 Okay, good evening everybody. Thanks for joining us tonight. I'm Lea Merose, the Director of the Finnish Cultural Institute here in New York. And I'm so happy to see you all here joining our programs together to hear it. We have been collaborating through a Mobius program, which is the program of our institute moving museum professionals, researchers in the fields of architecture, design and visual art across the Atlantic. So, from Cooper Hewitt, a friend, Andrea, Andrea Lips, has been to Helsinki about less than a year ago, but about a year ago, to do research there at the Design Museum. And Sui Salonimi from the Design Museum, Helsinki was here at Cooper Hewitt. And actually this program tonight, which is part of the series of design talks, is kind of like a fruit of the program. And we're going to have two Finnish designers who are participating in the beauty trial now, Kosta Saxi and Thomas Mark-Umbuilka, who are going to discuss their ideas, their concepts of beauty, and their creative work in the field of design. And Andrea is going to be the moderator of the discussion. I just want to use the opportunity to thank Cooper Hewitt for wonderful, wonderful collaboration. Andrea especially, and of course Kara McCarthy, who's also been a great help to us during this process. And also our project manager at the institute, Ilari Lamonen, who's been the driving engine behind the radius program. So, without further ado, and without taking more of your time, please, Andrea. Welcome all of you here tonight to Cooper Hewitt. I'm Andrea Lips. Thank you, Alayna Maya, for introducing us. I am an assistant curator of contemporary design here at the museum, and the co-curator of the exhibition upstairs, Beauty, Cooper Hewitt Design Triennial. So I hope all of you would have had an opportunity to go upstairs and to see it. And tonight's program is generously sponsored by the Mobius Fellowship Program, by the Finnish Cultural Institute. And Mobius, as Lena Maya briefly introduced us, is a program for visual arts and museum professionals that is intended for transatlantic relationships and to foster and create those. And I was fortunate enough to have been a Mobius fellow myself last spring. I moved to Helsinki for a month where I was graciously hosted by the Design Museum. And there I researched and worked very closely with them to share expertise and knowledge about our institutions and about international design practice. I met with countless designers. I conducted studio visits. I attended events and exhibitions. I visited factories and labs and enjoyed Finland's ever-lengthening days. I was there in May and June, which of course is a very magical time of year to be in Finland. So that opportunity very much enabled me to appreciate Finnish design on a much deeper level. And of course that brings us to this evening. So I'm particularly delighted for this very special evening, exploring new frontiers in Finnish design, which brings together two designers from Finland whose work is included in the exhibition upstairs. So both Thomas Markenpoika and Kusta Soksi are two outstanding designers whose work is very much contributing to their fields in remarkable ways. So first tonight, Thomas Markenpoika will speak to us about his work. So Thomas creates everyday objects that seek to elevate ideas of function by exploring metaphysics and meaning. His projects range from industrial design to limited edition pieces for galleries and for collectors, and have been shown internationally in museums and galleries and in art fairs. And Thomas was trained as an industrial designer at Finland's Lahti Institute of Design. And after an exchange at the Danish Design School in Copenhagen and an internship with Marcel Anders in Amsterdam, Thomas pursued a more conceptual path for design. So he graduated then with a master's degree in contextual design from Design Academy Eindhoven in the Netherlands. And he set up his practice in Amsterdam where he currently lives and works. Our second speaker tonight is Kusta Soksi, who also curiously lives in Amsterdam. Kusta is an awarded graphic designer and illustrator whose practice has expanded to include textiles, environments, objects, and more. And all of these are unified by this very playful, almost psychedelic abstraction of nature that pushes at the edge of perception. So we'll see more about that in a moment. His work has also been displayed internationally at museums and galleries. And he counts companies such as Marimekko, Nike, Isemiaki, and LVMH, among those who have commissioned his work. Kusta is trained as a graphic designer also at Lahti Institute of Design before he then moved to Paris in 2004 and then later to Amsterdam where he also currently lives and works. So it's my great pleasure to welcome them both here this evening and of course to welcome each of you for joining us this evening. So the way that we're gonna run this is I will first invite Thomas up and he'll present to us for 15 minutes about his practice and his work. And then Kusta will come up and join us. And then the three of us will sit down for a conversation before we open it up to all of you for questions. And I will also note that as a part of the triennial, our next public program is in two weeks with Richard Neeson, who is a Dutch designer and I would very much encourage all of you to come in and participate in that as well. So without further ado, I would love to welcome Thomas. So my name is Thomas Mark, welcome. And I met somebody with a good introduction from me so I don't think I'm gonna do that anymore. And so the work you see upstairs is the cabinet that I graduated with to do the 12th of December in the high zone. And that project started out as, well, when I was studying in the Netherlands in the DeSanne County, my