 Welcome to the nonprofit show thrilled to have you here with Julia Patrick and myself, Jared Ransom, another episode here of the nonprofit show with our guest today, Kevin Holt. Kevin's going to talk to us about collaborating with another nonprofit. So before we jump into this conversation with you, Kevin, we want to remind our amazing viewers and listeners across the globe who they are seeing or possibly listening to. So again, Julia Patrick is here, CEO of the American nonprofit Academy. I'm Jared Ransom, Julia's personal nonprofit nerd, but all of yours as well. There's plenty of nerdiness to go around. But I am the nonprofit nerd CEO of the Raven Group. We are so very honored to continue our partnership relationships with so many of our amazing esteemed presenting sponsors. Those of you watching, you can see their logos. 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So glad to have you here in the hot seat. Kevin Holt of Co Innovation Consulting. Welcome to you. Thank you. Thank you for having me. You know, we have noticed such a push towards collaboration coming from funders. So this is a really interesting conversation to have with you today, Kevin, because collaboration can be really sticky. It can be really challenging. And it seems to me that it's getting pushed in and building alignments that maybe might not have been there before. And so I can't wait to hear how you advise and how you think about this. You also have, I have a copy of your book here, Differentiation Strategy, Winning Customers by Being Different. I have to admit, mine's a little doggiered because I've been looking at this and going back to it. That's good. It's really an interesting approach, very scientific, a very exacting. And so I can't wait to really have you talk about that. But before we dig in too far, help us understand what collaboration really is. Sure. Again, thanks for having me. It's really pretty straightforward. Collaboration, the way I define it is that it involves two or more entities working together to produce or create something. And when you talk about those entities, they can exist at several levels. There's an inter-organizational collaboration, which is a collaboration of two or more organizations. And that's the sort of collaboration you were referring to that so many funders want to see to get two or more nonprofits or two or more organizations generally to collaborate to be more efficient or effective together. And then within those organizations, you have inter-functional or inter-departmental collaboration, which you'll often hear the term siloed organizations, which are organizations that aren't collaborating because everybody's working in their own silo. And then the third level and the level that interests me, and I'll explain why in a second, is interpersonal collaboration, which is collaboration between two or more people to produce or create something. And when you think about it, inter-organizational inter-departmental collaborations are typically implemented by team size groups, say six to 12 people, maybe more, maybe less. And so if they aren't collaborating well, well, then the sort of inter-organizational collaboration that funders want isn't going to be working well. So, you know, what I'm interested in is how you make those groups do a better job of thinking together, make them collectively smarter. I feel like there's a lot of collaborations, as you mentioned, Julia, in our community, and I'm curious for this, Kevin, are all collaborations formal or are they all informal? Or is there a little bit of mixture of kind of all of it? Good question. I'd say both. And you have formal collaborations between organizations that are written, that involve a written agreement. And it's very clear what the purpose of the collaboration is and who is to do what to accomplish that purpose, at least a formal collaboration should be that way. And then you have informal collaborations where two or more EDs might work together to jointly solve a problem, but there's really nothing written. So you have both. Yeah. You know, you said something I thought was magical and you use that phrase, thinking together. I love that. I mean, that really to me is a collaborative spirit and approach. And you identify this in three ways, thinking together about process platforms and people. So let's have you dig into this first and foremost with collaboration and process. What does that mean? Okay. And before I get into that, let me just emphasize that. When you talk about thinking together, when a group is really working well when it's using process platform and people well, it's able to think of ideas that no one of the group members previously possessed or could have thought of on their own. So the group is literally thinking of ideas that would not be thought of if they weren't working well together and that's what really floats my boat when it comes to collaboration. So, when we talk about the process aspect of collaboration. The general idea here is that you want there to be some method to your madness you don't want to use the, what I like to call the bopset method which is acronym for a bunch of people sitting around talking and there's really no process or reason or approach being taken. So processes. You can generally divide them into two types you have group processes, which determine how the group members will interact and in what order, and then you have task processes which outline the steps that the group will take to accomplish some tasks. So, an example of a group process is, and most of these group processes are designed to make the group collectively more intelligent to do a better job of thinking together by mining each other's minds brains. So, one method is called the nominal group technique