 And welcome to liquid margins and this is annotation for all how social reading centers student belonging and just to know that we had. We were scheduled to have two guests today, but one of them a little more had a conflict at the last minute and so had to bow out. So apologies for that. We will try to get a lot on a future show. Our guest today is Lornell dunk Lee and Lornell is associate professor of English and African American studies at Harold Washington College which is part of city colleges of Chicago, and are always exceptional moderator is Jeremy Dean he's the VP of Education at hypothesis. And we also have a couple of our colleagues who will be in the chat and if you have specific questions about how hypothesis works or social annotation in general, that are not being addressed here, you can ask those and Becky George will answer you. And I might too. And with that, I'm going to stop sharing and turn it over to Jeremy. So again thank you all for coming here today. It's great to be here folks. Thanks for joining us. Lornell excited to have a conversation with you today and hear your story. We share a background as English professors. So maybe we can talk a little shop at some point, but I'd like to start just by getting to know you a little bit more. Can you just sort of introduce yourself and tell us where you teach and the school you teach at and the subject that you teach what courses. Sure, sure thing. My name is Lornell dunkley, and I'm an associate professor of English and African American studies at here at Washington College, which is one of the city colleges of Chicago so I work at the downtown campus. And so I work in an urban two year institution. I've been there for about 16 years as a full time faculty member. I teach courses in English 101 English 102 literature, such as introduction to literature, African American literature, and then because of my research interests in in African American literature. And two years ago certified to teach introduction to African American studies so I do teach a class in the social sciences department. That's great. Tell me a bit about English 101 at Harold Washington and the city colleges to Chicago is that a course that a lot of the students have to take. Yes it is it's a it's a gateway course it is required. I teach, well I have taught English 101 the traditional freshman composition course, but over the past few years I have taught English 101 dash 97 which is actually a six hour course where the first hour and 20 minutes is composition, and then the next hour and the same group of students, it focuses on grammar support reading and grammar support. So those students have me literally six hours a week, or three and three hours and 20 minutes twice a week. So that's the course that I'm currently teaching this class is usually roughly 2025 students. They're from diverse backgrounds, and as usual with a 16 week semester, there's a lot to cover, especially in terms of like their writing skills their reading skills also, but also making sure they get the necessary grammar support that they need to move beyond English 101 and to go on to English 102. So this particular course is really, I try to tailor it every semester to the needs of that class, especially the grammar support because it varies from semester to semester. Yeah. I wonder if this is an interesting point to sort of transition and hear your take on the subject of the conversation today which is student belonging. It's a term that you think about as a teacher, or as a scholar, but what does student belonging mean to and why is it important. And specifically maybe in the context of, you know, teaching at Harold Washington teaching in the city colleges of Chicago maybe teaching English 101. So student belonging. I usually I usually start the class with emphasizing that we, the class and I are a community of writers, and we're a community of readers. And I recognize that the students come from diverse backgrounds I have students from various countries in Europe, some from Africa. They're personally when they have does the first assignments of personal narrative so I usually get students who talk about immigrating from Mexico, or leaving their homeland to come to America to pursue the American dream. So we so because of that diverse background, there are diverse backgrounds. I initially try to include them as part of a community where community of learners were community of readers or community of writers. It's okay to share your experiences, your experiences are valuable and worthy of talking about because I always have a student who says to me, I have nothing to say. And I have to tell them will look within yourself, you have a lot to say use yourself and use your experiences as a starting point. And so, once we break down those barriers in terms of like, you are a part of this community that you are a part of this, this classroom, and then we can kind of move forward with on specific writing assignments. And the class size really helps with that smallness, because we really get to know each other and our backgrounds. Now it's a little different now because it's remote. But when it when I was in the classroom before coded, there was a strong sense of like, I can see you, we are, we have different strengths in different areas that we need to work on, but we can do it together. It's like a team work atmosphere. And you just mentioned the pandemic. Are you still working remotely now. Yes, yes, I am. And so your students, of course as they used to teach face to face or now remote has that exacerbated that sort of, you know, tensions around student belonging of making sense feel like they're part of a classroom and collegiate community. I think it's changed. At least that's my perception, because the kind of backtrack a little bit when everything changed to remote. I was on sabbatical. So I was reading about everyone's experiences mid semester I guess around this time two years ago, about the sudden change, and prior to that I had taught online courses. So I was already used to teaching online, but