 George Bruno with the 21 report. We're at the 21 convention the final event of the decade and I'm talking to Jack Donovan welcome How'd it go today? Great. I was I was actually really pleased with felt like it was my game. Oh, that's awesome. Yeah. Yeah, I was happy with it What was the What were your bullet points? What did you want to get across to the men this time? Um Well, I was gonna just talk about the way men in my speech, but I actually ended up talking about a lot about Carl Young yeah, who's been getting actually very popular in the men's fear in a certain way and And actually always has been since the 90s the first kind of yep Poetic mythopoetic man's move in and so forth And it was interesting because I've always liked young myself and then I went to talk to read his red book this summer and actually found a lot about it that I didn't like and I think young actually has a lot of feminine influence in his writing that I think Maybe needs to be highlighted more. Yeah, you know a lot of things about the mythopoetic man's movement the early stuff were actually very feminine and and so I think the things I was really talking about was the You know in the first part of the red book he talks about A his soul being a woman Like getting in touch with the soul's woman and I went back and researched a lot of things about That idea like where did he get that from? Yeah, and he traced it up from You know the medieval mind. Yeah, and so forth. Yeah, and I think that's an idea this this idea that only women Can lead us to our better selves Has become a theme in in western society and I don't think it was always that way I think it maybe in the middle ages I think is when it did get picked up kind of the glorification of the virgin mother And then only a woman can lead us to to our best selves And I think that's leads a lot a lot of men astray because they're looking for this woman to make them better And they should actually be looking at their men to show them how to be better Yeah, you know the heroes and mentors and and the fathers and so forth. Yeah So that that was a big theme and then the other theme he in the red book. He kills sigfried And you know this idea of killing the hero and why do you have to kill the hero? And it seems he was making the argument that you had to kill this thing that you have to imitate To be fully individuated and I think that's almost a you know, kind of a juvenile or sophomoric way to look at You know self transformation because you This idea that you know, I'm never gonna have to copy it I'm gonna be so good that I don't have to copy anybody. Well, I don't know any men that good That they don't they don't have someone that they're gonna model You're always looking for new models. I mean as you get better in life and you know, you've Well, I've gotten as much as I need from that guy. I need to look for another guy to model after and I think that's The idea that you have to Have this idea that's This ideal that's better than you and will always be better than you and is unreachable Has become kind of a trope of modern feminism that you have to that's bad to have this thing that you can never become and And I don't think men usually look at that way Well, I have this north star this thing that I'm never going to reach But I'm still going to head in that direction And it's okay if I'm never the best You know, you can still do powerlifting without setting the world record Right And it's you're still going to get a lot out of it and maybe I never have to be that guy I certainly never going to be that guy. I don't want to be that guy I don't want to put in The work to be that guy because I have other things I want to do But I can still get a lot about from watching those guys at the top of that And the same with anything when I was talking to your brother actually who reads about martial arts And I'm like, I'm not I'm not going to be a pro MMA fighter But I can certainly learn a lot from those guys Sure And and the idea that these guys should be Kind of taken off their pedestals So that we don't feel bad is just a very childish way to look at the world. It is yeah a friend of mine is a Arguably One of the most well known NFL coaches and I said, what advice do you have for men? He's in his 80s now and he said to me Young men need to find men they can emulate And boy that struck me because that's harder to do You actually have to weed through a lot of men to find men you can emulate There's not a lot of men that I I would want to emulate Yeah Well, and the other thing is a I think a mistake is that everyone's looking for someone famous Yeah, that's I mean people always ask me well, who are your heroes and they want me to Identify someone well known Yeah, that they can and I'm not going to say the rock or something Yeah, because that that's what they want is some kind of famous person Yeah, and doc doing a lot of times it's it's especially For average men it should probably be people that are in your life Yeah That you know like men that are better at something because you then you can actually see how they do what they do Versus, you know this idea of what this guy is doing. He might be doing something totally different Yeah But uh, you know, he's just