 And we're going to take a little moment to get the meeting going. We have 31 attendees. And 22 panelists at this point, and Sarah Schwartz has joined us. And Evan Ross has joined us. All right. Good afternoon. This is not being recorded. I mean, this is being recorded. It is not live on Amherst media. They are not available on Saturday. But we will make it available on the town website. So given that we have a quorum at the council, I'm going to call the meeting to order at 201. This is a public forum specifically dedicated to talking about the proposed library options. I'm going to take the role of the council and make sure that they can hear us and we can hear them. And I will start with Shalini Balmone. Alyssa Brewer. Present. At the Angeles. Present. Darcy do mom. Lynn Greece Merce president present. Made a Joe Hanna. Thank you, manager. Dorothy Pam. Present. Evan Ross. George Ryan. Present. Kathy Shane. Steve Schreiber. I'm here. Andy Steinberg. And Sarah Schwartz. Present. And Andy. I expect a few more counselors to join us as we go forward. I'm so sorry. The governor breakers March 12th order allows us to hope this hold this as an open meeting. Virtually. I'm sorry. There will be other counselors joining us, but we do have a quorum and I'm going to call an Austin threat at this point to bring the library trustees to order. Thank you, Lynn. Lynn, you might want to just pause and get a drink of water. I think. I'm fine. Thanks. Oh, okay. All right, so trustees Bob Pam. Order Lee. Lee Edwards. Present. Alex. Present. Who am I not seeing who else is here. Lee. Tammy. Present. Okay. And I'm Austin, Sarah Chris Hoffman can't make the meeting this afternoon. So we have a quorum of the library board of trustees. Lynn. I want to just note that three other counselors have joined us. Andy Steinberg Darcy Dumont and Kathy Shane. I want to just make sure they can hear us and we can hear them Andy. Yes. Kathy. Yes. And Darcy. Yes. Thank you. Am I missing anybody that I have not called on. Okay, then we will proceed. So let me just lay out the agenda for the day. This is a public forum and the real purpose is to hear from the public. I'm joined today by library director Sharon Sherry, and by various consultants that are related to the library project. Jim Alexander is here from Fungold Alexander. I didn't notice if Tony or not. Okay. Elan Tierney is from here from Cune riddle. Am I correct about that? No. Okay. Thank you. And George Barnes is here from Collier's, which is the off owners project manager company. Doug Kelleher. It's here as a consultant for historic tax credits. And from the town, we have a manager Paul Bachman and Shawn Mungano finance director. I'm going to be doing this in two parts. And I'll try to keep each in some level of time constraint, but we want to make sure that now that we have these various experts with us, as well as the trustees, that those people who have clarifying questions, get to ask those questions. And to just general statements as well. But before I even say that I want to just thank everybody who has sent in various public comment, we've added a couple of those to the folder because they have specifically stated their public comment. Each of those have been from staff, and I believe we've received we've received four. And I also wanted to say we have received enormous numbers of emails and to the extent possible, we have shared those with the trustees as well. But we welcome, we welcome your ongoing questions and your comments, please send them to town council at emmerced MA.gov. And so with that, I'm going to start the question period and the first question is somebody by the name of Sue, would you please enter the room state your name, where you live. And this is Alex can I just also, we also have Ken guy yet from Collier's the opium, and then we also have Todd Holland who's from our sustainability committee. Thank you very much. Thanks. So people are raising their hands for questions. Sue, can we bring her into the room. Good afternoon. Do you hear me. Yes, we can go ahead. Hi, I am a part of the staff of the Jones Library. I am the head of the months and Memorial Library. My name is Sue hugus. I probably have the only staff member who has worked in the building before the 1993 edition was added. I remember I used to lock up the building myself that time. I'm looking at this whole thing through a lens of also I have been through a major renovation at the months and library and many little renovations we've had to take. I look at this as a triangle. I am very concerned about the public and the staff safety. The staff in the building at least, I would say, nine, maybe 10 hours a day. Remember they're all in there they're all breathing it, we're all there. We have people from the step from the, from the public that can stay many long hours at the computer especially in bad and hot weather. So, I am the only one that has the experience of the old system and the new system. And as I want to know which one will solve our problems the most. I have the triangle where I have public safety here and staff safety. I have flexibility on the bottom of the triangle. And at the very, very talk, I have the air system the AC system. I made a huge change here. First I'll quickly talk about the safety issues. After locking up the building, many times the old building. I was amazed now today, nobody can do that alone number one and you should never send a woman alone. This is very much a problem. We have too many dark spaces too many places to look out one time somebody I locked the ladies room upstairs the old building and they were so desperate to use the bathroom. They pulled the door right open and used it and then walked out when after it set the alarm. So, and we have to remember we are dealing with children. We're dealing with adults. We're dealing with different populations than we had in 1981. That's when I started it's very, very different. So I'm very concerned that if we just do one or the other, we may not cover a lot of these problems that still exist in the old building. I know from experience I used to go through a dark hallway to get somewhere else to walk the building. So flexibility, I'll be very brief. As you know, library services have changed. We will have to constantly change. We will have to have a building that is flexible so we can change and move things around add more areas here, and we move more. I have also seen that the town of Amherst has a very thirsty population for information. It has grown. We are doing different things. So the building has to meet what we are doing, it has to be flexible and change So now I also want to get to the point when we were at, when we did the major renovation at the Munson library, we had two staircases going down to the basement. There was a door on the side of the library part and I was so afraid that when a child went outside, there was a staircase right on their left hand side. We had a staircase out. We had in one staircase and we had a half door so we can make sure that we didn't have any trouble with children falling down the stairs. We have to look at these issues. They are very serious because we are dealing with a huge different kind of population. And the last area I will talk about or ask about is the HVAC system. We at Munson are two furnaces. And I am now separated from my staff, as you know, and I hand books out the window. We're doing have a great job. But what are you going to do when we open these buildings up? Are you ready? Will both plans take care of the COVID situation? This is not going to go away. I even bought standalone units for the library that has an HVAC, the HEPA filter, plus a UBC. How will the plans take care of that problem? So we have two areas that are very serious in my mind for the libraries of renovation. Do you renovate and take away some of the safety issues for our children and our teens and our older people? And also, what do you do about this COVID issue, which you have a chance to be a guinea pig and see what can be done? So that's my question. Which of these will work better for us? That's all I'm asking. I enjoy working at the library. As you know, it's a fabulous place to work. We deal and we work with all kinds of people. Thank you. Thank you for your question, Sue. If we'll pause just a moment. I just want to recognize the Councilor Shalini Balmill has joined us and also Representative Mindy Dom is in the audience because of her ongoing interest in this issue. So I'm going to go then to, hold on. I'm going to go to Austin and ask, would you like this to be directed to the architects? Sure, I just want to say before calling on Jim and Todd Hollander that the questions that were asked about safety and flexibility have been key to the thinking about the renovation and addition to the library from the beginning. We think that the design that Find Gold Alexander has come up with will ensure that the building is much safer than the current building is in terms of open sight lines and that the utilization of the building can handle a variety of different things and different conditions. So safety and flexibility have been key to the architectural design from the beginning. Jim, do you want to say a little bit more about that and about the HVAC and Todd, I wanted to also get in on that conversation. So Jim. Yes. Yes, I think when you mentioned safety and accessibility they sort of go hand in hand. We are definitely planning that this building will be as accessible as any building can be by eliminating steps on the outside so we have an easy access into the building. We also have one feature I think that's important is a staircase in the center which is quite open. We'll actually get light from above and we'll be very well lit which connects all the levels and also gives a good sight line between all the levels. The flexibility inside I think that Austin mentioned is really important. I think having good sight lines, getting rid of these corners and dead end corridors and things that are in the existing library is really one of the major goals of this entire project. In addition, I think we'll be looking at, you know, the exterior when the building is going to be closed and access at night because we have a nice beautiful meeting room that we take care of those issues and the landscaping accessibility as well. So I think that's been really one of the key ingredients working with the library staff that we've tried to address and I think we have very well in this in this case. Issues are of course tricky. We are of course coming up with a brand brand totally new mechanical system, which should be state of the art in terms of addressing those issues of safety and air purity we will be building HEPA filters into the whole system and other means of making sure we have good circulation of air. There are a lot of operational things that people will want to consider some buildings now they're actually before anybody uses the building they're actually doing an air change within the building where the system runs with nobody in it for an hour or so before any any people enter. So these are things that we're all now thinking about in this pandemic era, and probably that are going to continue on afterwards just for good safety and good healthy air so. So anyway, that's I think time you had something you wanted to add go ahead. Thank you. I was really glad to hear you asked the question about ventilation and coven 19. I'm on the sustainability committee I'm not designing any of the systems but that's my profession I'm a mechanical engineer and a PE Massachusetts and for practically the past year. I've been doing nothing but coven 19 ventilation examinations and reports for the state courts for several of the area colleges and K 12 school system so it's very much in fact I'm giving a webinar on Tuesday if anybody wants to attend I'll send you the link. One of the things we tell every person we're working with on these ventilation studies is the primary means of fighting the spread of the virus is PPE distancing hygiene and cleaning and ventilation is secondary and that's straight out of the ash ray organization, which is the American society heating refrigeration and air conditioning engineers of which I'm a member. But when you get into ventilation. The first thing you look at is code level ventilation. Now I haven't examined the existing building but given my experience looking at a lot of similarly aged buildings. I can almost guarantee it does not meet code right now. It's part of the challenges and part of the great things about the new proposed buildings it's going to achieve a substantial reduction in the overall energy use even though the new building has much greater ventilation demands. So that's the primary thing you want to check off code ventilation check. The second one is filtration and like Jim noted, the new building will have advanced filtration. The filters that ash ray is recommending in response to covert are a good idea anyway they've been recommended by the coalition for high performance schools, and we've been designing them into buildings anyhow beforehand. So that's going to be another check. As Jim said, one of the changes in operation is to do a pre occupancy flush period, which is easy enough it's just a change in how you operate the building but it does increase the energy use a little bit. So those are the primary things. And when we're doing these ventilation assessments, if you can't meet any of those first few blocks then that's when we start to think about Portable HEPA filters like you have things like uvc disinfection or bipolar ionization. If you meet those first couple of guidelines of proper ventilation and good filtration. That's what we're using to say the buildings safe for reoccupancy. Thank you. Thank you, Todd. Our next question. I hope it's a question is coming from Martha Spiegelman. Martha please enter the room. State your name and where you live. Athena, can you bring her in. I have she's unmuted. Okay, Martha, can you hear us and please speak. Martha, can you hear us, and can you please recognize state your name and where you live. Are you sure your mic is turned up. Okay, I think what we'll do is have Martha return to the attendance of attendees or participants and bring her in at a future moment. Ellen Brout Lindsay. Hey there. Hi, this is Ellen, Ellen Lindsay. I live on Shea Street in South Amherst. I watched the presentation to the town council and I thought it was very well organized, informative and persuasive, especially, especially regarding retaining the historic part of the building, the sustainability issues, and that the estimated cost of the town would roughly be as for the repair options. So I'm interested in hearing from any town councillors who may be opposed to the plan and try to understand why. The general practice in the public forum is not to have town councillors spend time answering those questions if an individual town councillor would like to that they need to raise their hand. Darcy Jamon. You're muted. Sorry. I just want to interject that the, the energy and climate action committee is going to be coming out with their, their climate action plan. It was originally scheduled April. Now it's the beginning of May. But it's going to have a number of different actions that it's going to be proposing so the hesitation is just that I, I would like to see what that plan is going to be proposing and and balance out the different capital needs. Ellen, did you have any other questions at this time. No, that was pretty much my question. I thought the plan sounds wonderful. I look at our town flag and I see there's a book on it. I think that Emily Dickinson and Robert Prost are two of our most famous residents, and I'm ashamed by our library right now. I was over at Hadley picking something up. It's gorgeous. The library in South Hadley. What is, we've got to think this through we are Amherst, and if we don't do it now we're going to lose this money that's available to us. So I think it's really, really important that we pursue this project. Thank you. Thank you for your comments Ellen. Hi, I'm Martha Spiegelman again. Martha, can you unmute and speak. Don't seem to be having any success. Looks like she might be using an older version