grandmother was at that time diagnosed with Alzheimer's disease. And for me not to be president in Finland also, they would support my family. And so I still was very much affected by the conditions and I wanted to somehow reflect that in my work. So I was starting to kind of ask questions like why, I mean also to criticize my profession and being like as a designer, like why do we make objects that are so different from us, how we're human beings, that we are fragile, we have emotions, we have feelings, we have dreams and we get inspired and what do we try to control our design ball in a way that it's contrary to how we're human beings. So for me the result was then to make a cabinet to start with and how I wanted to do this is to, I took an existing piece of furniture, in this case it was a wooden cabinet. And I started welding these metal rings around the object to cover the piece like semi-layer. And after which I have covered the piece, I set the whole piece on fire, which you see in this case in this picture. And so what I have left is this kind of exoskeleton of more like a memory of the former piece. And so this was my kind of translation to make objects that are more fragile because I think that's, I think fragility in objects is something that makes more precious to us, makes you more human and that we can really, really resonate with us, we care more about them and they have more of this kind of human aspects in them. And this is also another of my graduation work, so these are the two works I graduated with. And this is two pieces I did while studying and after which I extended the work to further to make more piece furniture. And in this case, this is a chandelier I made for as a commission work for a gallery in London. And I also have included a few other pieces as a commission work for private clients like mirrors and similar work. And here is the work I made a few years ago and it's called Amalgamated. And in a way it has a similar kind of aspect to the origins that I use very kind of industrial mass produce material, which in a way is very kind of anonymous and kind of commodification in a way. And I try to do with this is to kind of translate those into more of a language of my own. So your starting point was to take as the mass produce tool object and to kind of use it in a more holistic way to make the pencil something on its own rather than using it as a primary purpose. And here you see like the pens that are glued on one side to another to form like a large box. And then turned in a lathe to achieve shapes such as these. Maybe it's a bit of a jump there. Maybe it's good to show the video actually in the previous project. So this is like the making of one unit piece I made. And that's me. I was wielding around the chair and grab. Yeah, it's a lot of practice now following that. I think it's show you a video of this Amalgamated collection. So this is also more like a making of video. So it's easy to raise you to understand how the process goes. Also another very, very intensive work. Here. And this is the recent project I did about six months ago. It's called the Distant Lights. And this was kind of like the, it's a bit of a continuation on the topic of my graduation work which is what is kind of like escalating between this temporality and death and memories. And so I focused here a bit more on this kind of Japanese philosophy and aesthetics on like a part of Sabi. And. Who's playing with that? The video is still on. Still? Oh. Sorry about that. So the starting project was, the starting of this project was kind of a, because it is like, it's a cultural tradition that's not inherently mine. It's more like in the Eastern and Japanese form philosophy and metaphysics. So it's kind of a research on like how kind of Western designer approach these topics that are inherently part of my culture. And. So I focused on this kind of Sabi culture which is takes roots in permanence and irregular shapes and austerity. And it's very much opposed to kind of Western philosophy where we tend to take control of our surroundings and environments. So we, you know, try to master it and try to force it into something. And that we try to control it too much. And this, of course, I realized that to try to transfer this kind of very different concept of metaphysics and aesthetics to my view would be very almost silly to try to mimic or to use the kind of traditional materials or the traditional forms of making. And because then like, there's always like a pitfall of when trying to do so, it very easily turns in this kind of pseudo-send jargony and very like use of like just borrowed aesthetics and borrowed concepts and not really formulating your own. So I kind of focused on one aspect on this, what is Sabi culture, which is this rock gardens, cotton sweet gardens, dry landscape gardens. And there's one garden in Kyoto which I visited. I did like an excursion for about six weeks in Japan for this project. And there's a garden in Tokyo, I can't remember, sorry, Kyoto, I can't remember the name of it, but there's one, particularly in this garden and most of the gardens, there's like one way of looking at the garden. Like there's one perspective, one narrow place where you're supposed to be able to perceive the garden as it is. And that was a very interesting point of view that there's one way of looking at objects. But, and then you have these, in the garden, you have these ripples on the stones like they're from the gravel, which is reflecting kind of this pond, like ripples in the pond. And I was very, very curious about like how how these kind of translate into more like, my influence a bit more like western kind of like, scientific or more kind of logic in a way. And so I made these collection of lights which I used a