 and we are starting right now with Econoboy's opening statement. Thanks so much for being with us. Econoboy who's going to introduce himself and want to let you know folks just for it to be organized on screen. On the left side of the screen we have Econoboy and Cherry who are taking the position that yes generally speaking there is a war on women and then above me and below me you have Warren and Stardust respectively who are more on the fence more moderate on the question and then on the right side of your screen Rose and counterpoints would say generally no I don't think there is a war on women but kicking it over to counterpoints on the left side of your screen thanks for being with us the floor is all yours you said me or counterpoints there we go because counterpoints I look so similar is what it is I assume but yeah my name is Econoboy I do mostly economics and I do some politics stuff like this every now and then but this this might be a economic and political issue so it should be pretty fun as far as where I stand you know I you know outside of the hyperbolic you know title you know certainly I think there's a systemic inequalities against women and society can fix them with certain policies so that's probably what we should do you got it thank you very much for that Econoboy we're gonna kick it over to Cherry thanks for being with us the floor is all yours hi I'm Cherry I stream and talk about politics and social issues I also wouldn't say like a war on women very dramatic but I think there is like an uphill climb for a lot of women to strive for equality and I think that that path is in many different ways to accommodate women who want to either strive for modernity or tradition and I think it's going to take a deliberate effort maybe not just in our legislation but like in our the way that we socialize women and each other you got it thanks for that opening and Warren glad to have you as I mentioned folks on the middle column you could say of the screen both Warren and stardust would say generally there are more moderate on this go ahead Warren thanks for being with us thanks for the intro James you know I appreciate the invite I came here not to not to watch not to speak but rather I came here to sit my white ass down and listen and learn from other people and get their perspectives as to whether there is a war on women so I appreciate the chance to be here and contribute where I can thank you Warren and with that stardust thanks for being back with us again YouTube's favorite daughter the floor is all yours hi I'm stardust is there a war on woman I myself would probably not use the language that there's a war on woman but there is a long history in most places of socially and legally restricting women's rights and freedoms and while things have gotten massively better through the decades for women there's still areas where women lack the agency and freedom that men have as far as the idea of whether women should work or not it's really been the case in history that women didn't work the only people who had this privilege were wealthy women and also I don't deny that men face unique problems within our society as well however the problems that men face such as stifling emotions higher suicide rates failure to be believed as sexual assault victims are not privileges that benefit women in any way so so basically what I would say that men suffering from these issues does not lead or does not benefit women in any way and while I may not use the language of war on women there are a lot of areas that we can improve upon and make families have much healthier lives you got it thank you very much for that opening as well start us and then as I mentioned on the right side of the screen wing because they basically saying generally no I don't think there's a war on women thanks for being with us rose and counter points will give you a chance to start rose thanks for being with us well thank you I would say obviously I don't think there's a war on women because I think women have the most rights now than we ever do in history whenever women have problems society puts tend to put that on the highlight whereas men's issues obviously get the back end of it like we have toxic masculinity that's a big thing like people like to talk about so if anything I think there's a war on men but obviously that's an unpopular opinion now obviously there are some instances in life where women are disadvantaged and I absolutely agree if you look at like the wage gap I don't personally believe in that I think men and women tend to choose different things if you look at pregnancy I think that's more biology and I don't think biology is systemic oppression just being incapable of working at certain times or having to have certain obligations I think society should be more accepting generally and they're still progress you've made but I don't believe was a war on women you got it and last but not least color points thrilled to have you with us the floor is all yours yeah so basically what rose just said I feel like society is very accommodating of women both professionally at this point in history and culturally and it doesn't really matter what they want to do we'll try to support them if they want to go after a career awesome if they want to have kids awesome if you want to I don't know stick a fucking fox tail up your ass and call yourself a fucking fox and you know do only fans awesome that there's there's all these fucking opportunities for women to basically do whatever the fuck they want whatever they want to and obviously there's pushback obviously there's Miss Andrew obviously or excuse me misogyny obviously there's a lot of challenges that come with being a woman especially if you choose to have children that that's probably like the main factor kind of like what rose was saying with the wage gap and so as a result it's like fuck no fuck no there's not a war on women they like how my biggest frustration with the the conversation I guess is like women want to have their fucking cake and eat it too they want to be dainty you know love dawn fucking dated open the door chivalry all this bullshit but then they also want to be fucking girl bosses so pick a light you got it and with that we're gonna jump into open conversation but before we do want to say folks if it's your first time here at modern a debate we are a neutral channel hosting debates and panels on science religion and politics we hope you feel welcome no matter what walk of life you're from and don't forget to hit that subscribe button as we have many more debates and panels coming up with that we're gonna jump into open dialogue the floor is all yours thanks so much for being with us gang so when we say pick a lane no the women who want to be girl bosses and the women who want to be little dainty flowers or whatever is it possible that we can make a world where women can choose either or like there can be girl bosses and you don't have to you don't have to make it so that only one of them is like viable right hundred percent but then you're also not going to have a disappearing in disappearance in the wage gap it's not going to happen you can't have both I don't understand why wait but really quick why do you think I'm not even sure most you know people who believe in systemic inequality would say that you know the with all the reforms we want there'd be no wage gap between men and women right that's probably not possible for a number of reasons right I don't know it depends on whatever position you want to take but like I'm saying the way that the wage gap has been treated historically is like oh fucking men treat women like shit which is why they make less money you know everybody's trying to wave a dick in every professional woman's face which is probably true and that there's basically like a whole bunch of like fucked up things in society that are holding women back so some of the wage gap is because we're men are waving their dicks in women's faces yeah I think it's one of the variables so for instance like if you're a chauvinistic misogynist employer and you want to hold a you know power over another woman and then you basically say like hey like you know let's go on a date let's do this let's do that and the woman declines and then you just kind of shadow screw up her career yeah that's absolutely one of the actual harassment and then revenge that's not to do with how much she's making in that position at that moment in time right that's no I would I would say that there are women who are going for high paying jobs that might be paid less because they are more appreciative of the opportunity because they spent most of their life not being told that they are very good at these at things such as maths and sciences and so when they get into the job they are generally over qualified better than men but they don't negotiate for higher than men men will be applauded for most of their life for their mediocrity and they'll go in aiming for the same job and probably negotiate I think it's around like $50,000 more