remote was a little different. So when I started teaching remote the summer of 2020, I believe it was 2020. I had to feel like I belong, because I felt like the outsider because I'm like well this is remote this is a little different I can't do what I did before I went on sabbatical, this time around. So every semester there was a sense of me trying to figure out what can I do to engage the students so that we all feel like we're connected, even though we're on the computer. And sometimes I can see their faces. Sometimes I can't. I can just I just know you by voice, or something is still that disconnect, but I, I always try to figure out what through the technology, how can we feel like we're still a part of this community. So I think it's gotten for me I think it's gotten better. I don't get that feeling of like there's oh I don't like remote learning from the students or there's a disconnect I feel like we're kind of used to it now. And, and we're still grappling with the technology there's still some technological issues in terms of students having access to technology or doing something on a phone. And I don't realize they're doing it on the phone so I have to find another way for them to access the material, but I think it's gotten better now. I think it's still we're still I still feel like I'm thinking that this and I still feel like I'm connected to them, even though there's still that sense of disconnect like we're on a computer and we could be anywhere. Yeah. Well, so tell me about how social annotation and about hypothesis of played a role in your course, both generally, like how you've used it, but also how it's, you know, helped or intersected with your attempts to help students feel like they belong and that they're part of a community. Well, every semester, I try to think of ways to make the class engaging so once I get through summer 2020 when I realize okay this is what remote learning is. I need to think of new ways to make the class interactive, because I also teach African American Studies course which could be prone to lecture I try not to do lecture that it, it has that slant to it. Whereas the writing courses that I teach I tell students the only way you can learn how to write is they actually write, and I need to see you write in, you know, and be there to help you. So, I think it was the fall of 2020 I went to a faculty development workshop at school, and one of my colleagues discussed how she use hypothesis in her class. As I saw hypothesis in action, the light bulb went off in terms of well this is an interesting way to get the class talking. Even though it's through the computer screen this is a very interesting way to get the class talking and engaged about whatever it is we're looking at. So, while I was watching the demo, I was thinking in the back of my mind, I could do this with a student paper, or maybe with a text because my sabbatical project was on open educational resources. And so, when I returned to the classroom, I started using open educational resources so that was a factor to well how can I bring this text into the class. In such a way that I can see that they're engaged, because I never want to make assumptions that they did the reading or they understand your reading so I wanted to see that they were engaged. I wanted to see in real time how they were engaging with the text. So, I started experimenting with it in fall of 2020 with just let me just try it. So, let's just do this in real time let's just see how they respond to this text. And, and I'll just give you an example of this. In my African American studies class. Once I learned how to pull pages from a PDF file like specific pages. They were reading a book called between the world and me by 10, 10 he she quotes, and we it was our final day of discussion. So I wanted to have a final day of discussing this book, where this man who's writing basically a letter to his son about what it means to be black in America. You know what does it mean to be constantly be seen as an outsider in American society that you are not perceived as a person you're perceived as a threat your life to be taken from you in any moment. So there was this one section in the book in the last part of the book, where this woman who's very successful talks about how despite her success as a doctor, her son was still killed by the police. And, and this class is very well it usually is racially diverse meaning it's I have Latinx students African American students I have Caucasian students. And this is a class that has no prerequisites so anyone can take it, but if it fills a diversity requirement. So I was curious to see like well let's do is I wanted to use this, this woman's commentary about even though she's very successful. She still feels like she's victimized by American society. I wanted to see how the students are reacted that as a final commentary about what this book means to them. You know what does it mean about how do you fit in with society how do you fit in with the, you know how does the American dream apply to you. So we did that in real time I made sure the exit was very short. Because I realized that doing things on the computer takes a while. So I gave them 3040 minutes, and I watched them respond to the response after we talked about how to annotate. And I've used their discussion to talk about so after reading this book. How does this make you feel about your sense of place. How does this make you feel about how you see yourself in the world, because this one particular section as I mentioned before discusses how this woman wasn't sure if the police were going to catch the killers of her son. And as, as we know from the current day news that's happening all the time. The class was racially diverse so not everyone had the same experience, or to see things the same way. And I got some very interesting responses from that for them to think about like what does it mean to belong, or you think you belong, but these other forces, or situations or people in the real world are saying no you don't because you're different. There's