freshener lens as a kind of a projector and a reflector. And because of this kind of a circular pattern, this is the diffraction, I suppose. And which is kind of the same as they have in the rock gardens. And also with these objects, the same way there's not really, there's only one perspective in which you see as intended. So this is the view from the back. So you do get this kind of like a symmetrical pattern from the lens as a reflection. And it always shifts on your perspective, like on your perspective how you move around the room. And on the wall, you see a projection of that light. And so also, this is also my way of putting it, like I didn't want to use traditional materials like clay and wood and all this natural zen marketed kind of magazine communications. And here are the collection of these pieces. So they come in different colors and lights. So I use like LED technology in these and this is the acrylic lenses. And also show you a video of these because it's very difficult to take a photo that would explain it like how the dynamic of the piece as you walk around, close this, so there's not gonna be another video explaining about that. Yeah, and here's the next slide. Hello everyone. First of all, I'd like to apologize that I might be actually forgetting some words because I've been on a really long haul from Hong Kong by Amsterdam to New York, so I haven't really slept a second last night. So like, if I pass out, please help me. So yeah, my name is Kusta and I was born in a small town that was called Govola in Finland. And at one point I wanted to study graphic design at the Lahtik Institute of Design. And I graduated from the school in the year 2000, which is one time ago. And after my graduation, I used to work a couple of years in Helsinki for different agencies. But then 2003, I think it was, I wanted to spread my wings and I moved to Paris. And in Paris, I was working with different fashion labels and did a lot of work for various companies. But I really, at that time, I really specialized in illustration and I've been doing illustration actually for the past 10 years. After four years in Paris, I kind of thought it was enough of that city and I packed all my stuff in a van and drove to Amsterdam instead and rented a studio over there and I felt that it's like a good place for me. And I've been there now for almost nine years and I'm still having my studio there and I'm working and living in Amsterdam. Like I said, I've been doing and specializing in illustration for the past 10, 15 years. And I've been doing a lot of different kinds of projects varying from stamps to posters, all kinds of big and small projects. Like for example, this one is made for a Finnish railway company, VR. So they wanted to have this sort of like scenery from the Finnish nature and countryside and I illustrated their cars in different illustrations. And this one is, a couple of years ago, this is a poster made for PlayStation. And my main material has been paper for the past 10 years and it's been pretty flat and 2D and I think at one point I kind of like got a little bit bored even of this material. But I've been also doing some animation work every now and then. This one is actually an animation work I did for an Italian fashion brand called Salvatore Ferragamo. So it was for their watch and sunglasses one. Then at one point I kind of like got really into installations but still for this project, I was using a lot of paper as you can see. This is a paper pavilion I did together with the Swedish, top Swedish architect called Gjert Wingord. And it was made for Stockholm, furniture and light fair in 2013. And it kind of like, it consisted of over 15,000 A3 papers and it kind of like formed this sort of like a dome. And when you entered inside, you could see this sort of like, it kind of almost looked like an altar and we were really like inspired by Mosaik and from this like old ceiling paintings from churches and temples around. So that really took some time to build up. There was a lot of people working for it for two weeks and it only lasted for two weeks. And then they took it down and all the papers were actually distributed to different kindergartens near Stockholm area. And actually like, because it was like poorly made out of paper, that they had to have the fire brigade patrolling there all the time, so the time being when it was built up so it was so easily planable. This is another installation where it's a shape of an egg and I made it for a Frankfurt book fair for Finnish department in the year 2014. And the shape of an egg kind of like resembles the Nordic mythology where the egg is actually the kind of like center of the universe and then it's been decorated with this kind of like Nordic mythology and all kinds of different creatures. At one point I started to put a lot of pattern design and this is an example of pattern design and it's for Nike's Jordan brand. They are always celebrating the Chinese new year and this is the pattern for the year of the horse and they use it for many different apparel as well. But this is the shoe box and sneakers. And then I've been of course working a lot with Finnish brand Marimekko as well. And I've done, this is actually from my first collection for them and I did quite many prints for their fashion line and also for their home line and tableware and a lot of different things. This is actually a pattern for the tableware tablecloth and here's the same pattern kind of like implied to the teapot and here you can see also some designs. And this is actually my latest pattern I did for them, this is for the summer 2016 collection. It's kind of like flower power. This is really where my current passion is at the moment. I was working with WuL for the first time around six, seven