than women and the woman would go and get that job and just take the first offer because she's almost socialized to just appreciate the opportunity and to have just like gone against the grain point blank period you would say she's more qualified in this position but she did take less pay this isn't because of a dick waving in her fucking face this isn't because of sexual harassment in the workplace this is socialized to not have confidence to go for these jobs that you are qualified and excel at it sure but I mean we could have multiple variables all at the same time so I'm not saying every single time I guess we can just talk about swinging dicks and faces and let's see what problem that solves well I don't understand Connor so are you are you the position that because what are you and saying you're saying the gender pay gap is misrepresented but then you described a way in which I think that people who talk about the gender pay gap would would say is a you know contributory factor right sexism in the workplace right but so how is it misrepresented I don't understand so so you basically like you have to bear in mind we're dealing with five years of culture war bullshit coming into this conversation you can say that I like icono boy the fucking king of economics understand the gender wage gap in a very nuanced way in which it's a multivariable analysis and blah blah blah that's not the way that it's been portrayed in popular media media the way that's been portrayed in popular media is we live and assist hetero patriarchal sexist society in which men are holding down women there's a war on women the fact that they're attacking abortions etc etc is this giant misogynist plot to destroy everything that's fucking going on that's the general through line so if you want to come in here and be super fucking nuanced about it I'm perfectly okay with that but that just means that our world views are in line I think it's just being realistic about what the actual problem is instead of just calling it a dick is in your face and that's why you're getting paid less there is you keep bringing that up but the like that's like five percent or three percent if it's not even the majority of the reason why there's a pay gap which I think most people who believe that there's a pay gap would say that it's not the main reason why there's a pay gap I would not say that that is the main reason for the pay gap I don't know why you would bring that up even then so okay so misogyny and men basically being sexist towards women or believing they're underqualified or thinking that they're token hires is not the major variable you're saying that I'm saying that okay we agree a dick a dick waving in their face is very specific sexual harassment yeah it's very specific I don't think that every woman in every job is necessarily getting sexually harassed but I do think yeah there's some underlying misogyny that probably contributes as well as the fact that woman will take lower paying jobs or or will take more time off sacrifice their work time to be with their families where men in the military okay in the military it's a metaphorical dick okay it's a giant floating ephemeral penis that's out of the world I would like to make a point in the military hold on I gotta finish my ephemeral dick I mean it is a real dick it's a literal dick the kind of you know we don't need to really but I want to talk about issue for a lot of different people and I don't I don't I don't think that we should you know kind of treat like a joke because I mean you know it's a part of it's a real part of people's experience I mean some people really that's part of their line of work okay so I want to but I want to talk about a femoral penis is real talking about misogyny can I can I just respond to you talking about misogyny in the workplace because I feel like it's a real thing one because I was just because Conor points was trying to get a point out just before Warren I want to give a quick pithy response from Conor points or rose as well if you have some similarity in terms of Conor points's argument here rose because we haven't heard from you yet and then I promise cherry we'll come right back yeah okay I'll try I'll try to describe my ephemeral penis briefly okay this is a metaphorical penis this is like the big green weenie is what we refer to it in the military okay it's this concept that there's this constant force out there that's trying to fuck you out of things so in the military it's the big green weenie in the in the united states in the general civilian population it's probably just this ephemeral fucking heaven dick but the point being that there's an undercurrent to our society that basically says that men don't treat men don't take women seriously when it comes to the stem fields or they don't you know they basically you know don't give them the pay that they deserve all right off the bat unless they're willing to fight for it unless women develop masculine qualities they're not going to or masculine qualities they're not going to gain a quality so I don't know why we keep circling back to it because it's really just like a single variable of like a multivariable analysis my point though is that we're so aware of all of these variables at that point that or at this point that we're compensating for any of them in a really aggressive way culturally to the point that I feel like whatever the war on woman or women is it's pretty much fucking dead it's it's beaten james can I have an interesting comment that response has promised and then I want to hear from somebody new hopefully whether it be rose okay so so counter points I feel like where you're really going is like I don't know really diving into sexual harassment which is a concern in the workplace but most of what contributes to the wage gap and maybe opportunities in the workplace for women that is directly affected by misogyny is the idea that there are men's locker rooms and stuff like that the idea that cozying up to your boss having opportunities to bond with your boss and to have personal favor and personal gain and make yourself really attractive in the eyes of your employers these are opportunities that are really easy for men there are spaces the whole workspace is for men these spaces aren't very welcoming for women and I'm specifically talking about tech jobs here and for women sometimes going into those spaces there is a threat a threat of sexual harassment or a threat of people looking at you like you are taking like your sexuality to advance yourself in the workplace and so this isn't so much give women like a cheat code to go forward like these are things holding women back they are not women's fault this is how we are socialized we're we're told that women are like off in the workplace we're told women shouldn't be in these situations shouldn't bond with the men in these situations it looks like a sexual opportunity and not being able to socialize in this way in the workplace does hold you back from promotions and opportunities James I something that was really interesting about the exchange between Connor points and Sherry to me you know somebody who's kind of just not not sure where I'm at on this yet was that it seemed like this exposes this reflects a kind of class divide in this country like Connor is making this argument and kind of like a working class framework that is hard for I think somebody like me maybe I mean I'm working class but I'm a lawyer so I did kind of work you know maybe I don't qualify but Sherry's making it from a more I suppose what sounds to me at least a more academic sort of you know a more a more empirical sort of background as opposed to the vibes sort of working class vibes background that Connor is is making his argument from and I feel like that kind of that kind of that kind of clash of perspectives often colors discussions about gender and sexuality in ways that we don't often enough appreciate but I feel like I understand Connor's point now after he kind of went through the whole thing and after I googled this big green wiener that he's talking about I'm finally I get what he's talking about but I mean at first yeah it sounded like it was just like talking about you know dick's waving all that you know I didn't get it so I just I don't know it seems like that's a sort of um disagreement uh something that colors a lot of these kinds of disagreements I feel like if I can if I can summarize I'm not informed by empirical reality on the other you know practical experience often expresses itself in different ways see here's the thing like I don't even know if in this conversation we've even hit disagreement yet basically what's happened was I came out with my ephemeral penis I understand it was a confusing metaphor I'm talking about a single uh like metaphorical variable within the oppressive western capitalist structure but then I'm saying that we have over compensated in the opposite direction to the point that this subculture still exists but it seems like we have diversity equity and inclusion we have