 I'm Tom Leonard. I'm the host of the Gamer's Change Lives podcast, and I was really fortunate that Catherine Dore, who's the regular host here, invited me to host today to talk about some things that I've learned in eSports over the past few months. So I really appreciate Catherine inviting us. And I was able to bring along Reginald Nassawa, who is the producer of the podcast. And again, the podcast is Gamer's Change Lives, and what we talk about is how eSports can create jobs all around the world. Our tagline is play games, create jobs, change. Welcome, Reginald. Yeah, thank you, Tom. So I'm happy to be here for the second time, and I'm always a pretty big fan of the show, and I'm glad to be here. Yeah, so where are you speaking to us from? Okay, so the last time I was on, I was in the city called Takaradi, but now I'm in the capital of Ghana, that is Accra. So I'm speaking from Accra in Ghana, and it's about 10 p.m. here, local time. Right? No, I appreciate you taking a little bit of time out of your schedule. And one of the things that I wanted to talk about, because I don't want to talk about just the podcast, but more about the kinds of stories that we've heard from the podcast, especially the eSports stories. But first, just talking about podcasting, can you describe, Reginald, because you have your own podcast outside of the Gamer's Change Lives. Can you talk about why podcasting is so powerful and getting a message out there? Yeah, I think podcasting is an amazing opportunity that technology has provided the world over. I remember I have a radio background at the university. I got a small job at a radio station where I was a journalist, and I could think about how difficult it is for people to tell their stories, you know, unless they have such opportunities. But with podcasting, you are able to tell your story quite easily, get very, very good engagement about it, and it provides the opportunity to hear amazing stories from all over the world. And because of technology, I mean, we've spoken to people from different parts of the world. So I think that podcasting is a great way to get the message heard. I think those times with radio, if you missed the time of the program, that is about podcasting, you can play it back, you can slow it down, you can accelerate, you can... And I think it's content for generations to come. So I really love podcasting, and yeah, I think it's just a great platform to be heard. Is podcasting popular in Africa? Yeah, it is growing. It is growing. I'm fortunate to be on the African Podcastus Network, and we see our numbers growing a lot. Because, I mean, Africa is known for storytelling. I mean, every child can tell you about maybe 20 public exaggerating stories because animals from the animal kingdom, things like plants, your parents teaching true stories. We have the by the fire side where the eldest communicates life lessons true story. So I think it's something that is growing. The only thing about podcasting that hasn't yet evolved here in Africa is how to monetize. Giving creators the opportunities to monetize, because most of the monetizations are not available in this part of the world. But I think that it is gradually growing. The number of creators are growing every time people are asking, how do I get into podcasting? How can I start my own podcast? So it is something that is really, really taking shape and gaining momentum across Africa. One of the things that's always so important is to be able to find good guests for a podcast. And one of the things in starting our podcast here, it was like, okay, how do you get guests for your podcast if you have no episodes to show them? And you were so good at finding us those guests from the very beginning. If it wasn't for you, we wouldn't have a show because we wouldn't have had the guests out there. So what would you tell people? How do you get guests for a podcast? Yeah, well, I think getting guests for a podcast is as easy as just asking them and being patient and not being afraid of the new. I think sometimes is the judgment we have in our heads that stops us from doing great things. And for me, I think what really took off for me was that I was fortunate to be selected as a Mandela Washington fellow by the State Department. And when I came to the US, it just dawned on me that people really want to help. People are accessible, people also to keep opportunities for them to be known. And people just want to support every great course. But I think if you are having a podcast, your message is good for people, is good for your community, is good for the world. I think a lot of people will want to join you in that vision. So I think that getting guests is very easy. You need to reset for the guests. And you always don't start small, go for the biggest guest. Not, I mean, not possible. I mean, go for people that really have good stories to tell. So don't be shy. Just reach out, thank God for platforms like LinkedIn. And I think for me, that's also improved on my relationship and my networking. I think it's a different form of networking, but I love doing it. Even the people who don't respond, because I think that the worst is to, for someone to say no, or I'm not available at this time, but you always have what's about 10 people that I reach out to at least seven do offer a good response. So I think it's a good number. And yeah, so it's not that difficult. I think two of the things that you said there, I think are really important. One is just to ask. I mean, if you don't ask, you don't get, that's the life in general. But also don't be afraid of the dose. It's like, there are so many people out there talk to that if those people say no for whatever reason. The other thing we found with podcast is