something different about you, or there's something. You want to fit in, but you're told you can't. It's very meta to be reading about, you know, the problem of, or the experience of belonging or not belonging while also talking about the idea of student belonging is part of what helps students feel like they belong, something that sounded like you were doing there, which is, and you mentioned this in your sort of preface to your approach to teaching, ensuring that students personal experience is validated as, you know, part of, part of what what is what we're doing when we're in a college course, you know, we're thinking about human experience, and your experiences is akin to that it's not different it's not other. Do you have students share, you know, their personal experiences and annotation as a way to validate their, you know, life stories alongside of the stories you might read in a lit course. I do, I do. Usually when I do the annotations. I just basically I just tell them annotate, I don't really specify a link, depending on the assignment I might say we'll respond to two other people, or just annotate. And so, and I've learned or have seen that since I, if I leave the instructions this way. It becomes, I don't want to say becomes a free for all that I guess I do get some lengthy annotations. And I do, I can tell from the words that are used any annotations that some people become very upset by what they're reading, or they reply to each other because you know remote. You might have a few people who talk to you, or talk to each other on the computer was the same thing in their face to face classroom. But at least with the hypothesis I was able to get everyone to talk, even if people who were like me as a student the quiet student didn't say too much but was keeping up with what was going on. I could see how people were really engaging. And some people this shared their personal experiences some people who are not African American but I can relate to being in a community where this one community has nice homes and, you know, mode lawns and so on that this other community doesn't. Or I remember there was one part where a student, the in the same section, the Dr Jones from the excerpt was talking about how she was worried about her son, what her son was killed. But this whole thing about mothers worrying about their children with their children come back home to them alive. And I had a student talk about how she was pregnant at the time that that was something with her with another baby, that she was worried about the same thing happening to her children. So, and she wasn't even African American as the individuals were in the book. She was from another culture so I can see how they're connecting to this universal fear that, you know, this is a real thing. Yeah. You mentioned something in there learn all about about quieter students students that are maybe less likely to share maybe in a you know face to face environment and hypothesis of social annotation being something that helps students participate. Can you talk a little more about that and how that might relate to kind of developing some confidence and I don't know that quite students are necessarily feel like they don't belong I don't know that that's a fair statement but but does social annotation encourage that participation and kind of nurture a sense of belonging and I do have something to say here, or at least the way that you deploy the tool. Well, well, just reflecting on my own experiences as the quiet student in class. I felt like, well, maybe I didn't have anything to say, or depending on the situation in the class I didn't want to say something and come across as the representative spokesperson for a group of people. When I do the hypothesis, I just tell them up front, just react to the text I want you to connect to the text as much as you can, as much as it speaks to you, and that there's no right or wrong answer. And it particularly in this class or even my English one on one classes, I actually tell them, okay, I'm just, I'm not grading for grammar and content just for I want to see how you respond to the text. There's no right or wrong answer. And so everyone contributes even if I don't say like respond to two classmates, everyone has something to say, and it's always interesting to see like what parts of the text they do respond to. But at least it shows me that they're participating or like they're making an effort to participate. So if I never hear their voice or see them, I can see that will least you read it. You read this text and you had something to say, and your ideals are valid, especially if someone responds to it, or I might just respond to that quiet student that I know is quiet and say, well, those are good ideals or could you say more about this. Yeah, I feel like what I'm zeroing in on some sort of revelation here which is, you've talked a couple times about yourself, but also students like well I don't have anything to say. I don't have anything to contribute here and that's maybe a common experience right and something about certain courses certain, you know, educational context, maybe doesn't nurture that sense of belonging or that sense of I have something to say and there's something fundamental about social annotation. You tell students, part of your job here is to say something right that is that is the basic expectation here and my basics that you do have something to say. So it kind of flips that idea that like everybody has something to say. In fact, everybody may be required to say something in this in an annotation, and that's the fundamental assumption of the course and of the technology is that we all have something to say and that's that's why we're here it's not just to listen to the authors that we read not just to listen to the teacher, but also to share of ourselves. And that's kind of a fundamental aspect of when you take notes and you're taking notes that are shared is that we want to hear from you, you have something to say. Are there ever times though where you feel like students are reluctant