sexual harassment campaigns we have sensitivity campaigns capitalism is bending its ass over fucking backwards for women workers it seems like at home we're bending our are breaking our fucking backs to take care of our women as well so it just feels like if there was a war on women women are fucking winning it so you guys are kind of like getting into the weeds of the variables that we're describing and you're just describing variables that I agree with but I just feel like whatever's happening in our culture has overpowered these variables wait but if you agree that those variables exist then why do you think we've over in theory if we've over compensated we would see the reverse we would see women making a lot more than men we would see you know women starting to become dominant you know power hierarchies in society but that's not what we see right the pay gap still exists what's the what's the major variable that rose and I have both said yeah rose if you want to take it take it yeah yeah I was gonna say it's currently a progress I think it's going to take decades for it to fully realize but we're in a society where women are actually doing better in college than men are and I was going to say when it comes to STEM fields and tech jobs I feel like that's an area where there's a lot of sexual harassment right so I feel like that's part of the reason why they don't go into these fields because these fields aren't good for women it's like I'd be great to change the culture but that's a problem and I feel like a lot of the things that people have mentioned it's not like there's people out to get women or out it feels like it's more of a systemic thing wait and it's like oh described a situation where people are out to get women you said there's sexually harassing all these women in STEM that's I mean that's a targeted harassment what are you talking about that's systemic sexism yeah but like to me that doesn't seem like it's the company's faults like they're not like it just feels like that's the environment overall any any company any company that has an environment any any company that has an environment where women are being sexually harassed and thus discouraged from applying there that's the company's fault who who else is to blame for that that's a bad culture I mean corporations can't be blamed for everything they exist for culture we're both neoliberal brothers corporations are our family okay of course corporations set culture best yeah I mean Warren come on okay yeah yeah I just want to make sure you know because I branch your point that you're right that that an enterprise has to do its part to facilitate you know I mean the kind of environment it wants to create and that it should naturally take some kind of ownership for the environment that results but I do think that you know there's there are some of course yeah one one company can't change you know societal culture all that I'm saying those that when you know it seems like on one hand I mean literally on one hand we're saying well there's an environment where women are discouraged from entering an entire field because of disproportionate rates of sexual harassment well but of course that you know that that's not really a problem of culture or society well what else is to blame right of course we're all participants I don't think I don't think anybody's fucking said that and to cut through the memes that's exactly what Rose said to be fair no uh and I don't I don't think she said that at all and and basically to cut through the memes too here's the thing women are outperforming men at college women are outperforming men economically up until when up until they have fucking kids and they leave the workforce for half a decade to a decade that's when they take the pay cap that's where they take the hit so that that's kind of where for me it's like what what the fuck you know what what do you want pick a lane like you can't have and be a maximized corporatist fucking capitalist girl boss what do you mean when you say pick a lane are you referring to that women are leaving for a decade half a decade when they get pregnant which jobs are these it might be me forgive me I hate being picky cherry it's just that your audio seems a little bit muffled now so I might have switched mics I can we can still hear you but just a heads up because otherwise the live chat will eat me alive but in terms of cherry's question I'll give you a chance to respond they're either unemployed or underemployed for five to 10 years well yeah but in in a world where women are not compensated for the work that they do which might be taking care of a family member taking care of a child or something like that that is a world with a systemic inequality that ought to be corrected that's not currently how do you want to correct for it oftentimes oftentimes also you'll notice that that woman will more often sacrifice their job time to go take care of domestic duties and as a result that kind of creates a feedback loop where when you've got two partners in the household um you're gonna and who you're deciding who takes off for the children for these duties with these domestic duties um obviously the person who makes less is going to take off the time and then as a result then you know you keep getting that that feedback and and you know oftentimes companies will look at women who are a childbearing age and see that as a as a detriment whereas they'll look at men who are in within that age and they'll they'll be that as as as a benefit to hiring that person right and so if we if things like paternity would be really great for men because we should probably have more men having the ability to spend time with their kids at home we should when when we even these things as far as like hey gaps and stuff you can definitely see maybe more couples will take turns and who takes time off work and who sacrifices that work time for our domestic duty if we were if we were to control all the social variables and give men and women an equal chance to opt out of the workforce do you think that it's actually going to be a 50-50 distribution on men either becoming underemployed or unemployed I don't think it's 50-50 but I I think there's inherent like um there's like inherent uh you know obviously biological things that come into factor here but um but that doesn't mean we shouldn't strive to uh to create the the circumstances where men can have that choice yeah I mean starting is ultimately right that you know you can control for the outliers all you like but ultimately the point should be to have a society where the individual is free to pursue their own objectives and then if more men you know than women pursue one thing more women than men pursue another then that's fine but but it's important ultimately I guess that people have as much freedom as possible to pursue what it is they individually want to pursue right if y'all okay if y'all want my wife to start working 50 hour weeks in order to pay for me to start taking care of the two kiddos or whatever and basically change out dvds and diapers and piss and shit and fucking clean up the house and play video games when everybody's asleep I'm okay with that listen I'm perfectly okay with this but the but the point is that that's not reality well just to be clear we're talking about paternity leave is not reality because I mean they do that in some no no because paternity leave or maternity leave is eight months actually taking care of a child is decades well so are you so uh yeah I guess I'm not sure what it is we're talking about then because I don't know that anybody anywhere in the world does like full-time permanent state subsidized uh you know sure stay at home that's why I said women disproportionately are underemployed or unemployed for a decade well again again if men and women are are in the same workplace and they achieve you know like semi comparable rates of getting paid then you've got the ability for for more ability within this this partnership for people to choose to take turns taking off for the kids taking care of the kids fathers to go and spend more time with their children and I think that's if anything that would be beneficial to a family why you know I think if anything woman disproportionately having to take off time because they feel like it's a better sacrifice because they get paid less is just depriving these children as well from having this having a father around to to also assist them with some of these things that they have to go and attend the so so far this has been like a game of battleship where like all of you all have just said shit that I don't disagree with so you're just like fucking dropping artillery shells into fucking open water like no nobody disagrees with like staying at home and playing with video games and taking care of fucking kids and shit what we're arguing is whether or not as a society whether or not we have screwed over women with these burdens whether or not we've screwed them over in the workplace where we're basically creating a culture war