 Hey folks, welcome to the podcast. So we're doing a special series of podcasts which I'm recording over Google Hangouts. So we're doing audio and video because for some unknown reason people don't want to come see me face to face right now. But there's always opportunity and the cool thing is I'm able to now podcast with people from all over the world. So we're going to get an amazing eclectic mix of people from from different industries, different perspectives to share their story and tell us, you know, their thoughts and feelings on what's going on right now and all of that cool stuff. Hope you enjoy it. Please subscribe in all the usual places and enjoy. Pippa, welcome to the podcast. Thank you, Lewis. Thank you for having me. Pleasure. Well, video cast actually, most of them. Yeah, exactly. Sorry we're not in the studio. Next time, next time. For those of them who know you, you are a partner at Sweet Capital. Yes, that is correct. And how has the last few months been? How have the last few months been? I mean, how have they been for everyone? I think that it's been a very strange period of adjustment. So yeah, so look, I feel like I've been isolating since early March. So I'm, I'm entering my fifth month of lockdown now. So I'm a pro. I'm a complete pro. That's crazy. How is your, how have your habits changed? I mean, obviously your routine is completely different, presumably to what it was before. Or have you always been working remotely and? Yeah, the funny thing is that so we can get into a little bit about what I do, but my job is very much, you know, suited to remote work. Often we are, I mean, I spend a lot of time typically between the US and the UK. Obviously that isn't happening at the moment, but I'm quite used to taking, you know, video calls or meeting people virtually. I think what's been difficult is that a lot of my job is meeting entrepreneurs, meeting people in business. And you know, a lot of that just happens in person. So there was definitely a bit of a transition period where everyone started moving those meetings online. And luckily for us, you know, versus some other funds who, you know, say, we've got to meet a person in person, you know, in person before we invest. For us, we were a bit more used to that, you know, virtual getting to know you. But yeah. So you've always worked from home or virtually and it's not really. We have an office, we definitely have, we have an office space that we work out of, but given that, you know, often the team are on the road, we are fairly used to having to cope with people in lots of different places. It hasn't been too tough from that perspective. I think what has been difficult is obviously working with a lot of entrepreneurs who are seeing real disruption to their business. And part of my job is to be really close to them and support them. So I definitely haven't escaped the impacts of COVID. And certainly, you know, a lot of the founders we have worked with, some of them have had real impacts to their business. Yeah, it's been it's been very, very well. I mean, I think it widely accept is the worst economy ever is just it's affected different industries differently and different businesses differently. And some people have been able to pivot quicker or better than others. And it's been it's been quite a it's been quite a varied story I found for for everyone. Have you have you been working quite closely then with the entrepreneurs and companies that you've invested in? Is that been the kind of? Yeah, no, of course. Look, I'd say my job mostly falls into two parts. One is finding new companies to invest in and meeting with those new entrepreneurs. But then a lot of it is supporting the existing portfolio. But during that initial period, there was this sort of triage of everyone all venture capital funds looking, you know, internally and saying, okay, what are the existing investments that we've already made need our help? You know, some maybe needed to furlough staff, some needed to raise another bridge round. A lot were trying to navigate some of the initiatives coming out of the Treasury. So I'd say that, you know, new investments definitely took a bit of a hit through through March and early April, because everyone was just focused on making sure that their existing investments were going to be okay. Yeah, what crazy learning experience? Yeah, yeah, I mean, you say to founders, you've got to be prepared for the unpredictable, but global pandemic, it really, really was a bit of a black swan this year. I remember kind of the January 2020, we just have, we just had the, oh, just before we had the election in the UK, and then all the Brexit stuff, which was talked about for like, goodness, how long, felt like it was kind of come into an end one way or another. Yeah. And then and then February comes and then this all of this stuff hits and it's, it's, it's been relentless. 