 Welcome to the Monday, November 1st, 2021 meeting of the Montpelier design review committee. I will let committee members and staff introduce themselves. Eric Gilbertson. Eric Gilbertson. Meredith Crandall staff. Steven Everett. Benjamin Cheney. Martha Smirsky member. This creature. Okay, at this time we'll let Meredith review the remote meeting procedures and process. All right, we're going to keep this pretty brief because you don't have any members of the public signed on right now. But just in case somebody watching via orca wants to sign in. Here we go. All right. So, for those of you watching at home on orca, if you decide you want to sign into tonight's design review committee meeting. You can do so using this link here. And you can also call into this phone number and use this meeting ID to log into the meeting. If anyone is having problems, you can use this email and email me and I will do my best to help you log in. Of course, if for some reason somebody can't log into the meeting member of the public will have to continue the meeting to a time and place certain. For if anybody does sign into the meeting who's on orca right now but wants to participate. When you get on. Once I've checked, you know, when there's a pause I'll check in with you and get your name and address. And then we'll let you speak when it's time for public comments. All right, I'm just going to stop that right now because everybody else is here in person. Oh reminder to members to mute yourselves when you're not actually talking because we reduced background noise. All right, there you go Steve. Okay. At this point, do I hear a motion to approve the agenda. So moved. I will second. All in favor speak your names. Eric. Then Steve. Okay, we'll go forward to the first application for 70 Main Street continued. Come up to the table and describe the changes to the application and a quick reminder to everybody here in person to make sure your spot speaking really close to the microphone. I apologize. Okay, so the changes are that we took out the center mullion and reduce the frames to four. In this photo the mullions are white because it's just a stock catalog photo they didn't have enough time to actually draw up what it would normally look like but these white parts will be black and that is not frosted glass it would just be regular black glass like you see on positive pie or any of the other places that have recently installed windows so I think that that will reduce the overall look that when you're driving by from the street it'll just look like a black window in general. And those are the changes we made. Oh and also the mullions are in fact insulated. So there won't be any interior frosting that was a concern last time. Good. Not the thermal break is a very, very nice feature. And it goes along with the insulated glass to give you a good insulating properties. Do any members have any questions comments about the difference in the appearance. Make sure you're talking into the microphone. Are this going to be a flat block that you painted or shiny black the mullions themselves. Yeah, I believe they'll be shiny because that way they'll blend in with the windows a little better. But we were open to suggestions. Steve's are painted expert. These are painted. The, the mullions are small enough that whether they're a glossy or a semi gloss or a satin. I mean that I think that they're small enough that I don't think that will be an issue. And we've ordered them before and they come through a satin which is a soft color. And they look, they look very, very nice. So we can give you the option for whatever, you know, gloss semi gloss or satin finish on them. And if you've got samples to look at before, you know, you've given the go ahead to make it. I'll give you a good idea of just holding them up outside maybe in the sun, right, to give you an idea of which one you prefer in terms of the appearance because you want it to be subtle wanted to look really nice. Absolutely. And the glass is going to be kinked. No, it'll be glass clear. Yeah, but but because it's so dark in there that when there's close, it'll probably look black. Next, this is Martha. I still have a great deal of problems with the fact that this window is so much bigger than the existing window. I recognize that back in 40 years ago that there was a large window, but I just think that it changes the look of one of our primary buildings so significantly that I just can't see it. Are there any pictures of the building when it was first built. So if there is a picture I submitted last week with Mark and the dogs with the windows going top to bottom. Yes, what was the date of that, you know, I would guess it was 1980 ish. I think it's probably those windows have been the way they are since I moved here in 76. Okay, so maybe 1976. I was two years old. I don't really know. But I was guessing by the hairstyles. Can you imagine that the bottom of the garage door windows would be roughly at the same elevation at the bottom of the windows for the mad taco. Yes. We're hoping to use the original footprint and since the mad taco is sort of part of the building. I'm, I'm going to say yes. Yeah, yeah. I'm too surprised to find that the original window is still there. Probably is in the framing if you look at the photo of the window, the one with the dogs in it. You can count for boards on the bottom. And if you look at the proposed. There are four boards on the bottom. So you're probably pretty darn close to what the original. When you disassemble it, you will