against the female gender where we're saying fuck you your second class citizens you're going to eat shit and take it and my point is no the opposite hasn't occurred we are in a society that promotes and values women it depends on who you're talking about I would love to hear the examples so some things like for example I'm I get what you're saying like maybe some things aren't visceral enough to rise that level but I mean other things seem like they would like you know and there have been states now that have banned abortion to the point where now people can't get abortions even in many circumstances of rape or medical situations where they might need them and as a result women are being forced to bear children that in some cases they don't want women or that is say girls who are not yet fully grown adults are being forced to have children by agents of the state I mean that's a pretty pretty shocking development among developed countries and then also it seems like there's nothing really that rises to the level of a serious serious kind of issue I mean maybe not to me because I you know I can't get pregnant I'll never have a child but certainly for women I would say also that that's a that's a great example of like a very serious kind of like culture war it seems especially when a lot of these that there are abortions cases where abortions are just a medical necessity for the woman and now you see in states people talking about a woman having being forced to carry pregnancies until the fetus inside them is already dead and so so I do think that there is a very serious issue there and sure maybe the the work imbalances there's always going to be some sort of imbalance there but that doesn't mean we don't strive to make a work culture where where there's at least a choice for men and women at least a choice at least the individual choice regarding work culture this might be an opportunity to talk about stem fields in particular and more importantly more specifically their disproportion of men is this because of some sort of war on women or are there other reasons that it might be listen I won't I won't forget the abortion stuff yeah I can hear you I won't forget the abortion stuff if you guys want to get into the abortion stuff real quick but if you want to get into the work stuff real quick like I'm I'm okay with half the shit you're saying and honestly if you want to invert this shit I'll invert this shit all day you want to say that like two-thirds of women are graduating with four-year degrees and one-third of men are graduating with four-year degrees therefore we need to get 50-50 representation for men sure let's fucking do it you want to get 50 percent male representation in teaching or nursing let's fucking do it base let's fucking go let's get some goddamn boys in this clue in the clue a lot in the classrooms again to start fucking teaching some badass shit mentoring our fucking youth I'm all for the choice I'm also all for optimization what I'm not for which I haven't heard from y'all tonight but I'm just saying this is kind of the straw man of like progressives or liberals or whatever is there is a disparity therefore there is systemic injustice therefore until we have equity uh fucking white straight men are fucking everybody else over which you can you can act like nobody's saying that shit but I can just log on to twitter.com real quick if you want true but I feel like lots of people are saying that as our former president would would have put in many people are saying I mean it's true but but if people but again we're talking about the whole war on women right the idea that the way that you just framed it basically you know society fucking over women if you agree with with you know the descriptive fact that women do a lot of uncompensated work right and that women are sort of shoehorned into many professions that leave them to you know not make as much as men you mentioned they don't work for I guess 10 years less than the average man or something like that um then you would agree that society is proposing you know forcing women externally to fit certain roles that lead to worse material outcomes for them and if you if you don't want to call that a war that's fine but if you agree that there's systemic inequalities that ought to be addressed with policy I mean it sounds like you agree you're just you're just upset with these twitter people that I don't know you've made up or the people that you know they're real but the no no no but this is actually a question boy when you say they're being forced like to do this stuff like in in what way I guess well we're talking we're talking about societal pressure basically right I mean I don't know I mean there might be some people who are holding more than societal no we don't societal pressure is I mean we can't just we can't just ignore the only thing I was going to say we can't just ignore the great impact that societal and social pressure has I mean ask the average middle schooler how much they feel the societal pressure around them I mean sure certainly we can we can resonate with that certainly that's not like the kind of standard that we should judge a free individual by right I mean individuals ought to take no themselves you make their own choices to pursue what it is they learn with life I mean you don't judge them that but you want to understand but you want to understand why people don't get to achieve maybe everything that they should or why they are coming up short like why a woman who is maybe overqualified for a job is getting passed over for a promotion and understanding why she doesn't feel like she should get that promotion right you want the you want the excellent people to progress in this world you want them to have these jobs you want them to excel and to push for innovation true and if we want the best people there yeah we have to understand why they're not getting there no that's a good point I mean I recently saw something about let me I'll just I'll shut up after this but just because I really wanted to respond to that I saw this really cool program from a group called girls who code where they're working with Raytheon technologies the company currently helping build the javelin missiles blowing up the Russian tanks in Ukraine and you know I think that you know I saw a lot of people posting this meme that I think is just disgusting and sexist and repulsive and awful where they're saying uh oh the next uh it's a picture of some people in the Middle East and then there's a drone and they're saying oh the next one is going to be sent by a woman and it's like first of all drones are an important part of America's military uh position and the fact that we have women working on them now I think is a good thing it's important that we remain the most powerful country in the world and that there are no countries that can threaten us and the fact that we are now taking advantage not just of the talent of American men but American women toward that goal I think that's great so I'm excited I think you're right we're not just now taking advantage of it but we're just now highlighting it because we understand that women are valuable here so we know that showing them being valuable here instead of hiding them in history is going to be something that helps more women grow up and be not ashamed or not feel like they don't belong in this world or in this field or in this high skilled uh industry and it's people honestly like counterpoints that are like I'm so sick of seeing this women representation you're seeing it for a fucking reason and also I would like to add that even even for like forgetting about forget about these industries that we're talking about now even female dominated industries uh that in general are systematically undervalued and paid less um even for men in those industries right and though men who are in those female dominated industries tend to make more um so so um there are tons of jobs that are very valuable that should be paid more right uh that are not that are not getting paid more they're they're like nurses should be paid more there are female dominated industries that are incredibly important I think nurses are actually high paying jobs they are high paying jobs but they should they should get paid more okay I haven't spoken a while so I'm gonna say a few things and I'll try to get through them quickly so I know this is going to back to what we said earlier in the conversation I apologize so first of all there was a point made earlier in this conversation that women don't get paid as much because they don't advocate for themselves more and I think the problem here is wage transparency and people were more open about the dialogue than we'd see that more often and I think that'd be helpful and also at the end of the day there is systemic problems but at the same time you have to put some of the accountability on yourself you have to advocate for yourself and if you feel like a situation is unfair you need to be able to go to your employer and say that I think men and