of zoom which isn't always compatible with with this setup. So, Martha you're welcome to join by calling in, and that way we can hear you, or you can update your zoom and then rejoin the meeting. Okay, just run an update real quick. We'll go on to Nina Weil. Please state your name and where you live. Yes, hello. Can you hear me? Yes. Yes. My name is Nina Weil I live at 103 High Street I moved to Amherst in 1989. I chose it for the schools I had two children. I just want to say that the presentation for this library project I think is great. But I do have two questions. And the first question is, what is the plan for keeping the library operable during construction. I think I heard some mention of a chat of a plan to relocate it. If that is in the plan, where would that be. And the second question is, how do you justify that the town of Amherst will have about two square feet of library space per capita. If we do go ahead and build this addition. And the rule of thumb is more like a half a square foot per capita for a library for a community about our size. And they're just so many pressing needs in our town. So I just was wondering a little bit about justifying such a beautiful gorgeous big library. I'll start with the first one I'm going to go to Sharon Sherry and talk about operations. So, specifically what I heard is it has to do with the interim library services so while the library is under construction, we are required to provide library services just as they always are. Just beginning talks with with Paul the town manager to talk about different places we can relocate to, but it is, it's a part of the contract that the town will sign with the MVLC so library services will continue. And we don't know where yet. Correct. While you're on that particular question, do you see the same level of staffing occurring during this time period. Yeah, thank you. Yes, all the stuff. We will need them now more than ever. That includes at the two branches in fact because of the we have the two branches, there are opportunities there for us to increase the open hours there. And the North Amherst library with that building project in play, depending on when that gets finished, the meeting room is certainly a possibility for our collection to move into a programming space so there are lots of different options but yes staffing and services will continue. And the second question I think gets back to when we had on Wednesday, which is really around. How do we count the population of Amherst, and then when we do that. The speaker Nina has said well that puts us at two square feet per capita. Can somebody speak to the numbers, Sharon. Well, it's a fabulous question. I have to say, you know, based on my experience. I've worked in seven other municipalities before coming to Amherst. And this is the first city that I've ever worked in where when I walk into a room, I do not have to justify the need for a library where we're already all in the same page. So, you know, regardless of what you, how many people you say are in Amherst, the facts are we are the 20th busiest library in the state of Massachusetts, and this town, very much values education, and they very much see the importance of the public library in, and the importance of lifelong learning so I, you know, however the numbers play out I haven't done the math in that way but however they play out it doesn't surprise me if there's that much library square footage in the town of Amherst. May I just say, Lynn. Yeah. So again this is a this is a very good and interesting question. The way in which libraries are designed the way in which schools or other public buildings are designed depends first and foremost on the program. It doesn't depend on a mathematical calculation of how many square feet per person. You can have a town that has a very large population, but doesn't do much in its library. You can build a library with the program space needed if you had a lot going on in the library. So the way to think about the space utilization depends upon what the program needs are. And the design of this library has been driven by its program needs, not by a mathematical formula. So our formulas that can be used, you can look at the population of the town. You can look at library card holders, or for example, you could look at users of the library. And we have about 220,000 people that come into our library every year. That's a very large number of users of a public library. Aaron, do you want to just say a word about how it is that the 227,000 figure is arrived at? How do we know how many people are using our library or each so each library the Jones the months and in the North Amherst library. We have a patron counters digital patron counters at each entrance and so somebody comes in and it adds one and somebody leaves and it adds to and so at the end of the day. There's software that automatically takes that divided in half and that's how many people came into each building each day. Thanks and Jim, Jim Alexander. You gotta unmute Jim. One thing that occurs to me we've done you know quite a few libraries across the Commonwealth but you know each town is really quite different. I mean you have a very, in a way unique situation with your special collections in Amherst because of its, you know, its history and the people who reside and who've left their important papers there so. So we have I think a very large component of the special collection we have the art gallery component and exhibit space. You have a very active program with ESL and other programs that we often don't find given this much credibility and importance in other libraries so I also I think I was looking at the Hadley numbers and I think they've just built about an 11,000 square foot building in the published numbers I think are around 5,000 square foot population so or 5,000 population so you know so again there's a two to a little over two square feet per person so I think it just varies really quite a bit by town and what the goals are the program. Thank you Jim. Okay, I'm sorry Alex you had your hand up earlier would you like to add to this. I didn't I think Jim made my point which is one of the things that makes our library unique is the space required for the ESL the Burnett Gallery and for the special collections. And so our space per square person however you want to call it is always going to look bigger than other libraries that don't have those same spaces and space needs. All right, we're going to go to somebody who is on the phone so it's caller number 7796. Would you please enter the room on mute state your name and where you live. Hello. Yes, we can hear you. Yes. Okay, good. This is Molly Turner. And I live at Old Town Road. And I have a question for the trustees and particularly the treasure of Bob Pam. And that is about the use of the endowment. I'm not absolutely clear about what the suggestion is, but that the town that the library is pledging a certain amount of money to be raised with their capital funds program. If they don't meet the target that they're willing to put a large part or some part of the endowment into that fund for that fund raising, and I'd like to have a little clarity about what that plan is. And if this does meet the responsibilities of the fiduciary responsibilities of the trustee of an endowment. Bob Pam, please unmute and go ahead. There is no question that we use and need the endowment we have been using that for roughly half of the non town costs of the library that covers things like books and it covers heat and electricity it covers insurance it covers all of the other things that are not covered by personnel, or by capital work. So for us, you know the endowment is clearly critical. As of December, it was worth something over $9 million. As of this past Friday or Thursday, I think it was still $9 million that is going up and down. It is an investment fund and so it's going to move from time to time. What I did is try to think about what are the likely wrong things to happen in our fundraising. You are aware that we have projected that there is money available to us through five different sources. I will go through all of them but you know the part of it is that from local sources we are anticipating raising about 3.3 million dollars or something of that order it may go up and may go down depending on how the rest of it all works. So let's look at what would happen under a variety of circumstances and started with the assumption that rather than it being valued at $9 million it was valued at $8 million and then looked at what happens if our fundraising fell short by $2 million. And then what the board has authorized is that we would guarantee the difference which would mean that we would have to take $2 million from the endowment. The question that arises is, is that going to be the right number and how long would that be true? Portions of it clearly would happen. The historic rehabilitation tax credit which we depend upon is not available until there is a certificate of occupancy meaning that the project itself will have been completed. So we cannot reach into that portion of it until some moment after the project is completed. So clearly that is something that will not be available until later and if we have to borrow money in the short term in order to wait for that to come that is something that we can deal with. Similarly, if we get any grants because it is a highly efficient, highly energy efficient and sustainable building, there may be grants that come with that, but those grants are likely to say prove it. And therefore they may not be available for six months or 12 months after the project is operational. I understand that we have to think about that, but that is still a short term issue. There are longer term issues which would mean that the total fundraising has come short and the question then becomes how do we then make that up? The critical point to remember is that we are doing fundraising, not just up to the point of the completion, but we will continue doing fundraising after the completion of the project. So if we think about what the town will think about a newly renovated building which is brighter, cleaner, better in all kinds of different ways, will people still be willing to provide funds, contributions, gifts to the library for that purpose. I don't believe that they would continue to be fundraising, that it would continue to replenish any gaps that have occurred within the endowment, and consequently we should be okay if those fundraising occurs. There are calculations within a five year period or within an eight year period, and so that seemed to me to be a reasonable way to think about it. The other question that arises is the reason that we depend upon the endowment to the degree that we do is that only a portion of the money that we need comes in annual gifts from people who live here and use the library. The year or two, as you may know, we have consolidated our fundraising with the Friends of the Jones Library so that people receive only one request at a time. They don't see one letter saying give money to the Jones and a second letter saying give money to the Friends of the Jones. Over the past year or two, the fundraising committees within that structure have been increasingly successful, and to the extent that that success continues and increases as we move forward, then that would reduce the amount of dependence that we have on the endowment. So, my conclusion at the end of doing these various pieces of analysis was that it was not an unreasonable bet, and I have to call it a bet that we would be fine. I would never guarantee that. I don't know what the market is going to do. If the market collapsed, then we would have larger problems. If people hate the library and stop giving money, that would be a problem. But as of now, looking at where we are and thinking about what the project is about and what it will do, I don't see that as an issue. There's only one other thing which is what is important is that this be not a divisive issue. What we don't want is to end up with people in town saying they were on the wrong side, we are no longer going to support the library. It's too important for us to allow that to happen. And whether you think it is a good idea or a bad idea for this library to be expanded, just remember the library is still a good thing, and all of us should be able to support it. I'm going to add to what Bob has said because town manager Paul Bachman and I have been in discussions with the chair of the library trustees and the director and Mr Bachman has also been talking to legal counsel about what this agreement would look like. One of the factors of the agreement would be that it would not even kick in until the fifth project. So it gives a wide window for the fundraising to happen. And the other thing I just want to support from my own experience during fundraising for the armor survival center and that is that when you do a capital campaign, what you often have is more friends at the end. And your more friends end up being ongoing and continuous donors. And so it's a way to expand your own donor base. So I think your assumption that you may end up with ongoing contributors to operations is not at all inappropriate. Paul, did you have anything you wanted to add to that? Okay, Dorothy, you have your hand up on this. So just a follow up question to the fundraisers. Are they exploring opportunities naming opportunities in the fundraising. Can't forever. Yeah, the answer is unequivocally yes, but until you have spaces defined. I don't know what to offer name exactly, but that's an absolutely essential part of any kind of a program and the trustees have already been asked about this in principle, and have suggested they have no objection to it. I'd like to include another question that has regularly come up from residents and the council, and I believe that I'm looking for your person who is your expert Doug Keller are on the issue of historic tax credits could you just explain a little bit about how that works. So the program that we're proposing here is pursuing the Massachusetts historical rotation tax credit program, which is a program that's administered by the master's historical commission under the Secretary of State's office. It's a competitive program and it's competitive and that they have limited tax credits available on an annual basis to distribute to projects. They do have 55 million available annually. However, it's a very popular program, and there are three application rounds throughout the year. And typically what happens is you typically do not get an allocation of credits in response to your first application. But if you reapply, you know addressing whatever questions or concerns that they have, you do. You are likely to receive an allocation of credit. One of the benefits of the program is you're able to continuously apply for additional credit throughout the construction throughout the design and permitting and construction until basically until the project is completed and placed into service. So that being said, you there are three application rounds a year you can apply in each of the rounds continuously year after year throughout construction until completion of the project. The way it works for nonprofits such as the Jones is, even though the Jones has no state tax liability, they are able to receive these credits, but yet syndicate them or sell them to an outside investor who does have tax liability. The benefit to the investor is they're able to buy them for slightly less than face value. And I would say currently the state stroke tax credit is selling at roughly 85 to 90 cents on the dollar. So pretty close to the full face value. So again, the investors able to purchase them for slightly less than face value, but then is able to use them for the full face value. The benefit to the Jones would be they're able to take these credits, which they obviously given the fact that they've no tax liability. They're able to then take the credits and then turn them into equity finance the project. As Bob mentions, however, the credit stones until the completion of the project and that's when the transfer the credits from the applicant entity to the to the investor takes place. But it is a