find, yes, what the original framing is and then keeping the original cell height would be important. Yes, your contractor should be able to do that. Right. And I believe that when we made this proposal initially that was forefront of our minds is to keep the original footprint. And I think that's a good thing. I agree too. Yeah, you guys do a good job with it. Thank you. I have a, I understand why you want to do this and everything, but I still have a problem with, you know, the garage door windows on on certainly on some buildings, not on everyone, but on some buildings. So if you look here, you mentioned that if we could come up with reasons why it would be impossible to do it another way we should let you know. So I want to let you know about the sliding window idea. We don't have the width and the building to do it. We'd have to go into the mad taco and the sewing shop in order to have anything slide. And as far as double hung windows. For the size we'd like, I won't be able to open them because they'll be too heavy. I think that a double hung window of that size would be kind of unheard of really. So that's why that's why we're going this route. It's not because we necessarily want to put a garage on mainstream we're trying to do everything in our power to make it look like a window, but that's just how we can open them based on the space that we have. Yeah, did you did you look at two double hung windows, you know, side by side. I think that that would actually look less like the historic footprint of the building than what we're doing now because if we're asked to have fewer mullions that seems like it's a lot more frames. Well, it's just more of a traditional window. Oh, you're absolutely right but not really for a storefront. Yeah, but okay and I think it's a little more it's more and keeping in my opinion then a garage window. I can't argue with that. Do you have a quote for how much the garage doors are not installed but just to buy them. I think it was in the first packet. I'm not mistaken. I see the word quote on the page. I want to say for cost estimate of $4,700 and the on the left hand side. That shows the way down the page on the base, the application base page here. Yeah, it shows down construction cost estimator 4700 reason I ask is my idea is certainly more expensive. But like a large custom window. Levered up and also sort of created like an awning space. That would be beautiful. Unfortunately, I don't necessarily make the decisions. I thought French stores would be lovely as well, but I had a little shot down on that. Yeah, no I hear what you're saying and I do love that it's very New Orleans. That's kind of where I was headed. Yeah, I know right we're all headed to New Orleans this time. Yeah, I could bring it back to my folks and see what they say but I have a feeling it would be a cost increase. Yeah, it's been a rough year to kind of just throw it out there. The idea of the French door would be the doors that open right but then they swing out and hit the other businesses one of ours so that wouldn't be a big deal but it would get in the way of the sidewalk and stuff. Yeah, this way this would be all self contained. Yeah. Any other comments, suggestions, questions. Make sure you have a microphone to listen. Martha and Liz do you have any other comments questions or suggestions. No, not really. I think I'm just more in favor of a double hung window idea than the garage door on Main Street. I don't have anything other than what I've said, based on the application for the just just to get a read on everybody's feelings about it. Based on the overhead door with the four narrow but wide panels. So what are your thoughts and in terms of before I go through the criteria of your feelings about approval or or not. I'll go first. I'm a no. This is Martha gets away I think about this this is a really typical bar window configuration. I'm familiar with some bars in Wisconsin. I grew up that they're this way but and this is not the original window as well. And I think I will probably vote to approve it. Based on the fact that this is not an original window. And this actually is reestablishes the opening. I don't I don't like it but I don't see any alternative for it either. I'm inclined to approve it. I prefer the original application over the over this partially to Liz is sort of double hung. I feel like it creates a little bit more structure that sort of feels a little feels more in keeping with that building to me than the long kind of really narrow rectangles. But I realized there was some work done prior to me coming here to have that opinion so I'm willing to defer but the shame we don't have a picture of the in the 18 hundreds. I don't know what the wonder might have looked like that would have been a very expensive picture to take. The one with the dogs is a pretty standard configuration I doubt if the facing on the below the windows is original but that's hard to tell. Let's explore the idea we talked a little bit last time about just four pains. About the bigger pain just across so you have four four pains. Right I think they needed to have enough to bend and the four pains wouldn't bend enough. They need to be small enough for each it to bend the pain to go up. Did it help anybody if I did a quick share of a broader picture of the building so that you can see the windows on either side of Charlie O's. Sure. And I have a question for Martha and Liz whether if this was a scenario where it was a window like I'm describing that was hinged at the top that