women have two unequal situations I think privilege I mean you can see it as a privilege or a disadvantage depending on how you see it like men don't get a click their jobs for four years but the same time you say that those years aren't you know they don't get to work whereas men get those extras which leads them to be more often to promote I would say that women are more likely do jobs where they enjoy themselves or are fulfilled by whereas men more often will go to what pays me the most and it might be more miserable from it I mean that's my personal experience from my own parents and what I've seen but it could be different for other people you know if men try to stay at home society is really harsh on them and the last thing is the drone meme I think it points out the absurdity of our culture focusing on the wrong things our country is literally killing innocent citizens worldwide but we're ignoring that and we're putting more focus on gender equality and I think that's the point of the meme I'm sorry this is a geo poll this is the war Russian tanks those people are heroes who are developing those drones the work they're doing is important they're patriots men and women and frankly I think it's great that women are doing this now too more trans I can just say that yes wage transparency is the reason why we know that there's a wage gap so more wage transparency that doesn't solve the problem that is what's making us aware of the fact that the reason why some of this is because women don't know that they can negotiate because they are not socialized to have the confidence and to understand that they their abilities exceed in these industries okay so you just said a whole bunch of like wonderful empty sentiments congratulations so okay hold on so like this is my thing how far do y'all want to extend your logic like I'm okay with extending your logic as a matter of fact like you kind of pointed out in some circumstances it's actually helpful but like are we going to like extend this out into like MMA fighting electrical linemen are we going to extend this out into brick layers and fucking sewage workers and shit like are we going to say that it's a systemic racism up until we have 50% fucking why is this a sneak a line nobody watches the w nba get out here well nobody does watch the nw w nba but that's not my point what is the logical extension of your work I don't think any counterpoint just a second really quick once we'll give you a chance to finish counterpoints and then we'll go over to start us I think you oh well well okay yeah so so I'll just I'll finish the idea really quickly now I don't give a fuck about the w nba or women's soccer or any of that shit what I'm saying is where does the logical extension stop because so far we have a formula in the formula is disproportionate male income disproportionate male representation equal equal systemic fucking gendered bias so if we have a job let's say 50% CEOs 50% trans drone pilots 50% fucking Raytheon engineers and all that kind of shit we hit all the cool jobs at that point are we going to continue to extend the logic and say ah shit only fucking 5% of brick layers or fucking men or excuse me women only 5% of linemen and sewage workers or fucking women we got to bump those numbers up and we're just going to sociologically manipulate fucking women to doing these jobs until they fucking want to very high jobs but those are jobs that have they don't have a high pool of people willing to or skilled enough to work those labors so that I don't I don't think anybody is going to deny that certain that sometimes you know certain genders gravitate towards certain jobs nobody's going to deny that in fact if you look at countries where there's more gender equality you'll find that people diverge even more in the jobs that they choose but that that doesn't take away from the fact that there are female dominated industries that are underpaid and there are there is a real issue where women are constantly and consistently sacrificing their work hours for domestic duties because they feel like they are the ones who are who have to do that because they're the ones who make less so so I'm not saying that we need to have quotas for the certain job industries or anything like that I'm saying we need to find a way to to even the playing field so people at least have the choice I'm you know people are going to diverge on things there there's some there's just some natural divergence there but people need to have the choice to to go out and pursue what they want in the workforce and and and decide to when they want to sacrifice those work hours for their family can I ask a question that might might I'm curious what people different views think about this so if disparity suggests a certain inequality of access just any disparity um then at what point do we I guess like how would we ever know if um you know if we all agree that perhaps things won't ever be naturally 50 50 just based on people's interests how would we know whether we had eliminated um you know enough barriers to where we could confidently say okay the differences that are left are just based on individual choice and you know like is there a way to ever know that or is it really um is Connors you know what I'm thinking is Connors straw man is his point um actually true that there is no way really to ever be fully satisfied that we've eliminated a lot of inequality unless things are 50 50 or basically how would we know how could we measure if I can if I can address um counterpoints I understand what you mean that there are these let's say um low not low skill but like blue color jobs right these don't pay the best and most men they want to go after really high paying jobs um but the problem is there's a lot there's high demand for these blue color jobs and these jobs a lot of them have union representation because for the high demand it's easily to be it's easy to be replacing those jobs so what you can get paid usually goes down because you are replaceable and for that on top of a like 40 hour work week that usually goes over time and you're accompanied by short staff and you're overworked in this regard you wouldn't want it to be get these women out of the job get more men to take these jobs the these people need the the money you would want there to be a shorter work week you would want there to be less hours worked and for these jobs to actually be adequately staffed and so where it's like an average paying job there's a lot less stress in this like blue collar region because what we see with low with the um with like low demand jobs like plumbers and laying brick and stuff like that um or like fixing them like mcdonald's um frosting machine or whatever it's called these jobs no one's going after them so they do end up to be like really high paying and honestly really dangerous and that's like why no one's going for them but like because there's a demand to fill it that's why it gets more money where as like these middle like blue collar jobs maybe women aren't the problem here and maybe they can be part of the actual solution here well i'm not sure if i understand are you saying that the problem is that some people have to work too hard and there's too many hours and i get too much overtime because like it seems like for the people they are forced to work overtime they want their folks are forced to work overtime you're we're talking about men being dissatisfied right men doing these blue collar jobs that aren't being paid very much because they would like to go for high paying jobs that they feel like they have to compete with women for so if we're we want the quality of life to go up for men and for women to be able to compete for these high paying um high skilled jobs and there's men who are not matching up to women's skill and their graduation level we should probably make it so that these blue collar jobs lead a more fulfilling life that maybe becoming like filthy rich isn't like the path or um like you can make the the same amount of money now but with a lot less uh overtime a lot less strain on your day to life more hours to your day give them health care so that they can have an enjoyable life outside of their career i would like to answer uh warrants sorry oh sorry go ahead you you would ask earlier if there is a natural divergence if there is going to be a divergence how are how are we going to determine um that some of these uh like disparities and pay um uh are not uh a result of actual inequality and just of personal preference and i think we can determine that we've looked at like uh like gender equality and how it's measured in different countries and we've seen that um in these different countries where there's more gender equality you see more women um choosing uh certain fields and more men choosing other fields you see that the divergence is even more so i think there are ways to measure this um uh without um that that can make things pretty clear because if they're able to measure even that much i think they're able to measure um uh these different