very, you know, it's the program allows for up to 20% of the qualified rehab expenditures. And based on the figures that that we've been using. That's roughly 1.6 million. Again, that 1.6 million would likely be accumulated over, you know, the next couple of years throughout the final design phase and throughout construction. Thank you for that. I think tax credit. Great. A mystery for some of us and we appreciate your adding that. I'm now going to bring Farah, I mean, into the room. Kathy, I'll come back to you as soon as we're done. Hi, my name is far on mean, and I live in district five. I have a comment and a question. First, actually, I want to say, give a huge shout out to Sharon Sherry and the staff at the libraries. You have been amazing during this pandemic. I can't tell you what a life saver it's been and I hear that from all families so thank you. And thank you to all of you for spending a Saturday afternoon on zoom. I can't imagine anything worse than this right now, but. So I want to say that I like my husband was a trustee at the Jones so I've been hearing about the renovations for a long time. And I want to emphasize that this is, this has we have been really so excited about this proposal and the fact that it's going to be one of three or four more sustainable buildings in our town. That's the town's climate action plan. I, I understand that if you were doing the bare minimum repairs, it would cost about the same, but it wouldn't reduce the energy use by 60% and I guess my, my, my, my question my point is, especially to my district five rep Darcy Dumont, whose signature interest is climate change, and I did write to her about this, but I'm still kind of wrap my head around the fact that some, some are not excited about this project and advocating it more rigorously. And just to give a context for me. I'm thinking about the school plan back in 2016 which town meeting shot down, and the fact that it's going to cost us 7.2 almost 7.2 million more to build a school than it would have cost us in 2016. So, I guess what I want to say is, why are we just not going with this plan so that we can stick stay straight ahead with the town's climate action plan, and go ahead to the other more other capital projects that we are also excited about. Thank you. Thank you for your comment. Kathy, I believe you might have had a question you wanted to go back on. Certainly we don't allow questions, but go ahead. You're not muted. Kathy. I had a follow up question on the tax credit because I wanted to ask so it's not on the same topic so, please go ahead. You stated that you think it qualifies for about 1.6 million, but you only get 80 cents to 90 cents on the dollar. So, would we do a range on what the town might expect of take 80% of that or 90% of the 1.6 so the range would be in the 1.2 to 1.4 million. Or were you giving us the 1.6 after the 80 cents on the dollar number. It's just, it's a, it's a small question, but it's, it's a reasonable amount of money so I'm on the finance committee and I'm just trying to gather the financial information. We will have an opportunity to bring back consultants for the finance committee. Okay. So, but Doug, do you want to answer that please? Sure. So, I, as I understand it, the figure that's been provided is simply based on a range. And I don't know Austin, if there's others from the on the side, possibly Bob that sort of for the 1.6 million dollar figure. I think that was based on the range. Yeah. Qualified expenditures. Kent, do you want to say, say something about our estimate about the historic tax credits. Yes, my understanding is that the 1.6 estimate is the, is the net to be received, but that can easily be clarified. Okay. I'm going to suggest that we come back to clarify that for the finance committee meetings. Those two meetings are coming up. There's definitely 16th of March at two o'clock. And there is another one that has been set aside if we need it for March 30 at two o'clock. And this has been referred by the town council to the finance committee to explore all of these financial questions. I'm going to go back to additional audience questions. I'm going to turn to Leah Vernon Jones. Please come into the room, state your name and where you live. My name is Lydia Vernon Jones. I live in Jones library neighborhood and have lived in Amherst since 1981. Who doesn't love a library. Our attraction to libraries can be very emotional. Some love the old familiar one, where they spent hours reading and browsing. Or any new one with the latest technology, or some just love the one that's close by. Who doesn't love the earth, the plants and animals on it, the climate that we grew up with air that is healthy to breathe, etc. We have a climate emergency, Bernie and AOC aim to require Biden to declare a national climate emergency. This affects our creativity, our financial resources and our time need to be spent on mitigating the effects of our towns contribution to climate change, accelerating the phase out of fossil fuels, equitably reducing emissions and protecting our community from worsening climate impacts. The picture is lately a flooding freezing wind. We need to increase our community resilience, such as creating micro grids for access to electricity. We need our town counselors the town boards and the town staff to be following the lead of the energy and climate change committee on allocating financial resources and staff positions to carry out the plan that is soon to be presented to you. We are a very unusual town. We have six libraries, all of which are open to the public and all which have books, computers and other resources for all ages. And most of them are wheelchair accessible and on a bus route. During the pandemic we have been forced to do things differently and learn that people can change when there's an emergency. We need to figure out how to coordinate with these other libraries and how to use empty space owned by nonprofits, churches, and the town for programs that don't fit in the current Jones library. A person who wrote a letter to the Gazette in favor of the library trustees demolition and expansion plan said, we deserve an expanded library. The first residence deserve is a town council that puts ending climate change as its top priority. And I urge residents to contact their district counselors with their thoughts about how our precious town dollars get used. And please get the information that you don't have on what it would cost to retrofit the current Jones building and vote against this plan. Thank you very much for your time. Thanks, Lydia. Please enter state your name and where you live. I lead Jennings. I live on strong street, and I had some comments but I understand now that I will just ask questions so I'm happy to first ask. Is there a feasible way to eliminate the use of possible fuels without doing the renovation and addition project. I'm stressing the word feasible and is there a feasible way to provide a reasonable dedicated teen space without doing the renovation and addition project. One of the reasons because two things that are important to me are climate change and my children and my children who are six and nine now will not benefit from any new school project, but they are of a generation that would benefit from a teen space in the library and it's always been very disheartened by the sad corner of the basement where teens have been relegated in our library and I feel confident that there's no way to reorganize the space without doing the renovation and addition to accommodate them but I wanted to hear from people who have studied it even further about that. Thank you. Issue. Lynn, may I just say something. Again, very interesting question. The original vision of the Jones. I think this is a wonderful moment when the past and the present and the future come together the original vision of the Jones library was as a place to bring the entire community together. That vision of the Jones library, a place to bring the entire community together. The old and the on the rich and the poor children and adults has been central to the Jones library vision throughout its history. As we look to the future we've studied very carefully. What the best minds say about libraries. And what they say is the vision that infuse the Jones from the beginning is the vision of the modern library going forward. That's a library that doesn't disaggregate and pull things apart and send some community members to some building and some community members to some other building. The addition of a teen space or the creation of an adequate children's room. The restoration of the beautiful reading room that was in the original Jones library that theater. That's a vision of the future of public libraries. In college towns all over the United States. Some big some small. Whether our college libraries wonderful libraries. If we look at Cambridge not necessarily a model for our town. Harvard libraries are there MIT libraries are there. Those towns have and continue to invest in their public libraries. Because they are central to the vibrancy of the community. As to that whether we can achieve climate goals in a retrofitted building. One thing we know is that to achieve more than a minimal. Repair and accessibility for the existing building would cost about what we're asking the town to invest now. And we've done a lot of work to make sure that the library plan that we're presenting to the town fits with what we understand to be the commitment of the town. To sustainability this would be one of the most sustainable buildings in our town. I wanted to ask Todd how to comment on that whether or not he agrees with that view. Thanks Austin. I think to understand the emissions reduction is requires a couple of things one is that the existing building. Most of the greenhouse gas emissions are from natural gas so it's primary. The use and emissions are due to the use of natural gas for heating. If the building were brought up to code ventilation that would actually get worse you'd have to, you know, under cold outdoor air you'd have to heat that all up to get it and move it into the building and out again. In order to move the new building is going to use heat pumps for the heating portion and replace fossil fuel entirely. And what that enables you to do is buy renewable electricity. That's essentially zero emissions so it enables a 100% reduction in emissions that you can't get if you're still using gas. There's no renewable gas unless you're sitting on top of a landfill and burning the methane generated. So that's not really an option. And when you renovate a building to get to where you can use heat pumps to replace natural gas, really takes a pretty substantial improvement in the envelope, and it's difficult to do that in the renovation of a building. And just because the heat pump is a much kind of more small bore tool, you're not burning the fossil fuel, you're not making really hot air to blow into a space so it really requires a much more efficient envelope. So, by going with new that it that really enables you to switch to the heat pump technology, which enables you to go to all electric, which enables you to go to renewable electricity. So to have those three that they're there really all those three facets are related in getting to zero emissions and I think a requirement to get to zero emissions for this particular building. Thanks, Todd. Thank you. We inadvertently lowered the hand of caller number of seven nine three four. And so I'm going to take that person next and have them come into the room. Please state your name and where you live. You need to unmute Athena. I've sent a request to unmute. Is there something that caller has to do. Just checking to see if I can do anything else on this. Thank you. We certainly would like to hear from you, but because you don't seem to be able to unmute. Let's have you go back into the audience and come back in. Okay. I'm going to go to anesthesia or Nez. Hello, can you hear me. Yes, you can. Okay, great. Hi, my name is anesthesia or donors and I live in district two in Amherst on Dwight circle. And I have a couple of comments and a question as well for the groups here but first I just wanted to say thank you to the town council for holding these forums this week. So that our residents can have their say and have their questions answered. It's really important for transparency and just for full engagement and local government. So I really wanted to say thank you for that. I and my family really appreciate it. And I also just wanted to say thank you to the library trustees and to all the volunteers and staff that have spent years thinking and planning for this project. Thank you for taking time as I have reading through all of the materials that have been put together, watching the videos it's clear that there's been a lot of thinking, and a lot of careful planning and deliberation that's gone into this and a lot of listening to the community so also thank you for the incredible amount of work that has gone into that. The next comment is I just, oh, and also a real quick thank you to Todd Holland for so clearly and articulately explaining the sustainability of this project I think that it's very confusing for some people and you know I hope that everyone has been paying attention very carefully to what you just said today because that is really really important information for us to hold into to you know kind of put front and center. We really support this project. We think it's fiscally responsible. And we also know that we've been waiting for seven years to get to this point. Again, in looking through all of the documentation around this project and seeing that the initial applications were put in and that we are now in 2021. It's been a very long time to get to this point and so you know we think that it's it's about time that we, we, you know, are ready to say yes to this project and to not turn our backs on the state aid, the BLC aid that would help make this project a reality as this is just something that we've been talking and thinking about for all of these years. It's clear that just going into our library that there's been years of neglect, and we've been kicking the can down the road for too long. And that's not an option and it's a very similar some another caller had mentioned our school building project here in town. The library is very similar to that it is, you know, a very well loved building and, you know, I believe I've heard people say that it's the most building in the town of Amherst. And it's just, you know, incredibly disheartening to me and my family to think about the number of people who cannot access different parts of that building, and who have difficulty, you know, even getting inside the building and going into the different stacks and being able to use the community spaces and all of that. And it's unconscionable that we have a solution that's been put in front of us that has been worked on for so many years, that is sustainably sound that is helping us meet our climate change goals. And I think that is going to provide a real solution for community members who now at this point are frustrated by the lack of access, and that we are still considering saying no to this to this money. We find that incredibly frustrating and and really demoralizing. And I think my question to the group that's here is, you know, what is plan B look like right. I know to the state aid if we vote this down from the town council and do not commit money to pay our share. What happens after that point. Clearly we can't just ignore the repairs that have to happen in the library. So what does that look like and I'm hoping that either library trustees or town counselors or some of the other staff might be able to answer that question. Awesome. We don't have any here. So I can think I think I can answer that question of the library trustees studied various alternatives at the beginning of this process. We examined a variety of ways of trying to meet the needs of the library. There is no way in our view that you can accommodate the programmatic needs of the library within the existing footprint of the building. So that's one answer. The town council asked us to update on estimate that we've gotten from Western