 Good afternoon, everybody. My name is Robert Lamb. I am the director of the program on crisis conflict and cooperation here at CSIS Thank you all for coming out today We're gonna be talking about a topic that is discussed less and less in Washington. Unfortunately. We're gonna be talking about Afghanistan today You might have seen this morning that Gallup came out with a poll That shows that the majority of Americans now think that the war in Afghanistan was not worth it And that it's not a vital national security interest And that they would like us to leave completely and immediately I Recently published a report Which we looked out for the next 10 years and speculated about what US policymakers priorities are going to be over the next 10 years and Among our Conclusions was that Afghanistan will not be among the highest priorities in the region by Contrast to views of the American public and views in Washington are the views in Afghanistan itself of the Afghan people Every country that has successfully recovered from conflict and successfully transformed itself That happened due to the efforts of the people who live there themselves. And so I am pleased today to be Hosting the launch of a report That talks about Afghan civil society And the resource that they provide to their own security in the future and the support that we can provide to them Before we get to the report launch, I am very pleased that we have general John Allen to offer some remarks about Afghanistan General Allen retired US Marine Corps general is Currently a distinguished fellow at the Brookings Institution in the center on 21st century security and intelligence As you all well know General Allen was the commander of the NATO international security assistance force in Afghanistan from July 2011 through February 2013 He commanded all US and NATO troops there Knows all of the main players in Afghanistan and Pakistan Is clearly an expert on all of these issues Dr. Hedya Miramati To the to the far right there is the president of the World Organization for Resource Development and Education or word for short She is a well-regarded expert on violent extremism and works domestically and internationally To affect that set of issues While lead Ziyad is the director of the South and Central Asia projects at word Completing a PhD in history at Yale University It was writing a monograph from the early political and economic history of the Pakistan Afghanistan frontier Mehreen Farooq is a senior fellow with word She's traveled extensively extensively across Afghanistan and Pakistan interviewing hundreds of youth activists religious scholars and tribal elders To explore the issues that we're going to be talking about today General Allen needs to leave at 2 o'clock today. And so I Am going to turn the podium over to General Allen to offer some thoughts We will have probably a little bit of time for questions and answers before he has to leave And then we'll talk about the The report so thank all of you for coming today and thank you General Allen Thank You Robert. It's great to be with you today. It's and it's great to Share the podium with three very distinguished scholars, and I'd like to offer my sincere congratulations for the The work that you have done the work that is represented in this report and what I believe will be some very valuable Outcomes if we read your Recommendations closely and make an effort to to implement them I'd also like to Acknowledge the Afghans in the audience today Till I take my last breath the Afghan people will be a very precious group of people to me We served shoulder to shoulder through some very very tough times Afghanistan has paid a great price to be where it is today And I just want you to know that at least this Marine and I have thousands and thousands of others like me are with you For the long term So it's good to see you here today I Not long ago had the opportunity My headquarters sponsored a number of students At one of the high schools in Kabul. It's a school to co-ed school and Every one of the students goes on to college. It's a really remarkable place And we sponsor a number of the students and we brought them to our headquarters and they We sought to see how they're doing to tell us about their aspirations and the things that they would like to accomplish And on one occasion they brought me to oil paintings It's a liberal art school very well steeped in the arts and one of the paintings by a young Afghan gentleman who spoke perfect English Was of an Afghan who was asleep and you were you had a frontal shot of the of the face of this young man who was asleep There was a chain around his neck and the chain was fashioned in the number 2014 and you could see into his head the dreams that he was having and There was a dream of a man hanging from a gibbet and a woman in a burqa being beaten with a stick And the ruins of buildings The other picture was by one of the young ladies who was with us Who desires to be a lawyer? In her future life and that painting showed she and two of her classmates in White gowns covered Their faces covered uncovered in school very clearly enthusiastic about the learning experience that they were having And then across the middle of the painting is the number two zero one four and then you see her in the lower corner dressed in very dark robes and In dark light clearly trying to educate herself in the aftermath of 2014. I Tell you that story because 2014 is a watershed year for Afghanistan for a whole variety of reasons The first is that the election which is coming is one of the most important political events That will happen in the modern history of Afghanistan It will be the first time where the Afghan military The Afghan national security forces the police and the army will have the reach and the scope and the depth necessary to plan and secure This election in ways that we've not seen before now the international security assistance force will be helping But the preponderance of the security of this election will be in the hands of the Afghans We will see the transition of the administration that that will be elected by the press from the president who was elected in 2014 in April on the fifth from the Karzai administration to the first post Karzai administration in modern Afghanistan You will see the in large measure The the drawdown and the departure of the large Permanent presence that we had had in Afghanistan for nearly 13 years And you will see ultimately the enduring presence force remain in Afghanistan To assist in the continued development of the afghan national security forces over the long term It's a critical year And there's a lot of concern in Afghanistan about the future having had extensive experience with the afghan national security forces and having seen them in action this year in the first year in 2013 Of being in the lead operationally for the campaign Across the fighting season of 2013 and remain in the lead I can tell you that from our perspective while there is much work still to be done Work that we had hoped to do with the enduring presence force in the post 2014 period The afghan national security forces have come a very very long way And while in last year's fighting season they took heavy casualties They were in the lead Their operations were planned and led by afghans with our presence as in an advisory capacity largely And the afghan people have a great deal to be proud of In what their forces have accomplished Again much work still remains to be done And this is why it's it's absolutely critical That we are clear about our commitment to afghanistan in the post 2014 period The afghan people deserve that clarity The afghan national security forces deserve that clarity the region Deserves that clarity and our allies do as well And so the post 2014 period I think will experience an afghan national security force that afghanistan has not seen in its modern era With the continued presence of the Of the west in general and us forces in particular providing advice and support And continued professionalization to the afghan national security forces. I think we'll see a couple of things occur I think we'll see the continued Development of the afghan national security forces providing that critical security platform That will be necessary to provide the white space For the first post karzai political administration to get its legs up under it It'll be in the first year of that administration and the entire government may not yet have been fully formed by the end of 2014 Having an afghan national security force that is confident in its western support Confident in its own abilities, which are getting better each and every single day We'll provide that security platform necessary to provide that next president And his government the opportunity to come together to create capacity And to begin to move to the post karzai period The other really important contribution Of the afghan national security forces in creating a security platform and this is really important Uh something remarkable happened in tokyo in 2012 The donors conference there my term the donors conference in afghanistan for afghanistan in tokyo 2012 pledged an enormous amount of international foreign direct investment and development money Over the period of what the bond to conference ultimately called the decade of transformation And so a secure security environment in afghanistan not only gives us the ability To move to the