 THINKTECH Hawaii. I'm your host, Kelea Akina. Our show today is called Lawyering for Social Justice, and we're going to talk about legal resources for the economically downtrodden, and we'll address the issue of how lawyers at the Hawaii Appleseed Center for Law and Economic Justice are providing crucial legal services to an important population in Hawaii. If you want to ask a question or participate in the discussion, you can tweet us at THINKTECH-H-I, or just give us a call at area code 415-871-2474. Our guest for the show today is Gavin Thornton. He's the co-executive director of the Appleseed Center. Gavin, welcome to the program today. Good to see you today. Thanks so much for having me. Well, I've enjoyed sitting down with you and getting to know you because at the Grassroot Institute and at Appleseed Center, we work on common problems. We're working on trying to make society better and more livable for those who are least advantaged. That's right. At Hawaii Appleseed, what we're really trying to do is create a Hawaii where everybody has the opportunity to achieve economic stability and success, very similar missions. That's right. In fact, you use a term there that the public may not be absolutely familiar with, economic justice. We know what economics is, the system of money and finance that gets goods to people in our society. We have a sense, maybe vague of what justice is, but when we put them together, economic justice, which is what Appleseed Center stands for, what are we talking about when we want to accomplish economic justice? Really having systems that are in place that give everybody a fair shot at achieving economic stability and being able to just live and work and achieve their potential. That's really what it's all about. Because the way that the tax system is structured, the way that regulation on businesses or on other things is structured, really impacts people on a day-to-day basis and can have a lot of influence on whether people do well in life or whether they don't. For those who are struggling to make a living here in the island, and that's a huge population and a growing population, there are many services that are provided by the government and by non-profit organizations. There are soup kitchens, there are shelters, there's medical attention, there are opportunities for job training and so forth. But the Appleseed Center focuses on something else, something that cuts across the lines really of all of these services. What is it that the Appleseed Center provides to those in need? Well, we actually have five different subject matter focus areas. The issues that we focus on are the issues that we really see as being core to a person's life success. And those are, in Hawaii, a really big one is affordable housing. All right. So affordable housing and homelessness. What we call economic justice, but we're looking at issues of taxation, issues relating to wages for that one. Hunger is another issue that affects a lot of people in Hawaii, just access to sufficient food, healthy food. And then those are our big three. Well, let me just stop you just for a second, then we'll go on to the other two. You're talking about housing, economic justice, and you're talking about what was that through hunger as well. But what you do is different from what many of the nonprofits do. You're not actually necessarily operating a food distribution program. You're not necessarily putting people into shelters and housing. You're operating at a different level. I don't want to use the word higher, but it's a level of engagement of the system that those who are in need sometimes can't do for themselves. Right. It's the 30,000 foot view, really looking at the systems and policy. In other words, you go straight to the law. You go straight to the legislature. You go to the systems that are in place for society and you advocate in various ways. And do you even litigate if necessary? That's correct. So we do some litigation. It's become a much smaller part of our work since we were initially conceived. But it is an important part of the work for those barriers to people's economic success. That just aren't getting addressed in other ways. So your work ultimately impacts the individual. But you're not necessarily doing it on behalf of individuals. You're doing it on behalf of an entire class of people who need affordable housing or who need health care and so forth. What's an example of what you do in the area of housing that impacts the system? Well, one good recent example that some of your viewers may be familiar with on the Capitol lawn a few weeks ago, we partnered up with Habitat for Humanity and had a demonstration accessory dwelling unit, a small home that a homeowner can build on their property and rent out rents that are typically more affordable than your regular multifamily apartment. So you were showing what could be done with the accessory dwelling unit legislation. You're actually fleshing out for the public to see and for legislators to see this is something that will help the poor. That's right. And that's part of a project we've been working on for a few years now. We initially wrote a policy brief identifying accessory dwelling units or ADUs as a potential way of helping address the affordable housing crisis. Then worked at Honolulu City Council to get a law passed that now allows ADUs to be built. We created a website HawaiiADU.org with a bunch of resources encouraging homeowners to pick this up, seize on this opportunity to be part of the solution. And then providing this vision with the demonstration project a vision of you know that you can