builders several years ago for the mere repair needs, and that means mechanical electrical and plumbing needs of the library. And we asked Coon Riddle to prepare an estimate of what it would cost to do the mechanical electrical and plumbing repairs that are needed, as well as to make the library compliant with federal and state accessibility codes. If the town would have turned down the renovation and addition plan. If the town would be faced, we would all be faced with between a 14 and 16 million dollar expenditure. To upgrade the mechanical electrical and plumbing facilities of the library and to make it ADA and state law compliant. None of that would produce more space. None of that would reorganize the space. None of that would deal with the absence of a teen room or the fact that the children's room is on three different levels or that special collections is running out of space. Plan B would be on expenditure just about the same amount that the town would have to expend to renovate and add to the library. And it would produce a library that would have no more space and no more ability to accommodate the programmatic needs. Thank you, Austin. Something. And one of the concerns that people have been just discussing has been, can we afford to do all of this at the same time. And so I've been thinking about what would happen if this project is is denied. Instead, we then talk about doing the plan B, the repair only. And my guess is that the same concerns about can we afford all of these at the same time would apply. And consequently, the repairs would not happen within the next two years or four years or six years. The same issue would apply. And finally, I just don't understand how the repairs that are necessary that everybody agrees are necessary would happen in any reasonable period. The second part of that is that I think everybody understands that the, the building itself is not totally functional for a variety of reasons and they've been described by staff. They've been described by lots of people. We would have to do some redesign and eventually we would discover that we can do some things but not very much of it. And the concern that I have is that we would then get to repairing the building as it is now, and 10 years or 15 years from now, we would again be looking at, okay, now let's do the whole job. And that is not a financially reasonable way to proceed. Anyway, that is where I come out. Thank you. Thanks, Bob. And Anastasia, thank you for your question. Thank you. We invite Ludmila Pavlova-Gilhem into the room. Please state your name and where you live. Hello, my name is Ludmila Pavlova-Gilhem. I live at 350 Montague Road in Amherst. And I am very happy that I'm following Anastasia with her comments because I'm very much in agreement with her. My question to the team is how will you ensure, because I think you must, that this building becomes a resilient resource for our community and more importantly for our children and those who have special needs to access space during times of extreme climate conditions. We've been talking a lot about sustainability and the need to reduce carbon emissions. I do think that the town and everyone else that I know is struggling to think of how to increase the availability of renewable resources for energy out of transition to electricity that is more in line with being supported from renewable power. And so I expect that the building will be built sustainably from an energy efficiency perspective. It will meet at minimum building codes which will help with universal access. It will help with lowering energy use in general and it will be a transition building to the new electric systems that are more driven by renewable power. So how will you ensure that if we had freak storms like what is currently being experienced in Texas or the ice storm that we had in Halloween a few years ago, that the community can come and stay warm and be together, whether it's teens or people who are have issues with access. How can those individuals be supported by this by a library that is ultimately that is going to be our newest addition to assets that the town owns. And hopefully they can really be a location where people can come and get support during extreme conditions. So may I ask Alex, first of all, speak to that and then Jim Alexander Alex. So, let me let thank you I love that question. And so the sustainability committee that we formed has many purposes and so far their first purpose was around informing design work around sustainability. But one of the later phases of the committee is actually specifically related to the importance of libraries around resiliency in a community. So how do we act as a leader in terms of what's possible and showing the community what's possible, working with the town in terms of ways that we can be a space for climate emergencies in the future. So that is definitely going to be part of the planning of what this new building is about and how we move forward. And we still have one opening on the sustainability committee if that's something you have expertise in and want to bring in so that would be great. So thank you. Jim Alexander you need to unmute yourself Jim. Yes, I think Alex has said it very well I would also say that you know we are at still the schematic stage and so while we've made this very I think strong commitment for sustainability in terms of systems in terms of even construction in terms of the low carbon. And this is something I think they can evolve with the committee as we move into the next phases of how this can be a safe. I mean an area of safe refuge requires a lot of thinking about it because there are standards that you know you have to apply, which are above and beyond. And that's where the sustainability committee can can work with us to decide how far we want to go up to things like an additional emergency generator emergency systems, these are things that do need to be considered because they, they are a considerable cost increase to really achieve an area of safe refuge. So we really need to look at that as we move into a later phase. Thank you for your answers. Just as a follow up I do think that the point the previous that Anastasia was making is very much in my mind as well that this building is not, although we're all very conscious fiscally and don't want to either spend more space than we need, because we have climate change crisis, or we don't want to spend more money than we can afford. We need to keep in mind that we're building this for the next generation. We're not building it from my generation, and we're borrowing and they're going to be paying for it. So, this is not the time to skimp. This is not the time to actually limit what our future generation, especially our teenagers are going to need in order to access and be proud of our is of our town. My teenagers stopped wanting to go to the library after they grew up. I mean they were there when they were children, because the space was seemed very accommodating to small children. But the moment they got older they just didn't want to be seen there with their friends and so on the weekends they don't have a library to go to. There was a previous speaker that was talking about how we have six libraries in town. I don't think that they would ever have gone to Amherst College, or even to your master too young to do that and don't hang out there. One of the things that I saw from this project actually show a library where teenagers would enjoy hanging out at least to my family's need and I would also hope that as you're designing it, you would think of the detailing and the construction to be able to address the long term maintenance needs of the library as well. And I sat through the questions and discussion at the last meeting, and someone else was mentioning the need for the architecture to be done in a to not skimp. I think that details and materials are solid and last for the next 50 years and also can withstand the kind of environmental change that we're going to be experiencing so thank you everybody for the work you do. Thank you for your comments, and for your questions. Tony Cunningham please enter the room state your name and where you live. Hi, my name is Tony Cunningham and I live in North Amherst. And my question is around project costs. We've recently seen that cost caps have been proposed for the fire station of 15 million and for the public works facility of 20 million. The figures must include the upfront cost of providing renewables to make those buildings net zero, assuming the budget cap for the library project of 36 million is firm. If later total project cost estimates come out far higher than that, where can significant savings be made. Is there flexibility in the state state grant rules around square footage. How much square footage could be cut from the program and the design while still complying with the state grant. And likely is it that the sustainability measures would be cut in order to reduce the cost. And lastly roughly how much would it cost to purchase offsite renewables to generate all of the electricity needs of the expanded building. Since this project is for a building that is not owned by the town, it is not required to include the cost of renewables. While the school project fire station and public works projects will be required to include those costs in their budget caps. Thank you. Any other questions, Tony and Austin. On the project cost I think we want to bring in the OPMs. And they can talk about the project costs and what we're going to do to ensure that we stick within what we are allocating. Ken here's George here. Yeah, George here can unfortunately had to leave for another meeting. With respect to project costs, we have a series of checks and balances that initiate basically starting with the schematic design process where we do a number of cost estimates not by a single entity but will retain to sometimes even three different cost estimators to each track the cost of the project as it develops. But these are professional estimators that are using real costs that they're experiencing throughout the area, the regional areas, historic cost data and compared against the project as it's being developed by the architects. These multiple estimates are then compared we have reconciliation meetings to try and determine whether any discrepancies between the estimators. And also we use the information available by these estimators to look for economies in the construction. Stepping back to the original project budget. When the original project develop a budget was developed we efforted to be as efficient as possible. And we projected construction costs grew the completion of the project to take into account any increases or, you know, variations in construction activity that may affect construction costs again this is all in an effort to come with a maximum value that the clients in this case Jones library would would see for the particular project. Currently, we are at a pretty efficient point there are no known areas to save money. If there's an ability to save dollars that's information that we would be utilizing that we can develop from changes in construction technologies of material availabilities or industry related activities that could affect construction costs and impacts, and we would take that information into account in order to reduce, reduce the budget take advantage of any savings possible. Thanks, thanks George Jim did you want to say anything about the project costs. I think George is hit the nail on the head I think you know as we move into I mentioned going to the next phase like design development. We will be getting a complete set of cost estimates and from George and from an outside estimator, which get resolved. And there may be things that that we will have to look at I mean we have added a number of things in sustainability which are important. I would just need you know it gets to be a balancing act for example it's been talked about well maybe we don't have to have the skylights on the on the roof to bring in more natural light well. Okay well then we're increasing our electricity costs because we're we have to use more more artificial light so we but maybe taking those skylights out is a cost effective thing in order to keep the thing on the project on budget. We have things like that that we would be looking at as the design drawings advance and we look take into account what the effect on the market of coven has been some things are going up, others are going down. So I think it's it's a little early to really be able to project everything but we also have a chance when it gets to bidding of the job. And we send the drawings out for real construction dollars to look at certain alternates that we might put in the budget. Some things that might be postponed for example until the building is actually occupied some purchase of some furniture. So there are things that we would try to come up with when we go to bidding to ensure that the numbers are under control. Sharon, do you want to say a little bit about MBLC Tony asked a very good question about the MBLC tolerance for reduction in square footage of the building Sharon do you want to say anything about that. Based on my experience in in Sunderland, when we built there, the building did end up, you know, shrinking along the way, but, but it was kind of like a natural process once all the engineers get involved and, you know, real things start happening. But everything that happens we work with the MBLC so they are there with us all along, but they don't allow us to eliminate entire programmatic areas so for example in order to save money. We can't get rid of the ESL program we can't get rid of the team space we can't move special collections somewhere so those are the requirements. Thank you. Thank you for all of you that have contributed to that. I'm now going to ask Laura. I'm sorry for not pronouncing your name correctly. You state your name and where you live. Can you hear me. Yes. Actually, her husband John Hoover but we're kind of speak with the same voice on this she had to leave and we've been on, you know, waiting for a little while so hope that's okay if I speak in instead. Yes, so I'm going to keep my comments really short. I moved here three years ago we live 103 Concord way. And we live in District five and, you know, given what we've learned about this projects what we've heard today about the fact that project takes into account sustainability, and that the cost of the repairs we don't move forward with this project. The cost of repairs is about the same, you know, to us it seems like a no brainer that this that we would move forward with this and we hope that our counselors vote for this project. So that's that's it. Thank you very much for your comments john. I'm Laura Drucker. Please enter the room state your name and where you live. Hi, I'm large rocker I live in district two. I am also the chair of the Amherst town energy and climate action committee, although I am speaking today as an individual. I want to echo my gratitude for the library during this time I can't tell you how much I wish I could have spent this cold Saturday morning in the children's room drinking a cup of coffee when my kids played and made a mess there instead of at my own house. And I can't tell you how many Saturdays I thought that since last March. But I've really appreciated the book bundles and everything else that's happened. To try to make the best of the situation. I have a four year old and a eight year old and it breaks my heart a little bit that by the time we get back into the library my eight year old probably will have outgrown the space that's there. I want to as a, you know, 29 for a few more months year old taxpayer and Amherst who hopes to be paying taxes for many more years and Amherst. I want to thank you for the concern about, you know, debt and not putting future generation of taxpayers to have to handle debt but I would also say that debt is old buildings to debt is keeping us with buildings that keep us with old buildings that don't meet the needs of our community that aren't compliant that aren't safe and keeping us straddled with old buildings that rely on fossil fuels. So, I'd like to maybe put Todd on the