2020 has been, Matt, I mean, if you think about it as well, the beginning of 2020, the, you know, Australian bushfires were, you know, the whole Australia was burning down and that feels so long ago now, but actually, there has been so much which has crept into 2020, that it's got to roll with the punches, basically. So how did you, how did you start out in venture capital? Yeah, so it's a funny question because I mean, people do ask me this and I would say that there is not a particular path to venture capital in general. It tends to be a path that, you know, is fairly unique for everyone. And I think that as a result, VC funds also hire quite sporadically. It's not like perhaps an industry that has more seasoned hiring cycles, etc. So it also lends itself to people coming from lots of different backgrounds. So I mean, actually, if I go back to myself, when I first graduated undergrad, I thought I was going to become a diplomat. I studied Chinese and I'd worked at the embassy, the British embassy in Beijing. And my first kind of work experience was going out and working with the foreign office. And I loved it. It was, it was, it was so interesting. And I got to use my Chinese and I'm half Chinese. So it was fun spending time there. But, you know, I'd really grown up with a dad who has been a lifelong entrepreneur. And I think part of me was always just really curious about getting into the kind of either startup world or business world. So I actually ended up leaving to go and take up a place on a graduate recruitment scheme, where I wanted to basically get some just, you know, basic financial analysis skills. So I ended up going to JP Morgan, really enjoyed it, spent, ended up spending five years there, which I didn't expect. Got to work at London, got to move to Hong Kong. And when I was in Hong Kong, I was, you know, spending time looking at the Chinese market, you know, what were consumer trends there? What were the technology trends there? And it was just this amazing time of growth and development. So it ended up staying longer than I thought that I would. And then, basically, you know, so still not on VC, I decided I didn't want to become a public equities fund manager. So I thought, you know, let's go off apply for an MBA and spend two years kind of testing out different things, trying out different, you know, listening to other people about their career paths. And it was really during that MBA that I kind of fell into this, you know, entrepreneurial ecosystem. I went to Harvard. So I went to the US for two years. Okay. Is that the first time you'd lived in the US? It was. So I'd gone to the US a bunch of times with work. And I'd worked for an American bank. So I'd done things like trainings there. And I'd interned there when I was younger. But it was my first time actually living and breathing in, you know, the US in US culture. And I was there at, you know, quite an interesting time, culturally and politically, because it was I arrived just before Donald Trump's election. So that was interesting. And then I spent two years basically, you know, I say to people, there's no one needs to have an MBA. And I think if you do do one, it's important to be really mindful about why you're doing it. And for me, it was just I was really nosy. I wanted to know what other people were doing. I wanted to try different things. So, you know, I interned at a few kind of startups, worked for one called Glossier, which a friend of mine had been the first employee at. And I kind of got the, I guess the bug for working in the startup world during the MBA, which kind of led the path towards ending up in VC. How different did you find it from working at JP Morgan? Because on the face of it, they seem poles apart. venture capital, you mean? Yeah. So JP Morgan being a huge financial institution. Yeah. MBA, VC, working with entrepreneurs. Is it as different as it seems or? Yeah, it is. The short answer is yes. Look, there are definitely things that I really learned during the time working at somewhere like JP Morgan that are definitely transferable. So I often use this analogy of, you know, when you're investing in a company, it's about picking the right race, it's picking about the right horse and then the right jockey. And what I found that my job at JP Morgan was really good at setting the scene of the macro, the industry. What are the wider trends in the global economy that are really interesting, like technology, like consumer. But a lot of what you're spending your time on in venture capital is why is it that horse and that jockey? It's a lot more about the founder. I was in, when I was working at JP Morgan, I was working with huge companies. I was investing, saying like, you know, you should invest in Amazon or Google or Tencent. And now it's, you know, it's often the founder alone with pitch deck. And you're at the very beginning of that journey, and you're basically getting to know their story and understanding why they're the right jockey and they've got the right horse to win the race. So it's your complete polar opposite ends of the game really. So you're really backing the founder. So this idea might be great. The sector's interesting. The dynamics are there. But is it that chemistry that you're trying to assess? It's less about my chemistry with the founder. I think it's important