or method, and it recognizes the fact that research shows that surprisingly because we all have these brainstorming use these brainstorming groups that an initial set of ideas is better developed when you have people working alone. But then once you get those initial ideas on the table, the group is better at developing them. So, with the nominal group method, what you do is you start with having everybody lists their ideas silently, write them down on paper. And then you go around the group round Robin style and each person contributes their idea and then the group comments on it. I'm saying that that's like pre work, like I know a lot of times when we, we joined together, especially in board leadership, or we start some of these processes, we will be given what we call pre work, and it's kind of like come to the table so, so it's a little bit more thoughtful as opposed to putting somebody on the spot. Or is that is that part of the secret sauce is having everybody kind of put on the spot. No, it's great question. And in fact, it's even better to do the have the people list their ideas. Before the meeting do that pre work and then you can actually start creating themes and sorting the ideas into themes before the meeting even starts which gives you a jump on the process. So, great, great, great question. Then a more sophisticated version of the nominal group method is called the one to four all method. And this does a better job of getting individuals to mine each other's minds to think together. So you start off with that initial list of developed either in pre work or at the meeting. And then you have the group members pair up groups of two that's the one to and they work together to develop the ideas and then you have the pairs pair up. So you have groups of four, and the groups of four work to create develop their ideas. And then finally, each group of four report reports out to the entire group, and the entire group develops their ideas. I was laughing when you said one two four I was like that sounds like how I do math. One two does not equal four and then we have the all encompassing. And I, I feel like this is probably used a lot this is a technique I use honestly Kevin. Yeah, in my well I didn't know that this is what it was called but in a lot of the training and board development strategic planning work that I do. I love, you know, bringing in, you know, people's thoughts and, you know, kind of having these conversations of, of process. Let's talk about how best to collaborate in these three ways and you have process platform, and then you have people right and so the one two four it's not, it's not just how I do math but it is this. It is this, you know, I joke and I say sometimes my calculator doesn't even give me the right number, you know. So, okay so so talk us through then. So is that the process piece I was curious. Well then, the other half is task processes, and a task is example of a task is creating a strategic plan. So you should use a process for creating that plan. For example, the process I described in my book is a process for creating what's known as a differentiation strategy which is one type of competitive strategy. So again you want some method to your madness you don't want to use the bopset method bopset method. Other examples are like scenario planning is a process for doing foresight for talking about possible futures that might unfold. And they're really interesting is there's a whole battery of innovation methods that people should be aware of. For example, there's one called the jobs to be done method. There's consumption chain method. There's journey mapping and touch point analysis, and all of these involve steps to accomplish a task. You know, it's an amazing thing to think about moving from just, okay let's work together to how we work together and understanding how we can navigate more successfully. The next piece of your if you will P your is platform collaboration and platform. What does that mean the platform aspect. Alright, when I talk about platforms I'm talking about technological platforms. And one of my main messages here is that the flip chart is as obsolete as the buggy whip with all these new wonderful collaboration technologies that you have out there. And so the idea is that you want to map the process group and task process that you're using to one of the two collaboration platform. And the one that I use most and what really actually got me interested in this whole topic of getting groups to do a better job thinking together is called electronic brainstorming, which despite it's somewhat goofy name is a technology a group where technology that was largely developed by a collaboration between the University of Arizona and IBM. And it is basically you might imagine it as being and by the way it works both face to face and online and face to face I bring in computers for people to use. And so it works both face to face and online and you might imagine it as being like nobody really understands it till they use it which is frustrating for me but the best way to describe it is you might imagine it being like a large electronic whiteboard. And at the top of the board you have the question like well what are all the things that are threats to our organization, and then everybody can type in their answers. Then they all pop up on the whiteboard and the order they were entered, which is a lot faster than say going around the room with a flip chart saying well. Julia what do you think and you write it down and Jared what do you think you write it down so you can literally capture dozens of ideas in minutes. And in fact I actually use it in ballroom settings where it's really gets overwhelming or you have 100 200 people. Do you have a question on that do