to annotate or, or feel like they don't they still don't have something to say or that they, you know, because there is a kind of assumption that persists I guess in the context of annotation where students are still reluctant to share and feel like they don't have the skills or the experience to participate. I would say so far in the times I've used this. I have not detected that reluctance. Some students, they write more in the annotations and they actually verbalize in class, or for some it's kind of the same like as this person talks in class and is annotating a lot. It has a lot to say. I don't get any kind of reluctance to it. If there is, there might be the technological part of it like well how do you annotate. So when I introduce the whole concept of annotating a digital document. I demo it for them. Like I show them, okay, this is how you do it. This is how you highlight the text. I type a response to something. And then I showed them how to delete it. How to change it and how to reply. So that might be the only reluctance I might get like how do you do it. But then I type things to say like I'm trying to show you, this is how I'm connecting to the text how this text is speaking to me, or how, you know, what I'm relating to it. And when I give them instructions for annotating and it depends on the class and the assignment usually it's on. It's usually guided like an English 101 class it may be something like okay let's annotate this paper the student paper anonymous student paper. Look for the thesis look for the examples to counter arguments, or like if it's in the African American studies class and we're reading a historical document or someone's first hand account it might be. Well what would you do if you were in this situation as you read this, think about like, how does this text connect to you, your world experiences, what you're learning in this class, but then also think about it in terms of well. What would you do if you were in a similar situation. You know how would you respond so I kind of like pose certain questions or things going to think about what they're reading. And usually it just kind of take off with that. So if there's any reluctance it might be what how do you do this how do you annotate it like how do you highlight, and that's usually resolve in a minute or so. One way that I've thought about that I've been thinking about student belonging has to do with just the idea of being in college. You know, am I, am I college material, do I do I belong here, should I be doing something else instead I think a lot of students lose confidence in themselves as college students and feel like they don't belong and then, you know, sometimes drop out. And is that something that you experience that students sometimes feel like they don't belong, you know, that your college that they, you know, maybe aren't don't have the skills, or the potential future and that that's part of your work is to try to assure them of that and help them develop the skills to be successful in college and feel like they belong. I do encounter some students who present those concerns. Now this was before COVID and before I was exposed to social annotation. And if I had the student in class again I wonder how this would work, but I remember one student coming up to me after class, asking how do you read a textbook. This is when I was using a textbook. And I was I first I was, I was silent because I wasn't sure how to answer it because she literally meant like how do you read this textbook. And I showed her during office hours like well this is what you should be looking for in a textbook. We kind of did it together. And then she felt a little bit more confident with like okay I, you know I'm having trouble understanding this material, but I can kind of get through this. I wonder if I had hypothesis back then how that would have changed things a little bit because there's a technology issue like, do you have access to this. Well that's a much of technology but well like a computer or phone or something that's working because you always have that disconnect with remote. But there are a few students who say that and I tell them you, you know, if you need help, I'm here to help you. There are resources here to help you, you can get through this. But if you let someone know that you need help. Those resources can help you just, you just, you just have to ask for it, and be willing to take a chance. And, and a lot of them feel comfortable like approaching me and saying well I didn't understand this word because that's actually one of the assignment. One of the things in the hypothesis assignment is, you know, identify anything you don't understand, and why you don't understand it like if there's a word you don't know, or if you're not sure how is a context and I can actually see in your annotations I had to look this up, because I wasn't sure, or sometimes I'm not sure how this relates to me. I'm not interested in this with a syllabus annotating a syllabus to understand why that syllabus is important to them to being in this class, but then to be successful. Some of them, why try to take personally but some of them were wondering well why is it, you know, why is late work penalized or why is plagiarism that serious or you know something to that effect and I would respond and say well, you know you, your ideals are supposed to be your success. So, when I tried it with the syllabus, they can see well this is why you're here. This is why this document is relevant to your success as a student, and why you need to follow it me and I read it, but why you need to, why you need to at least be aware of how this is going to contribute to your success. This is what's expected of you. I wanted to focus in on one thing that you said there, that student that said you know how do you read the textbook, and then you walked her through it in your office hours. Do you think that some of that same work is done of like, I don't know, whether it's through peers or through your own participation or just through the fact that students are, you