spot again if that's okay and ask how much fuels. You mentioned the heat pumps coming in to take away natural gas which is wonderful. Do you have any estimates on what how much we pay now for natural gas or maybe that's a question for somebody else, and how much savings operationally that will be on when we, when we make this move. Hi Laura, but thanks for your question I am looking at some projected costs and actual costs. And, you know, the good news and bad news is is that gas is cheap. That I guess is good news. You know, most of our electricity right now in Massachusetts is generated by burning natural gas. So electricity is kind of a next level refined product and to use it again for heat is almost a step backward, unless you use it in a heat pump it's certainly kind of a step backwards if you just use it like in a toaster or electric resistance. But right now the cost. Even though BTU wise, the library uses 60% of its energy in gas. It's all it's only, it's only about 20% of the cost. So the cost per BTU of the gas is much less. So even though the proposed energy use is much less, the cost is going to be on the two proposed buildings, the baseline building is actually a little bit higher. About 10% higher in energy costs, even though the energy use is 40% less. And the proposed building with the ECMs which is almost 50% less energy use, that's about a 6% reduction in the annual cost for energy. So this is where you're effectively paying money to reduce the emissions. But who knows what's going to happen. Natural gas in my career, looking at energy costs at a ridiculously low level and I think it's going to go up again, particularly if we don't have pipelines built in and things like that so it's you know we're taking a snapshot. And I hope I've not wandered off from your question too much. No, but I have to say we may have you come back to the finance committee at some point. Thank you for that. Thanks. And Laura, thanks for you and your family joining us today. Jeff Lee. And can I say one thing before Jeff talks. So I just want to so Todd referenced a 6% reduction and we've been talking about an 8% reduction. And I know there are certain counselors here who are like me are detailed people. So I just want to clarify the difference. So this 8% reduction that we have in the materials is using ever source. The 6% reduction that Todd is referencing is if we get our energy from 100% renewables from somebody other than which is something the board hasn't discussed or decided yet but I just want to throw out there that's what that differential is. Thank you. Jeff Lee, please enter the film state your name and where you live. This is Jeff Lee I live at a 15 Southeast Street in Amherst. And I have a question for the library folks wondering to what extent to what extent to the Massachusetts Board of Library commissioners rules for securing a grant determine the size of the proposed project. Is it possible or be possible in the future to be awarded a grant for a more modest plan, or perhaps separate grants for the most essential parts of the project such as accessibility and energy efficiency. I think I can answer that question. mblc doesn't dictate size with what drives size is the program. The mblc process is really incredibly rigorous one. So the proposal was reviewed by a peer review panel to determine whether or not what we were proposing in the way of size was appropriate to what we were proposing in the way of program. The mblc review panels are charged to determine. What the proposal is an efficient use of the building a sustainable use of the building in the sense that it will meet the needs of the community over a 25 or 30 year period. If the town would have turned on the mblc grant. It would be likely another decade before the library might apply for mblc grants. mblc is interested, not in funding pieces of libraries. They're interested in funding libraries and helping library to be constructed. To serve the needs of their town out into the future. So there was no mblc you have to meet a space you have to hit so many square feet. That's not mblc is concerned their concern is whether the program can be adequately housed in the space that is proposed. Thank you. Thank you Jeff. We're going to try calling seven nine three four again. Please enter the room unmute state your name and where you live. So it's star six to unmute or you should be able to unmute again by pressing star six you'll just want to turn down the volume on your speaker, where you're watching the meeting first so we don't have that echo. Please try it again. I'm sorry for the frustration you must be feeling and I really want to encourage you, as I want to encourage everybody else that if you have comments you'd like to send to us in emails or questions. Because they will be coming up before the finance committee, and then come back to the town council. Please do so by sending those to town council at Amherst MA dot gov. All right one more time to unmute. So again you can dial star six on your telephone to unmute yourself. Hello, can you hear me. Well, I don't know if I'm, I don't know if I'm the person that you wanted to hear from because I think there were two of us who couldn't get on. Look ma I've made it I'm on stage. My name is Martha Spiegelman and I reside at 185 Middle Street District five. I'm really making a statement. Maybe a couple of questions scattered through. I oppose the funding of the Jones library building project. I cannot support a project that has at its heart. I think it is the destruction of a functional part of the building. These sections of the building are not old nor moldy nor crumbling nor contaminated nor bug infested. I think it is a serious waste to destroy a large part of the durable operating building to put up a replacement. We should not be destroyers. I support funding for many library services such as increasing staff and increasing pay and benefits. We rely on these fine people to make the libraries run. I support interior renovation and reconfiguration of the Jones. I support money to improve the two branch libraries. I also would like to see a mobile library inaugurated in Amherst. I favor turning over some funds to the public school libraries to enhance their collections and perhaps their spaces. These are good libraries. There are two major, really major, costly crisis conditions that Amherst, like all towns and cities, everywhere faces now. One, the coronavirus crisis. And two, the climate chaos. And I really congratulate Lydia Vernon Jones for speaking so well about the climate emergencies. These are actual emergencies that need solutions and funding well into the future. There's going to have to be changes in ventilation systems in many buildings. And another thought that I think I'd like to raise, I'd like to know something about the solar panel farm at the old landfill. Where does that stand? And I think that we should fit many existing town buildings with solar, prime among them, by the way, the police station. It's got a great big roof for solar panels. And how about solar panels over parking spaces in the town parking lots, like many of the UMass lots? In order for voters, me, a taxpayer, to make informed decisions on ballot questions, we need to have much more information than we get now. We need to see a comprehensive budget projection, let's say a three to four year projection, so that we know what the anticipated costs and the revenues to pay them are likely to be. We pay the bills, we have to know what we're in for. We have to know what the costs of operations might be. So many costs. I fear that the town will fall short on its obligations. And with these uncertainties, I'm not going to vote for overrides for high priced capital projects. I have just one further matter I'd like to raise. The override question might be for a 90 million vote for a four project package, the Jones Library Grammar School Public Works Fire Station. Will the package be broken down into four separate votes? If it is just one vote for 90 million, a voter voting yes to fund the project she supports. Would be forced to vote for projects she doesn't support. I think that a single override ballot question would be unfair and anti-democratic and maybe legally challenge it, challengeable. So two questions to the council. Will you ensure a fair democratic override ballot question? Second question. Will you start to develop a three or four year budget projection for public distribution? And I thank you. Let me try to adjust the first but I always welcome others. We have made no decision about whether or not we are taking this or any other project out or a debt exclusion override. And I have not ever heard of us talking about putting them all together into one package and taking them out. We don't know the actual of the school fire station or the DPW. We have no basis for which to take that out for a debt exclusion override. We only have estimates and caps that we are now using to estimate our budgets with regard to a three to four year budget. And I think that the capital planning committee is of which there are several people here, both from the library and from the town council on that committee is looking at, in fact, a five year plan for our capital expenditures. Everything from computers to police cars to roof repairs. And yes, by the way, we are planning to put a new roof on the police station and we're looking for a way to put solar on that police station roof as well. So, and when it comes to budgets, the town manager does the annual operating budget with an eye always towards the future of what is it that we are making as an assumptions and so the model that was put together by Sean Manjano the finance director actually has in it both assumptions about operating and assumptions about capital. There's a whole lot more to answering that question. I'm more than glad to have someone else add to my answer. If they'd like to take it on. If I could add one thing. There are two competing interests as a taxpayer, what you want is detail about every project before you have to think about it or vote on it, or even recommend it to your counselors. The second piece is you don't want to spend an enormous amount of money on a project before anybody has had a chance to vote on it and think about it. And so consequently what you see are people who get very upset at having spent a huge amount of money on consultants on a project, which we then say, this is makes no sense. Let's get rid of it. And versus people who say, we don't know enough about this how can we make a decision. It's a competitive problem. And there's no simple solution to it. I also want to add and recognize that in addition to the five people who are here today from the joint capital planning committee, three of them are counselors Mandy Johanna key. Andy Steinberg and Kathy Shane, as well as Alex Lefebvre and Tammy. And in addition to that, Kathy Shane and Steve Schreiber are on the elementary school building committee Kathy is the chair of that and Steve is the vice chair of that. And I have actually chaired the joint, the advisory committee for the fire station in DPW. So you actually have a town council who is extremely steeped in watching these capital projects and trying to do our very best to figure out how to make it work for So. And the next person coming in is Rudy Perkins and Rudy is one of the founders or fathers if you will of the net zero energy bylaw. So I always enjoy his questions really would you like to enter the room. Sure. Thank you. Rudy Perkins 42 Cherry Lane in North Amherst. That is one of my fears protecting the, the net zero bylaw is one of my hesitations about this project actually, because I think as this project has come in we see that we're going to have to constrain the budgets pretty sharply on the fire station. We're going to have to extend the DPW project and possibly on the school, particularly to try to get it through an override. And I think the temptation is going to come down the line if the budgets are tight on those projects that require renewable energy under our bylaw to either repeal or got the bylaw. We have choices to make not just about this project but this project is going to have a debt ripple effect on the others which gives me pause about what a project that I like many features of. So that's one overriding comment and then a more detailed question. I want to make sure we're actually going to get what we're being told we're going to get in terms of energy performance from this project. The EUI 29 target that's been projected is a very rigorous target. And when I went back I was also on the Fort River School Building Committee, I went back and looked at the analysis that the architects did there to get that project conceptual project to EUI 30 which is actually not quite as rigorous. And they as they mentioned that that was going to need additional energy features such as, and they expressly called out triple glazing are 35 walls are 60 roof are 15 under slab. And just for the energy envelope for that model, they figured that was going to be about $2.35 million in additional costs. So, we already have seen that the ECM for the triple glazing has been not included in the construction cost of this and the board estimates that somewhere around 1.3 7 million, I believe. And so that takes up to wall insulation wall insulation and attic insulation ECS ECM that were not included in the construction costs for this library. And so that that takes up around $1.7 million and expenditures that I think might have been necessary to get to the kind of low EUI performance in the building that we need. I think we need to scrutinize the energy performance very carefully. And the construction costs that are being modeled here and compare them, barely for example put CPA and historic tax credit dollars into the repair model and see what that looks like. If we start getting to five or $6 million difference, and the building isn't going to perform the way we expect. We maybe will regret that we didn't put the money into other climate mitigating projects, you know, I don't want to, you know, to just an example $5 million could buy well more than the solar panels that the Fort River School would have needed for an 85,000 square foot building to power all of its energy needs. So let's make sure let's go through this carefully, make sure that we compare it against other priorities that might have better climate mitigating impacts faster, and use the money more directly and make sure we're getting the, we actually are going to get the EUI performance for this building that we need and then I would say and put more solar panels on the roof too. So, thanks so much. Oh, if could someone tell me if the, what the R values are for the current plan for the roof walls and under slab because I could find those anywhere, and could the outline specifications and the new 2020 plans or whatever the most recent building plans, could those be posted on the library's website maybe they're there but I couldn't find either those things and it's very hard to tell what's going on with some of the details of the project when you can't see the outline specs and the latest plans. Thanks. Alex, do you want to address that for someone else. I think that Todd and Jim are probably better posed to speak to those questions than me. I'll let Todd jump into but just to say that you know we, this is the schematic design I think the sustainability committee and we've tried to do everything we could at this early phase to identify these issues and what was required to get to the sustainability model that we've established and the EUI. We've used the committee agreed to do an energy model on a schematic design which is not the usual and it's something that is recommended but most people don't do it. So that's where we are in terms of that the installation values all the things that have gone into those numbers are the ones that gave us that result of the additional items triple glazing is something we will be looking at. It's very expensive. It appears not to be necessary to achieve our goals at this early stage. As we move into the design development phase we're going to be doing a new energy model, cranking in all the existing facts, and, and we'll come up with