that you obviously do form a rapport and they're someone that they want to work with, sorry, you're someone that they want to work with. But the reason I really, especially, so we, we work at the seed stage. So you're really, we're sometimes the first investment the company makes, think like dragons and basically the reason that the founder is so important is that at the very early stage, your defensibility versus the next person coming along and doing the same idea is quite low. So it's really down to you know, why is it this individual who will be able to execute this idea better than the next person? Because, you know, you haven't yet built this defensibility. You haven't built this kind of moat, as they call it, around you. So it's really down to, you know, can this individual do it the best and the quickest? Crazy. And you're, and you're focusing technology consumer. Yes. So it's so the fun suite to give you a bit of context is it was founded by the founders of King.com who are most well-known for creating Candy Crush, the well-known game. So they sold it for around $6 billion in 2015, which I think sometimes shocks people. It's so valuable and it was an incredible Yeah, look, I think their investors were obviously quite happy with that. And the founders, when they took some exits from the sale, decided that actually they wanted to use their money to put it back into the entrepreneurial ecosystem and invest in upcoming entrepreneurs who were going through what they've been going through 20 years before. So over time, we've just really decided that the place that we can be most helpful is in the areas that they know the best. So that's technology, obviously. It's things around consumer technology. So think of things like social networks or, you know, anything that has like, I guess, a consumer touch point as opposed to something that's just very deep tech or healthcare that's working in the background. So yeah, consumer technology. And did that fit your interests well? Yeah, you know, for me, it was great because I'd already been focused on the consumer sector and the technology sector. Even when I was at JP Morgan, I spent time looking at, as I mentioned, companies like Tencent, Alibaba, Baidu, and these are really the giants of the Chinese tech economy. And I spent a lot of time looking at what trends were happening in China and then obviously in the US when I was there for my MBA. And so then when I came back to London in 2018 and started working with suite, it was like this, it was a great kind of full circle to come and look at technology in Europe and obviously the US because we still do invest in the US as well. And have you found that given your knowledge of the consumer trends in China or maybe Asia more broadly, the US, is London following suit? Are there differences? Yeah, look, I think, definitely. I think that it's specifically the Chinese ecosystem and let's call it the US and European ecosystem. They're just quite different. And I think that that's partly because if you look at China, a lot of the consumers there really grew up without a broad offline infrastructure. We talk about here, the high street has existed for a long time and how can we migrate people from the high street online? China didn't have a high street. So if you think about it, the generation in mainland China that's growing up now really grew up with e-commerce. It's an immense, obviously it's a huge country and a lot of customers or people were in these quite isolated rural communities. So their real first interaction with commerce at scale has been through the likes of an Alibaba or like a JD, which basically your e-commerce staples there. So I think that as a result, you've got just quite a different consumer behavior. So things in China that are actually further ahead than say Europe and US are things like e-commerce is similar because I think Amazon is obviously very prevalent. But things like financial payments, all of those systems, like the Chinese consumers are very used to operating digitally. Whereas the UK, Europe and the US, we just had a much more robust offline infrastructure that takes a bit longer to shift over. So that's one thing that I find to be quite interesting. Yeah, here it's like it's quite like it's a nice thing to go shopping and a lot of people like to go buy things face to face. But given Covid, I mean, that's completely been sharp. And you've been forced to go online now, which is interesting. And that trend was coming obviously anyway, but it's just had a big kind of shot in the arm. Yeah, I think there's been an emphasis for a while in retail about moving towards the experiential and really making those offline experiences special and differentiated from purely online. But then obviously Covid came along and what's interesting, I think I said this to you before, but it takes around 60 days research says for a habit to become automatic and we're in like close to 100 now. So you have the impact on the consumer side of people getting used to whatever these Covid new consumer trends are, whether it be working from home, whether it be shopping