years ago when I designed a collection for an Italian knitwear manufacturer called the Gephard Corvapina. And I kind of like understood like how great material WuL actually is and I really wanted to make more out of it and to understand WuL better. But then like somehow like years just passed I didn't have a chance to work with that. But then at one point, I think it was around like four years ago, I decided to go to Holland's textile museum which is based in Tilburg. And I discovered their jacquard weaving technique and I started to study and I've now been studying for four or five years. And it completely opened up kind of new world for me and kind of like I could actually kind of apply my designs into something like more three-dimensional and I really kind of like the idea that I can actually touch the material and really feel something like instead of just using paper as a material. So I started to produce tapestries and that textile museum is actually very well known for making tapestries for hundreds of years for the castles in the northern France and in Belgium. So they have a long, long history and like the quality is really outstanding over there. But I really wanted to do kind of like contemporary tapestry partly because like tapestry culture is such a rich thing in the Nordic countries. It's also somewhere else, but like especially in the Nordic countries, people kind of like tend to want to use them on the walls at home. And it's such a kind of great culture, but I kind of like wanted to reinvent it a little bit. So I started to make this sort of like contemporary tapestries mixing a lot of different kinds of materials. I really like to kind of combine natural elements or natural materials with something like really high-tech materials for like for example, rubber or plastic or something. I mean, it can be a reflective material or neon because I think they usually tend to become quite interesting results. And this photo is from the Taylor's Museum in Holland. And I mean, actually making, this is actually my third collection of tapestries. And they're all kind of based on dreams. And I have a family member who is kind of like suffering from this like really kind of vivid dreams. They're called hyper-pompic dreams where she doesn't really kind of like know where the where the sleep ends and waking up starts. And I love to kind of like hear her stories from what she's been seeing. And then I kind of like interpret those dreams into my artworks. And this image is actually from a gallery called Siu Siu. It's kind of like an experimental architecture greenhouse slash gallery in Taipei, Taiwan. And I had a chance to exhibit my tapestries there last year. And here they are in Music Center in Helsinki. And actually like last summer, also Röktör Gudmann wanted to use some of my tapestries in their summer windows. And this is a close of that collaboration. And here's some photos of my latest collection, which is called Wool Gathering. And these were just exhibited in Hong Kong last week for the first time. So thank you very much. Yeah. I'm gonna take the mic that works. So you can hear me. Thank you again so much for being here with us and for presenting your work. And I have so many questions to ask you guys. But I do wanna leave time of course for our audience to also ask questions, because I'm sure many of you do as well. You know, I was really struck in both of your presentations by what seems to be this importance of material and process and how those contribute to narrative. And so for instance, Thomas, I'd love to start with you. The piece upstairs, I hope everyone has had a chance to see it. It's the cabinet piece. And of course you've used steel in creating that cabinet. As we were talking about earlier, steel of course is often used because it's perceived as this perfect material. It's often used mass production. But you've really mutilated it and through this firing process and hand cutting it. And so what I'm curious to find out is, you know, if you could talk to us about the importance of material and process itself in your work, where that figures in in your process. Well, I think it really depends on the project. Because sometimes I do start a project. Maybe it is based on a material that I find interesting. Maybe it's the fact that I like, maybe it's the texture I like. Or maybe there are some kind of metaphysics and other ideas I can implement on the material. And then I just kind of use the materials in the medium of bringing out those ideas. And I think it's really, really, really important. Our project plays like, sometimes I can go for months even just to look for a certain effect or not even think about materials. And go several weeks even without sketching or just about browsing the idea of what you wanna do and what you wanna say with the work. Well, and let me ask you about the engineering temporality, like the cabinet, for instance. So, of course, the entire concept behind the cabinet is this evocation of memory and impermanence. And so, did the concept come first and then you decided to work with that material and that process? I mean, how did that, what was that process for you? Well, I mean, it is my graduation work. So, I think most people can understand process is very chaotic. And, of course, the origin of that is it started as a concept, you know, a concept. And I want to work further with it. But I think in that particular case, it was more in the beginning I was much more focused on creating a concept that would be like, in a way understandable and it could have a reach for people that it's, it could translate something into physical work that is very tangible and also understandable to the audience. I think that the material itself came along at some point. And as you say that it was