disparities and and uh measure um the opportunity that somebody has if they choose to sacrifice or not sacrifice but do do i have to deal with that bludgeon hold on do i have to deal with that bludgeon 100 fucking years from now when we have like 90 fucking nursing females 90 teaching males and we have like gender equity or equality like across like all these different levels do i still have to hear that these industries are dominated by men because of the fucking patriarchy i don't know i don't think that's necessarily true there are going to be some industries it is completely fine that there are some industries that are dominated by males and it's completely fine that there are some industries dominated by women this again happens in countries where it happens in countries where there's even more gender equality than there is here and i think that that's fine but we do have to acknowledge that there are certain industries that even though they we think that they're well paid or we think that um we think that they're um uh they're fine or whatever that are are systematically underpaid um and those tend to be female dominated industries that are very valuable industries um and i'm not saying that there isn't going to be you know there there's obviously going to be some natural divergence but we want to make um everybody have the equal opportunity to um to make choices in their lives whether they want to sacrifice that uh their work hours for domestic duties or or vice versa so yeah the the issue isn't isn't the unequal employment in a particular industry like if there's someone out i mean i'm sure there's some like weird you know person on twitter who's saying like literally every industry should be 50 50 you know men and women or something like that and some a lot men for trans people right but i mean most people would just say that the issue isn't the unequal employment it's if unequal employment is attributable to sexism or systemic sexism right that's the problem like that's the thing that you want to collapse is systemic sexism leading to these unequal outcomes so but how would you know because frankly it seemed like you know what what stardust said was while other countries offer some examples of how to measure it better but i mean admittedly i didn't really hear a like kind of end point where we could know and then sherry seemed to be saying that basically we have to reshape all of society not just make things more accessible for women but you know change the fundamental nature of work even for perhaps people who want to work lots of overtime and yeah and i mean i don't want to i want other people to have opportunity but i don't want to be you know i don't want to change you know my own ability to work and earn and achieve i mean if i have to give that that's not not really interesting so what i'm good what i'm talking about is not so much changing high school i'm just curious what they are that's all so i'm not i'm not talking about changing high-skill labor but if we do look at the majority of jobs in this country they're a blue collar let's like look at amazon workhouse um and fedex delivery drivers people like this and it's it's individuals like connor who understand hey as a man i want to make money right that's my goal that maybe i'm not like super motivated for like um a high paying job because i'm interested in this i want to make a lot of money because i want to support my family and that's what's important to me and the fact that men will have like resentment for women who maybe deserve to be there and get there and they honestly don't deserve to be there they would lose to a woman we have to make it so that these men have satisfying fulfilling lives in their blue color industry now i'm glad you mentioned that because that is an interesting point now i didn't really like the way you put it earlier when you said there are a lot of i might have scrambled but you are nevertheless probably correct that there are men who basically are someone invested in the status quo because they sort of fear that they would lose out on on or they would have to change they would have to work a little harder to do a lot i don't know how common that is perhaps now compared to say the past when a lot of this got going but i think there's probably something to that and i said like you're saying we need to create opportunities basically for low performers because high performing women will compete will out compete lower performing men and those lower performing men need to have opportunities that they can do perhaps alongside lower performing women too yeah yeah sorry go ahead the only way to really help their industry become less stressful to have shorter work hours in the day and have shorter work like work days in the week so that they can not feel like the entirety of their life needs to have the passion of their job right we understand that there can be a gas station worker who can have passions outside of being a gas station attendant um and and live like uh go through our go for music or something hobbies that make their life fulfilling whereas there's a lot of people who go into high careers like tech or um or banking and stuff like that because they are aggressively motivated in that way and they feel fulfillment in their lives in that direction the only way you really get to that shorter week to allow people to have that sort of um enjoyment outside of their life is to add women into the workforce is to welcome them into doing these blue collar jobs because honestly also all women are not going to get high paying jobs so if i might interpret this just to put a point on it all right i want then you're saying perhaps i would even agree with this that the way to have more time off is to increase the productivity of society overall and that means higher performing women should have the ability to get the best slots they can just like high performing men should have the best chance to get the slots they can the only thing i guess i would say is that it seems to me like the mechanism for um um motivating people to work hard the irrespective gender is salary and pay and that's why like earlier folks were kind of saying well people should generally be paid more as well and i i'm not sure that there's a better sorting mechanism to well no there's that's you know in terms of you know willingness to strive that's why i'm saying you change the blue collar industry right we already know high skilled jobs are going to get high paying money but for the for the um blue labor jobs who are they are in high demand so they like that salary generally doesn't go up it usually requires unions to negotiate and make sure salaries continue to increase as inflation increases i'm going to disagree people's jobs okay sorry i think i'm going to disagree because there's certain there are certain jobs like blue collar jobs that are actually um a lot of people don't do them and because there are a few very few people to fill those slots they get paid um really really well i don't think that there's i really i want to not high demand blue collar those are low demand blue collar like plumbing and like um brick playing and stuff like that and that's why they get high pay i think y'all are y'all are sorry that the reason no no just one second the reason this is confused is because sherry's saying low demand i think what she means is low supply like not a lot of people want to like yeah yeah okay so obviously there's a lot of demand for people being like you need your plumber right you need your electrician so obviously there's a relative demand for that stuff right um i'm using demand as in like um for people going for the job so yeah i guess i'm using the wrong word yeah anyway i was just gonna to it's a warrants question there are i mean to me there are ways that you can you can measure you know sexism in a society i mean none of them are entirely holistic or perfect but you can try to right and then so far as you can you should try and minimize those things we can think of different studies that have been conducted like um a favorite of many like sort of social scientists because they're relatively easy to set up and they're and they're pretty good is this is the resume studies right where you take a resume and you just change the name to be you know gender coded one way or another or like race coded one way or another and you see different outcomes right i mean you know why is it when you put a black or Hispanic sounding name you get worse employment outcomes so well that's because of racism like that's literally the only explanation that you can think of right when you when you change Mary to Mike you get much different and disparate employment outcomes right why why would people be less willing to hire Mary but more willing to hire Mike well it's clearly some sexism that's going on there and there's different designs that you can do for this right again it's it's it's less about you know the disparate employment outcomes and it's more about the reasons for those employment outcomes