from home, whether it be working out at home. And then on the retail side, you also have some kind of structural triggers that have come in. So a lot of and we were talking about before, you know, some shops have been forced to actually permanently close down their offline stores and gravitate a lot of their sales online. Now, you know, if all the country opens up, as it hopefully will soon, some of those things just won't be able to come back online straight away, you know, as in some of those shops have been closed permanently. So I think actually a lot of the consumer behaviours that we're seeing coming in now are going to be quite enduring in a way that initially, I didn't expect, I thought that people should go back to normal. But you're seeing people actually get used to life now. So it's really interesting. Would you do you prefer to go to a shop and buy your clothes versus online, like when everything's kind of like said and done? What would your go to be now? You know, I like shopping online. And I think it depends a little bit. I think that people like shopping online for particular items and offline for other things, like I don't know, something like shoes, probably or footwear, people, you know, I still want to try in person. But I can't, I prefer online. I'm a big e-commerce convert. I like online. We get all our food online. I've really enjoyed the gym, the gym online now as well. I've really got into and I've got my game as well now. So I'm doing more day. That's the thing is that it's that was exactly one of the trends. So when all of this started happening, and as you know, my job is to really stay on top of what what are the interesting consumer trends that are happening at any given time, but particularly in COVID. So what I did was I started looking to the Chinese market. They've got what, three months extra hindsight, not that much more, but a bit. And I looked at what has actually stayed in place and what has gone away. And I was amazed that a lot of these trends, especially ones like fitness at home, people were still continuing even after they could go to normal gyms. Yeah. Interesting. I can see that. I've luckily got my gym are kind enough to lend me equipment. And so and they went online and me and my wife have been doing it together on like in the garden on, you know, on the thing because we've got a couple of kids. It's been really difficult to, you know, she likes to exercise and I like to exercise. You have to get it. And now it's just, you know, we can do it together. And there's an accountability to it as well. Because my sister as well, she's been arranging, she's arranged Zoom workouts for us every week. And there is that accountability as well, which makes sure that you actually do attend the sessions because it's great. It's super interesting. How have, how have your portfolio companies been affected by COVID? So look, I'd say two things. There are some companies in our portfolio, which have been really exposed to just, you know, one of them is very reliant on tourism and travel. So, you know, that, that company needed to basically, you know, unfortunately, follow a few people and extend their runway to basically save. So, so that company has, I suppose, kind of been on hold and working on a lot of the product. So that's what a lot of companies are doing at the moment. If you can't go out and make sales, you're working on kind of internal processes and saying, okay, how can we come out of this in a better position than where we started. And then the other thing about our portfolio, I'd say, is that because of our background in gaming and our, our investments around consumer technology, some of them have actually had a, you know, their busiest times ever. So, yeah, if you look at, you know, how much all of us are needing to spend a screen time on our phones and our laptops and, you know, obviously that isn't necessarily always a great thing. But for some of our companies who are, say, social networks, we're investing in a company called Peanut, which is a social network for moms originally. Now it's extended to, you know, women across all different stages of life. But for them, they've seen the highest engagement ever because suddenly, you know, moms need to connect virtually in a way that they didn't before. And they've just introduced a video chat on the company's social network because they realized that people were just hungry to go and meet face to face or you can't go for, you know, a glass of wine with your girlfriends, but you can have to do it virtually. So, so for us, actually, all of the companies that have, have really got social media or social platforms or social networks as a core feature have really had to step up and, and, you know, adapt in a positive way, actually. Yeah. Yeah. No, it's great. I mean, obviously, we've seen Zoom share price just skyrocket. But anyway, I think that they connect people together. I mean, Nina, if it's, if it's moms who have just had a kid and desperate for someone else to talk about what they're going through and stuff like that, it's super interesting. It's been a really