there might be a no right now, but then later on they come back and they're asking to be on the podcast, which is a great situation to be on. So let's talk a little bit about esports, because that's the theme of the show here, the wide world of esports. And one of the things that I think is really interesting here is that either one of us are big gamers in that, you know, we're not out there on Fortnite or Call of Duty or Mortal Kombat or whatever. But we have a podcast that talks about esports. And one of the things that I think we've developed is the audience for our podcast is not huge, but it's really passionate. And it's mainly made up of esports entrepreneurs, not bad gamers, not the people that are out there playing the game. We don't talk about how to become a better player, but we talk about how to build a business. What are some of the common themes that you have found in all the, we have 56, I counted 56 episodes so far in 18 months, which we should be really proud of. So what are some of the common themes that you've noticed? Yeah, I think that first of all, our work is a great lot of passion with all the entrepreneurs that we've spoken to, because we've had a lot of them that are coming from very, very challenging backgrounds with a lot of limitations, especially going into a field like esports where people feel that in some of those places that culture doesn't really see how there's a path from esports into, let's say, getting a job or something that's traditional. Even some of, you know, people think that there's nothing like that. There's people wasting their time on TV, you know, on their consoles playing video games. A lot of things that I've seen from the stories that I've seen that is like a fire that cannot be quenched and the people that we interview find different ways to make their dream work. And I think with the differences in strategy or tactics or how to do it, but I think the core thing is that, you know, they are really passionate about it. And then one of the other things that we also see is collaboration. We see that in the esports industry, most of the entrepreneurs do not work in isolation. So we've had a lot of guests, who know what I guess, who know what I guess. So they say, oh, I've been in a panel with them. We've attended a conference together. So I see a lot of unity in that. And I think it's a similar for esports because some of them are team owners who normally compete for the same prizes and the same competition. But for the good of the industry, you could see that kind of, you know, collaboration that is coming in that I think you might not see in other industries. And what I think I'm also seeing is that I'm seeing a lot of people who are thinking not only for themselves, but they are aimed for their community. So some of the esports entrepreneurs are addressing social challenges with the esports, some of them who are addressing women's rights. You know, we had Amela from Sri Lanka who is again using the fabric industry at Lake Kennedy Esports. So that is great. So it's like they are looking at what is available to them, what their limitations are, and they are innovating around it. And it's all together with the esports. So I really love them about it. And a lot of them is the commitment and dedication. Some of them are not even made too much profit from the business side, but they are pushing and then they are celebrating their small wins and then they are moving forward. So it's been great seeing a lot of, I like triumphant stories and overcoming stories. So when we see how these entrepreneurs have been able to overcome limitations, some struggle with sponsorship, some of them really hit hard times, but they were able to ride a storm and then move to the next level. So there's a lot of resilience and a lot of lessons to be learned from people who are actually having a road or a path through rocks, if I would say. Yeah, no, I probably got to repeat some of the things, but on my little list here was that we talked to a lot of people that saw a need and then went to fill it. It's like they didn't say, oh, someone needs to go do this. They're like, I'm going to go do this, like John Cash creating jobs, creating a program at HBCUs. In India, creating programs there, Ronnie Lucigi, and probably the most ultimate one is Gerald Solomon creating NACEP because instead of the non-profit, they saw that there was a need. Another thing was that people need to explain esports to their parents, and I'll always remember the story of two stories. Romain Tixier in France, I hope I didn't put your name. I still remember him saying, you see where he remembers being in the basement, his dad coming down saying, get out of the basement and go get a job. You're just playing those games, and so he went out and got an esports job. And then Jadisolo in Nigeria, whose son made an Instagram video to explain to her what esports is. It's like, how perfect is that? The other thing that we keep hearing is that there's more work that needs to be done on making women part of the industry. We talked to Chantel and Miao in Asia, women in games in Asia. We talked to Inka in Germany and so on, and Shirley in Puerto Rico. And all we're talking about how there's a lot of people understand that there needs to be more women involved at all different levels, but there's just probably not as many programs out there. So those are the kinds of themes that I think we are starting to hear. A lot of different themes over 56. What are some of the most memorable stories from the podcast? And one of the great things here, we can't say who's your favorite guest, because that's like, who's your favorite kid? What are some of the more memorable stories that come to mind? Well, I think