you ever have any crisis communication where you're like okay who wrote that where it's like a 12 year old little boy that like just had access to it and wanted to say something and then you're like oh gosh that should not have gone on the digital board. Usually, no I usually, well once I've had occasions where there were some politics going on and part of part of being a meeting facilitator I learned the hard way is that you're sort of the, the conduit through which the conflict occurs so you'll get people and make comments like that but usually I like I'll start with a practice question like you know name three things you had for breakfast this morning and you'll get an answer like coffee and cigarettes you know. Things like I do a lot of hotel meetings and they'll all talk about Paris Hilton that always comes up or used to. Anyway, so you get that anyway these ideas all pop up on the board, and then you can create categories or like buckets on the fly. I can drop the ideas into the bucket so you can very quickly organize them, and then it has a whole bunch of very sophisticated voting tools for either selecting one or more ideas or rank ordering them. And a much more much better at taking advantage of a group's judgment than just a simple show of hands. So, sorry to interrupt Kevin what is the investment for a technology platform like that. That was my, my next question yeah. It's 5000 a year for the one I use and I don't know what the other guys are charging these days but it's not cheap. So, and then of course if you're going to do the bring keep computers in yourself you need to have a projector and buy 20 computers laptops and all that. So, you know, it's really it's an interesting way to actually make people more comfortable with the concept of collaboration because I don't know about you Jarrett but it seems to me that you're you oftentimes in a group will get a group of people and we want to talk about this next but people that are like yeah I've been in these exercises I understand the process and then you have others that have not. And so they're intimidated or they're not versed in the process and so it's how do you get you know this equilibrium set I guess. And so that kind of brings me to the next issue and that's of your three P's you had collaboration and people and obviously this is a really cursory look at this. You know with with the nonprofit show we only have so much time but I want to make sure Kevin that we get you to help us to understand how we factor in I guess you know the human element and that is the people. Sure. Well, before I mentioned that let me you say you know people are reluctant to speak up or uncomfortable. And these three P's all work together in a way that you can implement the nominal group technique on the technology and then electronic brainstorming. And then the technology also addresses some of the people issues in that you can enable anonymous entries so if you have people who are reluctant to speak up. Their name isn't you can set it up so what no one's name is next to it, but on the people part then. So you've you're using the right processes you've mapped it to one or more collaboration platforms the electronic brainstorming is just one. And the third part is then that you want to have a meeting facilitator facilitate the meeting. And it's the job that's the people part or that's a person. And then it's the job of the facilitator to bring the right people to the table and have them engaged in the right behaviors. And then we'll go back to the jigsaw puzzle idea where, you know, if a group. If you have all the people that you need all the people that have the right pieces of the puzzle to create a completed solution or novel idea. Well, so the job one of the jobs of a meeting facilitator is to make sure that you have all the right people there to contribute their pieces to the puzzle you want all the right pieces there. The example of that is like the obesity epidemic where there are biological factors there are psychological factors or social factors economic factors, marketing factors that all bear on resolving or coming up with a solution to the obesity epidemic so you want all those people at the table. But that's only half the battle. Once you have all those people at the table, you want the them engaging in the right behaviors which brings us back to something you mentioned earlier, which there's one meeting I've ever done where you didn't have one or two people that want to dominate the discussion hog all the airtime. And so, if you're trying to complete that jigsaw puzzle you want this collectively intelligent group, you know, creating this really novel solution that has all the pieces fit together. But there's only one or two people doing all the talking will nobody else gets to contribute their piece. And then the opposite problem is people who are a little reluctant to speak up. They need to draw them out again with technology like electronic brainstorming with anonymous entry helps to do that. So the people element is use a meeting facilitator, and that facilitator should help to bring the right people to the table and have them engaging in the right behaviors. Right. Yeah, and you had mentioned like it's only half of the puzzle of bringing in the people to the conversation now it's eliciting their response getting their participation. One of the things we've heard Julia is, you know, for board members in particular new board members it takes them on average, about a year and a half before a board member feels very comfortable and confident and asking questions being part of the conversations. And so, you know, it's like, okay, how do we make that people process happen quicker. And I don't know, you know, some of these elements as you've mentioned