the Q&A but right now I'd like to turn it over to Kirsten who as I mentioned is some experience in all three countries and and particularly has worked with an intersectional gender lens we haven't really brought in gender yet in the discussion very much so I'd really like I'm looking forward to hearing what you would like to contribute today to this discussion Kirsten and feel free to reflect on the interventions that have already been made thank you Kirsten you have the floor thank you Elisa and also hello from my side to everyone many thanks for the invitation it is a pleasure to be here today great colleagues from several countries and also listen and learn a lot myself as Elisa mentioned my contribution will center around gender perspectives and just energy transition and also some reflections on how these relate to the roles and opportunities for civil society and also the cooperation between civil society and research which as we already heard on the panel is quite often very important for discussion so for this I will first give you a couple of examples from the countries from the three countries to show and illustrate with how the gender lens can actually be helpful for example to see the differentiated impacts and injustices and then I will close with a couple of recommendations derived from this specific gender lens so to start with the first one I would like to tell you the story of three different women which the story is developed based on research in Colombia so here if a coal mine is closed this can be very positive for one woman because her territory is preserved for a second woman however whose husband then loses his job and thus the family income the impacts would be negative under a just transition approach her husband's job would be replaced and this would protect her from possible secondary effects such as for example unemployment leading to alcoholism leading to domestic however as long as these measures are not accompanied by other measures it would reproduce her economic dependence and it would also not recognize her and then the third woman in this example works in the informal sector around the modern and for example as a vendor for packed lunches and then when the just transition comes she would also lose the job and she would not be compensated and these women these three women in this example can self-identify as indigenous, white and afro-columbian this is where the little story ends it is based on research but of course it is fictional and highly simplified but I have seen actually similar types of gendered impacts in several countries and I have also seen like great examples how especially civil society organizations can help to identify these impacts that make sure that the underrepresented voices are heard and that the power imbalances of which we heard before are addressed so for example in South Africa I had the chance to visit an NGO which is basically run by a woman who on the one hand works with groups of local organized women and on the other hand she herself is part of national level governmental commissions and national bodies and so she is actually the one who communicates in both directions so she is basically a bridging actor who carries up the voices and brings down the information of the processes that are going on and she said that she is only able to do so because she has the trust of the communities for which transparency is very important in her work and she has the local knowledge and the local rootedness and I think that is also one of the general takeaways is that local expertise is quite commonly provided via civil society organizations and this local knowledge is very important to make sure that the just energy transition measures actually do fit the context because the context usually differ a lot in their details so once we leave national level and we go to regional and local level we do see a lot of complexity and also when we leave the level of techno economic aspects and we go to socio-cultural aspects we heard for example about the coal identities before from the panelists and if we go deeper then there are also the identities before the coal era started and that's where it gets really complex and we have to work with all the complexities to make sure that the measures really fit the context that's also the case in Indonesia a highly complex country with such a high amount of inhabitants a high amount of islands a high amount of ethnic groups that all need to be taken into consideration and with those examples of regards to the little time we have left I will come to my second part and close off a couple of policy recommendations number one is break down the barriers for participation this has an internal and an external component the internal one relates to institutional challenges so also really think of intersectional diversity in your own teams and externally it means to create the space for everyone to also share their lived experiences and ensure that then those experiences are the ones that also inform decision-making number two is strengthen the perching actors because for just transitions we sometimes really need to bring together very different people and connect very different worlds so really create and support people institutions organizations that can do this job number three is develop an engaging narrative and a joint vision so important cross contextual and the last one is create networks and build trust so cooperate and exchange wherever possible I think this cross-country webinar is really a great example of that and with that I will close and I thank you very much for your interest thank you so much Kristin for raising some of these really important points I think many there was a question in the Q&A about you know what how do you define just transition in each context and many times it's often referring to the transition as it affects the labor force and as we know there are many people and families and communities that are also affected by the transition or affected by the legacy of extraction that are often not taken into account in in all the ways in which they may be affected or there may be ripple effects so thank you for raising some of those points and those recommendations we're very close to the end of our allotted time here but I wanted to it's it's difficult to to bring in all of the questions that have been really rich questions that have been raised in the chat but I I saw that