next level of political capacity and political development. It also creates a sense of confidence Inside afghanistan for the i think the very natural entrepreneurial spirit of the afghan people to catch fire But also to maintain a close relationship with those elements in the west Those elements in the international organizations that we'll seek to invest in afghanistan over the long term Afghanistan truly has in my mind two great natural resources. The first is underground Underground and we don't know how much the value can be attributed to the Natural resources of afghanistan underground, but it's probably in the trillions with an s The extractive capacity of afghanistan's future mining industry Is really breathtaking when you think about this, but it will require security to do this The other great natural resource of afghanistan frankly is the people and in the aftermath of 9 11 and through the period of time that we have been in the struggle in afghanistan A struggle where the west and afghans were shona basona shoulder to shoulder Bleeding together Sacrificing together we've delivered afghanistan to a point today through our joint And our mutually shared sacrifices where a new generation of afghans Ultimately can face the future of afghanistan with optimism Optimism they couldn't have ever imagined During the darkness of the taliban or imagined during the period of the civil war Or during the soviet war Now much work remains to be done and this is really a very delicate moment in the future of afghanistan But I saw the emergence Of a young generation of afghans who are well educated. They're healthier They are optimistic about the future. They desire ultimately to bring afghanistan to a point where it can be not caught in the grindstone between empires But ultimately defining its own future as a sovereign state And we've come a great distance in that direction And I think the afghan national security forces if we're if we do commit over the long term and I hope we do To this afghan force Can provide the platform for us to be reasonably optimistic That the post karzai political administration and the opportunity for western development money and western investment to continue Will occur And so I offer you that view. I was there for 19 months commanded a 50 state coalition and 150 000 coalition forces I would remind all of us here that There was a great sacrifice that has been made in In support of this objective But we also have to understand the sacrifices that have been made by the afghans now for generations And they're just now beginning to see a light at the end of the tunnel our continued Cooperation our continued commitment to afghanistan is not a waste It is not Cutting our losses. It is locking in the gains that have been paid for so enormously and so Well such an enormous cost and so i'll end there robert and thank you for the opportunity To share the podium with folks who have made a very important contribution to the discussion But i'll just end with one point. I apologize civil society Is in many respects the future of afghanistan We still suffer in afghanistan from an absence of subnational governance And that is to be expected. It isn't something that will come Quickly and easily our own country had difficulties in that regard in our earliest moments But the work that has been done in afghanistan's over the last 10 years in furthering the rights of women and Furthering the opportunity for the organization of women care and health care Longevity child Morbidity Opportunities for education the rule of law Religious engagement all of those things are at a level we could not have imagined before And that has come as a direct result of the sacrifice of the individual afghan people And the afghan national security forces Supported by the west and until we were able to develop a comprehensive subnational governance our continued emphasis on the development of of Civil society and all of its many forms and shapes i think will provide the afghan people who yearn for freedom who yearn For government for you who yearn for an opportunity in human rights I think it will give them that opportunity until afghanistan's government is more fully developed over time and i'll stop there. Thank you Thank you very much general alan We have about 12 minutes for questions So i'll ask you to raise your hand if you have a question wait for the microphone. Please identify yourself and your affiliation And and i ask ne bag that you keep your question as a brief question and not give a speech So that we can get as many questions as we can on the floor So we'll begin up front here. Please wait for the microphone Hello, and thank you all for being here today. My name is christine vargas And i had the privilege of supporting women for afghan women in the summer of 2011 My question revolves around The upcoming election i have several friends at democracy international who will be monitoring in uh What kind of? tenor Are we going to see amongst the population in regards to? The election and feel free to comment as liberally or as narrowly as you wish and thank you And i'm going to take a second question to aggregate them Shafi Sharifi from alliance in support of the afghan people a non-profit agency dedicated to protecting the gains of the afghan people my question would be Beyond 2014 if the bsa doesn't happen How do you see the impact on the afghan national security forces? Thank you, sir I think in terms of the election As i mentioned in my comments the afghan national security forces have reach And depth and capacity that we could not have imagined in 2009 election So i think just in terms of the breadth Of the country that we'll be able to vote now there there will be A greater participation by the afghan people I also think that there is because president cars. I cannot serve another term There is pretty significant interest on the part of the afghan people In participating not just in this democratic process, but also getting on with the building the building of a democracy You know, they really yearn for it and actually Democracy comes naturally to them the tribal council the concept of the shura all of those things I think In my own experience with afghans Uh, and most recently when I was departing in 2013 They were looking forward to the opportunity for this election. They were concerned about security. I mean, there's still many unknowns about security I think your average afghan is really getting excited maybe an overstatement of the term but but is interested in participating in this democratic process as an afghan citizen in ways we have not seen before which I think is is very important If we don't get the bsa president obama has been very clear That he will not leave american troops after uh, afghanistan after 2014 The message should be very clear and I was standing there when he said that twice to president carzai in a press conference If the us goes I think we can be pretty confident that nato will go And if the us and nato goes I think we can be pretty confident that a willingness by the international community To invest in afghanistan or to commit Very scarce increasingly scarce development dollars to afghanistan Will be chilled dramatically I think the an sf is a very well trained force relatively speaking given its its age Um, I believe that we will see Uh absent American and western trainers. I think we will see resources still made available to the an sf funding and weapons systems available to them that we That were denied ultimately when the soviet union collapsed and the funding dried up and that was the beginning of the end of the post soviet afghan national security force So You know my sense is and and I I don't know where president carzai is on this issue at this particular moment Whether he intends to sign the bsa or as he has said we'll leave it to his successor I think thankfully uh, all of his successors potential successors seem to be Favorably disposed or predisposed To getting on with the signature We within the us are doing all of the contingency planning necessary to be able to deploy rapidly that enduring force if necessary Now we reach a point where we can't But we still have months before that period arrives So I think absent American or western presence two things would occur. We'd probably continue the resourcing Of the an sf and as necessary my guess would be we would bring large numbers of afghans afghan security Army or police personnel out of the country to be trained elsewhere and to be reinserted back into the force We'll be very innovative to lock in these gains rather than appear to be cutting our losses very important questions though And thank you. Thanks. Let's um, I want to take two more questions. Please start with dug And I'll ask again to please keep your questions brief and identify yourself Hi, Doug Brooks afghan american chamber of commerce I great comments I agree with you fully on I think the military and the police Improvement that we've seen But the sort of third leg of the triad of course is the appf the afghan public protection force And that's who the private sector relies on for their security and it's a rather unfortunate Organization that is definitely not getting any better And anybody who's going to invest there needs this needs better security And it used to be done privately the appf seems to be the wrong way to go Is there any possibility that that will be replaced with the with the