touch and feel this is what you can do. Well, you talked about housing, economic justice, you talked about hunger. What were the other two major core areas? So the other two areas that we don't currently do quite as much work in, but we're still very interested in education. That's a huge one of course. And access to health care is another big one. At Apple Seed Center, some of you, perhaps most of you are lawyers. Is that right? Not most anymore. So my co-director, Victor Jiminyani. Victor, I know him. He's a terrific guy. Yep. And we've had him on the program before. Yep. And long history, a career of advocacy for low-income people. In the state. So he's a lawyer, doesn't do a whole lot of lawyering these days, works a lot in public policy. And then I'm also a lawyer as well. The rest of our staff, non-attorneys. It's a small staff though. So we have two other folks that are permanent with us. And then two people that are with us through the AmeriCorps VISTA program, which is a federal government program that's really about community service. And they're called VISTA volunteers. Now, if Apple Seed wasn't doing what it's doing and it's niche here in Hawaii, what would be missing? Oh, man. What vacuum would there be? Yeah. So one of the big reasons for our existence, the reason for our existence, is there was that vacuum before. So originally when we were formed, we were formed with the intention of doing class action litigation, impact litigation on behalf of low-income people in the state of Hawaii. Because there wasn't a whole lot of that happening. Native Hawaiian Legal Corporation does some work but focused on a particular area. Hawaii Disability Rights also focused on a particular area. So that's one thing. I think the broader thing though is really looking at these systems, policy, and how it affects low-income people in the state. You know, there are many viewers that I have who are not at the... Well, they're not in their careers yet. They're in college or they're at the early stages of their employment and so forth. And I always like to explore possible career paths with people. And you've taken an interesting one. I mean, you started off after college going to law school, and then at some point you decided that you weren't going to go into the big bucks area with law in terms of commercial law or Wall Street and so forth. But you took those years of education, which costs quite a bit, I'm sure, and decided, well, why don't you tell a little bit of your story, how you went from law school to your first position. And it's a little fascinating. Sure, yeah. So you were in Virginia, is that right? That's right, I attended law school at the University of Virginia. You know, pretty decent school. Lots of my classmates went off to pretty successful careers in the private sector doing pretty well, making a lot. And when I went to law school, I wasn't quite sure what I wanted to do. But over time it became apparent that I was really interested in some kind of public interest work. But prior to that, before going into this kind of public interest work that you're in today, you did spend some time in the corporate world. And you did have a taste of what it was to earn a fairly good salary. That's right. So as a summer associate, so in between years in law school, I went to work at a big private firm. And it was right after the dot-com bubble burst. And we were suing brokers that had invested in these tech stocks. I mean, more than I've made sense, essentially, until just maybe a few weeks ago, actually. Let me get this in perspective. In that one summer, working at a firm bringing in the big bucks, you made more money than you have in your career for how many years? Well, that's salary-wise. But I've been out. I graduated in 2002. So about 15 years. I was making a better salary when I didn't even have a law degree. Wasn't a member of the bar. But the reason why I do this work- Right. And that's the question I really want to get to is why you've chosen to pursue this set of values rather than financial success, per se. And so that summer was very informative for me. It made me realize that I didn't want to be doing that. I wanted to do something that had an impact. And actually, I ended up doing what I'm doing kind of on a fluke. I had decided to go into the Air Force to follow in my father's footsteps. And I was all set to go and found out right before I walked for graduation because I had checked the asthma box. They would no longer have me. It's like that old 4F disqualifier. Yep, yep. And I was devastated at the time, scrambling to find any kind of public interest opportunity I could. The first thing I found was at Legal Aid Society of Hawaii. Now, where were you when you got that offer from Legal Aid Society of Hawaii? My wife's from Seattle. So we were in Seattle. I had taken the bar exam there. So you went from Virginia to Seattle. And I think your first position with Legal Aid Society wasn't even on Oahu. Where was it? That's right. It was on Hawaii Island in Kona. Well, that's quite a traverse, isn't it? It was. It was close to East Hawaii. That's right. And the last place that I expected to end up. Well, we've got about a minute left. What on your heart has driven you to be in law for the public interest and for those who are economically disadvantaged? You know, when I got to Legal Aid, everything just clicked. And I was able to get into people's homes, see how they were living, see the impact that I could have on helping people to have the opportunities similar to what I had in my life. Well, thanks for making that choice and serving the people of Hawaii. I'm