a new result. So I think we just need to be cognizant of the issues, the fact that we are spending more money to achieve this goal, we have something we have to manage as we go into advanced phases of the project. Thank you. Terry Johnson. Sorry, Todd was there anything else you wanted to add to that. Yeah, I just wanted to say to Rudy that I looked real quick see if I could find those our values I don't have it I don't want to shoot from the hip on them and we'd probably be the few on the call who would actually appreciate having those exact numbers but they're they're certainly they're somewhere, and we've reviewed the energy model. And I just wanted to make the note that, you know, one of my experiences is with one of the other sustainability committee members and that is actually getting the net zero building at Hampton College to qualify and exceed net zero over a two year period period and much more so than the design is in the operation it's not easy. And, you know, and that's a challenge not to be underestimated but to me that's where the rubber really met the road and the actual day to day operation of that building and working with the people who use it and staff it was the most challenging part of getting that building to qualify and exceed net zero. Thank you for making that point. The end it's always the people and how they use it, or misuse it. Terry Johnson, please enter the room and state your name. Hi, thank you. My name is Terry Johnson. I live on T Berry Lane, and I taught at Mark spent elementary school. I thank the council for hosting these forums, particularly on Saturday, and I want to shout out to the library staff who always provide seamless patron service. I've attended many meetings of the library in the last four years, and I've learned that the library's operating budget is very fragile. The town which pays for about 74% of the Jones yearly budget will not increase its allocation. So the Jones must provide the rest through its endowment state aid and fundraising. Sadly, the night library has never had enough money to properly maintain its current facility. Given the 30 year old carpets have been replaced in a timely manner to say nothing of the long, long re list of other neglected maintenance. And sadly, the Jones is short staffed for full time retiree positions have not been filled in the last two years. This means that more part timers who only receive sick leave are being employed, but are never allowed to work over 20 hours a week, because it would trigger expensive health insurance and longevity benefits, which the library must pay. Sharon Shari has stated last May 29 that she's only able to staff the library now because the Jones and the branches are not open their usual weekly hours. So I have two questions and one was partly answered by Bob Pam. If we examine the worst case financial scenario for the library. That is, if the budget, which is challenged now, and the friends fail to raise $6 million towards the demolition expansion, and the endowment is used for a loan and health insurance goes up, etc, etc. So what is the trustee's plan to maintain and staff a larger facility and keep the branches open. It's a little scary to hear that using the endowment is not an unreasonable bet, but a bet nonetheless. The second question regards Carl Elefante the famous sustainability expert who has said the greenest building is the one that is already built. The trustees have decided to destroy 40% of the building for this new project. So I would like to know what are the trustees plans for long term maintenance of the proposed new facility. In 25 years, the trustees don't have to ditch expensive construction again. Thank you. Austin, where do you want to go with the issue. So I want to start by talking about the 1993 edition. The 1993 edition was estimated, I believe, to be an addition that would last for about 20 or 25 years. So we're about about where we should be in terms of looking at that addition. That's number one number two, the 1993 edition was probably never functional from the moment it opened. You've heard from the staff again Terry Johnson is wonderful citizen and a wonderful partner in our thinking about the library. He heard from the staff. The 1993 edition is not functional. It doesn't work. It creates real challenges for the staff. It's not accessible. It doesn't work. So, one can think about the 1993 edition as there it is, and it's, it's working. It isn't working. Sharon talk about the staffing. The library trustees have been very careful Bob Pam is a meticulous treasure in looking at our finances and looking at the staffing plans. Sharon you want to talk a little bit about the staffing plans for the library. Sure. Yeah, so I definitely have some comments. So, first, just overall about the library's budget though, the library's budget is very stable. Now, and going into the into the future. The government beautifully pays for our operations at a 4% draw that's what we're looking at at pulling for FY 22, and the town appropriation, along with our state aid award pays for salaries. And that's not under any jeopardy at all now or in the future, and fundraising pays for books and programs. So thankfully the friends efforts have been highly successful. So, so overall the library's budget is doing fine there there's no risk in losing staff for any of the branches or including the main branch. Regarding staffing in general what we do every time a staff member retires or leaves, we as a group. We step back and say to ourselves okay, what is it that we want to do with our, with our resources, money, how do we want to staff the buildings so that we can provide the best library services. And, and so every time somebody retires, it's, it's a different environment. So right now we're in a COVID environment, and, and we are circulating just as heavily now, as we were back in last January, the, the, so staffing and out of all of the, out of comments and emails and notes that we get from patrons, no one is saying that any of the libraries are suffering staffing wise so. So, and that that's, you know, based on patron comments. I do want to correct something that the speaker said about using more part timers in place of full timers. The fact show that since FY 15, the number of full timers have actually increased from 17 back then to now we're up to 21. And, and the fact show that the number of part timers has decreased from 31 back in FY 15. We're down to 26 now. And so again as, as, as part timers retire we're able to consolidate and hire full timers instead so I just, I just want to assure you and then fast forward to an expanded building. I do want to say that this says, you know, it's hard to just say, Oh, trust me, it'll be fine. But when you have a well designed building. The staffing and services really fall into place. So I have, I have advertised you can see on our website the staffing plan you can see the locations of the full timers the locations of the part timers. And I think you will see because we will have wide open sight lines, you will see that there is enough staff. I also want to say I'm going to use Sunderland as an example, and I know you're going to say Sunderland is not comparable to Amherst, but it's all relative. So we went from a 3000 square foot building, we tripled in size we went to a 9000 square foot building. We did not increase our staff. And to this day the Sunderland library has not increased the number of staff it needs. And why is that how can that happen, because it's a really well designed building. And I would argue with anybody to say that find gold Alexander architects has done an exceptional job of listening to the staff concerns, and this newly designed building is going to work for our needs staffing needs it will also work for the public's needs. Thank you. If I remember Sharon, you mentioned before that there was one new staff person and that's an additional maintenance person. And that's what I'm envisioning and so right now one of our, one of our custodians is part time, and my goal would be to turn him into a full time person. Thank you. Peter Barrett, please enter her hand up. Alex Lefebvre has her hand up. Thank you for calling my attention to Alex. I want to take one quick comment to about the operating budget, so can't speak for all the trustees but front of my mind is about who donates to the library, and how donations happen. And as we've talked about a capital campaign is likely to bring in more people who are going to continue to donate to us. And the more the more users you have in a building, the more excited people are about a building, the more businesses they can get from the building, the more likely people are to continue to donate to our annual fund. So for us, you know, in addition to meeting the community needs the reality is the better, brighter, more user friendly it is, the stronger our operating budget is going to be in the future, the more disrepair and sad and unwelcoming it is the smaller and smaller our budget it's going to be and I love the former director of the Amherst Survival Center said it beautifully I don't know her, but sometimes there's a leap of faith that you have to understand that spending that money up front, and what's going to come from it, you're, you're going to wind up actually being in a better place both in terms of long term maintenance needs. In terms of your operating budget because of the funding that's going to come in and so for me. I see nothing but but positive outcomes around our budget and that really excites me because I would love to expand hours and programming and I don't see that path. If we just keep narrowing and narrowing who we serve, but I do see that path when we broaden it up. And I just did one thing about, I'm sorry, just about about the demolition of the addition and I know this is something that often is difficult but as an architect who's spent most of his career, you know, refurbishing reusing and adding on to existing buildings. I just want to address that just for a second. You know, and I certainly know Carl Alafonte is an old friend and we get along well, and he's absolutely right, but there is a difference between the way a building was built and its quality and whether it can stand the test of time. And I think when we look at the addition and compared to the 1928 building you can see a whole difference right there between the original building the historic building and the addition. When we look at the aspirations of the library and the town to to get additional square footage to do these programs the way they should be. We did an analysis for the trustees which said if you kept the footprint the way it is, you'd have to add probably two three stories to the entire building to accommodate the program so we don't don't approach this demolition lightly I don't want everybody to think that we're just coming in willy nilly to do this because it's a serious discussion. And I think though the numbers have proven that with the efficiency we will maintain will have a larger library, and some of the base costs are not going to increase. Thank you for that. Peter Barrack, would you please enter the room state your name and where you live. My name is Peter Barrack. I live at 87 Woodlott Road. I've lived in Amherst since 1997. I'm speaking particularly now to members of town council. The problem, as I see it that you guys are facing is the problem of uncertainty. But a budget for the library project. You don't and can't yet have budgets for the other capital projects. And the question is how do you deal with planning under conditions of uncertainty. One element that is not uncertain is the availability of state support for the library project. I remember hearing Paul Backelman and others at the time of the town council election, talk about how the phase that the timing of capital projects would partially be driven by the availability of state support. And I'm urging you to seize the certainty of the support available for what sounds like an excellent project. You have to move sequentially because the information isn't yet available to enable you to move in any way other than a sequential one. And I hope you will take advantage of the opportunity to build a new expanded Jones library and then move forward both wisely and frugally with the other capital projects that the town needs. Thank you for your comment, Peter, and for recognizing the position we're in. Heather, please enter the room and state your name. Hi, my name is Heather Sheldon I live in over on Auburn Wood Road in Amherst. I am also the co-president because I should stop can you guys hear me. Yes, me. Awesome. I'm also the co-president of the special education parent advisory council for the Amherst Pellum regional school district. I wanted to point out that our current library configuration a person who uses a wheelchair cannot enter the front door of our library. And in the last 30 years, you know, since even the newer part of our library was built, we've had decades more experience with including people with all abilities into our public spaces. And I wanted to ask the architect, how thoughts about universal design will be applied to the new project, and how the limitations of the existing building really keep us from making the building, even if we do. And I think that through modifications to what is there, put additive things on to meet the letter of the law of the code, as written. The limitations of really making the current spaces a welcoming environment for everyone, because right now it is not an even and I don't believe it can be by adding on as an afterthought. Ways to, you know, everything from doorknobs to changes in elevation to elevators that are located in centrally located places that we really center the usability for for everyone that's going to walk in the door. Thank you. Kim. Yes, I think that's it. That's a good question that's on everybody's mind these days and it certainly applies to the library. And our goal is to make it as universally accessible as possible. To that end we are, you know, modifying the landscaping for example in the front which turns out to be something that historically had a curved drive in the front. We now can have a very simple accessible entrance at the front of the building from Amity Street will have elevator access to all the different floors the spacing of the, the toilet rooms and the fixtures the hardware all of that will be according to, you know, the the latest code for accessibility. And in some cases, you know, we even go beyond a strictly what's in the code just because as we're laying out the new addition we can accommodate things that you just really can't accommodate in in an existing building. I think that's one of the differences between the pricing for the renovation scheme and the new scheme is that would be extremely costly to bring everything in the existing building up to those standards. So I think the goal is to provide accessibility everywhere to really accommodate all all measure and it applies to seniors as well as people who are in wheelchairs as well as people who can't see all of these things need to be brought into this picture and then so far we've done that and we'll continue to take those to the highest standards. I had to say, Heather's question is a very important one which has really driven the design of the building will continue universal design means that the issue of access is at the center it's not an add on. It's not like we're going to build and then think oh my God we need a ramp. So what you what you've raised is really central to what it is that we're trying to do a universal design is a principle which says that what you do to make the building accessible to people in wheelchairs, for example, or to blind people benefits everyone. And that's really what we're starting with in this library design. Thank you. Barry O'Connell, please enter the room state your name and where you live. My name is Barry O'Connell and I live in North Amherst, and I've been in Amherst longer than almost anybody I can see. Because I came in 1972 have three things I want to say one of which is as a survivor of the attempt to build a new school which should have been built. There's something it's important that if you don't