more like as an industrial kind of symmetrical, hard like process material, which doesn't really have these connotations of any kind of human aspect or anything related to human beings. And pencils. I mean, where did, how did you get inspired to work with pencils? Well, I always had this big jar jar in my desk which is containing hundreds of pencils. And I barely use them ever. Like I said, I don't necessarily sketch a lot. And when I do, I only use like a black ballpoint pencil most of the time. I mean, I'm not saying I don't like colors. I just don't usually work with them. But I just wanted to find some use for that. And somehow I, you know, I was showing the video a little bit when, when you started to sharpen the pencils. Like if you sharpen it a bit, not in a standard way, you start seeing that there's some kind of beauty inside of it. Like a structure that usually it's always hidden inside. So I thought, hey, why not do something that just reveals the beauty of the inside, you know, just and multiply that effect and make something bigger, like an entity of smaller units. Oh, that's lovely. And Kusta, materials for you. I, for the past, what, 10 years or so, you were talking about how you work with paper. And ultimately when you went into three dimensions, it was still paper, largely with that installation. I mean, can you tell us about that process for you of then moving into three dimensions and having all of a sudden this, this tactility to your illustration that hadn't existed before? Yeah, like I said, like, I think that completely kind of like opened a new world for me. And like, I was like, I started to be a little bit bored with paper material already. So I really felt that I needed, I needed something else. And I kind of like wanted to create something kind of like a bit more like objects than I can turn around and I can touch and like they feel something. And like... I mean, I'll throw this out to both of you. So does process, in a way, help generate narrative in your work in any way? I mean, Thomas, for you, for instance, with the cabinet, I mean, the process and the material, does that generate narrative? Yeah, of course. Like it's, I think within, if you develop any concept of working materials, they do work, you know, side by side. And I think it's a very good way of also working because the other one always affects the other one. And so it's not very, like my process is never linear. It's not, I mean, I might have an idea that's wanting to be linear, but it's just never going to work like that. So I think it's just accepting the fact that it's just, you know, kind of, oscillates between the concept and the material and it develops to another direction. And I think it just, you need to let it naturally flow as it goes. Yeah, also for me, I think the wall and the sort of like, like really soft yarns where it's just like perfect sort of base for creating artwork around creams because they kind of like, I like the idea that they kind of blur the sense it's a little bit and they kind of like unshark my images in a nice way. So they kind of like, they become much more blurred than if it was, for example, paper. Right. Well, and it's interesting because so much of your work, even on paper, the illustration and such, it seems to be playing with perception in a way. I mean, there is something that's very psychedelic within your work, whether it's on paper, within the tapestries. So where is that interest in perception? Well, I think it's like I've always been interested in kind of like a green world and also kind of like, a bit like weird kind of states of mind in a way and kind of like strange color combinations that, you know, you can, well, I've been also influenced quite a lot of like 60, 70s psychedelic era and like, you know. And Art Nouveau, I definitely see the influence of Art Nouveau as well in your work. Yeah, yeah. And what I really like about Art Nouveau and Art Deco movements is that like, they usually take inspiration from the nature. Would I, I mean, I always, well, many times like when I start sketching things, I usually kind of like start from the natural shapes, from the shape from the nature and then kind of like work on them and simplify them so that they all fit into my world. Yeah. Well, and that's what's so interesting actually, they're in a way, both of your works or practices seem to be about nature. I mean, whether it's, you know, really playing with forms and shapes inspired by nature and Thomas, for you very much seeking to create objects that are much more reflective of our own human condition and fragility in nature. And I'm really curious about, of course, your finished backgrounds and Finland itself, there is just such incredibly magical nature that exists there. I mean, to what extent do you think your finished backgrounds have contributed to your own practice and? I think it has a lot of influence. I mean, like when I was a kid, like we were always like after school kind of like wandering, wandering in woods, you know, like that, that was great the place to go. You know, exactly. And so it kind of feels really in a natural place to be. And yeah, you could always find like surprising, interesting things in the woods. So. Yeah. Also, there were not really that many things to do, if you'll be honest. You said it. That's right. That's right. That's right. Wandering around, right? I mean, how is it for you? Was it similar? Well, I do have a bit of a similar kind of childhood. Yeah, I mean, it's a very kind of boring, concrete suburb. But it was in the middle of the forest, of course, Finland. So yeah, I mean, that was pretty much the pastime between things, always just playing forest doing stuff, going, swimming, building huts. I don't know. So yeah, definitely. I think it