opened to become an awning but was one kind of big plate. Whether that would change your feelings about it at all. Sorry, hold on. I had to move something in it. Maybe they couldn't hear me. Yeah, no I can hear you. I don't know if that would change my opinion. But I mean I do see. I don't think the big windows that you know if you're restoring those openings the big openings probably weren't the original openings probably were double hung windows there. Maybe the whole configuration of doors and windows who different was different originally. I do like the idea of restoring the original openings, because they are coming up. I'm not original but this historical thing, probably from, you know, 18th century. So, you know, my, my first preference would be to have a double hung or maybe to two, you know, four pains but they have the one side be a slider so you can open at least half of that space by sliding half of the window over next to the other half. I think you would be preferable I think because you would only have four pains of glass and. You know, if that's that's my opinion. That's helpful. Thanks. And I, I could more be more satisfied with Ben's idea of an, of an awning that opens on the top. I mean, this with this picture this does help Meredith. I see what you mean about making the window bigger, but I still have a problem with the garage door look. Well, Liz maybe you can help out on this my guess is that this building did not have big windows to begin with. Right. And a fairly common storefront is the, that's why I kind of picked on the, you know, they're fairly large pains but four pains on a storefront. Right, right. It's fairly common. And that that's what the look is I think at high. I mean, the windows are like four large pains, but there's sliders I believe. Yeah. So, so are the ones that will use your sliders also. Oh, okay. Yeah, positive. Sorry. The positive pie I think are big double hugs, I think, and then Julio's was ones that slid sideways. Oh, okay. It was like three pains where two of them slid behind the third one for Julio's. I think the good thing about restoring the opening is that somebody may decide in the future that this is not a great idea and just put big picture windows back in again. Yeah, no, I agree with that. I think that's a good point. I think restoring the original opening and again I think you'll find that when you start pulling materials off inside and outside you will find the original frame there. And again, what is it that you can put there that you can open that will create what at what point in history was there. And that's why I would, it's too bad we don't have a picture from way back of what it looked like so it would make it easier to go back to 76. You know that whole, the building had a center door with two windows on either side, kind of like what's up above on the second floor. Oh boy, it's hard to say. But it's you who knows, yeah. Based on what I see at work. I don't think it's changed in a very, very long time. I think you're right. Yeah. Yeah, I mean I think that I also. I think it's TJ harvard saloon. There was still something next to it I don't think the whole building was and that was 1861. I only know that we have a fire map that when the, the marketplace burned back there that that's the oldest record that we have of the place. Oh, that's interesting you have all that history. It's great. Oh yeah you should come and check out all the history. Yeah, no I'm not saying you have to bring it back to what it was, you know, it was first built, but it's just interesting to find out. Yeah, totally I'm all about it. Yeah. This was a bar before it was Charlie as I think it was a place called the woodshed. There was the woodshed the pines there was a doctor's office for very brief amount of time before that it was the TJ harvard saloon. There might have been something between 1861 and when it became the pines. But, yeah, that's all I know. You don't have any pictures of the saloon I assume. No all they have is the fire map for 1961 yeah. Some of the old city directories might have pictures. You're making me want to go to the historical society and see what they have. The newer so important. So we have a consensus that restoring the, the larger opening seems fine and it seems to blend in with the rest of the streetscape. The question is, what, what is acceptable for filling that space whether it's double hungs or garage doors or, or French doors or whatever the possibility may be. May I say something. Sure. I think that it's a misnomer to call these garage stores since nothing's going to drive in there because there's a definite to like a foot. Let's let's call it an overhead door. Yes, an overhead door. No overhead window I think you know, because there's no door about it I don't want people walking in and out of it. I don't think that that's going to be its purpose I think that what it is a window that opens in a way that is possible for our tiny old building. You know, in a way that works. What's interesting is that the first floor openings don't line up with the second floor things at all. Yeah. I suspect it's been that way for a long time. So Ben did I hear you say that you would vote for it even though you wish it still had the center million or some other ones you would still vote for it and so would Eric. Yes. It sounded to me like Liz and Martha were both knows on the current application so I think it would be up to you Steve. Would you want to give them the option to put the center million back or I would give them that