important resource, I think, for, for, for people not to feel alone. And, and isolated. So it's this, you know, greater reliance and, you know, use of virtual connectivity has, has suddenly now become really, really important. Yeah. Yeah. It's been one of the great things, like, certainly for technologies, a lot of bad aspects of social media that people talk about. But the fantastic thing is this bringing people together during these kind of times. And I think we're lucky that, you know, we've been locked down in 2020. I mean, in years ago, it would have been a whole different experience, you know. And I think that extends even to, to things beyond social networking, right? I mean, I was listening to radio this morning and, and they were saying, companies are saying things like, Oh, wow, we've finally realized that this technology does work and we can actually work remotely. And I think that it's taken a global pandemic for some of these behaviors to really set in and for us to, to be forced to adapt to, you know, whether it be more flexible working arrangements, whether it be, you know, investing in a company without meeting the person in face to face. And I think a lot of these are actually quite positive trends. So I think as long as everyone gets choice, because, because a lot of people I speak to, for whatever reason, they want to go into the office, but they want the, the human contact, the interaction. Others don't, others want a little bit of a mix. So it's been really interesting to speak to, to different companies and how they're structuring their workforces and office spaces and all of that kind of stuff. I'm excited to see kind of what comes out of it. Yeah. And I think a big, a big factor is, do you have kids at home or not? You know, so I think that the people with kids, it's, you know, going to the office is a, it's an ability to, to focus and be in a different environment. So I think that you say it exactly right. There needs to be choice. But I think what's great about this period is that it showed, it's finally demonstrated to managements of companies that you can get around it and, hey, how about we introduce more flexible working arrangements, which it's got to be a good thing. 100%. Yeah. And a lot of the people that were against it, I've spoken to, I'm loving it now. Converts. Yeah. They are. I mean, they're like, never used to use Microsoft Teams or Zoom or whatever. Yeah. And I was speaking to an HR director a few weeks ago, the uptick of users on her Microsoft Teams was like, you know, crazy. Yeah. Yeah. It's a, it's a well, it's, it's, it's a good trend to have kind of, to have fast forwarded. But the, the other side to it is that working from home right now doesn't really mean work, life balance, because like you're finding people roll out of bed into their office, doing very small work than they were before. And people are not respecting the kind of like working hours, let's say. And then, and then you go back to bed and I heard someone say that it's, it's no longer working from home. It's, it's, what was it? It's, it's you're basically home at work the whole time. Yeah. So it's gone the other way. So I think that's something I also struggled with at the beginning was creating boundaries and structures and routine. And I've got better at it over the course of the last four months. But I think that was definitely an adjustment that people had to make, which was really marking when is work time and when is home, home time. Yeah. Yeah. I've kept my diary as structured as I would do if I was coming into the office. Yeah. Because, you know, someone wants to do a call with me at 9, 9pm. I mean, they know at home, I'm not going out. So it's, you know, you don't have a, I don't know, not an excuse, but it's, it's been a bit harder to just be like, actually, no, that's my exercise time or my family time. So you've got to, you've got to draw some boundaries, I think. That took me a bit of time. Yeah. I wanted, I wanted to also have a chat to you about diversity on boards, especially in tech where there's typically less women and what are you, what are you seeing and So for me, I think it's, boards is, is one part of it. But for me, stepping back, I think what's most important is that you see equal representation across all layers of the ecosystem. And I can speak more personally about what I've seen on the early stage side of things, early stage technology or in venture capital. And so as I said, look, I think it's really important that it's not just one aspect like boards or founders, I think that it needs to be equal representation for ethnic minorities and women across all stages of that. And, and if you look at what's where we are at the moment in, in Europe and the UK, you know, 92% of venture capital funding goes to all male teams and around 80% goes to all white teams, which to me is completely staggering, given that, you know, I'm in the industry and I see just the breadth of talent across all different types of backgrounds. So do you see, sorry to interrupt, do you see, do you see more, more male teams and more all white teams present