know, literally using a tool to read that some of that same work kind of learning to read the text may not be a textbook and maybe these are resources that you're using now but like that that idea of kind of learning to read, learning to read at the college level is assisted by social annotation or hypothesis. I would, I would certainly think so. Because first of all I can see that they read it. And I can see it, especially if I do it in class I see it in real time. So they're annotating on the screen, and I'm looking at their annotations on another screen to see how I'm going to tailor the discussion afterwards. I'll give you an example. In the English one on one class, we were looking at a paper that had a thesis statement well we were looking, they were looking at a student paper. And one of the questions was where's where's the thesis statement, and they have the class pick one and the other class pick another part of the paper. So half of them got it right the other half got it wrong. And I saw that, and we I had them look at it on the screen, and actually had someone read it out loud to like okay let's read what's on the screen like how does this sound to you this is sound like a clear statement, or why did you pick this, you know so we kind of talked about their choices they made and we looked at the mechanics of it like where it was placed. How the build up led to this being the actual thesis statement versus it wasn't the actual thesis statement. And that's one of the student learning outcomes is that close critical reading of the text. So this has allowed me to kind of see it in action like yes you really did read it, or you must read it, or you have questions about it let's talk about these questions let's talk about why you had these questions about this text. So if I introduce it, if we do a social annotation exercise at the beginning of class that shapes the rest of it so I might have an ideal like what I want to do the last 50 minutes but it depends on what I see on the screen, and how they respond to the text and what they're pointing out to me so that I can kind of guide them, or see okay no this isn't a thesis, or this is not really a good example depends on what they're looking at, but it kind of. I can kind of. It's more or less here it is read it, and then let me see how you're reading it, and then we can go back and see what was missed or what you should have seen earlier. But we also before I even use social annotation in the class. I have a lot of knowledge of my African American studies class women in my English class English one on one we talk about what does it mean to read. So I actually asked them like what do you like to read. What do you read or how often do you read. Can you read on the computer screen, or do you prefer the book, because I'm using OER and we're going to be reading things on the screen. Just tell them just be honest you don't like to read that's fine just like I told them if you don't like to write. That's fine to just tell me that, at least I know where they're coming from. And then we talk about their reading experiences in general and then it's like well I'm going to introduce hypothesis to you. I'm going to show you how we're going to read these texts on a digital format and how to respond so that that's going to influence. You know how are you reading. Did you miss something, or should we go back and look at this again. And, and they kind of see I can see like I said I can see an action how they're meeting those SLOs. That's great. It strikes me that another aspect of cultivating belonging in a classroom that you clearly possess just as a, as a teacher, but maybe the hypothesis helps a little bit with is just the attention that you're giving to your attempt to understand where they're coming from you're wanting to understand where they're coming from you're responding to their responses to where they're coming from so that that's just a huge part I mean I imagine the students in your courses really do feel like they belong because you are really listening to them and changing how you teach and responding to teaching them and teaching the class in that way. I want to pause here and open it up for discussion. I've been super focused in on learn L story so I haven't followed the chat. But I do think there looks like there's some good conversation in there there may be some folks in in the chat who have their own experiences of trying to cultivate student belonging in courses so we'd love to hear from folks about the students but also to share their experiences at this point and if any of my colleagues have things they think would be worth surfacing from the chat I'll pause and it's like for Annie's on has unmuted her video to maybe share some questions. Yeah, and actually, Claire Donahue or Donna Hugh would like to be unmuted to ask a question. So, I think I'll do that. Hi, so my name is Claire. I have taught intro composition classes like English 101 102 before. I'm in a new role now where I am working for Harvard Smith school with their certificate programs, helping doctors kind of relearn skills, and one of the programs I'm on is a effective writing one and we're looking at potentially using hypothesis as a way to help them with their learning components. And I think one of my questions is, what do you think is going to be a beneficial way for me to utilize a tool like this for learners who might already have set habits for annotations and like reading habits but the instructors on these programs are trying to adjust it so that way they're kind of tweaking their behaviors and habits to be a little bit more effective. So I think that's my question of like integrating this type of program and trying to get anybody's experience with, I think, behavior modifications if that makes sense. Claire one point of clarification I wanted to give me this are you saying effective or affective like to be more. Oh sorry effective effective. Okay. So, I mean I think from from my perspective and learn I'll be interested if you have ideas here. The neat thing about social