have in mind you keep in mind, you will be nickel and dime to death by those who oppose on the whole. They will make up reasons they will pick up things they will make the coherent hard work on project fall apart before you if they can. It's important. I hope that the council can be utterly unanimous about the stupidity and I'll use that word absolutely without apology of doing anything to lose the state grant. It must not happen. Now speak from the work I've done over time in this town and others with a variety of populations. It especially disadvantages one particular group and it's done so without any change relentlessly for all the years I've been here. They're called teenagers. You don't usually think about teenagers as discriminated against. I found for teenagers to go in the weather is bad. No particularly good place to go in the weather is good to not use this project to create welcoming various spaces that will draw teenagers into the building is crucial. From the perspective of a long time teacher. I of course I want teenagers to be with books as much as possible. It's not just nostalgia. But a library that doesn't create various spaces for teenagers is no longer a library to have. And the spaces as you all know, in the current library are disgusting actually, hardly welcoming. You're incredibly tactful what you're doing and it's necessary for counselors. But sometimes you may speak to tactfully about current building. The third place I would speak from is I'm now facing being old concept I've never entertained before. I have a disease in my legs it's hard for me to get around my balance would make anybody shriek in panic. It's very, very hard for me and anybody like me that you've been talking about well to get into the current library. One step is terror for me. I need things to hold on to as much as possible. Ignore me, but let me stand for a set of problems. And among other things. One of the things that we can probably predict is that the aging of the population and the number of ages the population will increase, not decrease if we're lucky it will decrease. Because more young people who can find a way to live affordably in this town may move in. Not so now. There are other issues of accessibility that again I, I know you've all been thinking hard about from the start of the project. If you go to South Amherst, there's very rich South Amherst. I hope that they give all their money to the library. But there's also the Amherst of second and third and even first generation immigrants who do not have a lot to live on here are far from the library in a certain sense. That's the programs that need to be designed to the library are ones that might draw them. And they're part of the younger population in town as well. Now again, I'm talking to the people who already know this. But I beg every counselor to strongly support the project and to fight for it. And to be aware that there are people who don't show up at these meetings, who are listening to rumors. We've not survived four years of rumors. Let us not in our town do that if we don't have to. Thank you. Mary, thank you for your comments for joining us. Sam McLeod. Please enter the room. State your name where you live. Can you hear me. Yes, we can. Hello everyone I'm Sam McLeod I live in South Amherst on Southeast Street I recognize a lot of faces here. My comment is not about the Jones library per se it came before the committee I'm on hello to Sharon Kent and Austin and all the counselors. My comments about the general planning process for the full capital project group. I'm going to go to the forum a few years ago where the council asked residents to give ideas in terms of what they value in projects and at that meeting for me seeing the new school design I thought that that to me was the most important of all the I'm going to go to the council staff. And I asked the council's suggestion that they might consider prioritizing and or placing ranks in terms of the different projects now I understand that there's a point of time now where the decision is before the council for the Jones library, I think it would be beneficial for the council to consider the relative importance of those projects. They certainly are not all equal. And who's to say what the council and towns folks. Think is most important, but I think it's a good idea. I think it would be beneficial for the council to consider the relative importance of those projects. They certainly are not all equal. I think it's most important, but I think it's a discussion to have because. As somebody who takes care of, uh, partners to take care of my family, I have to plan for what's most important and ensuring against it. And a concern I have going forward, not speaking regarding the Jones library is. What would happen if we didn't prioritize and went to an override and the most important project. That would be the one that would not be viable. So my, for me, that would be the school based on my own. Criteria, but the council will have their own criteria. So my request. Is. That the council consider. Going forward. Planning. To ensure using the insurance metaphor against catastrophe, meaning their greatest priority, whatever it might be. Not pass the override. And suddenly that would be the one that would not be viable. That would be the one that would not be viable. And that would be the one that would not be viable. That would be whatever it might be. Not passing down the road. I know you're considering all this. I've heard Lin's comments. And the joint capital planning committee. I'm just offering that as a refresher that there might be value in the future for reaching out to identify. From community members and within yourselves, which of these would be the most important. I thank you all for your time. I thank you for the outreach and for all the hard work that you've done. And I appreciate your consideration. Thank you. And thanks for your work on the CPA committee. Alice Morse. Hi, can you hear me? Yes, we can. I'm Alice Morse. I live in South Amherst district five. I have a quick question and then a comment. One of the previous callers expressed. The question is, are there any... Opposition against destroying functional spaces in the current library. And I guess my question is, are there any? I guess you can take that as rhetorical, but I came here in 1995. called, Expecting an Amazing College, heard a lot about Amherst College and this town from my husband, and when I visited the library for this first time, I was pretty shocked and disappointed. On many levels, I found the building lacking and nothing has really changed in a quarter of a century since. This is a five-college consortium town and we ought to have a five-star library that serves all Amherst residents and not just a few. I'm very fortunate. I have a computer at home and a walking encyclopedia for a husband and many, many books here. But there are not people that are so lucky and they need a library, they need computers, or students that don't have the advantages I have here in South Amherst, and okay, you've got the general idea. I've been in the interior design field for 35 years and have collaborated with architects on commercial projects, municipal projects, private homes. I was on the Crocker Farm building committee that brought us the, on their last renovation that brought us the preschool wing and the library, and I've worked on some national historic register properties, including one at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue. So I know a little bit about the challenges that a public project like this presents in terms of dealing with the historic building and with existing problems and where you're not starting from scratch, funding issues, sustainability issues, it's really complicated. And what I would like to say to all the people who are inclined to vote no or have our critics of this project is to bring their attention to what Alex said and to trust that it's going to be fantastic. Maybe not quite as fantastic as they hope, but it's certainly going to address a lot of issues. As a member of the Crocker Farm building committee, I remember getting second guessed about why did you guys decide this? And why didn't you guys decide that? And questions are a good thing, but it's the people in the weeds that are really doing the work that know the extent of the problems and the regulations that they have to deal with, the formulas that are at play, especially when state money is involved. So I would encourage us all to sort of trust the people who've done the most work because they have the most information. I just wanted to say one more thing about the exterior design because I've heard there was criticism of it. I think it's brilliant. One of my pet peeves is with buildings that are designed to just scream look at me. There are plenty of places on the UMass campus where architects seem to have designed their project in a bubble with total disregard to the adjacent buildings or landscape. There's actually a perfect example down the street from the library where the Bank of America building kind of holds court and demands our attention. The architect of the library edition did not repeat this mistake. The addition design cleverly mimics the gambrel roof style of the main building and its neighbor, the historical society. But at the same time modernizes the look with a new roofing, more modern roofing material. The dormers are updated as well, but they're still a nod to the older ones in front of the original building. I really can't imagine a design that is more successful in bridging the past with the present, the buildings that are around it while looking to the future. So I think it's just incredibly awesome. And I ran across this and might sound familiar to you all. We've been down this road before. The Crocker Farm project was described as, quote, a previously well constructed but worn out and crowded building requiring structural structural repairs, the employment of sustainable design strategies, and the addition of new spaces, including classrooms and a library. Sounds kind of familiar. I'm not sure everything the committee did then was perfect, but at the end of the day and for the last 15 years, the Crocker Farm students have enjoyed the use of a library where one had not existed before. So I say to the town council, I say to everybody who is listening, we've been down this road before too, and that is don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good. I think you'll find that quote in the French literature section under Voltaire. But anyway, please, let's get this done. That's all I have to say. Alice, thank you for your comments. Caller 7934, I think it's Martha Spiegelman. Can you enter the room? And I guess you must have an additional question. Hello, Erwin Spiegelman from Amherst. One question. Where are the plans for the project we're talking about all this time, which can be understood by Amherst voters? I could not find plans at the website of the library that were fully explaining exactly what the outlines look like. I could not, I found that the plans had unreadable labels. Where can I find the plans of this library expansion which anybody can understand because the ones that are online are unreadable? Thank you. Thank you. We'll make sure the library directors in touch with you. Thank you for your comments, Erwin. David Lithgow. Hi, good afternoon. I have, I do have a question today. I would like to preface that question by pointing out. Well, first of all, I live in North Amherst in the Cushman area. And I've been here for 44 years. I first came to Amherst, however, in 1955. It was a very sleepy town in 1955 that aphorism referencing Amherst as the town where only the ages silent would have made no sense then because it was a very silent town. The I think the cows made more noise than the residents. And in 1955, when I first visited this town, I could not have imagined the town today. And it strikes me that those who built this library in 1928 must have been extraordinary visionaries. I just can't imagine how they could have envisioned their library serving the town of today. So now to my question, I'm extraordinarily impressed by the professionalism and the of the volunteers that have been involved in this long process of planning this project. And I'm curious, I'm curious to know if the, and I'm not sure who to direct this to, perhaps the architects, when you were developing the concept for this library, it was, did you have a vision of the town of Amherst in, you know, in 40 years? You know, at the age of 80, my perspective on everything is very different than it was decades ago. I'm very curious, I have no idea what the town of Amherst will look like in 40 years. I know what it looked like 50 years ago. I can't imagine what it's going to look like in 40 years. But the, it seems to me that this project, you know, incorporates, you know, a vision that the consistent with the, you know, the visionaries that built this library in the first place. And I'm curious to know if there was that sort of a vision of the town in the future, that went into the calculus when, when you developed the plan for this library. And I don't know who can answer that. Am I, am I on now? I've lost my connection. Oh, great. Okay, she's, I'm sorry about that. I don't know what happened. Everything just dropped. The, that's a great question. I think one of the things, and hopefully we will live up to this, that comes from working with existing buildings and a lot of historic buildings over time, is that we don't have exactly a preconception, but I think we have a way of looking at a building and how it can be added on to, which is appropriate to the town and the input that we've received. And I think we look at what we originally started with, you know, there's a program, it's so big, it's so many square feet and things. But as we work through this over the past months, and actually, I guess it's going to be years, the input from everyone is so important from the historic folks to the just regular users of the library. So I hope we have melded exactly what you said, a building which will last in time, which has an internal flexibility, but which has an appropriateness to the spirit of the original building. I often think of the original, of course, as a great house. And then there were additions that made it bigger and it became more like a big house and a big barn. And so we like to continue that idea that that house is still the important feature and that these are new additions of the library, which are not like barns, but they provide the necessary program. Thank you, Jim. Carol Gray, please enter the room, state your name. Yes, hello, Carol Gray from 15 Southeast Street. So I'd like to make a comment about some of the concerns raised about space. So when I was a library trustee for three years, one of the things I was urging that did not happen was to hire a consultant to look at the use of space because the existing space of the library is really poorly used. The third floor is used almost not at all. The trustee meeting room is used just for trustees, but could be have a whole different purpose. There are two small offices that were just locked with storage. There was a very large room that was just storing various things. But basically the entire floor was completely unused. There's also down in the basement, the craft room is not adequately used. If you were in town meeting some years ago, I showed slides of rows of empty bookshelves. The existing space is so poorly used that I would recommend that you hire a space consultant to see how things could be reconfigured because yes, we should have a teen room by all means, but there's space for a teen room and in terms of accessibility. So you can improve accessibility without tearing down 40 percent of the library at a cost of 60 to 20 million dollars to our town. For example, the Community Preservation Act allows for accessibility upgrades to historic buildings. So you can certainly work on making that building more accessible. And I think that would be a good thing to do. I think that we should also look at what is the relationship between this project and other projects that have overwhelming support in the town. I've heard that