new president? Thanks Doug. Good. Let's take one more question in the back there. Um, young lady in the middle, please Hi, eva smith. My question is how can the us Engage uh parts of civil society that are tech uh traditionally more conservative And do not necessarily align with the interests of the united states But are still important members of civil society and the overall goal of working with these types of groups Would help, you know empower civil society. How do we deal with that as the united states? Thank you. Thank you very much. Why don't we leave that to them because I think I think this very well says it actually, um I'm I'm guess i'm partially guilty for the appf. I arrived in afghanistan About 45 days before I realized if it wasn't up and running, you know, everything shut down The appf is is uh for those of you who are unaware president carzai I think properly made the decision that all private security companies had to go away Because of concerns of predatory behavior and corruption that sort of things not all of them were some of them were Some of them many of them weren't but the decision was made ultimately to Replace them with the afghan public protection force, which is an entity within the mo I And it is a state-owned enterprise actually And the intent would be that if you want to do business in afghanistan You contract for your site and convoy security through the appf um Afghanistan still is a state a nation where Western bureaucracies are difficult to adapt to Difficult to embrace and the the idea of The afghans within the appf and the ministry of interior Being able to write Industry standard contracts For security was was frankly very difficult and and I provided Well over 100 advisors into the appf to sit right next to the desk with the afghan to help the process because the I couldn't stop the clock. It was coming straight at us The personal private security companies are going out of business so So as with all things associated with complicated bureaucratic processes That is that is not an indigenous process With any country, but in this case afghanistan It's going to take time obviously to build this kind of efficiency into the contracting process So that it does meet industry standards and Those who might do business through the chamber of commerce or be interested through the chamber of commerce can have us A level of confidence that the business practice in and of itself is correct and second that the The troops themselves who are securing convoys who are or are protecting sites That they are sufficiently well trained and are professional Enough that we can rely on them to provide a level of security more work still remains to be done. I doubt That we would see a new president change that but I wouldn't given whoever it might be we might see that He might be open to some number of vetted Secured bonded private security companies. He might be willing to consider that there are still some I think if we have diplomats here Private security companies that are protecting diplomatic missions But those have got to be vetted. They've got to be secure. They've got to be bonded and that sort of thing So we may see a requirement to do that. But my guess is It would be difficult to walk that whole process back. We just need to invest in getting the process right John yeah, you have about 30 seconds left before you need to take off Do you have any final thoughts you'd like to share with us? Well again Much work has been done much sacrifice has been made on the part of Both our people Americans more broadly the west And our afghan our dear afghan allies and partners I remain cautiously optimistic That the the future is bright for the afghan people and when I look into the faces of the young men and women of afghanistan Who have emerged in the era since the taliban The young girls who are skipping off to school every single day with a backpack on their backs to go to school And to come home and they're being well educated It fills me with a level of confidence That frankly I didn't have uh when I Initially arrived in afghanistan in the july of 11. What changed so dramatically was that the an sf Are embracing the burden of the protection of the people and when the afghan people are protected they can do Remarkable things and I think uh if we remain committed we remain engaged Afghanistan's trajectory can be up If we do not remain engaged i'm uncertain frankly about the future, but I will always be with the afghan people General allen it's nice to have you just down the street from us. Um, I appreciate your your continued dedication to afghanistan And thank you very much for coming out today to share your thoughts with honor to be with you. Thank you As general allen makes his way out. Um, I'll ask you to respect his time Um, I would like to invite um, hedja mirah mati To who is going to present the uh, I guess the the findings and uh, um and results of their study on afghan civil society Um, and um, I will turn it over to you. Would you like to stand up here? Oh, do you want me to? It's entirely up to you Is that where the clicker is too? Yeah, I'm gonna give it to her I don't know if I can roll and talk at the same time. So hello everyone Thank you for being here with us today. Thank you robert and csis for hosting us and thanks to general allen for sharing his comments and his wisdom um, I also uh, so of course we're all here today because we agree that a secure and prosperous future for afghanistan is critical Not only for regional stability, but for us national security as well So over the past 12 years the us achievements in afghanistan has been remarkable as general allen mentioned in areas of public health Education and of course of women's rights However, despite investing almost 650 billion dollars Insecurity and terrorism continues to plague the country As we look at the horizon beyond 2014 the us and the international community will need to find Economic and effective ways of containing the growth and militancy in the region As well as protecting those important development investments that we have made already in the country Over the past weeks much of the discussion in dc is focused on the bsa the bilateral security agreement And of course the upcoming presidential elections and these issues are very important But what we have to keep in mind is that recruitment into violent extremism is essentially a bottom up phenomena Regardless of the number of troops we employ or the outcome of the elections our investments over the past decade Will be jeopardized unless we strengthen local actors and their ability to lead grassroots peace building efforts Our report afghanistan 2014 and beyond the role of civil society in peace building and countering violent extremism Suggest that a more robust Focused civil society engagement strategy is a critical part of afghanistan's long-term future So having traveled to over 35 cities and villages across afghanistan The word research team determined that many afghan civil society actors have both the will and the fortitude To engage in peace building initiatives and even further good news is that we don't have to reinvent the wheel There are groups on the ground who've already created viable models that we can scale and replicate Some of those programs have been done with international support But interestingly there are many others which collectively represent an untapped reservoir of indigenous talent And resources for combating violence. There are many notable civil society endeavors in afghanistan, but our our Efforts are focused on those specifically geared to peace building encountering violent extremism We will outline for you some of the best practices to date The challenges many of them face in programming and some recommendations for overcoming those challenges We also explore how the us and the international community Can best leverage the efforts of both faith-based and non-faith-based actors and local afghan organizations In addition to the report, we have published a directory exclusively for stakeholders Which includes over a hundred civil society groups from human rights organizations to madrasa networks With detailed entries on their capacity and geographic scope So there are several aims to our research First let's safeguard our development investments as coalition forces withdraw US funded reconstruction projects may become inaccessible for a lot of american officials to safely visit Therefore, many of the civil society actors Especially in the more remote regions can be valuable partners for the monitoring and evaluation Of us government funded or internationally funded programs And many parts of afghanistan Particularly in the rural areas the central government has limited influence Instead it is these local civil society actors from the social workers to the religious leaders Who are better placed to address the basic needs of their community Partnering with them would also be a great way to cultivate local support for us government funded initiatives Second we wanted to call attention to the capacity of what we call traditional muslim networks that remain under utilized Although many us government initiatives have tried to bring in a very diverse group of afghan participation at the conferences or initiatives Many important civil society actors are still left out as a recent report by usip indicates Excluding or limiting civil society input not only rewards groups that