has much more like visually, at least much more effect on Gustav's work than in mine. Because I also tend to work on a bit like not so natural materials all do shapes that are now, not necessarily adapted from natural shapes. But you also taught those, so go ahead. No, I mean, the woods were kind of like the only kind of beautiful place in my hometown. Because my hometown is actually, it's many times considered the chair noble of the team. So it's kind of like having the same sort of skyline. But nature. But nature, exactly. That was the place so what you were just getting, so. But it's interesting, though, to even talk about in Thomas for you, I mean, going around and building huts and doing things in nature. And I actually see so much of your work is very much about the physical process itself. I mean, you're very much working with your hands and such. You see that. So what I have to say also struck me when I was just creating nature remarks for tonight is the parallel that exists for both of you. I mean, you both are from Finland. You were born and raised in Finland. And now you're both expats. And you both happen to live in Amsterdam. So tell me about this decision to live outside of Finland and practice outside of Finland. Well, I think it was for me that this is more very clear or a summer, like second, third year of my bachelor's degree. I honestly don't think that there was anything from in Finland in terms of my profession. And it's very kind of limited. It's a very limiting thing you can do in Finland because of the more this kind of conceptual approach to sign. It's not really caught up there. I think it's a very kind of, it still lives on some kind of modernist hangover period. And everything is just, there's no fun. There's no joy in things. And it leaves very little room to work on. And I think it also has a lot to do with, there are very few international and renowned people kind of in Finland. It's in terms of Aalba or Aalba, for example. So it seems like this heritage is also a bit of a burden because you're always a little bit in the shadows of that. Everybody expects that this is something you need to do. This is something you need to be. It's given a very kind of restricted framework. This is how you're supposed to be because you're Finnish. This is what you think, this is what you're doing things in. I think it's a bit of a suffocating environment for me, at least. And I found that freedom outside that it's the only thing you need is a passport. And that's it, it's very easy to go and do what you want. Also style-wise, I think my work has never been typically Finnish. It's always been more of a maximalist. I mean, I always like to do lots of details. And so I kind of, I also think that it was easier to find my audience somewhere else. Yeah. You know, it's interesting because actually when I was in Helsinki and meeting with all of these countless designers, we ultimately ended up talking about this incredibly powerful design history that exists in Finland. And I have to say, actually, the majority of them always talked about it as a bit of a burden. And that you were constantly in the shadow of these greats and sort of these heroes of design. So it's very interesting that you've taken this opportunity to step outside. But yet you still see these Finnish influences, I would say, very much in your work. I'm also curious about even your use of color. Because I mean, you'll have to tell me about this. But color, for instance, upstairs, you'll see the exhibition runs from its very polychrome worlds of multiple colors and collisions of colors to this monochrome world, black and white. And you see that actually in both of your practices. So Kuzda, for instance, you work with just these incredible color combinations. In what way does that respond at all to Finland? I mean, I can't help but think about, of course, the very long days that I experienced. But on the reverse side of that, the extreme long darkness that you have as well. Yeah, I mean, it's difficult to say where this color use, for me, comes from. I mean, it's always been kind of like used a lot of color quite naturally. And I don't know, maybe it does have something to do with a bit colorless kind of surroundings where I was as a kid. Or I don't know, it's really difficult to say where it comes from. Well, of course, I like these good examples of like great color use, for example, like Finnish brand Mari Benko, who's really known for amazing bright colors. And it's also quite psychedelic, actually. Bested up. I mean, that was so cool, seeing that, Mari, I could like, all down. Yeah, I think I spoiled it. Oh, okay. And, you know, the one thing also that I'm very taken with in both of your, actually the pieces upstairs is your inspiration from family members, actually. So, the Hypnopompic series itself, you've mentioned is inspired by a family member. Of course, the Engineering Temporality series, Thomas, is inspired by your grandmother. So, can you talk about the starting point for your projects and? Yeah, I mean, of course, it's like, because it's such a personal project, especially for someone who is actually seeing these dreams. It was a little bit, kind of, maybe difficulty in the beginning, especially when I started to make my kind of like, own interpretations of them. And then, like, then the person who is actually seeing the dreams, like, says like, no, it's not like that, you know. Oh, so you really have feedback. I do have feedback, yeah. So, like, but then I kind of like, then I wanted to go my own way. And I kind of understood that these are kind of my own artistic interpretations of the dreams. And I have the right to do it, so. Yeah. So it's fine, artistic license, right. And for you, Thomas, I mean, just, you know, the starting