there were a bunch of questions connecting to these this how just transition is being incorporated in in each context also how these existing power dynamics and and lobbies and different positions of different sectors how that plays out and how just transition gets implemented or translated into policy so as we see just transition becoming more incorporated into more mainstream discussions or more visible discussions this we also see it being used to promote different meanings visions or models of just transition some were transformative some less so some trying to keep the status quo so as following some of these numerous questions around power distribution in society also that kirsten has raised how that plays out and the the really diverse contexts and within each national context the diversity regionally and along various axes so how these power shapes how these plans and measures play out where resources are allocated how they're used so in in all these discussions and all these interventions you have pointed out how civil society can play various different roles including representing those who tend to be excluded from some of these debates and decision making so i'd like to if you have any final comments each of you on how we can keep empowering this role of civil society organizations in just transitions as we move from planning into implementation and and also monitoring that implementation so i'm going to kick off with juliana if you would very very briefly in a sentence or two sorry those process locals and the second is in resaltar y y mantener muy vivo los resultados que obtenido la sociedad civil en el marco de los años en el caso colombiano por ejemplo las los resultados de las sentencias de la corte constitucional y otros resultados concretos porque muchas veces pasa que las organizaciones y las comunidades se agotan en estos procesos entonces hay que mantenerlos motivados y acompañarles mostrando que sí vale la pena y que sí se han logrado resultados exitosos para mantenerlos vigentes y y digamos en el en el proceso de implementación thank you juliana as it's right over to ilham for your final reflections sure thank you so i would i'm more leaning towards giving them platforms i think i think we can cso's can provide a good act as a development partners we can provide a technical assistance consultancy and so on uh so if only given platforms to actually be heard so uh yeah i think given platforms to to to be integrated in in just transition development planning thank you thank you ilham kirsten would you like to respond on this question or any other further reflections yeah as i mentioned i think that cooperation um is really important and uh the adoption of different perspectives different viewpoints to look at the same thing the just transition to make sure that we really include everybody to make sure that those are transitions that actually do benefit the people on the planet and then of course um gender lenses are one can thank you so much um and again for raising the gender um dimension which is very important and often left to the end like we did a little bit today but hopefully we'll be learning and how to integrate it across um mohammed would you like to offer some final reflections and then i will close that webinar thank you all connected and stayed here till the end yeah i'm sorry and yeah i'd love to and very quickly um you know one as i said before is you know being realistic about the resources that cso's uh require civil society actors environmental rights actors require for this type of work to be involved uh in in in in in representing community views uh i second i think it was a suggestion that ilham made which was around encouraging coordination collaboration so working with different partners uh so that ultimately the voices of the vulnerable can be elevated to the highest policy levels and where it can actually influence policy processes and finally i'd say uh it's very important that cso's uh are adaptable and flexible because as the transition discourse projects unfold um they're they're going to be very different types of impacts uh risks and benefits that are shared across stakeholders uh and um some level of adaptability is required to um to encounter new situations and uh and the evolving landscape so i'll leave that yeah sorry thank you um i think did i skip anybody here we got everybody got a chance to give their final reflection so thank you uh so much to all of you panelists especially and also all of the participants who have joined today um it's been a wonderful to have everybody connected early and late and um across these three contexts i think we have a lot of um inputs that could potentially and even some of the questions in the chat that we didn't get to that might be the subject of a further webinar in the future if we could you know focus it on more specific topics that might be something we can consider as a as a team um in this project and also um i think we'll be just want to share with those who are participating we will be distilling some of these lessons and um ideas strategies that have been shared across the different contexts into some publications um we will share some of those hopefully with you in the future some of these have already been published um if one of my colleagues could to pop the the web page into the q and a chat then you can see from there some of the publications that have already come out others will be published soon we're also working on translations um i think it might be uh another output we'll try to work on is a shorter piece that can be published in all three languages and kind of distilling again in in shorter form some of these lessons from the three cases relevant to to the three countries so uh i'm not going to try to summarize because the time has passed um but i really look forward to engaging with all of you uh in the future and continuing as we um as we explore these these challenges of just transition and our individual roles and organizational roles into the future so thank you everybody and also i want to do a special thank you to our interpreters who have been working hard over this last hour and a half um Jeanine Javier and Lisa and also to the team at sci who have managed the um zoom so it has gone so smoothly Camilo Martello Claudius Trambo and Jose Vega and also Agay um thank you all uh for your help in making this work the virtuality take care everybody bye bye