use violence or abuse their political influence It also reduces the public ownership of the peace process and the political will require to implement it For this reason our analysis places a lot of emphasis on religious leader engagement Third we hope to raise the public profile of effective efforts on the ground And encourage the continued investment in the afghan people by prioritizing funding to strengthening civil society We provide some history and context of what has already been done in the field And encountering violent extremism specifically so program managers had a good starting point for further engagement with these groups For more in-depth discussion of our findings of our report. I will hand it over to words director of south and central asia programs Walid ziyad You also feel you can't roll Something about the two things side by side. Um, thank you very much. Um, bop. Thank you so much for putting this together It's a real honor to have been there with general allen at the same podium This research is part of a regional study which we began in pakistan in 2010 Over the past two years. We've been conducting field work in afghanistan and we traveled to 15 Provinces really in the north from herat to badakhshan In the south including uruz gone and really all the way up to the torkhan border in the east We met with community activists Religious leaders and tribal elders with the aim of assessing civil society's potential To a lead peace building non-violent conflict resolution and national reconciliation efforts Be promoting democratic ideals and countering radical narratives within a culturally appropriate paradigm as hadya was alluding to and see Ministering humanitarian aid and development assistance in conflict areas today there are More than 4,700 officially registered civil society organizations operating in afghanistan And although the vast majority of them were created within the past decade It's important to note that afghanistan civil society is by no means a recent construct Uh, historically the foundation of afghan civil society Was formed by community-based shuras, which are councils by jergahs, which are tribal associations of elders And by traditional muslim networks, which are comprised of shia and sunni scholars And cultural thought leaders local leaders who ascribe to one of the classical schools of islamic jurisprudence Now the first phase of secular civil society development began under king zahesh shah's new democracy the 64 constitution Um, and concurrently you had the development of political islamist organizations Which are very distinct from the mostly apolitical traditional muslim networks that we just referred to Um, these were influenced generally by muslim brotherhood baksans jamaat islami, etc Uh, a second wave of secular organizations then emerged in the 1980s and 1990s Many of them amongst the daspera community in places like bishallah and pakistan The most recent stage has been shaped by organizations created after 2001 Including women's interest groups, sports, uh, institutes, educational institutions, media, and the list goes on These organizations form the bulk of those that are currently registered with the um, With the afghan government, of course, there are many more unregistered ones And they have received considerable international support Now you'll note that for the purposes of this research, we've adopted a broad definition of civil society Which includes religious institutions as well as tribal networks, both of which remain understudied Now as all of us, uh, I'm sure know tribal networks play an essential role, especially in the bashtun regions Tribal elders can resolve conflicts between families and tribes Mediate between tribes the afghan government and the taliban They can help reintegrate former militants And even foster public support for activities from development programs really all the way to elections that we're seeing now Despite their pivotal role, many tribal leaders that we interviewed, and this is from uruzgan all the way up to gundas Uh, felt that they were underutilized by the PRTs and the government Um, I'll give you an example of a tribal elder from the south who in fact was a former mujahideen who had fought, uh, beside Ahmad Shah Masood Uh, he had mentioned that he had tried to form a council of tribal leaders to provide development agencies with suggestions for projects But was ultimately denied, uh, because it just so happened the provincial power brokers believe the council would have ceded too much authority to tribal structures This kind of sidelining of tribal elders, which we often see threatens to disrupt Afghanistan's fragile social structures The second segment of civil society, which deserves further exploration is traditional muslim networks, which perform three key roles First, uh, institutions like mosques are powerful communications platforms Using the power of the pulpit imams can address a range of issues from human rights all the way to corruption and good governance Uh, second, uh, religious scholars can easily diffuse sources of conflict within their community and even mediate conflict Between militants and their communities Their strength, of course, lies in putting it all within a cultural paradigm that's palatable to local populations Third, uh religious leaders are uniquely positioned to mobilize support for post-conflict reconstruction programs Their institutions can even serve as depots to distribute aid to more insecure regions As we mentioned earlier, traditional muslim institutions have for centuries Served as a foundation for afghanistan civil society and really at their core they promote Social cohesion quite simply by bringing together communities from diverse ethnic and socioeconomic backgrounds So what do their institutions look like? shrines, um honoring saints and luminaries are amongst the most popular cultural landmarks in afghanistan today Uh every day thousands of shia and sunni pilgrims flock to shrines like mazara sharif Major shrines will host cultural events. Um, and some are the few spaces in which women can socialize in the public sphere Some of the ones we visited, uh, this is outside of gabo and some of the major cities, um Some of the ones we visited like hassan abdal valley, which is two hours north of of gabo have appointed days for women and uh, you'll find several hundred women in attendance at these, uh, at these shrines As such they can be important venues to disseminate positive messages and to counter narrow exclusionary conceptions of islam Uh, they can also serve as a safe space where vulnerable segments of the community can seek support The caretaker of the 11th century pilgrimage site of raja abdul lansari In herat, uh, explained for example that when a male member of their community Developed a drug addiction. Uh, the community provided his wife refuge at the shrine for weeks until he was Rehabilitated and we have many stories like this Centers for cultural and spiritual development known as hanikas, um host weekly events. They're very popular, uh, Which feature meditation or poetry recitations? Um, or the performance of sacred music Now in addition to providing social services and welfare assistance to the poor Hanikas often hold, uh, debaticalization and drug use interventions within their own framework and terminology Uh, remarkable example i'll share with you which we recorded from the very historic moududi chishti hanika in herat That's very influential across south asia historically Uh, when unemployed youth in helmand, uh, were being recruited by the taliban Their families requested that this hanika in herat, which is two provinces away really One third of the way across the country Conduct an intervention Within days the hanika was able to tap into its network and then find employment And financial support for the young men Uh, madrasas, uh, as i'm sure all of us also know have traditionally been the primary vehicle for religious education in afghanistan As of 2011 there were approximately 700 registered madrasas But there are thousands that remain unregistered with crumbling infrastructure in many cases Now teachers are very concerned and this is something that we heard across the board That some communities may accept funds from abroad, uh, to build up their schools And this may and has been in some cases change the ideological landscape of afghanistan A kunar province, uh, nuristan both of them are very, uh, well known cases where foreign funding has Increased takfirism and this is the belief that someone who does not ascribe to a particular Uh, um form of islam is outside the pale of the religion and in the worst case, uh, Vajib al-qatal or worthy of being killed So while traditional muslim networks offer many opportunities there are, um, four key challenges amongst of course many others Uh, that they face which we really should keep in mind in developing an engagement strategy going forward And this addresses a question starts to address a question that we had earlier on Uh, first of all afghan traditional muslim leaders are not as well networked as their counterparts in other muslim countries Uh, for example, just across the border in pakistan, um religious institutions will coordinate resources Amongst their affiliated soup kitchens madrasas welfare organizations, etc political parties and and list goes on Um next during the soviet occupation many networks were dismantled scholars were killed