option. That would be my yes. I'm thinking. I don't think make much difference as long as you know the idea with this new thing is to have the dividers all disappear. And so whether it's there or not doesn't doesn't make much difference to me. I continue to vote no but I think actually, you know I'm happy that the big opening will be restored and you know it's not. I'm not terribly upset by it but I just don't, you know, I think there might be a better option. What's kind of. I'm trying to imagine them open and I'm imagining. There's still like a bar that people sit at. And so, like, you'll be when it's fully open. There, as far as like your view will be into like people's feet and ankles and I don't believe we're going to have people sitting in the space. I think it's just going to be a window because you've been in there the trap door to the basement is right in front of the largest window. And then in front of the other window is the ATM machine and the pool table. So even though we have seating there now I don't believe that that's going to be an option and I know that working with the DLC with like I have been I'm pretty sure Pat's going to not want people sitting on Main Street drinking. Yeah, because it's you know it's a little. So I think they're really just going to be open air windows. People can see in and you might be able to say hi to somebody on the sidewalk from the bar. But, you know, nine times out of 10 and the daytime will probably have one of the clothes and just have the other one open to the full tables you know what I'm saying because it's really for ventilation more than anything else. And then what prevents me from using it like a door, the door person, because the way that we schedule folks is that at night when we'd have both of them open because it's busy. We would have a door person in the middle making sure people aren't using it as a door. We also have velvet ropes that we use from time to time for crowd control. And then during the day, the one that we would have open would probably be the one where the bartender standing there and seeing everything so be the one next to the bar. Yeah, unless the patrons were like I don't want someone see me drinking 230 in the afternoon on Main Street so you might close in the door to which case I would say sure and open the other one. But I think that we're very good at what we do. I know as far as like keeping people safe. So, and again, our first goal is to get approved and then I'll go to the DLC and look for best practices. Which is kind of what I do with everything that we do that's different now because they know more than I do about what works. And the one other thing to consider is that when those doors open, you might have a code issue or a railing to keep people from falling out in case somebody lost their balance and went out and fell out into the sidewalk. Yeah. So you have to maintain at least, if not 36 at least a 42 inch rail. To prevent that from happening. Right. We're building the people that are contracting us are going to know those rules, you know, and being compliant. And you can contact Chris Lombra. Oh yeah, I love Chris. Awesome. Yeah, we'll talk to Chris. All those are outside of our purview but I was right right now but those are all good points and as far as safety is concerned, that's my thing. So I'll be on that because you know, I like my people and I want them to get hurt so they can come back, you know. Yeah. That might also give you some options if you are required to have that bottom. If you need a rail there you could even consider having the bottom panel fixed and then three panels that raise up if you need. If there's a height issue, and especially, I know it's a bar but I'm not sure if anybody's allowed to bring kids in but if the kids come in you may have to have a some kind of protection to keep them from crawling out even if you had a rail. So again, it's awesome. But yeah, no, you're absolutely right. And again, those safety first. I know that sounds ludicrous but they're thanks to considering Chris Lombra could give you some ideas about how to deal with that. Oh yeah, I'm happy to work with them. I haven't seen them in years. The trick is it's maintaining the original opening and yet having something that opens is to try to minimize the impact, and I think a black color, maybe on a satin finish would soften it as much as possible. And again, it sounds like the consensus is that you could do the full with glass or with a divider in the middle. Does that is, you find that acceptable. Yeah, just barely. I understand the ventilation issue. I tend to think some of that stuff is going to go away. Oh, I hope you're right. Shortly, not shortly, but it's over time and I know this is a significant investment so Well, I think that one thing I've noticed is that people really like the new culture of outside and having open air and I think it's but it's done a lot for people coming to visit. They love it. They think it's really cool that we have this inside outside town now and I hope that we could kind of jump on that bandwagon, you know, are you going to open up to place around the corner. Yeah, we have a permit every year now. We're hoping to make that better looking every year too. That's a story for another day though. So you're okay with the full. Either the full width or the divider. Either one. I'm right on the edge, but I think restoring the opening is important. I think the fact that it's reversible. Yes. Because once you frame the opening, you could have a this overhead