Kevin and thank you for bringing the technology piece. I think that is definitely helped us in the third P of the process platform and people portion as another P. Well, you know to answer your question how do you do that. I really believe that everybody in a group, especially one that meets routinely like that should be trained in meeting facilitation. So they're aware of the behaviors and they're helping the facilitator who is, you know, up there all by himself, all by his lonely trying to manage all this. You know, they can chip in and say, you know, John, why don't you let Mary speak up a little bit they should know about these behaviors and be to do that they need to be trained in meeting facilitation. Well, I have to tell you, I've been, you know, involved with a lot of training, been involved with a lot of kind of group thought and leadership issues. That's really hard to do. You know, that's really hard to do and it seems to me this reinforces the whole need for that meeting facilitator and I think in the nonprofit sector. We're so reluctant to spend money. We're like, okay, yeah, well, we'll let, you know, this person do it or we'll let that person do it but the. Don't you think sure. I mean, I see this all the time. Yeah. And I hear from boards they'll say, well, you know, so and so on our board can do this they do strategic plans for other, you know, other places and you're right Julie I always come back and say you really want to keep it agnostic right like you want to make sure to Kevin's point all voices are heard all individuals are speaking up and it's like we all help hold on to puzzle pieces we all have them like so the last thing we need is our corner pieces to not be into the puzzle because we're not going to get that final image. So yeah, I this is so important as we move forward into the new year. You know, as we as we are having this conversation it's almost the middle of January what are you seeing Kevin going forward in this collaboration space in particular for our nonprofit communities. Well, I think the biggest trend is that funders are are really pushing the need for this. But I guess, you know, if I have the one message here today, it's that, you know, the next step is to help these nonprofits make that collaboration happen. And, you know, with the three P's with, you know, one thing I've been wanting to develop and working on doing an online innovation lab I'd love to be able to do a physical innovation lab which is a space that is equipped with all these technologies and tools that are wonderful and all these technologies and tools that are out there. So, you know, funders could really help nonprofits by funding innovation labs places where they can go to really be much more effective. I am so glad to hear you say this and I'm also really glad to know that there are some funders in particular in our community Julia that are funding these collaborations and funding actually be the process of you know, the exploration stage to say, hey, we will fund this exploration with a facilitator professional facilitator, and you can kind of plot out, does this collaboration make sense. What are your strengths where your gaps, you know, where can you really build synergy to better support the community. One of the things you can do like in these innovation labs. One of the methods, if you really want to go full on is you bring together 20 or 30 participants who have expertise, and then you have multiple facilitators. You have people who are really expert in these issues you have the funders in the room, and there is a whole innovation lab process you can use where people form around small groups around the issues. And the, you know, the experts really stimulate their thinking the facilitators once they break into the smaller groups there's a facilitator for each small group to make sure it's functional. And this has been used in academics for coming up with fundable research ideas the National Science Foundation funds these kinds of innovation labs. Well, this has been amazing. I want to make sure that we give everyone access to Kevin Holt's co-innovation consulting information. His website is co-innovationconsulting.com. Check out his new book too because it's a really interesting way of understanding how we can look at things in a different way in a more holistic way, kind of getting outside of ourselves, so to speak, and understanding how we have more strength when we bring our different parts to the table. It's been really exciting Kevin to have you here to talk about this. Yeah, it's been a lot of fun. Again, I'm Julia Patrick, CEO of the American nonprofit Academy been joined today by my trusty nonprofit nerd who if you were with us in the green room, she saved me yesterday from a major smishing situation. Yes, put that cape on. I know it's on. I'm wearing it proudly. You totally saved me, Jeret Ransom. She is the nonprofit nerd. More importantly, and if you've noticed, she's been wearing glasses, I'm just saying. I know, I know, and these are real. I love them. These are real. Hey, and again, we want to thank all of our presenting sponsors who make these episodes of the nonprofit show possible. Blue meringue American nonprofit Academy your part time controller be generous fundraising Academy at National University staffing boutique nonprofit thought leader and the nonprofit nerd. Wow, this has been great. I really appreciate Kevin that you took time to kind of help us understand how maybe some of us can achieve our goals of collaboration in the new year. Great. Well, thank you again for having me. It's been a lot of fun. Another episode of the nonprofit show as we end today. We want to remind everyone to stay well so you can do well. We'll see you back here tomorrow, everyone.