tortured or exiled Many hanikas were destroyed while libraries and cultural landmarks, uh became derelict and then many, uh, Bax which are charitable endowments that sustain some of these institutions were also dissolved So today many communities have to rely on meager local donations Then this is a very important point But given social norms, we cannot expect traditional muslim leaders to see eye to eye with us on sensitive issues For example, like women's role in the public sphere Um, instead we have to find areas that we do agree on like national reconciliation or women's education And there are numerous traditional madrasas which have, uh, women's branches with hundreds of women's in attendance that we had the fortune of visiting Um, and then once we Once we address these issues, then we can move on to more sensitive issues after building trust The other challenge comes from violent extremists who have recently targeted Traditional muslim networks denounced cultural practices and have physically assaulted pilgrims at shrines There are a handful of responses to this scholars from northwestern apanistan, for example Have formed the shura and matisawifine Which is a council of 50 prominent personalities and thought leaders Who aim to organize events to preserve, uh, authentic apan culture and spirituality and to raise awareness about the issue of violent extremism Um, now historically the religious landscape of apanistan was a fluid mix of local islamic practices Um, and tribal customs which were shaped in many ways by these traditional muslim networks that we're discussing Um, but by the 70s, uh, like in, um, other countries egypt and south asia political islamism began to appeal to Uh, disenfranchised urban middle classes and others And the story of apanistan zihwani parties, uh, as they're referred to during the soviet war Um, is probably familiar to most of us so won't get into details and probably most of us are also familiar with the Violence and human rights abuses, uh, that many groups were engaged in in the civil war period Uh, these uh, um islamist zihwani parties have, uh, recently reemerged in interesting flavors Um, a familiar example is Hizbe islami, i'm sure many of us have heard of of what's happened in this case where you have one faction that's, uh Join the government and adopted very progressive stances such as women's education And then another little fuel militant opposition Today there's a prevalent concern that if some of these groups come to power They may abandon some of their progressive rhetoric on democracy and human rights, but the verdict is still out Now with that overview of the actors, uh, we'll now look at peace building and cve initiatives carried out by local organizations We'll give you a glimpse of the broad range of methods and channels that have been used. Um, some of them very innovative Um, particularly how indigenous tools and resources are employed We'll begin with programs to prevent sectarianism, which many abran community leaders fear could fuel further violence As it has in iraq and syria Uh, one of the popular nationwide responses came from scholars who formed a council of over 100 Uh, well respected sunni and shia leaders known as the islamic brotherhood council Members issue public statements or organize small demonstrations of social solidarity and i'll give you an example Some of us may remember this When the revered shia cultural landmark honoring has a tabulfaz al-abbas Was attacked in 2012 the council pledged their support to the shia community Other initiatives are less institutionalized. Uh, for example in kabo religious scholars and academics and radio personalities will convene at has a taminsal bansari, which is also a major pilgrimage site To discuss how to disseminate messages of tolerance within friday sermons and on other public platforms a conflict resolution is another key type of cve program because local and Uh, land disputes or tribal disputes often feed militancy if left unresolved Uh, these types of disputes were traditionally handled by councils of community leaders or elders One particularly effective example of how this traditional mechanism can be scaled up comes from herat Where hundreds of imams congregate at the jami mosque to resolve community concerns and what's remarkable about this This program is that you often have these programs televised and local scholars who are participating will take lessons learned to their particular communities There are several several secular organizations funded by usip us a id Like ptr o and kapow which have also designed excellent peace and conflict resolution trainings to bolster these kinds of grassroots mediation efforts social welfare assistance to at-risk communities is A very important part of a holistic cve strategy and this is really to counter this hezbollah type strategy of providing aid In order to win recruits There are dozens of avgan cso's from senai development all the way to Local ones like cabels has had to shamsire haneqa That will provide food and humanitarian assistance to thousands However, most grassroots initiatives are not institutionalized and more sustainable efforts are required To target communities that are particularly being courted by militants Cs those are also developing innovative initiatives from public murals to Street theater to address issues of drug abuse and small arms proliferation both of which fuel militancy Radio public awareness campaigns have also been developed by radio ke lid and others to inform the communities at the national or at regional levels But you also have grassroots organizations like the nangarhar based association for solving community problems That's developed door-to-door arms reduction campaigns Now we noted in this case that personalized interventions at religious institutions were particularly effective In jilalabad, for example, a mulbina jibullah brings together local imams community leaders and youth activists To develop collective solutions for drug users. They'll arrange rehabilitation programs again to the best of their ability And for arms dealers, they will offer alternative employment If the initial intervention fails the team then invites a large group of scholars in who then literally bombard them with theological arguments And if all else fails, then they'll turn to local government officials poetry remains One of the most powerful mediums of communication and social commentary in afghanistan Anyone who's taken a local taxi in mazhar ishari, for example, will know that even cab drivers use classical poetry in political critiques It's very common everywhere Across the country communities are organizing public events to explore principles of tolerance in the works of afghanistan's native famed poets notably molana rumy balki And these are In developing positive narratives that change intolerant ideologies And then you have organizations like the foundation for culture and civil society, which organize Poetry recitals and qawali musical performances on a very large scale, which were previously banned under the taliban So now marine i'll turn it over to you. I believe you will discuss some of the best practices and recommendations I think it's probably best I sit and man the mouse since that's my official role today Okay, so there are several channels in afghanistan through which Community groups are disseminating messages to promote good governance anti corruption Human rights women's education All of these issues which end up building resilience against armed opposition groups The first are religious institutions, which will leave had spoken Extensively on now to better disseminate information about these key issues in mosques and madrasas There are several notable religious leader training programs such as jimila afghani's well known Training program on women's rights The second channel is the media While many of us are familiar with afghan tv programs that promote democracy It's really afghanistan's over 150 radio stations which are playing an important role particularly in rural areas Organizations such as equal access have developed radio dramas in partnership with local religious scholars Framing peace building within a cultural context. And finally there is a number of alternative channels The grassroots youth theater jalalabad for example uses street theater to promote nonviolent conflict resolution So let's say if there's a conflict over water rights The organization will perform a play and then they engage the audience in a live discussion as to How they would resolve the issue within their community Now in our fieldwork, we identified numerous best practices for instance We found that programs were most successful when they used a culturally appropriate framework to address sensitive social issues In fact, it's noteworthy that the afghanistan branch of plan parenthood. Yes, there is one there Has addressed reproductive health issues for nearly four decades By engaging these issues within an Islamic framework Still there is a concern that civil society is a foreign construct and Is sort of created by foreign Actors to undermine Islamic principles. So to maintain credibility Even some secular organizations have created partnerships with religious scholars to publicly sanction their work In fact, usa id had also done something similar by airing public service announcements, which had involved religious scholars To discuss about the importance of civil