than trying to collapse any sort of structural lack of opportunity that women or any particular person might face whether it be men or women or black or white people or whatever it is how do you know no fuck this fuck this hold on Jesus Christ this Warren yeah how do you raise children equitably what do you mean Connor how do you rate exactly what i fucking mean how do you have an exactly 50 50 fucking share of labor domestic labor income hours how are you not getting i feel like no i i i i i i explain to this i've explained this as simply as a human being can explain this it is not about anything you fucking said it is part of this well then why did you say it then are you just are you speaking because i feel like everybody on the fucking panel is no i feel like everybody's i'm sorry for misunderstanding your point i assumed it had to do with what i said that was i have a side step i oh there's going to be uh how many times have i said it how many times have i said there's going to be to hear this point from counter and then we'll come right back to you start us okay yeah so so this yeah economy you you guys are all reforming the fucking labor market so men can be more sensitive and in tune with their souls and they won't be labor you know workaholics and they can they can do they can do they can do we would want to feminize men yep yep i get it you're such a virtue signaler you want to do you want to be working i'm i'm going to be a little rude there are little tiny plastic men right here that i paint i do the least masculine shit available and i have hobbies outside of fucking work you're talking to somebody who takes the advice that you're given by the way i just feel like the panel is largely side stepping the main thing which is pregnancy in child rearing this is disproportionately going to affect women there's no way around it it's going to fuck up their careers it's going to fuck with their hours it's going to fuck with their bodies it's going to fuck with their brains it's going to fuck with everything that they fucking do okay no one is encouraging all women to go into high skill jobs no one's encouraging all women to forego the family life okay for a demanding career right we already have no we are we are absolutely encouraging people to do that i i i i've explained it so many times already in here that there's all there's always going to be some sort of divergence and there's always going to be some sort of disparity then you're not i am not on your side because i think we can still do better okay so do the fucking better but nobody gives a shit like what do you want me i think i want men and women to do worse do you think that's my argument like no no i think i think you're i think you work look Connor you sound super bitter about this and i'm not trying to be i'm not trying to um i'm not i'm not trying to put men down i'm not trying to put uh uh families down if anything i am trying to advocate for a world in which more people have the agency to spend time with their families that's all i'm trying to advocate for here all right uh i just agrees with that all i think you've been incredibly bitter this entire time it's very hard to like even make it hard you all are like not listening to the words i'm saying i feel like i feel like i feel like i'm engaging with you i'm engaging with you you're just super mad man i think in my in my theory of a future i do address a lot of what you're talking about this idea that the the husband and the wife can both work they will have a shorter work week um they will have shorter work hours during the day ideally we would provide pre-k and our schooling system would be ideal there would be after school programs you wouldn't you wouldn't be working the crazy hours the overstressed weeks that you would have more time in your day to enjoy your time with your family and raise your kids perhaps we could go farther and consider communal parental arrangements i mean they did some of the content in israel in 1950s wow and they have some outcomes the people raising our children i mean i think it is worth considering is it really worth talking about this and the you know individualist framework that that everybody's been talking about it in so far where there's mom and dad i mean what about hillary clinton's book it takes a village you know communal ownership of children i'm not saying ownership of children but you know i mean if we're going to talk about the government going full scale anyway you know and doing a lot of other things with the economy well there are examples of communal living arrangements that nobody talks about anymore why not well yeah why not have a child rearing uh not really who's going to take on disproportionate labor in the communal living scenario like the idea that it takes a village i think most people would agree with that right it's pretty difficult being a single parent out there um to address connor's point directly i mean i think that what connor brings up is the idea that well you know women have this sort of inherent inequality that affects their labor outcomes right they get pregnant they have children right so how does how does society address the fact that women get pregnant and have children aren't they always going to be burdened by this right and i think that that's where you know people like cherry road so i understand your point to respond to and i think that's where people i would assume cherry warren and stardust and i would all agree that of course that exists right um however i think that what we would also say is that in so far as women have number one a free choice of that pregnancy and number two that that pregnancy does not necessarily systemically disadvantage them for labor market outcomes then that's totally fine it's going to take time off you know but it doesn't it doesn't it doesn't have it doesn't have to that's that's how we've actually already seen legislation trying to help with this with um with families who the wife does get pregnant wife is raising kids and so they're they're cutting down to a one income household where we do live in an era where most families need two incomes right we saw the child tax credit so that's essentially our government maybe this is the village we provide money to the mother and essentially we value stay at home moms in this way we make it a job we make it an income an income that's going directly to raising that kid so we are placing value on women who do not choose to join the workforce but instead want to stay home and raise kids i would still support that and maybe even increase how much they gave rose any thoughts yeah i have a lot so i'm going to do this whole thing again a holiday so first of all i think one of the main things there's a huge problem when women are forced to work nine to five and they're expected to do most of the homework i think this tends to lead to negative outcomes women i think the solution to that is to create an environment where it's more accepting and more financially like viable to actually be a stay at home working woman because we used to have these like you know you just mentioned there used to have these one income households and we don't have that financial economy anymore i think there's a lot of great women who are getting overlooked the problem is when you say things like there's a lot of mediocre men that kind of falls on deaf ears just the way phrase things i know it means the same thing um why do women get paid less personally men can handle being called mediocre they need to start accepting it i don't think that's going to win anyone over and i don't like that language but whatever i just think that why do women jobs get paid less there's a few reasons i think the main one is that when people get paid it's directly correlated to what the market value of those jobs are and then the jobs that women tend to choose you know tend to be different that way but however i would say if there's no shortage in job openings then the pay is going to be lower because they're not desperate for people they don't need to like hire the wages so that they can have people that work there there's already like a huge supply and there's a huge demand so they don't need to do anything there also i would say um the greater of issue overall is that wages should be increased you can argue that people work in factories like where food production is made like that's the most important role we saw what happened the pandemic the people doing the basic jobs are basically upholding the whole system why aren't they getting paid more like i don't think it's just like a men women thing i think that there are some valid points to be made there but i think it's more complex than just that look i don't think men hey man they're getting paid that should be paid i don't think i have a monopoly of on on on being underpaid that's i mean i don't think anybody would disagree with that i mean but everything you just described is a systemic inequality right when women are sort of socially cordoned off into care type roles that pay less