talking to Gavin Thornton, who is co-executive director of the Appleseed Center for Law and Economic Justice. Taking a look a bit at his own motivations for working with those in society who are at least advantaged. We're going to talk a little bit more about the nuts and bolts of the work and some of the things taking place here in Hawaii. We'll talk about the problem of houselessness as well as the need for more housing options overall for everyone. And more economic justice. We'll be right back. I'm Kili Akeena on Think Tech Hawaii's Ehana Kako. Don't go away. Welcome back to the second half of Ehana Kako here every week on the Think Tech Hawaii Broadcast Network. I'm Kili Akeena with the Grass Root Institute. At the Grass Root Institute, we like to say Ehana Kako is a great place to be. We're going to talk a little bit more about the problem of houselessness and the need for more housing options. We're going to talk a little bit more about the problem of houselessness and the need for more housing options. We're going to talk a little bit more about the problem of houselessness Ehana Kako, which sounds like a venerable saying here in Hawaii, a Pule Kako, that means let's pray together. At the Institute, we like to say let's work together as well. Let's work together for a better economy, government, and society. And that's why we are so grateful for organizations like the Apple Seed Center that are doing exactly that. And they're reaching out to a population that has particular need, a population that can't afford lawyers or necessarily the kinds of advocates that those with greater wealth are able to do. And Gavin Thorgin, who is the co-executive director of the Apple Seed Center, is at the front lines of making it possible for that population to actually advance itself. Gavin, let's go back and talk about the people whom you serve. Sure. Could you describe that population? Yeah. You know, I think it's gotten broader over the years. So we did a poll last... Unfortunately. Yes, unfortunately. More of us are falling beneath a certain net. Right. More and more people in Hawaii, and I think across the nation, are struggling to make ends meet. We did a poll last year that found that nearly half, 48 percent of Hawaii's residents are living paycheck to paycheck. And so for a lot of those folks, I mean, that means missing a couple of paychecks and being out on the street. That's right. You miss your rent, you miss your mortgage payment if they have a mortgage, and that's about it for people. That's a pretty desperate state, you know, that lack of savings, that lack of cushion and so forth. So we're seeing the houseless population grow largely because of people who can't make their final payment. Right. The current payment. That's right. The trends that we've been paying a particularly close eye on are the homelessness or houselessness population going up and up year after year. And also the gap, the growing gap between wages and housing costs has continued to grow, especially over the last 10, 15 years we've seen a widening gap there. You know, what I like is to see a spectrum of solutions at work. Our viewers know that the Grassroot Institute works at maybe a 50,000 level height. We're looking at 1920s shipping laws that impact global trade and seeing if we can alter that so that there's a trickle down benefit to places like Hawaii. We're looking at what's taking place in terms of federal laws regarding agriculture and so forth. We're looking at bringing greater venture capital for new industries into Hawaii. So we're kind of up here. And then there are those that are at the ground level who are out there directly meeting the needs of those who can't provide the things for themselves to have housing and jobs and education and health care. I see Apple Seed Center in the middle working on the systems that are at play right now here in the counties and in the states helping large numbers of people by dealing with our local laws and advocating for certain needs. Would that be a fair assessment? I think so. That sounds about right. I mean our focus is a state focus statewide at the county level. So I think that's about right. We pay attention to what's going on at the federal level and even look internationally for some solutions. You know really a lot of our work is focused on what are solutions that make sense? Are those solutions that have worked well elsewhere that have worked well in an environment similar to ours? Kind of a best practice. Like you were talking about that accessory dwelling unit. That's something that's been modeled across the world and sometimes in third world nations and we bring those solutions over here and use them in our own front yard. Exactly. Now we were talking a little bit earlier about some of the things you've done for those in need of housing. How about in terms of economic justice and kind of explain that again a little bit more. Apple Seed is very concerned about that and what is that Apple Seed doing? Sure. So this legislative session, this past legislative session that just wrapped up or a big push was on what we call tax fairness. That's because unfortunately a lot of politicians made a big push out of taxation. Possibly. I mean so the issue that we have been very concerned about is Hawaii has a very regressive tax structure. That's right. That means that low income people are taxed at much higher rates effective rates than folks that make more at the higher ends of the income scale. So and that's largely due to the general excise tax. That's right and you know I think we took some similar positions Apple Seed and the Grassroot