society Second programs tend to be successful when local communities had the ownership of the initiative Several of the programs we studied were funded by the u.s government But interestingly, none were branded as such and appeared to be completely locally driven Third many organizations only tend to go through the ministry of hajj and religious affairs To identify religious leaders to work with And we found that Initiatives tend to get the most reach when they go beyond these state networks So individuals associated with state like linked mother says or mosques even the high peace council tend to have limited Credibility, especially again in the rural areas So while engaging these groups can't be avoided It's important to keep in mind that amongst Afghans There is a distinction between mullah der bari or the state religious officials and the more trusted local religious leaders Additionally, islamist groups that were implicated in the crimes of the civil war and thala ban era are similarly tainted in the public eye Fourth we found that counter narratives resonated strongest when they were supported by renowned international religious scholars Two years ago word cosponsored conferences with george mason and boston university Which had not worked over 200 afghan religious leaders with international scholars big names like dr Tahir al-qadri sheikh ali goma of egypt the head mufti of bosnia and so on all whom word had invited During the conferences the participants developed a fatwa against terrorism and suicide bombing now interestingly for security purposes When the fatwa was aired on the radio the names of the local actors had actually been omitted But many of the civil society groups that we met with still cited the fatwa because of the authoritative weight of the international figures associated with it In fact while many faith-based networks we met with were hesitant to engage with foreign governments directly They specifically requested that organizations like word engage them given their respect for the scholars in our networks Finally, we found that involving local civil society organizations in peace building tends to be successful once trust That once we fostered trust building and once we've met the basic needs of the community Even simple roads and wells which we have invested quite a bit of money in Can be inexpensive relatively speaking and can go a long way in terms of buying community support So there are several challenges that civil society activists continuously highlighted in our research security of course has prevented a project implementation and monitoring and has also made it difficult for locals to organize public awareness campaigns about extremism In fact, if the bsa remains unsigned In the u.s. Ward to pursue something close to the zero option. This could significantly jeopardize new efforts on the ground In addition talking about militancy and Talibanization in Afghanistan is a delicate issue because there is no real consensus on Who the enemy is? There's much confusion as to who's behind attacks who's linked to whom and essentially our research indicates that violent extremism Sorry violent anti-state activism has taken a variety of forms. So of course we have the thala ban, which are quite decentralized Then you have independent militias foreign-based militant groups And then you have the militant islamists like hizbah islami guldedine Who as we know recently coordinated the attack in gobble, which had killed 13 foreigners And finally there are the non-violent extremists that espouse an intolerant interpretation of sacred texts That foment ethnic or sectarian conflict So in short due to the myriad of actors, it's difficult for activists to develop counter narratives Despite these complications. There is at least a consensus that Groups killing civilians trying to create ethnic discord and those who are engaging in the kfir particularly pitting shias against Sunnis That these issues can be starting points to frame narratives against extremism Media and communication networks also remain underdeveloped throughout the countries. There are fewer opportunities for organizations to speak out And there's also significant misconceptions of civil society objectives despite some of the initiatives. I highlighted earlier Corruption nepotism are also cited as significant problems Another common complaint is that the international community is still limited Largely to engaging with english-speaking cobble-based civil society activists Financial viability is of course a chief concern. Many registered cso's are reliant on international funding and many have developed donor dependency And if funding were to be significantly cut It could have a very drastic impact on vanesan civil society We're likely to see High increase in unemployment particularly amongst youth as well as fewer peaceful outlets for people to air their political and social grievances Finally the vast majority of afghan cso still lack institutional capacity Addressing this will take time and activists suggested that programs like the one mandi And usa id's initiative to promote afghan civil society that these are great programs that should be continued So what are our next steps our interviews offered a number of recommendations specifically for peace building and encountering violent extremism First groups recommended that we go local by engaging community leaders in peace building initiatives This is something that development experts noted worked really well With funding community development councils or cdcs So basically for any local scheme like an irrigation project The government would provide a certain percentage of funding and the community would have to raise the rest So you had imams fundraising on the pulpit and tribal leaders in their public gatherings According to one of the development experts that we had interviewed who had been monitoring these programs These projects also help offset radicalization Interesting connection because people want to retain ownership of the projects and don't want to succeed the authority to the extremists Secondly activists suggested that we go rural So currently the debate on afghanisans future has generally uh been limited to cobbles urban elite We can encourage the development of neutral apolitical third spaces like universities that can bring together local civil society activists to contribute to the discussion on afghanisans future In addition, we need more civil society leaders outside of their urban centers to participate in major state building conferences and discussions Something again to keep in mind if there is another tokyo urban conference Third it's important to diversify religious engagement to include apolitical Traditional muslim groups that have the grassroots credibility and are which are not associated with earlier war crimes Finally youth should be included in all aspects of peace building This is a particularly important reminder considering that 68 of the population is below the age of 25 So in expanding our base of partners more refined screening processes will naturally be required Which taken to account to organization and individuals past history Participants should be sought out who have consistently denounced terrorism suicide bombing anti-state activities As we mentioned earlier, we may not always see eye to eye with these groups But it's important to at least identify those who um ascribe to shared values And in working with former militants extra vigilance will be required To make sure that they don't say one thing publicly and another thing privately In fact, one of our interviews with an international NGO after a long discussion With an aid worker about religious leader engagement in public health issues We were really surprised when he turned around and told us how happy he was to meet young muslims working on these issues And he recommended that when we return To the us that we could set up a muslim organization like al qaeda The same way the great sheik wasama did so as you can imagine We were quite shocked that someone with such extremist views was working openly with a well respected international organization Needless to say we ended that interview quickly So all this of course requires that our cultural competency training efforts like the excellent afpac hands programs and others need to be scaled up afghan community leaders agree that if more Foreign personnel had received such training. It could have reduced cultural offenses Could have reduced distrust and even green on blue attacks Furthermore, we should have training modules on identifying radical ideologies and the roots of violent extremism So that officials that are engaged in outreach can better identify partners Our report also goes into some detail regarding international efforts to engage civil society groups So from IVLP exchanges that are organized through the state department to capacity building and a mom training programs Now while these efforts have been very well received We need to develop follow-up initiatives starting perhaps with the graduates of these programs To really forge a network of peace builders who can ultimately develop national campaigns One area which will require special attention will be networking between faith based and the secular organizations which to date rarely collaborate Finally community leaders constantly ask that Afghan Afghanistan civil society be networked with their international