kind of what they're selling that he does is one thing But uh, you know, it's someone that you can actually be around and get some advice from or just watch how they behave And a lot of times that's how you learn someone like watch what they're doing How they're watch how they're interacting with people and that's You know, you can take cues from that I see uh jocco on uh Twitter always taking a picture of his watch at 4 30 a.m Getting it. That's all he says. Yeah getting it for 30 a.m And a lot of guys retweet that and you know, he'll just say Something little phrase and a lot of guys will retweet that And you know, he's famous You know, he wrote the book. He's got the podcast But not a lot of people are going to be jocco. It's just not going to happen No, a lot of guys can't even get up at 4 30. Yeah. Yeah And that's the end of it. I mean, that's that's that's that's his transitional career Yes, you know, they're they're gonna have the background of what he did before right that got him to that space Right, that's what that he's been doing and you know, and everybody always says someone had a great quote about one of the guys from the conference had a great quote about uh The jocco watch thing because I already heard that once today You know, well, you know, if you cut this end off a sleeping bag and then sew it to the other end You used to have the same sleeping bag like, you know, is he going to bed at seven o'clock? Yeah, right like, you know, like maybe you get up at 10 But then you go to bed at two in the morning, but you're still getting the same amount of day, right, you know So it's it's definitely It depends on your life and what you need to do. I mean not everybody has to do that. So Yeah, different Different advice is different for different guys and and I always say I've said a lot for the past couple years different advice Different voices for different years There's Kind of a finite amount of good advice in the world. It seems like yeah, and uh, but there's a lot of guys who need to hear it from Someone who they connect with yeah And you know, he's going to be the guy that someone connects with they need to hear it from him Yeah, but uh, you know guys who were into you know, like heavy metal music might need to hear it from a guy Who looks like that or you know that you know, it's the same advice in many cases, you know You know like concentrate on the things near to be close to you instead of things far away I mean, it's it's basic self-help advice that just everybody needs to hear but they need to hear it from the right guy Yeah, you know, I like I never related to athletes very well. I I just You know, there's a special dinner and the and the guest speaker is you know, multi trophy winner award winner of this You know, whatever game or this series And it just never appealed to me and then there's the Navy seal guys that are getting a lot of mileage these days. Yeah past five years a lot of navy seal stuff going on military stuff and But not a lot of people are emulating the more intellectual and philosophical types You know, there's a lot of uh, they're equating greatness with physical greatness, which that's part of it You do have to take care of yourself but um, you know, there's guys here that that are never going to be jaco or uh, you know Who's the guy that killed bin Laden? He's traveling the country. You know, I forget what his name is Wrote a wrote a book on it. Whatever. Um, that's not average. Joe is not going to he can't emulate that Right. He just can't so you have to find a realistic Person. Well, I mean they the the thing is that what those guys bring to the table You know, is this stuff that I wrote about the way meant what they bring to the table is that We live in this protected society Where men don't have to do the job they've always done at that perimeter and they've had to go out and Face death. Yeah, and they don't Men don't have that experience that they're looking to get something from the guy who's had that experience Right, and so he carries that weight and you know, I'm never going to have that experience Probably unless the world falls apart, right, uh, so we uh, we can gain something from that guy who said that Especially like in the way that he has to deal with other men on a team, you know When things really matter They have a different set of values that you know, there is a very old set of values And so you can get a lot from those guys and the same thing with like mma fighters and and guys who have had to go out and Take a lot of abuse and and so forth and face their fear in a certain way And you can get a lot of those guys, but I think yeah, you can you can have like a pantheon you can have a A selection Of heroes you don't have to like just try to be jocco But yeah, there also can be I mean there's a problem obviously with the intellectual world That you know you have to look to old philosophers the the new You know the new uh The academic world unfortunately is what it is. Yeah, it's uh pretty much the The establishment at this point it's the establishment and it's it's always been establishment, but uh, It's you know, very feminist and you know, very feminized kind of communist really environment And everything is justified