opportunities, ideas to you guys, or are you seeing an equal number? Is it just? Yeah, I mean, for me, I, this is why I find a bit of a disconnect because I don't see that there is, at least in the companies I make, I meet with, I find there to be quite a good mix of people from all types of different backgrounds. I mean, perhaps I don't know if that's correlated that I am a female and an ethnic minority mixed race. But for me, there is, there is just no excuse for, for this queue to be 90% or male and 80% white. And so I think, you know, to, to your question of what can we do about this? It's, for me, I think, as I said, there needs to be representation across all different parts of the ecosystem. But I think also if you look at people around the decision making table when it actually comes to making the investment, you need to make sure that the decision makers are also representative, because if they're going to surround themselves or invest in like-minded people to themselves, you want to make sure that the diversity begins at the investment stage. So I actually turn it to the VCs themselves, to the venture capital firms. And so, you know, I think at the moment in the UK, again, it's something like only 30% of UK VCs have female partners. Or, and I think again, around 80% don't have ethnic minorities who are at the decision table. And so for me, if we can begin to correct the people around the decision making table, that's going to filter through into, I would hope, into all different parts, including boards. And, you know, the quickest way to become a board member is to be a VC and invest in one of those companies. I mean, I sit on around five, six boards. And, you know, I am female and I would be classified as an ethnic minority. So I think that it's got to also, you know, the venture capital firms also need to be quite accountable and very conscious about how they're actually structuring their investment teams to be less male and less white. Yeah. And so that will then really stem down to their recruitment policy, who they spend time with. I mean, there's a lot of aspects. And I probably a lot of it is, and maybe I'm being quite kind here, but probably a little bit unconscious bias. I'd imagine that could play a role. I think that, you know, I'm curious what you've seen from other guests and in your work, but things like blind hiring, I imagine could be effective, redacting the name from CVs. I think one thing that people have been very focused on moving away from in venture capital is this idea of a warm introduction. So for a long time, there was this kind of perception that to be a successful entrepreneur, to get an introduction to VC, you would to a venture capital firm, you should be recommended by someone that you know. And unfortunately, that just encourages more of the same is encouraging more of the same group of people to recommend their friends. And it's this kind of circle that we get stuck in. So one of the things that I try to be very conscious about is not relying too much on those warm introductions. You're never going to stop them. There are a lot of good reasons why you have warm introductions. People love entrepreneurs and they might want to recommend them. But I think it is also important to make sure that you're looking beyond that and reading your cold emails, like reading your DMs that you get on Twitter. And I think that you just have a call with someone if they've got a great idea and they've got a convincing personal story, you don't need a warm introduction to qualify that. But you're probably one of very few that have that mindset. And it's a great mindset to have, but I guess, you know, VCs and PE firms, maybe we'll put them in together. Have so many contacts of people pitching ideas, wanting to meet them. A lot of them just don't have the time, I guess. I mean, it's not an excuse, but this is what I hear. And the warm introduction, for sure. I mean, it goes on like all too often. I think warm introductions also should be diverse. So it's, you know, it's, I think it's just again about having diversity around the investment team and decision makers at the table that are diverse. Because then they have the right to diverse networks. Exactly. And then you're getting warm introductions, but they're from their own networks. And they may be different to the ones that we've typically seen, which statistics show her favored white men. Yeah. But then you can use other people also to introduce entrepreneurs. Yeah. You know, like there's loads of loads of networks that one can tap into. And so I think It's a great ecosystem that I think that I, you know, I encourage, you know, all founders, particularly ethnic minority or female founders to really take advantage of, you know, sign up to these different networks, go to these different events. And there should be people like myself who are investors, who are really looking into, in those ponds for the next founders, they're going to back. Yeah. Yeah. So really network like hell. And that doesn't necessarily mean in person. Obviously at the moment, that's another thing that we've had