annotation is that you know people may have their own habits of note taking and an annotation that that may precede the introduction of a tool like hypothesis. One of the benefits of a tool like hypothesis and hypothesis assignments is that a teacher can be pretty structured in how they expect students to read and can can design assignments for certain reading practices. Say, and this is not a great example for you Claire, but if I was really, you know, trying to drill poetic analysis, you know, I might have students be looking for very specific poetic elements in a poem, diction, theme, illusion, meter, different aspects of poetry and say these are the things you're looking for here and sort of drill into them and and sort of guide the assignment with specific, you know, like I said reading strategies and so I think you can identify the reading strategies that you're trying to cultivate. You can design an assignment around that and one great tool for, for making this even more visible in a hypothesis exercises using hypothesis tags. So if there are five keys to effective annotation in the context in which your instructors are teaching and trying to nurture student reading habits, you can identify those and they can become tags and so students could really, you know, you met a cognitively calling out the work that's being done in those annotations and just become aware of you know you may have had previous reading strategies but these are the reading strategies were cultivating here, and it kind of just brings it to the foreground, so I hope that's helpful I don't know if you have anything else to add learn now. That's very similar to what I do depending on the course like this week in my intro to look class we're reading trauma. And the students were introduced to free tax pyramid, which is the, you know, the various parts of a play like the rising action the introduction, the crisis and so on so they're reading to one act plays, and each one act play has a hypothesis associated with it and I want them to apply that pyramid to those plays like where in the play is the exposition, where in the play is the rising action, where in the play is the resolution and so on. So, I want them to read, and the other question related to that was like how does that identification of those parts of the play influence your appreciation of the play. So I'm approaching this assignment in terms of like, how are you appreciating drama in general because it's meant to be performed. So they're reading it, but they're also applying this the structure to each play that they're reading. So I can see like you know you can find it in each part. So sometimes the assignments are guided that way there's certain things I want you to look for, because I want to see this in your paper or your assignments. It's like, just connect to it. How are you responding to it in general? It's one of the neat things about the tool that it can be used in a wide variety of contexts, very specific things, but also just eliciting responses. It strikes to me with your response especially now that what Claire is asking is kind of like what people are always doing with social annotation where you're always teaching specific reading strategies and specific contexts. Students will be coming with either zero experience or some experience that might be not totally directly relevant like learning how to analyze a poem very specifically. You might have listened to lyrics in a song before and have some sense of like, you know, how to interpret meeting, but just to develop some structure around that as part of the work that you can do with social annotation. One question in the chat that I wanted to bring up and I don't know if I put words in your mouth at all in this, in this to this degree Larnel, but it's about asking students to share personal experience. Whether in annotations or another context and somebody in the chat asked, you know, are there any privacy concerns around asking students to speak about personal experience. Simon up back about 22 minutes ago. Are there any concerns about privacy when asking students to share the personal experiences on hypothesis. I would also just say are there any concerns about privacy when asking students to share the personal experiences. End of sentence. You know, whether it's in person face to face in class or in other contexts. So I'm not sure if Simon's question is related to like data privacy of having those student annotations within our system which I could speak to. But I'm also just curious from more of a pedagogical perspective. That sensitivity around students at being asked to share their experience. Is that a big part of what you're doing when you teach is asking students to talk about the personal experience and you ever worry about privacy in that regard. Well, when I when the hypothesis assignment is, you know, show me how you're connecting to the text, those personal experiences sort of come out. You know, especially the ones that are very detail like I can relate to this because it's happened to me kind of thing. They know that it's not leading the classroom, so to speak they know it's not leaving bright space they know it's not. I'm going to like share it on tiktok or something it just stays here. It's within our classroom discussion. And I do usually tell them if you don't feel comfortable sharing it. That's fine. I even do that with writing assignments I tell them well if this is really personal if you don't feel comfortable sharing it, then that's okay. You know, so they know that they kind of know like you, they need to know their comfort level about it. But so, but in general so far and I had any like significant concerns with privacy it's just within the classroom. Someone will post something someone will respond to it and say hey I had a similar experience or I know what you mean. And then, you know, I mean, depending on the assignment I may ask them to elaborate on it if they feel comfortable about it. But that's about that's no significant concerns. I'll just basically piggyback on that by saying