according to those principles. Right and uh, so you don't you know, I think People aren't looking at men who want to be better at being men Aren't really looking to those guys But then you have a few stands all you have your jordan peterson's and so forth They'd have that background and are making that alive. So I mean, I know a lot of guys actually Worship jordan peterson. I get all the time. Have you heard jordan peterson? Yes? I know who he is. Thank you So and you know, I get I get a lot of guys who come to me obviously because I'm an author So, you know, I think there's a good spread you can have All those guys and you know, I would say you're a philosopher. Yeah, I would say yeah But you know, it takes guts in you know 2019 to say you're a philosopher. I mean, how many philosophers do I mean Stefan yeah calls him he's a philosopher. Yeah, and he's good at it, right and um, You know, he's not getting up at 430 and deadlifting 700 pounds, right, you know, he's He's his mind is deadlifting 700 pounds. Absolutely. Although like I would always say that I think there's a balance I think that you know, and actually a lot of those. That's why they're good to emulate a lot of the uh, you know Special forces guys are cure one guys or whatever that I've hung out with. They're actually really smart guys And they're really well read and they're actually really interested in information. Yes, very no bullshit about the information So they they don't care about all the stuff that goes around it They're like, what's the useful information? What can I take away from this because that's how they look at the world? Yes, and uh So I think that yeah, there's definitely a place for that, but I and they're very well balanced You know, they they are the killers who actually also read philosophy. Yeah, and uh, And I think that that's kind of the goal. I mean, that's where I think men should be it mean to be balanced in that way to have Yes, I'm not the strongest guy in the world, but I can be stronger But yeah, it would also be good for me to maybe read some Marcus really is you know, I can I can do both of those things And you know, America has America has this jock nerd kind of fascination especially like I was you around the 80s. I grew up in the 80s. You know, you had this jocks versus nerd thing. Yeah, and it's it's very It's very counterproductive because the best guys are both You know, the best guys are really jocks and nerds. So yeah, I'm always a little bit It rubs me the wrong way when we divide people into You know, two or three groups red pill blue pill beta alpha jock nerd And I'm finding that a lot of the alpha and beta and blue pill and red pill stuff is just kind of like a different version of jock nerd Yeah, I mean the alpha side that bugs me that the whole alpha category because alpha is a role Yeah, and I don't like to use it for that reason because you know, in a certain room You know, we could be a room with a handful of guys and I'm the alpha today And then you go to room with you know, like we had the MMA fighter downstairs and somebody's like, well, I'm not the alpha in that room And so that changes constantly and based on the the requirements of the situation and whatever So, I mean, it's it's more of a role. Obviously what they're really saying is more masculine. Yeah They what they really are selling when they're selling alpha is they're selling be more masculine Rather than be more alpha because that means that you're at the top of the heap all the time, which is never true Right. No one gets to be that forever, you know, so I think that Yeah, that that's a Simple it's it's a marketing category. Yeah, I think in many cases I think I read there was this German author who mentioned me one time or someone said that he mentioned me There's a German guy who's a German rapper and he came out with a book like Dossist alpha And he is a rapper and he's selling this alpha thing to German people and whatever It becomes kind of it becomes a character, right, you know Is it going to go away? Is it a fad? What do you think? This whole alpha beta thing is it it's hot right now Yeah, I mean, I I hope You know, that's what we're doing is that men never want to stop paying more masculine. Yeah, right Uh, I just think the alpha is an easy way. It's a shorthand for talking about that and uh It's I don't know that it's going away. I would say that it's level one I would say that it's like that's when you're a young kid and you want to Figure you're figuring things out. You you make a shorthand of it and you talk about it in that way But as you grow as an adult male, there's a little more depth. Yeah there and then you understand it better And what's going on and you're not trying to be alpha. Yeah, because it's silly. Yeah Seems like if you have to say it you're not oh if you have to say it you absolutely are Yeah, I mean, it's like any other honorific you you know, you don't give it to yourself You don't give yourself nicknames and you don't uh say I'm alpha or another thing people say I'm elite Like I'm one of the elite you are absolutely not one of the elite if you have to say yeah I've always thought that like if shit goes down in a crowd Alphas will emerge immediately like right away and