speaking to Ben Aro in Kenya, how from, I mean, just by playing video games with his brother, and how he was able to grow into that. And then actually, it's a long build of the test side, which is fighting games, which I think that sometimes the competition can get very, very poor talent. You know, she even said sometimes she has been, you know, sometimes they will try to pull her and all that, and how she was able to start from such age. And then she's a law student, someone who is studying to read law, but she's very, very passionate. She was able to get a professional contract in eSports. So I think that was quite amazing for me that it showed how passionate she was and that there are no limits and things can also happen. And one of the other stories too is how the team from Ghana went to Bali. It was a life-changing experience for Ben Aro. Explain a little bit more about that episode, because that was on my list too. It's one of my favorite conversations. Can you explain what the deal was and why it was such a big deal? Yeah, I mean, it was a big deal because it's all the parents did not believe. So I think it's something that made a difference because playing games, where you can be in Ghana, all the eSports centers are wooden kiosks by the street corner somewhere with some electrical connection with old TV sets where they connect the consoles. So from that age to where you are able to get to an international competition, that is amazing and getting people to follow and love. And also, when we interviewed Gerard, he was like, hey, hey, for those of the team from Ghana attended almost all the classes trying to learn as many things as possible. I think one of the other stories too that impressed me was Ronnie Lucigi from Kenya House who used an Olympic athlete to mentor eSports players and how he was able to use the power of the media to get the attention of this sports federation who supports his eSports efforts and how he was able to position his eSports and then start making publicity about the eSports efforts. So that really showed a lot of creativity and innovation and determination to be able to achieve that because they know that they are underdog, but they will not accept being careful. They want to rise to the top, they want to do all. So there have been so, so many great and amazing stories from all the people that we've been talking to. Yeah. Yeah, I completely agree with that. Now, the story of Quacy going to Bali, Quacy and the team from Ghana, I mean, I'm just thinking like, what about a team from the U.S. going to Bali? What a big deal that would be for that team. But thank you for going from Ghana. All the challenges that would show up to make that happen. I think one of the other stories that kept coming up was how important the international organizations are and the kinds of things that they do for teams all over the world. And the reason that they went to Bali was because the IESF created the opportunity for them to go there. And so I think that sometimes people don't give them enough credit for doing things that help everyone out there. We also talked to another team that we talked to was Control in Britain with Nick Turner and to hear the stories, those guys, we talked to a lot of education people this year for some reason. And one of the things though is that they're talking about going from, going to school and then going and getting a job, which of course is, I mean, that's a thing everyone goes through, that goes to college. Now they have a good job and just talking about how they were using their eSports training to help them. And what about, oh man, I can't remember the guy from West Point. What was his name? Yeah, that was Victor Castro. Victor Castro and just using eSports as a way, sorry Victor, just using eSports as a way to teach leadership at West Point. It's like these people are super creative. I also liked when we brought in a couple of what I call divergent voices when we had Jeremy Utley talking about idea flow. It's like, he's not a gamer. It's like, you know, he's at Stanford and he had some really interesting stories that everyone could relate to. And we have Matt Abraham's coming up soon who's a communications instructor there at the Graduate School of Business there at Stanford to talk about communication. So we can just be telling all kinds of different stories. So are there any surprises that you didn't expect at the beginning? Do you have all the podcasts? Yeah, the podcast. When we started this podcast 18 months ago, I had the idea, oh, this could be an interesting podcast. An interesting topic, I didn't see anyone else doing it because what we wanted to do was to talk, to tell the stories of other people. We didn't want to tell the stories of how someone in California tell you how to do it. No, we wanted to tell the stories of people all over the world so that the audience could see themselves in the guess that showed up. So we started out like 18 months ago. We had three seasons. We had first season, we talked about jobs. Second season, we talked about follow the money. We talked about investment. We talked about sponsorship. And the last one we called Esports 101, which we're just finishing up now and talking to a lot of different people. But over the whole journey of the entire podcast, what are some of the surprises? You didn't expect to see. Well, for me, I think it's how Esports is sort of like a universal language. And one of the things that I saw was that if you talk to people from Africa, from Asia, from Eastern Europe, it's sort of the same thing. There's a lot of repetition in the challenges they are facing. And how easily transferable the skills are from one place to another. So I think that came as a surprise to me. And