Institute. We all want to see better education of our keiki. We all want to see teachers paid more. We all want to see our schools improved. We all want to see solutions to our mass transit problems. But going back to the GE tax, which as you mentioned is so regressive, doesn't really help those who are in the greatest need. What are some of the regressive problems that the poor experience with the GE tax? Well every time someone goes to the grocery store, pays their rent, even goes and gets medication. They're paying tax on that. For low income people who spend 100% of their paycheck on those necessities, they're getting taxed every time. And with the GE tax, just the way that it's set up, it's taxed multiple times during the stream from the manufacturer to the consumer. So low income folks are paying about 11%, over 11% of their income toward GE tax. That's a huge amount of money for these folks. That is, and they don't have the means with which to have tax strategies or to shelter some of their money or even get a wholesale discount card at Costco and so forth. So they're the ones who are at the lowest level of consumption in the stores getting hit with that GE combination really, GE sales tax here in the state. Yeah, these are folks that can't just suck money away, put it into stocks where they have a lower capital gains rate on their income tax. So you're advocating and being a voice for those whose voice wouldn't show up at the legislature, whose voice wouldn't be made known in the media were not for the kinds of things that Apple Seed is doing. Right, and I think taxation is a great example of that because that's, as soon as you say tax policy, people's eyes glaze over. And it's something that people really have a tough time digging into I think. And that is why I think our work is especially important. Now there's a tax measure that you are in favor of the state legislature, the earned income tax credit, which would provide credits to those under a certain income level to help them out with the tax burden. Is that right? That's correct. So the federal earned income tax credit, this is a federal credit that's been on the books for many, many years. It is one of the most effective anti-poverty programs in the nation. It's responsible for bringing more children out of poverty than any other program in the nation. It's had broad bipartisan support. Reagan supported the expansion of the credit. And so that's something that's been really effective. We've been trying here in Hawaii for well over a decade to get a state equivalent. And this year we finally looks like we've got one. Well, yes, at least it'll go to the governor's desk and so at least to that extent I congratulate you. And you know the thing I like about our discourse is we can take different perspectives. Right. You and I have gone out to lunch and we're aware that at the Grassroots Institute we share with you the desire to see those goods that the earned income tax brings about for those in need. There's no question about that. But we've raised some questions as well. Questions about the fact that it raises the impact of taxes upon those in the higher income. The current version of that bill would put Hawaii as the second highest in the nation in terms of earned income tax. And so we're just a little bit concerned about how that might impact those who create the jobs or those who come here and invest in the economy and so forth. Not so much to have a debate with you, but I was wondering how do you respond to some of those concerns? Right. Well, I talked about the regressivity of the GT and on the other end of the income spectrum with the GT and income taxes and other taxes, low income folks pay, they end up paying about 13 and a half percent of their total income towards taxes. Right. And we documented it sometimes going higher than that. But go ahead. And then on the higher end of the scale it's like the figure is eight and a half percent of the wealthiest folks. Sure. Income is going to state and local taxes. And so we look at it as a balancing that we need to maintain or increase the level of services that people are providing. And so how do you pay for that without exacerbating this problem of really, really high tax burdens on the low income folks? Well, as long as we're looking for a solution that is good for everyone, we'll be all right. We'll have you back sometime. We'll chat about how we define that marker called fairness. But our time has gone too quickly today. And I want to thank you, Gavin, for being on the program. Just appreciate your insights and more than that, your dedication at Appleseed, you and your colleagues, to what you're doing for Hawaii. Thank you so much. This is a wonderful conversation and look forward to continuing it. Thanks. As I mentioned to Gavin, this time has gone far too quickly. And so I have to say aloha to you that we're at the end of our show. We've enjoyed bringing this a Hanukako broadcast to you. I'm Kaley Akeena with the Grassroot Institute. Our guest has been Gavin Thornton. And we've been talking about lawyering for social justice and addressing the issue of how lawyers at the Hawaii Appleseed Center for Law and Economic Justice are providing a crucial service. Thanks to our production engineer, Ray Sangalong, our floor manager, Robert McClain, and all the people who've done a great job to contribute to our ThinkTech productions. And if you want to see the show again, go to ThinkTechHawaii.com or YouTube.com slash ThinkTechHawaii, where there'll be a link to more shows just like this one. Thanks so much for watching. Mahalo. We'll see you next time. Aloha.