it's probably not the ones running around You know with the alpha sign on their chest. Yeah. Yeah, not at all. Yeah I was a fan of the walking dead and uh When sh tf happens All the people that you think would be leaders aren't Right, you know in kind of like that post apocalyptic world which I you know being a sci-fi fan and kind of a prepper myself You know The prepper nerd that can start a fire the the guy that can start a fire with no matches Right is an alpha amongst people that oh my god. We have no matches. Yeah, or he's just high value Yeah, I mean it's just high value in certain skills And that that's the thing too. Yeah, depending on the situation different skills are valued Yeah, you know, like I mean we're at a conference and like The best speakers are valued, but it's not necessarily that that skill doesn't really matter in other situations Yeah, right. It's just a skill that someone hadn't developed. I mean, I'm good at adobe lightroom But but you know, that's not really useful skill in survival scenario, right? Uh, so it's uh, it just depends It depends on but I think One thing that does always matter and that people discount, you know, because they think the alpha stuff is being able to punch people and and use firearms and that's all good but There's the social aspect And leaders have a lot of people skills and charisma and a lot of times that's the guy He might actually be the smallest guy in the room And you know, he's not feminine But he might not he's not the scariest guy in the room. Those are not always the leaders or kings or whatever It's the guy who has the people skills to Figure out what everyone needs is everyone getting what they're needing This is everybody You know that the leadership skills are a little bit different from what people think of as alpha, right, you know Do you think the 21 convention has made a shift? Do you have you noticed a kind of a change? In the organization In the direction that we're going in have you noticed anything in the past few years? Well, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's definitely It's definitely shifting towards more of a kind of family oriented thing and and More positive Yeah, I mean it was always positive and that's why I originally accepted the invitation to speak at 21 because I I wanted to do something that was more positive and was more focused on helping men be better and I've definitely noticed that it's You know as as bleak as the world is in many ways You know things have never been perfect And so I think there's definitely been a focus of of sending men In a direction of like well, here's how to take modernity And here's how to still try and craft The life that most men want Out of that, you know the light that most men will probably want a family And because that's you know 90 of dudes, that's what they're going to want. Yeah And and so how to how to create that situation and how to still have kids and be fulfilled in that way and And you know, that's great. I mean, it's not going to work for everybody. It's not going to be the right thing for everybody but it is It's good to to keep that option open and and and also what's interesting about 21 is that they have People coming at that from different angles and different You know worldviews Because you know, there's you know, what works in one paradigm won't work another. I mean we talk with tanner all the time like if you're you know You know as a Mormon you have a setup that actually makes that facilitates that world Whereas like a guy who's not in that world We'll have a whole different set of challenges to deal with and so you have different speakers addressing it from different areas And I think that's really important as well Yeah, like when Mormons get together like a bunch of guys sit around a table and they're introducing themselves And you know the guy with the most kids is like he's the alpha of the group. They're like, whoa, you got nine kids And they're all high-fiving each other. It's like I hope someday to have nine kids Yeah, the average guy is like nine kids. Yeah. Yeah, they'll know. Yeah, but yeah, it's interesting different different scenarios Have different leaders different types of leaders. Yeah, and that's and that's respected in his world Yeah, no, absolutely. And and so it's yeah, you have to have That's why it's good to have just a different selection of these different guys who can address Different challenges. Yeah Well, we had sock on this morning. We had you on yesterday. We've got Tanner on right now. I mean All representing different things. Yeah, and just very interesting. What what a nice I don't want to say potpourri, but Honest to god, what what a nice skill word Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I think of like a basket of Stuff on a toilet A nice mix we'll just yeah a nice mix But there is a good mix of men here. Yeah a good mix of men I mean, we do have the navy seals here. We do have the Peyote mushroom guy here. We've got you know, we've got we've got a guy teaching you how to change a diaper here Yeah, I mean, there's so much going on at the 21 convention and it's not a It's not a how to get laid weekend Anymore, right, right, right. Yeah And everyone's evolving. I've noticed