that your, your stipulation that this doesn't leave the classroom and this doesn't leave bright spaces, you know how hypothesis functions in terms of data privacy as well like people who have access to this course in detail or whatever the course whatever LMS it is will have access to these annotations. But it's not. There's no sharing of those annotations we as a company don't have access to them, other people outside don't have access to them so we piggyback on the privacy guidelines of the school and of the LMS. We're officially a time but for any is there anything urgent from the chat to bring up here. There's a really good question from ethnol a hopefully pronounced their name right. They want to know, can you make some recommendations about redirecting students away from reading each other's annotations, and not the text to be annotated. I am finding that my students annotations can be derivative and thus enact a weakened kind of social reading what kinds of strategies. Do you have to get away from this kind of reading. It's interesting right now do you have, do you have that experience you feel like people are cribbing off each other or being derivative. Or is that even a problem, I'd say, right, because those students are are reading and writing but I do hear the concern that you want students to also be engaging with the text you don't want them to be just reading annotations and you want them to have ideas of their own. What are your thoughts learn now. So far, I have not seen that is a problem. I guess if if it's like approaching that it might be something like why agree with the like the author said, or it's something really short, where I can kind of tell this person's just annotating to say they annotate it. And you didn't really think about it, but from the ones I have seen there. They're usually all I can relate to this or I see what this writer means. It's usually very detailed. So someone will read their response, especially if it's an assignment where I say respond to two of your peers. It's just like the virtual conversation. I'm sorry, it's just like an in person conversation it's like you're piggybacking off of what someone else has said. So it's almost like we're in class, talking to each other. So I haven't seen that as a like major concern like, I'm just going to repeat what someone else says they tend to be. This is what this person really thinks. I almost, I want to go back to, for me, one of the salient sort of points of our discussion, which is this idea of like, you have something to say. Right. That's the point of us being here. That's the point of this tool. To some extent that's extra technical in the sense that it's not based on the tool it's about cultivating a sense in the classroom that like you have something to say. If you're being derivative or you just copy what other people saying, that's not the point. That's not the point of this tool. That's also not the point of the class. It's not the point of this conversation is like the whole point is that you have something to say. That's my headline for, for our conversation. And I might, if I was still in the classroom, put that up somewhere in the classroom like you have something to say, that's why we're here. This tool can help other things can help too. I want to give you the last word if there's anything about your experience with social annotation or your ideas about belonging that that you want to share. We're excited to talk about today that I failed as an interviewer to elicit. Any final thoughts. My I would say my experiences have been very positive. As I said I have used this in composition classes, literature courses, even a social science class. I experimented with it in the fall now this semester I use it pretty much in every class in some shape or form that every week every once in a while. The classes that are completely online the worldwide web courses, it sometimes replaces a discussion board, you know, to kind of break up the monotony of like poster answers to this question by Friday or Saturday and respond to appear. So it kind of replaces that too. And I would certainly do it again because I have found it to be a very effective way to engage students in the text. If anything, it's pushed me to think okay what, what can I do next semester. And I get them to read next semester to respond to that's relevant that could speak to them. They since I, they're, you know, they come from such diverse backgrounds and, and reading and writing experiences what can I do to to excite them about reading. You know, because when I asked them do you like to read and some half of them say no, or I just read. I'm not going to, at least this way it's like, well, maybe you can see how exciting reading is, you know how I can open up your mind to new experiences. And if it's a writing class, you know, this is how this is one way you can learn how to write by just reading. You know, so I feel like it kind of brings back this practice of just the enjoyment of reading back to see that it can be fun. It's tying in a technology which we're using now, and you can get something out of it. Great. Thank you so much. I want to connect with you outside of this because I have a background African American literature as well and did some research on Chicago authors specifically. So I'm going to hit you up to have to continue the conversation about annotation student belonging but also about some of the courses that you teach. And I just want to say to the audience and to others, I really am very excited to continue the conversation around student belonging and social annotation. I feel like it's really a critical issue in higher ed really in education more generally. I do think it's something that social annotation can help with. So I hope I look forward for any that maybe we can have some future episodes and we can have Lornell back to talk about belonging with some others who teach in different contexts and have different strategies. And I'm looking forward to that conversation continue. Thanks for your time today, Lornell. My pleasure.