counterparts Particularly from countries like indonesia, turkey, pakistan all of which are facing similar issues of either insurgencies or violent extremism So civil society organizations still need institutional capacity development The most common needs expressed to us are listed here um And I just like to stress that training should also include guidance on becoming eligible for funding from international donors, particularly as we move forward One of the main impediments for local organizations to access international funding is the size of grants Smaller organizations, which are based out of Kabul said that they tend to lack the capacity to carry out larger projects Or simply to even compete with bigger organizations They said that they would prefer to have micro grants, which could be better managed and less susceptible to corruption And they also recommended reducing complicated reporting requirements extending grant durations beyond one to two years and even expediting grant allocations And finally given the quick turnover of us government staff in Kabul We need mechanisms to ensure continuous engagement with civil society actors that we have been working with Despite the difficulties of the past 12 years, there are a host of organizations that are still interested in receiving support from the international community As we mentioned many of the groups we met with insisted that we work with them So I'll just end here and add that we encourage policymakers and the community here to refer to our our resources And ultimately we hope that this can help foster increased civil society engagements beyond 2014 Great. Thank you very much While all of you are formulating your questions or figuring out how to make them more concise I will begin just by throwing out there what um What do you foresee given given the American public attitudes? Given the the political The political will that's been declining pretty rapidly in washington The strong likelihood that attention is going to continue to wane Um from the international community in afghanistan over the next few years Could you spill out for us a little bit what your concerns are? and maybe bound them in in terms of It's a reasonably rosy but realistic scenario given the declining political will and what's your biggest fear last year, um, obviously We have to keep in mind that there's many many positive sides to elections and people are very excited about it But obviously there's there's trepidation when change happens We're going to have obviously two sets of elections at the leadership level and then at the Parliamentary level as well eventually In the last year this compounded with 2014 and the possibility of pullout You've already started seeing a lot of local organizations which are less likely to engage the matter of extremism directly So it's very hard in the last let's say eight to 12 months to name names anymore because There's an uncertainty about which names may be out there after the elections and god forbid if There is any further conflicts that emerge. You may have retaliation after the fact Then of course, there's the simple issue of the correlation between funding, uh, true presence Um elections as well and that obviously people have started to feel that in fact almost for the last 24 months Uh, you have a lot of cso's who have been in this in this mode drawing down a lot of their operations. Um, At the same time, uh, well again, we'd like to be positive about it We do have faith that there will be members of the international community who especially after the tokyo commitments Will devote a substantial portion or a good portion of the 16 billion towards these kind of objectives In the end, I guess what I need to what I'm trying to say here is that it's not a It's not a uh, multi trillion dollar enterprise engaging civil society. Um, you don't necessarily need Budgets of countries. You don't necessarily need to go into a deficit situation to solve this problem It's just some smart maneuvers and using money wisely I'd also like to call attention to the um The importance of the countering violent extremism portfolio for the u.s. Government. So, um, I had one u.s. Official tell me is he said it's about to go stratospheric Um, with the 200 million dollar global fund created by donor countries With the united states involved the global counterterrorism forum the creation of the hadaya center in ua e I think the issue of Building resilience against militancy in afghanistan will continue to be important It'll come it'll continue to be an important u.s. National security interest. And so, um, it's it was important for us to Have people realize that the um, the religious leader engagement is such an important part of the cve portfolio and hoping that We'll continue that investment. Um Going forward. Okay. Thanks. Um, uh, please wait until I call on you. Um, and until the microphone gets uh gets to you Um, and uh, please identify yourself and keep your question short George knuckles and a policy consultant for counterterrorism special operations You alluded to it, uh, bob And your last answer in the question But I look back what happened to us in vietnam We pulled out but we said we'll go ahead and we'll provide all the logistic support and funding for the national security forces Are you two years later congress said pox me on your house and cut off all the funding You can talk about, you know, this isn't that expensive an enterprise But all your recommendations have to operate Under your security umbrella And my concern is maybe you can talk to it more that what's happened in the past of the american public and congress saying What's the national interest of this and if you pull out that kind of support Then how critical are all your recommendations having to operate under security? Blanket whether it be isaaf or now the afghan security Thanks, george This issue actually comes up quite a bit and I um, I'd like to say that our researchers They went without with absolutely no security. So, um, I I understand the importance of building a road and bringing like a Tractor from japan and and all of those pieces that require a military convoy To execute. Um, the kind of projects we're talking about do not require security So these are small local initiatives at building up a hanukkah social welfare capacity Building up a imam training program and these don't require a lot of security because Internally amongst community members. They don't need security against one another So it's only the it's only the influx of foreigners that somehow brings a very very serious Security component. I mean, that's my impression. I don't know if you guys have if I can just add something We have models on the ground of groups that have really functioned very well under under difficult security situations With no security with with very little security islamic relief is one of them and So you will have these groups which are actually I mean they will approach a community and you will have communities where It's very difficult to differentiate between who may be pro-state anti-state thalaban anti-thalaban And then really in those gray spaces in between But there's certain needs which I think a lot of communities share and this is really where the building blocks Uh emerge. I mean this is this is conventional wisdom in development, right? I mean, I think a lot of development specialists will will tell you that this is really how you go about dealing with conflict zones But I think first of all we should put aside I mean we should keep the fear and the security elements. I mean in in check we have to be realistic Uh, but at the same time we should realize that there are whole areas that we can work in without again these tractors and and huge military installations Okay, let's get another question. Um gentlemen on the side, please Hi, I'm uh Dennis scotch. I'm a consultant for lmi logistics management institute and a veteran of the u.s. Foreign service um The buzzword now in washington policy Circles the deal with foreign operations of this type of the type in afghanistan Is partnering and i'm not at all cynical about that. I think that's a that's a good concept to work toward partnering Well Now it seems to me there's a there's a dilemma. I'd like your thoughts about it And the dilemma is this if you if you partner then then of course you play into the uh concern that um What you're doing is is a foreign manipulated process and if you don't then some of the Some of the drawbacks that local institutions have funding institutional sophistication of development Work to limit their effectiveness. So so how You referred to a few examples of partnering usa id usip. How do you how do you kind of work within that dilemma if it Maybe called that. Thank you, sir I think this really boils down to certain issues of cultural competency When we talk about these uh various programs across in fact, let's say across the world where you're having problems of extremism. Um Our philosophy is that local groups on the ground have been dealing with the problem of radicalization and extremism A lot harder and a lot longer than we have We found this in pakistan as well, uh, where you have Local communities who actually then face the fire of radicalization. I mean, they're the ones who the recruitment comes out of We've seen this in afghanistan. We've seen this in other parts of the muslim world And they have certain answers now the answers are