point, of course, being this very moving moment of, you know, your grandmother being diagnosed with Alzheimer's, you know, the pencils, for instance, that you saw at your desk. And what are, you know, how do you begin kind of your next project where you find your inspiration? Well. Convoluted. Oh. Hmm. Well, for example, there's something that kind of, I stumbled upon a little bit on the last project I did, which is Decent Lights. And for example, reading this book by Tani, the author is Tani Zaki. I think it's written somewhere, I think it's pre-war Japan. It's called In Praise of Shadows. And I, for example, in that book, like he explains, like how I cannot quote him very perfectly, but how is he's explaining, like how, hmm, I should have a book with me here. Maybe to summarize that book in a few sentences, to say that like, there is like this beauty in darkness, all the shape of the grave, and all these kind of murky areas of the house. And that by us, like to say that the introduction of electric lighting into Japanese culture, how it destroys certain cultural forms, art forms, because they were put under the, the, the floodlights, or like electrical lamps replaced oil lamps and candles. So the whole culture was, the whole cultures and art forms were developed under different conditions. So how, how, how, how like this destructive, this can be to a culture. But also like, of course it has practical, practical implications on like, adapting electrical lighting instead of oil lamps. But like, what, what is that we lose in the process of that? Like what kind of, what kind of feelings and emotions are also lost and gone with this kind of introduction with technology? So this is kind of the starting point of like, why? I mean, I'm developing a range of lights that are definitely not, has nothing to do with illuminating. It's more of this kind of, more like meditating or like creating very subtle, more like subtle, subtle shadows rather than subtle lighting. So this, this to take a different, different approach to that. So that would be one of my next projects, yeah. Well, I think at this point we need to open it up for questions. So we'll take any questions that you guys have. What's the fun? I have no idea. Hi, sorry. And actually, is this in Finland? This is actually in Amsterdam, it's a forest in Amsterdam. I mean, it's not a real forest. I was gonna say, you're still stinking out. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Question back here. All right, thank you for your presentation. I have a question which is not top of your mind, but it's something that's important for me or for us. We're kind of two European designers that just moved to New York. And I wanted to just objectively ask you about any kind of differences that you see between European and American style of design or processes or the way people are thinking about design. And I know that most of your projects are either self-initiated or for European clients as so we hear. Just kind of thinking about the world of design as we kind of live in and the age of internet, what are your thoughts on this topic? Thank you. Well, I think it's like overall, it's a little bit pity nowadays that wherever you go, the design tends to be kind of like similar everywhere. But I guess it's because of internet, like you see the same trends everywhere. And like, I mean, it probably was different before the internet, I hope so. But I think like, nowadays it's, you know, like when you travel far away and you kind of like expect finding something really kind of like unique things, you kind of like end up seeing too much the same. And I think that's a real thing. Oh yeah, I mean, I guess this is down to the topic of like a bit of like the originality of work in the sense that like if you are in this kind of flux of trends and fashion, and it's really an international style. I don't think there is certainly anything to say if this is like a European style or if this is like North American kind of thing. Or I think if by looking at the work, you could be basically anywhere from the world. I mean, it doesn't necessarily, the origin of the culture of the person, maybe that doesn't necessarily matter anymore than much. I really don't know what would be the difference, the main difference, for example, between European, European design and North American. I don't really have that much of a... Maybe the question was that the work that you're doing is so kind of, that the work you're doing has this kind of ineffable purity and poetic character that maybe you don't see that much here. That America is just so commercial and everybody is so just getting by, right? Is that really what you're trying to say? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Is that what you're trying to say? What's the point? How do you get to me? Yeah, so. Yeah, because that's, you do see much more conceptual type work in Europe than you do here. Well, I think at least in the case of Netherlands, I mean, I know I've experienced this firsthand that they, well, there used to be much more, but there still is some form of subsidies of support for artists. And so this really enables people, designers, you're nodding there. I guess you're agreeing this. So, yeah, it really makes a big difference because of course you are a little bit relieved from this commercial pressure of making money with your work to the amount you sustain yourself in with your family or something. And I think that really enables artists and designers to work more freely and create something, something, giving more time to do things, giving more time to think over things. And I think it seems like here those kind of support is letting a bit. Yeah, you're kind of thrown out into the world and have to fend for yourself. Yeah, and after