to contest with, which is there are ways to do it virtually. And look, if you're a mom, a single mom at home and you've got responsibilities, you can't just go to every networking events, which is why I think virtual platforms are really important as well to either find a mentor or to join a conversation of like-minded people and be more efficient with your time. Because again, let's look at the structural reasons as well, why, you know, it's more difficult perhaps for a single mother to go out and network then, you know, a fresh grad out of university, who's male and doesn't have these commitments. Yeah. Yeah. No, that's true. That's true. I think when going back to hiring, you mentioned blind CVs and stuff. I mean, yeah, for my role as a headhunter, there's a lot of companies that- Yeah, you tell me the answer. I feel like you must have experimented with this at least. So much stuff. Yeah. I mean, there's a bunch of things, right? So it's right down to even what the hiring manager is asking for, to even know what they want, the way they communicate it, the way they write the job description, the language that they use that can put people on or off. What's the company marketing like? You know, if a single mom, for example, wants to apply for role and they look at their website, is something putting them off about it? It needs to be pervasive. It needs to be at every- There's no detail that's too small, I think, in making sure you're being consciously anti some of these biases. Yes. Yeah. And then it's then attracting people, right? How do you go find them? So, warm introductions, job ads, headhunters, you know, all of those different avenues, you need to make sure, again, that you're sourcing from as wide a pool as possible. So often, when we talk about P and VC, they all want someone from a tier one investment bank, probably an MBA, these kinds of things, right? Like quite a traditional background, and there are some fantastic people. So, you know, let's say you're born into a low socioeconomic background. You're much less likely to have made the right GCC choices to get the right A-levels, to get to the right university, to be able to go into an MBA. So, I think also companies need to be open to people from different educational backgrounds as well. I agree. My dad, as I said, is a massive hero of mine and I think my dad got expelled from at least two schools that he went to because he's always been an entrepreneur and he did end up going to university half-heartedly because his parents really wanted him to, but he was barely there and he dropped out the first one as well. So, you know, I think perhaps, you know, I don't consider, you know, despite the fact that I have taken quite traditional educational paths myself, I don't necessarily rule out people that haven't come from that path. I think if I did, then I wouldn't admire my dad in the way that I did and the fact that he's always forged his own path. I think in some ways, some investors look to that even more favorably because one of the things you look for in entrepreneurs is resilience and the ability to find a way to get things done and typically actually going to do an MBA somewhere like Harvard to use myself, for example, doesn't always necessarily show the types of of qualities that you're only looking for in a founder. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's important and what I find also is that people that are going through that journey, that they may not have the right A-levels and stuff, they feel often like they're not going to be able to get the funding, they're not going to be able to build that business and so maybe they're not dreaming big enough or they've not seen someone tread the path they want to go down. Which again is a thing about therefore having investors at the table who maybe aren't just from this cookie cutter background. And I know that the U.S., there are a lot of initiatives at the moment at some of the big VCs in America that are putting a lot, placing a lot more emphasis on teams that are from much more diverse backgrounds than this, I guess, using this cookie cutter type example. Yeah. I think we're, well, I'd say it feels like we're getting there, but I think we're so far to go still. You've got to help us. I'm trying. I'm doing my best. If I, yeah. We need it. I mean, we have, you know, I mean, my team is really diverse and, you know, then before the way that we source, you know, kind of mirrors the diversity of our company. So, we're trying. I feel like Europe is a little bit further ahead from the U.S. right now, but again, you know, it's difficult to really, to really tell and get under the skin. I think it's hard to just simply say ahead. There's so many different categories and layers that you could go into, but I don't think either are doing as well as they should be put in that way. A long way to go. A long way to go. Well, we'll do our best. Thank you. Thank you so much for speaking to me. It's been great to speak to you. Yeah, next time we'll do it in your studio in person. We'll do face to face, definitely. Great. Well, great to see you.