the school school renovate school building or renovations can't happen until much later. But if you took the 60 to 20 million that you want to sink into tearing down 40 percent of a library and you instead said, let's build one of the schools now and let's put 16 to 20 million towards that and bond out the rest. You could build a new Fort River or a new Wildwood tomorrow. You could bond it out and you could use that 20 million. So I it's. I get that some people still want to have the mega school. But I think if you want to get new schools quickly, build one now. Make that the priority. Show the town that that really is the priority. I'm also concerned that if you go ahead and spend 16 to 20 million of town funds on a library that most people don't want, people might not want to support an override. They might say, wait a second, the town is squandering money, millions to build a library when we have a library that's worked for generations. And, you know, as I mentioned in my comments last last week when I was a library trustee and I was on the Long Range Planning Committee, we did extensive polling, extensive listening sessions and no one said, not a single person said, we need to run it. We need to tear down the Jones Library and build a new. Nobody said that. So I don't think there's public demand for this at all. I understand that certain people are calling in. But what I'd like to know is why hasn't there been an extensive survey done by to find out if this project is even wanted? And also another caller mentioned we have four capital projects, the fire station, the DPW, the schools and this. Why doesn't the council do an extensive townwide poll to find out how do how does the community prioritize these four capital projects? I think that should happen before you even consider a vote on this project. And if you do such a poll, I think you should include the option for people to say, I do not support this project, because I think you may find that at least have maybe maybe even a supermajority do not support tearing down the library that many of us love and think has has served our town actually very well. Of course, anything could be improved. You know, we're all in homes that if we tore down 40 percent and rebuilt, we could make a nicer home. But we don't tear down our existing homes because we have other budgetary priorities. And I think we should ask the community what their priorities are. And if you do this 60 million take from the town's reserves, then the override for the schools will have to be higher. And the property taxes are already so high that we were pricing out of town a lot of middle class people. And it's just we don't want to be a town that only wealthy people can afford to live in. And I fear that when we start spending money for four capital projects, that's where we're headed. So I think that this just because you get a grant doesn't mean that you should spend 20 million of your own funds. It's like if an item is on sale for 40 percent, if you don't need the item, you still don't buy it. Despite the sale, you need to find out from the community what its priorities are. And I don't think there's been any extensive survey to do that. And I think it's foolhardy to do to even contemplate so many capital projects, start building a school now, use the 16 to 20 million and bond out the rest and get one of those schools built now, because that's where the town's priorities are. That's where there's overwhelming support in the town. Thank you. Rob Robertson, please enter the room, stage your name and where you live. Good afternoon. My name is Rob Robertson. I live on Cosby Avenue. I've been in Amherst for 20 years. Hearing the prior speaker, I wonder. How do we not understand that we're on the hook for 16 million dollars for repairs or 16 million dollars for an expansion and renovation? How does this not compute? There are many good reasons to proceed with the renovation and expansion. And so far as I can tell, no reasonable reasons to oppose it. I think an earlier speaker put it well when he said it's a no brainer. I encourage our counselors to support the renovation and expansion of our library. Thank you. Thank you for your comment, Rob. Martha Spiegelman, please enter the room, stage your name and where you live. She needs to unmute. Martha, please unmute. Think you're unmuted now. Martha, can you speak and so we can hear you? I think this is the caller who was using an older version of Zoom who called in and spoke with us. Right. She did. All right, we're probably going to need to go on to the next speaker. Judith, Ludi. Lynn, may I interrupt for a second? Sure, I just want to confirm whether we've moved on from just questions to those that can have just comments because we haven't noticed. Yeah, I didn't state that. But yes, we are certainly at that point where comments are more than welcome to make them as well. Some have been integrating them. Some have had questions as well. So thank you, Judith Ludi. Judith, you need to unmute. State your name and where you live. Hi. Can you hear me now? Yes, we can. OK, hi. Judith Ludi, what? I'm sorry. Thirty six on the road and Amherst and I wanted to, first of all, again, thank you for the all the time and effort that's gone into this. And those of us who've given up our Saturday afternoon for this, I think it's been a worthwhile endeavor. And I would, first of all, like to agree with, I believe it was Mr. Anderson who said that this should not be a matter of of contention and disagreement. I think, however, there are some rooms, I hope, for serious consideration of issues that are a great problem. I think one of the things that that I noticed when I was going through for the second or third time, the all the the preliminaries in the financial projections for the cost was when Sean Mangano's last statement was, which was, please understand that the financing options are estimates and subject to change. I think that we the scary thing is that we'd be starting with a project that I I don't think I agree with the people who have said that this would not be the number one priority of the four. If we were if we were looking at the way to to put our tax dollars to work. I think that the school, the fire, the safety of the fire department in its location are extremely important and would be important for people coming in to buy homes and Amherst, our tax taxes are high. My antique home with one and a half baths is now crossed over the ten thousand dollar tax level so that I can't deduct the excess amount and that's that's a pretty hefty price. But I think that there are priorities that we would we would afford and should go for. But I'm concerned about the schools being put to the test of a tax override and by committing because of the priority of the of the grant to this project now with the money that we would put in. And by the way, I'm very much in favor of improving and upgrading the library in all important ways, including sustainability and access and everything else. But I'm wondering if there would be a way for the project to as as Library Director Sherry discussed the the Sunderland Library as perhaps shrinking a little if there's a way that some of the what seems to be excessive space in this expansion could be perhaps narrowed somewhat number of how many meeting rooms are there. I'm not sure there seem to be quite a few cafe in the library. I thought we were going to support surrounding businesses like Amherst coffee. I I think that things like that could be looked at very hard. But if there is a way that we could assure taxpayers that within the confines of what we can do without a tax override, we can build a school. We can improve our fire safety and we can support the public works who are all supported through taxes. The library is in a unique position. Our schools don't have a board of trustees or an endowment to to come to their support. The library is on a beautiful job of projecting this. They have marvelous fundraising capabilities. And probably in our town, there are a lot of people who would like to make a donation towards the improvement and the upgrading of the library. We don't have that kind of route when we're building schools and public works and fire departments. But those are central to what we are paying our taxes for and what we live in this town for. So if there's a way that we could that the council could prioritize the school expenditure in such a way that we don't have to put that to the tax rebate or the tax override proposition and the other other things that we have to pay for limit the amount that we give to the library to a dollar amount that we can whatever it's a 16 million or whatever and let that be all that we can give it. It probably would be possible with whatever to be done to the library to raise the money for it to be done separately. But just the unevenness of these these three against one projects is concerning. Thank you. Thank you for your comments, Judith. John Donahue. Hi, it's really Elaine. Oh, hi. Hi, Elaine. Elaine Donahue and I live in Northamers precinct three. Just a few comments. I know everything has been said, so it's really hard to know what is left. I thought the presentation last week was excellent. It really got me even more excited about the project. The restoration of some of the original aspects of the building was especially enticing, especially after I had a tour last year of the entire building at once. And I got to see what we were missing in the building. And I found myself thinking about how disappointing it would be if we ended up just going with the repairs because I think there's a lot of excitement in something new and something that would function so well. A speaker a little while ago mentioned using the building differently, such as the rooms on the third floor, which are pretty small. I'm not sure you could do a whole lot up there with any except for the trustee meeting room. And as for the basement arts and crafts room, I really think that's a negative expression of where we want to put our teens. I've been in that arts and craft room and it's really not for little kids and it's not for teens either. So I can't go for that. Someone mentioned during the presentation last week that those involved in the building renovation, the previous one, you know, we're feeling bad about the fact that here we were doing something again. I was a Jones Library trustee at that time. And at first, when I heard that we were going to be contemplating another renovation, I was shocked and that we were going to do that. But I don't share in that feeling anymore now that I've looked at it and really understood what's what's going on. At that time, it was a five million dollar project and we did what we could, but not everything could be done. The town contributed one million dollars towards the construction at that time. And I believe that's the only money that the town has ever had to put into the Jones Library and its two branch libraries. The town is greatly benefited from these three amazing community buildings at really minimal construction costs to date. And as has been the tradition with the libraries in Amherst, those involved in the present project are doing their utmost to get money from the state and private sources so so as to minimize the impact on the town's assessment. It's always been the way of the libraries in the town not to try to need the town to contribute to try to do it as much on their own. I was going to talk about the YA section because I feel strongly that that needs to be beefed up. I was the librarian at Wildwood School for over 20 years and the kids used to come back from the middle school and say, oh, they really missed the library. There's just no time to get to the middle school library. Their classes are so packed. They only go there for research and, you know, they need a place. It's the middle school library is great during the day, but after school weekends and all that, it just doesn't work. And I think with the present dedicated YA librarian that Jones has, I think it's a fantastic opportunity to do something good for the teens of the town. Having worked at Wildwood in the library that was open to the noise and congestion of the halls and having had kids who attended there with the poorly functioning classroom spaces, I completely acknowledge and endorse the fact that the elementary schools need new buildings. I would have loved to have been there for a new building. So I hope this isn't an either or situation that we're dealing with. But at this time, since the money is available from the state, I think we should not make the mistake that the town made in not going with the school building project. You know, the money just doesn't always come along that often. I think the library is ready to go now. And I believe we should just get started. Thank you. Lane, thank you for your comments. Bruce Coldman, Colder, excuse me. How are you, Bruce? Please enter the room, your name and where you live. Hi, it's Mary Sayer, actually. OK, Mary. Bruce's wife. And I just had a quick sort of financial question. Does the Jones Library non-profit corporation or whatever own the Jones Library building or does the town? The nonprofit owns it. So if the town gives the Jones Library fifteen million dollars, is that an outright gift? Or does the town get a financial stake in the building? You ask a very good question to which I do. None of us at this point have an answer. My question being that we assume that it will always be a library, et cetera, et cetera, but we can't look that far into the future. And I'm just thinking at some point, if the Jones Library got huge and decided to sell that building to do something else, would the town get a stake in that or not? Or or, for example, if the whole way libraries were used and a big space opened up in that library because computers have gotten teeny and, you know, the demographics have gotten small and we don't have as many teenagers, would the town then have a stake in how that building could be used because we partly owned it? As a taxpayer, I feel a little odd. I understand I really benefit from the Jones. But on the other hand, I feel a little odd outright giving that much money in taxpayers. Tell people you were born here. I was born in Amherst. I spent a lot of years paying taxes. I've used the Jones Library. I love it. But so that's that's basically my question. How how do we, you know, make sure that the town actually has a bigger stake in that if we're going to finance it to that extent and it's a nonprofit? Thank you. Thank you. Ken Farber, you have your hand up. I assume you would. Yes, thank you very much. I can't speak authoritatively about this. Perhaps Paul has already started to talk to the town's lawyers about it. But I have looked. This is not the first time this issue has arisen and it was successfully solved in 1993 because the same transaction occurred by a series of documents which clearly protected the town's interests, but without giving an ownership interest in the property. And I think you should feel reassured that the same kind of documents can be drawn for this occasion also. Thank you. And thank you for referring to those previous documents. Are there any other questions or comments from the audience? Not just questions, but comments, statements, anything. I just want to point out that I think at our high point tonight, we had seventy three people in attendance in the audience, and we now are still have thirty two. And I want to thank all of the consultants who have joined us today and the trustees, Austin, would you like to adjourn the trustees? I would, but I wanted to say a special word of thanks to thanks to Athena, who's yes, efficiency and efficiency and skills are remarkable. Thank you, Athena, for making this happen and for keeping me from being outside for three hours on a Saturday. So thanks, Athena, for that. So I'd like to move that the Board of Trustees of the Jones Library adjourn. Is there a second Bob Pam second? All in favor, say aye, aye, opposed, say no. Jones Library Board of Trustees adjourned. Have a have a. We would the council would like to thank all of you for being here, but also Athena for keeping us on track and online. The town council is adjourned. Thank you.