one of the things was how the different facets of Esports, because when you look at Esports, you're thinking maybe it's just the game of consoles. By getting into it, I've learned a lot about the different, different aspects. They are so many different areas of career growth and opportunity that I involved in Esports. I mean, if you have team psychologists, then you can look at it like a sport itself. We have Amela talking to us about things to do with health and the comfort of gamers. And then we had Hendricki doing some. So there's a lot of innovation coming out of that whole Esports industry. And it was amazing. And I think one of the things was that Esports people are really nice people. That was one of the things that came out. Yes, and along the same theme, it's just like I was continually impressed how generous people were. And you hit on it earlier. These are people who are competing against each other in a lot of cases. But when it comes to helping each other out, I mean, almost everyone that we talked to, that's what they wanted to do. They wanted to help themselves, but they wanted to help other people as well. And who is more of a giver than Amir, Amir Saffat, who created on LinkedIn this, he saw, again, his conversation was more about gaming than Esports, but he saw that all these people were losing their jobs last year in the gaming industry. And he thought, you know, so much to do something. So he created his own database of jobs so that people, and I forget his numbers, but he threw his database there. A lot of people found jobs. He wasn't in it because he didn't make any money off of all that. But he was just like a giver. And we just over and over again, who were doing things, nothing themselves, but to help others. Yeah. And that was the amazing. I mean, for Amir, it was not just about the jobs, the ad mentors, people who are reviewing, people's resumes, people who are checking, you know, people's comment letters. He actually created a whole new directory for Nntos. It's open. People with access to such groups would have charged membership fee or something like that. But that was amazing. For me, I think that was really, really amazing. So, yeah. So those were some of the great stories, you know, that came out from the podcast. And yeah, one of the other things that you mentioned you touched on there was just the different kinds of jobs out there. I mean, because when you talk to you for a team, and there's all those, the jobs that, I mean, most people, when they think of eSports, they're thinking of the player, they're thinking of the streamers. And that's the job. If you're going to be in eSports, you've got to be a really good player. That's not true. There's many more jobs that have nothing, there's accountants. They're my favorite one of all was Eddie O'Lan was talking about drone operator. I mean, you could be a drone operator and you could have a job in eSports. So we kept hearing that story over and over again, which I thought was, it was just amazing. What's the most interesting job you've got? Well, for me, I think it will be the legal side of eSports. Yeah. I think we've got some pretty two legal people talking to us about eSports and even the idea of someone, you know, who could come to the United States with a special talent, and become the eSports. And that for me is amazing. So I think that the legal side contracts, wanna manage money, there's some full lots of things that go into it. So I think for me, the legal side really stood out for me in eSports. It's not just about games. But yeah, there's a legal side to it. Who knew that even existed? Say, as we wrap up here, so what's next for the podcast? Yeah, I'm pretty excited about what next because we are starting some LinkedIn lives because LinkedIn has become the platform for us looking at our audience targeting people in business, in sponsorship, eSports entrepreneurs, and the organizations. So we want to, we will be starting the first one to talk about the growth of eSports in Africa because over the past several months to a year, eSports in Africa has seen massive growth and investments. We have our first service in West Africa. It happened this year. We had, you know, teams and players from Africa competing in tournaments around the world. And yeah, so we want to start like that and yeah, get more engagement and then get more of our listeners to participate live on these LinkedIn lives. So I think everyone should look out for that coming out and we hope that you participate and that it will be exciting, really exciting. That's a good point that one of the things you don't get with the podcast is you don't get live interaction back and forth. You don't get people to ask questions. They can interact with the social media afterwards, but that's always just not the same. So yeah, so the LinkedIn lives are coming up. That's going to be really good because there's so many things to talk about worldwide. We can talk about one of the things that surprised me was how everything's mobile around the world. I mean, if you're in the U.S., you don't think a mobile first. So many people we talk to. So that could be another LinkedIn live. So there's just a lot of different topics out there. But I really like the idea of talking about Africa, particularly with servers. It's like we've heard about servers from day one. I'm sure day one. And again, that's the kind of thing that we wouldn't necessarily think. Hey, we're winding down here. Thanks, Reginald, for taking a little bit of time. This has been fun, these last 18 months. Yes, yes, it is. I'm excited to see what is coming up next. Thank you for inviting me to the show. Great. Okay. Tom Leonard, I'm the creator and host of the Gamer's ChangeLives podcast.