door slash window, or you could put in a slider or a double hung or any other option window. Liz or Martha either view on board with that or you still object to the configure configuration, even though you might be willing to, you know, be okay with the restoring the original opening. Yeah, I'll go with it. I mean, it's, it's you know, I think there's a lot of good things that are happening with with this project so and I like what Eric said about it being reversible. It's, you know, it leaves room for other options at some point. So yeah, I'll go with it. Okay. And I guess I'm going to be your holdout Steve. Okay. That's okay. Again, you sort of look you sort of look back and the original opening was larger than they made it smaller and now it's being larger again with a little different of the glass and frame. Okay, based on that, I'll go through the criteria. Exterior design and materials of new construction or alterations of existing buildings shall be consistent and compatible with the characteristics of the existing building, or other properties in the district in this case, the buildings on either side. The removal of historic materials or alteration of features and spaces that characterize a historic property shall be avoided. Character defining features finishes and construction techniques or examples of craftsmanship that characterize a historic building shall be preserved deteriorated character defining features should be repaired rather than replaced where where the severity of deterioration requires replacement new features shall be replaced in kind. Any treatment that causes damage to restore materials including me not limited chemical or physical treatments shall be not be approved. In this particular case, restoring and existing opening with a different configuration of glass and mutton's in this particular case we'll call it acceptable existing building shall be recognized as a physical record of their time place and acceptable any new development shall be differentiated from the old which I will respect and be compatible with a massing size scale architectural features detailing and overall character of the primary historic building and nearby historic properties acceptable proportion compatibility of relationship between width and height or facades as well as relationship of width and height of windows and doors again, it's being restored to the original opening acceptable rhythm visual patterns established by the alteration of solid walls and openings windows and doors and the facade of a building shall create a rhythm. In this particular case that's acceptable. Architectural features, including but not limited to cornices windows shutters fan lights and tabulator trim and other forms of molding or character defining detailing prevailing on the existing building shall be considered in the alteration acceptable windows and doors on historic structures character defining windows and door patterns placement sizes proportions and original features such as trim sash molding shall be preserved to the extent possible. When preservation not possible such character defining windows and doors must be rehabilitated or replaced in kind. When the windows and doors that are not character defining may be replaced by such replacements was be must be compatible with the historic building style materials and architectural features. Again, we're restoring it's being restored to the original opening with a different configuration of mutton's and glass. The recommendations the applicant has the option of full width. Glass and the four panel overhead window slash door. Or with center divider the again the application is for the insulated frame and glass and the smallest possible is preferred. And then we'll say the applicant has the option, the finish of the black color, again to to soften the effect of the change, ie the loss or satin finish. Was there anything else, dad. So the safety issue inside you just have to deal with based on, you know, code requirements. Absolutely. Without any, anything else to add. Do I hear all in favor speak your names, Eric, Ben, Steve, Martha you're still a no, I'm still a no. Okay. I'm going to go to one and favor. Okay, so I'm going to give you that. Just right there below my name. Okay, thank you. Good luck with your project. It's a tough one. Is anybody had a chance to look at the minutes of October the 18th. And I will move them to approve them. And this is Martha I'll second it. All in favor of the minutes of October the 18th, speak your names, Eric, and Steve. So minutes are approved. Does anyone have anything else to add. I would just, I got some information on chimneys I talked about in Grafton for Tim Heaney. And I haven't looked through it closely and I need to check with the person I'll just give it to him if I, if it's not going to be the cheapest thing in the world, I can tell that. If you're going to do that, you have to do it right and you really have to replicate the mortar joints, the brick size. Yep. And all of it is apparently there's a company in Maine that does this stuff all the time so. Oh good. That's awesome. Good. Before the development review board tonight. I talked to Tim today just briefly so I guess he could present that to the board if he wants so I didn't send it to me because it's somebody else's files. Yep. Yep. Anybody else have anything to add. If not do I hear a motion to adjourn. So move. All second. All in favor of adjournment speak your names. And Steve meeting is adjourned. Thank you all. Thank you. Bye. Bye.