time to then start doing it. I mean, let's say like 10, 15 years ago, that was a very different thing, like you could do nettles. If you graduated from school, basically the government would pay you a salary just to be an artist. And you had no commercial pressures. Wow. And you could almost live with that money. Yeah. And just freely create. And of course, if you're income rich, certainly I would need to pay something or not receive those funds anymore, but not anymore too bad. Stay here. Right. So there's a type of design that culture doesn't really exist in Finland. There were like reasons behind the logic that how people still behave. And they don't see the reason why the chair would cost 10,000 euros, for example. Why would I pay money for that? But they do see the reason by 10,000 euros there, right? That's the thing. It's a weird thing about it. It's just a way of like, how you spend your money, what's your priorities? And your car and your chair, I don't know. Like it's just... People in design, particularly in Finland, has always been incredibly democratic. I mean, when you look at Itala and Artec and you've got these incredible design heroes who are creating this very accessible design, it seems like the idea of design being somewhat inaccessible or too expensive seems... Yeah, I think it seems very like a little, it's just kind of a way like everything in a way is thought that it should not cost a monster to money and then everybody should be able to afford that. And well, I mean, it's of course just one way of looking at it and what else it is to be, but... I just kind of wanted... Well, it kind of happened. I think I always had good, kind of like supportive agencies that have been supporting me and who have been like finding me commercial work as well. So I think... Because especially like as a young illustrator, you don't really have the contacts. And I think at that time, especially, those agencies really helped me a lot to come back to find the right places to start to work. I mean, in the beginning, I was working a lot for magazines, but then it kind of like evolved more into... At some point a bit more to advertising. And then after that, to patterns. And so I know kind of like maybe more into installation. So it's been kind of like this kind of like evolving thing. So actually, thanks a lot for that and myself. When you started getting into your installation work with the Jacker atmosphere, were you originally working with a commercial manufacturer to do those things? Or, you know, we said you work for Nike, for example. Like a lot of times, like here, it's really hard to get connections with a manufacturer. I thought I would learn. No, I was working directly with Nike. So, I mean, and I was only kind of like designing the pattern for them. So they kind of like, they took it from there and like made the designs for the shoes, you know, and like adapted the pattern for them, for the products. And then into your tapestries, you have the good fortune of working with the Tilburg textile museum. Yeah, exactly. That's quite a unique place in the world, I think. It's quite an amazing place where the textile museum actually has this kind of like textile lab where you can kind of go with your ideas of making a lot of work and then like they can help you to kind of like realize it. I mean, of course, like they don't actually do everything, but like, but if you have a good idea, it's a great place to work with. All right, and I actually just, before we wrap up here, I have one more question because of course we're here because of beauty, our exhibition. And so we can ask you guys once for the book what beauty means to each of you and I'd love for you to share some of that here. So what does beauty mean to each of you? What does beauty mean to me? I mean, for me, beauty always has this kind of like a fraction, in a way. And you were mentioning earlier this one bit savvy kind of it's kind of like Japanese philosophy based on irregularity, austerity, yeah, oddity, yeah, yeah. And I, exactly. That's finished. And I think there's something really great in this Wabi-Sabi aesthetics that kind of like I completely share in my aesthetics as well, you know, like using like, you know, not making, not make things perfect, but kind of like a bit like asymmetrical and like leaving blank spaces or like things are not kind of, things are never finished in a way. And nothing really lasts and, I mean, yeah. Yeah, I think beauty for me maybe is more like a concept of something that evolves always and changes and kind of mutates. I think beauty is really more like a human interpretation of a thing or over a thing that really gives the meaning, you know, the meaning of beauty to you, whatever that is. And I think, yeah, it's also highly personal and very, very subjective thing. And I mean, I always only have to look at myself and like realize the things that I maybe loved some while ago. I just can't really tolerate that anymore. And yeah, I think it's, yeah, I mean, it's very interesting. Topic goes over beautiful topic, I mean, people's topic, sorry. But I made this a very difficult topic because yeah, I think the concept of beauty will change and it's on a personal level, or some cultural level or social level and I think it's, I think you can have topic beauty every year almost and it's going to have to be the same. But I think everyone is kind of like in a way like aiming to beauty all the time, like whatever they are doing, like they kind of like aiming to beauty. I mean, for example, cleaning up their house, you know, like, yeah. Drink it by having a condition and essential part. So wonderful. Well, thank you, Kusta and Thomas. And thanks to all the people who came here. We hope you all have a wonderful evening. Thank you.