not perfect The answers are not comprehensive. They're not the complete perfect answers that we're looking for But they have answers that they can actually that they want some support on And then one can offer them certain institutional support to make those answers more proactive and more effective So there are many ways of actually creating change on the ground without having the The stamp of your respective foreign government And I think a lot of groups have done that and I this is actually something we have seen internationally that in Many cases the u.s. Government and various agencies have or let me put it the other way around we see fantastic projects that You know reek of being local projects And later on, you know It's determined that it's funded by us the id you are funded by this or funded by that So it is possible. It's it's not an unsurmountable obstacle A simple example one of the schools in in pakistan has a network of schools has asked us, you know, we are competing with the You know gulf funded extremist schools. We don't have modern resources. We need textbooks. Can you give us math and science textbooks? I mean that's not it has nothing to do with the, you know, u.s. government stamp or seal in a project It's just helping them to compete against the resources of well funded extremist groups So little micro projects like that that can have a tremendous impact on their ability To keep and maintain students for example broader observation just Globally from conflict and and looking at subnational governance and subnational conflict worldwide If if there is a community in the middle of afghanistan And the people living who live in that community are still alive Despite 40 years of war. It means they've figured something out And what they've figured out has always been an underutilized resource in the international community And so it's something that's worth paying attention to next question, please Sir Thank you very much. Um, Najib Sharifi with a cobalt-based think tank called afghanistan analysis and awareness I have two questions One is um, well, uh, at the same time that we have these Good activities We've got also groups like his with tahrir and jemias isla who are Relentlessly working to radicalize the population. They have been very they have been successful to some extent Did you go over their methods of activities and radicalization in Your study as well. And my second question is considering the importance of The interventions with regards to engaging the civil society networks and religious leaders And this particularly becomes important considering the fact that we have such rich Religious cultural Foundation in afghanistan for that considering the fact that sufi islam has been historically afghanistan has been a big Place so why has the afghan government and the international community has failed to tap into this Opportunity because extremism is well afghanistan is in the front line, but it's the growing Threat to the security of the whole world Thank you Conspiracy theory aside We I've heard a number of of responses to that question. We know why aren't we Utilizing these various groups against against this threat and why can't we position ourselves better? Why don't we vet the partners? Why don't we rely on people with shared values and we make this point? I've been making this point for decades But what a lot of people What i've heard the response is we're not going to pick a good islam We won't pick the right islam or the right actors And for some reason that translates into it's not our place We're not gonna we're not going to make decisions based on the ideological or the theological position of our potential stakeholders and so and I grapple with this I pontificate on this issue quite often thinking that is it because A lot of these people don't understand the power of theology or religion in these countries Like they don't understand that this is an integral part of these stakeholders Or is it because they don't want it to be an integral part of the stakeholders? Or is it sincerely not wanting to be in the middle of this issue? So I can't I can't really say which if not all three of those reasons are there are a factor But i'm inclined to think that it can't go on indefinitely As I mentioned, you know cv is about to go stratospheric The whole world is taking on this issue even the Saudis are developing a counter radicalization program So I don't think this issue is going to go away and we may see some development or movement towards You know developing a what exactly is violent extremism in the muslim context? And what are the solutions to it ideologically and theologically? You know my program studied this this this issue about how the united states engages with religion Uh globally for a number of years We put out a report about a year and a half ago and that's the the final bit of that program And you know why we we asked agencies throughout the u.s. Government We know why don't we really engage with this issue and a lot of it is they they um part is the establishment clause The constitution they're not really sure if they're allowed to promote religion. They're not sure if they're allowed to to get involved in these issues And I have been hearing that that there's still a reluctance even today This is something we've been looking at for about eight years now Very happy to see that within the the Bureau of Conflict Stabilization Operations They're taking this the exact issue on pretty strongly, which i'm very happy to see I think we have time for one or two more questions. I think uh jim in the back I'm jim shear formerly uh office of the secretary of defense. Thank you bob and panelists for a very interesting Discussion uh a non stratospheric question How does How do efforts to counter violent extremism? CSO Led not the conflict and stabilization ops, but civil society organizations um, how are those efforts facilitated or made more complicated in afghanistan especially in the south by uh efforts to counter poppy cultivation counter narcotics that whole Issue on the other side, uh, which a lot of us worry about. Thank you Thanks It's uh Yes, they are complicated. I think that that uh, um goes without saying I think this really boils down to the fact that uh Uh as marine was alluding to there obviously several This problem of radicalization and violent extremism in the afghanistan case is uh is really a confluence of different factors Right. So on one hand, you've got groups, um, in which are ideologically driven your hibidah ears that you are alluding to Um, and I think a lot of religious scholars in afghanistan know very well who these people are and that it's a very foreign ideology So there's your ideological components. And then of course, uh, you know, you've got arbaki's in in kundos, which are basically militias which are Uh, supposed to be maybe helping out local communities, but maybe causing trouble. Obviously, uh drug money comes into the whole picture So, um I guess, uh, maybe this is a cobot answer. But yes, I think you're absolutely right The open production does complicate everything because there are a lot more Let's see beneficiaries from the violence. Um, and then occasionally, of course, one of the things that we saw was that Certain forms of violence Get covered up by other forms of criminality and violence You're not exactly sure which is the chicken, which is the egg which came first and then they feed upon each other And this essentially makes it very difficult for civil study organizations Which are trying to pinpoint what the problem is and where it begins and then get to the source of it so, um Just another point to consider is that often when we used to engage groups and just to quickly also respond to your question Um, our our interviews would usually try to lay the ideological groundwork first understand what kind of groups are are at Are involved in these issues um and then uh When it comes to the issue of extremism because there are so many different factors and actors at play here Um, one of the interesting ways that we were able to pull data was to ask communities Okay, well, how do you prevent militancy? How do you prevent drug abuse in your communities because that was really seen as a gateway towards other forms of violent extremism? so utilizing the The drug reduction campaigns can really be an excellent inwards to addressing the cbe issue And um, head you I'd like to give you the the final word for the day Oh Thank you all for coming and I I hope the actually please turn on your mic. I keep doing that I keep turning it off because I don't want to Uh, I I hope the report will be a use a useful tool for those of you In government or with aid organizations that are involved in cve work or involved in afghanistan And we would like you to reach out to us if we could be of assistance any further We've been Working very closely with a number of these groups. So we're happy to facilitate Relationships or partnerships between these groups. Um, and we look forward to the continuing investment in the afghan people Thank you So our program's work on afghanistan pakistan south asia and other issues related to conflict Is at c3.csis.org at e.org Presumably you can find the uh this report and um and others including Some work that they've done in pakistan and and other places I would like to thank all of you today for coming Um and thank all of you and please give a um, give a hand to word