although that you know, that's why we say that as far as You know, it's good to move past that and understand there are other aspects of manhood, but that is an evergreen Audience like because every year there's new 18 year olds who need to go ahead and know how to get laid That's not that's not something though. It's ever going to go away. They're going to need that too. Well, there were three workshops yesterday. One was Steve the dean williams probably, you know doing his thing. Yep. It's it's you know, how to game You know, whatever and yeah, yeah goldman talking about camera game and then I was going to do something about pipe smoking and and the entire crowd of men Filled up steve's room and goldman's room and no one came to my room So we're gonna we're gonna do it at a later time outside or whatever and then as a joke. I'm gonna say Uh, you know come to my workshop How to pick up women while smoking a pipe, right? Let's just add that to it. Maybe that'll get sure Maybe that'll get a few people in there but Um, I'm finding that the evergreen. What do you think are the evergreen topics? In the men's community, obviously, you know, finding a sexual partner. Sure. I mean, that's always gonna be yeah, somebody's gonna be something um I mean, you're always gonna have the the physical fitness aspect I mean, uh, because that changes that actually facilitates the first one. Yes, and uh, you know, and also men always want to You know, they have an idealized version of themselves and that that usually includes, you know, whether you grew up with superhero comics Or whether you, you know, your vision of the ultimate man is obviously Going to look like yeah the ultimate man. So they want to become more like that. So I think physical fitness is always going to be a a component of that uh social dominance I think is also, uh, obviously a huge component of how to And that's the chat. I mean, I'd actually like to see more of that. Uh, yeah how to present yourself and actually how to, uh Negotiate situations with groups of men Yeah, uh, because that's a lot of guys actually don't have that experience right, uh guys who grow up with brothers are better at it Yeah, uh, and then uh, but guys who grow without any brothers. Yeah, a lot of times they don't Have a lot of experience interacting with groups of men and how to become How to move forward in that kind of group I think is actually really an interesting topic and I think you have to have guys who have a lot of experience in that Talk about something like that. And then obviously, you know from their Leadership is also a really good thing and a lot of people give leadership lectures But they're really aimed towards corporate audiences and right how to lead in a middle management environment Or be an entrepreneur or so and now that's good But uh, just a general leadership is that's a I mean, I had to do some leadership stuff and that's I've never done this before like how do you lead men? How do you get them on your team and how do you you know Yeah, inspire them And that that's another aspect of masculinity that uh, you know is always gonna be there. Yeah Excellent. Well, this was a good talk the phrase that stands out Already this morning killers that read philosophy I love that. Yeah talk with jack donovan. Thank you. All right. Thank you What was your experience so far with the 21 convention? Oh, I was dead. I was dead professional all across the board really good energy with a lot of people and uh, I just like because it's very positive positive direction this uh, George, this is this has been a first class event. It's fantastic You guys were in a really tight ship. I've been to a lot of conventions over the course of my business career And I can tell when things are well run and when things aren't and this is a very well run operation I was very impressed. It's pretty incredible to see where anthony's brought it Especially from last year which is my first year here and to see the the upgrades he's made. It's been incredible I've got my notebook and with every speaker. I've written down about two or three lines Under each of the speakers of just just the key prime stuff that I got that's good. That's great. It's very surreal man I'm really enjoying it. I'm happy to live in such an era Where is such a thing like this is possible? I have never seen a group of guys like this a group of 200 men were focused Squared away and working on their values just never met a bigger group of wonderful guys It's kind of neat because I've been to a fair amount of conventions in my day But you never see one where the guy's like uh here you can just see ed ladamore talking to tanner about boxing Yeah, you just sit down and then you tell your boxing experiences. Everybody's kind of pinging off each other It's yeah, it has been fantastic And it's been four days of guys all on the same page working in the same direction fascinating meaning some of the people Hearing their stories. Yep. You got people traveling from other parts of the world to come here just to see yeah some of the speakers That's amazing. The thing is impressed me. Everybody here is very serious. Yeah, they're taking it. You know close to their heart What a great convention. Thanks, George