right there was a there was a study that showed that states that had more gender accepted or i could say a more less traditional family role structures women tended to have less proportional roles in child care activities and child care positions which pay less on the gender pay gap was lower because of it i mean everything that you gotta go i feel like i feel like one more sentence one more sentence is that well it seems like rose every time you're talking you mentioned systemic inequality systemic inequality but but then you're saying well there's no war on women it feels like we just have a problem with the word war but we're agreeing that systemic inequality exists i mean sure we okay econo boy yeah i feel fuck me okay go ahead shut up counter points god if you got counter points uh if you have a thought that was related to an earlier point from econo boy i'll give you a chance otherwise rose if you have something to respond to from a later point can i i got the uh i got the coronavirus in my brains my brain's a little fuzzy so econo boy i feel i feel like you can hear me and track exactly what i'm gonna say i hear y'all i love you i love you too thank you so i feel like with the variables that we're talking about y'all are bringing up variables that we can fix hypothetically we might just agree on whether or not they can be fixed but we believe that they can be fixed better work hours better worker conditions better family care better hours blah blah fucking blah right why do you address econo boy if you're talking about all of my ideas that i've said on this because i'm sexist god so anyway mediocre by the way thanks women need to accept the fact that they're fucking mid okay um and so econo boy the but what i'm saying that i want you to address is that there are fucking there are just some things about pregnancy and child rearing that are going to hit women disproportionately and when you have people like sherry and like uh stardust and like warren saying we just want to balance out the opportunities but we don't care if we actually have a 50 50 representation across the board on the higher ends of shit we just want to maximize the opportunities for everybody then you're still going to have a disproportionate fucking hit for women just because of the way that markets pregnancy biology and child rearing work so you're saying you can solve the system i don't think you fucking can because of the way it works so here we go i know that you're talking to you're addressing econo boy but you're kind of talking to me and addressing all of my points so i'll respond to you the same way that i think there are men who need to be told that they're mediocre there are women who need to be told that hey you go raise a fucking family this is what you want to do you're going to be miserable trying to work a uh an office job trying to work a desk job that's not for everybody we understand that and sometimes it's okay to choose tradition sometimes not being an independent girl boss is perfectly fucking fine you can go you could be the the white girl with the fucking white sweater and the ugg boots and live laugh and love i love that for you just live your life the way that you want to do it be the type of woman that you want to be be the mother you want to be i'll have a question when you're done a career woman that you want to be and and let that happen and let that exist and i think that stuff like the child tax credit allows women the opportunity to choose that i want to say i have a question though hold on as an ordinary citizen i'm totally okay with doing things that don't cost extra money for me but i'm very skeptical of doing things that will cost extra tax money for me especially in a time of rising international competition or we need to increase so boss do you think that investing in our new generation is costing you taxpayer dollar or is it saving you money in the future well i'm i'm not sure i mean that's really guess i guess where i'm why i mentioned it i'm i'm i'm interested in uh reducing discrimination but i'm not interested in paying more to reduce the discriminatory behavior that other people engage in i'm not engaging this okay hold the fuck up we're drifting away we're drifting away what are you got counter points so i guess i'm i'm uh i'm curious like maybe there are things we can do perhaps that you know cost more costs less you know um okay we're drifting away from a point that was a question to econo boy and is now a question to sherry because she's saying that i'd fucking basically address all of your points okay so the question is pregnancy and raising children disproportionately affects women y'all can see that there's systemic shit that we can fix and that will improve outcomes for most people particularly when it comes to a quality of opportunity but not a quality of outcome so what i'm saying is there's an equality of outcome like prescription from y'all you're saying you can solve the gender pay gap you can solve this disparate outcomes between men and women but then you're also leaving in the fact that people are going to make choices that they're disproportionately going to affect women and pregnancy is the fucking nuclear bomb of goddamn choices when it comes to outcomes so how do you diffuse the nuclear fucking bomb because so far i haven't heard it at all i think they've explained how it's just it seems like you don't believe the how the child tax credit how we've explained it do you think that makes up for labor with the money there's 167 hours in a week 300 dollars doesn't make up for 167 hours i have to just one at a time in terms of i think they heard you counterpoint so it's pretty loud i went first jane everyone heard it but we're in i would love to hear what econo boy i said i thought he has a really good point right now hold on just because i wasn't sure if warren was heard and folks let me know each other i'm just saying i think i think we understand at least i think i understand your point car just see it seems like you're concluding that no program of basically transfer payments like cherry was talking about or kind of other ideas like that it sounds like you're just saying that's hey that's cute but that's bullshit doesn't matter whether you want to do it or not that's not going to make up for pregnancy because pregnancy is just such a big thing i mean that's is that basically your point yeah it's a fucking band-aid on a gunshot it's fucking crazy if i can answer that if i can answer that there's a lot of families that have a two household income but it's the wife the mother who is working her job to take a large portion of that pay to pay for like daycare childcare so you're saying we're saying that there is going to be a credit that goes to the mother she's going to do the labor but we don't have to worry about like $2,000 a month for a random person to watch your kids you're going to do that but here is going to be enough money to make sure that you have food in the house that your that your kid is clothed and that you can invest in their like education and obviously it's not just throw a random amount of fucking money at them but it's not going to equal that to working a job if you have another income in your household but you don't want to think that our congressmen can like create like common sense like whatever for that there's there's basically i can think of three reasons why pregnancy would lead to like systemic inequalities for women right so one might be like the social attitudes of pregnancy so like employers look at a pregnant woman and they say i'm not going to hire her because she's pregnant and she's going to have to take six months i'll take care of the baby well i mean sure you society's already addressed that to some extent you can make it illegal you can have you know lawsuit and sort of you know legal remedies for that kind of thing you know on the private and public market you know so i feel like society can address that the second thing is loss of income right i mean if you're out taking care of a child and you're not out working right you're not making money right and so that's what we've said in this panel a thousand times is uncompensated work society can come in compensate women and you know basically stay at home parents for the work that they're doing taking care of their children and then the third thing that i can think of is loss of work experience you could say right so you know if you're taking care of a child for five years until they go to to kindergarten well that's five less years of work experience that you have and so you're going to enter the labor market labor market say at 30 with five less years of work experience as male you know 30 year olds right and well society can do a couple things to solve this that's not perfect right but you can provide education to these women right you can give them like i said money so that they can afford to train themselves you can also engage in certain you know certain policies that many governments engage in right you can look at different policies and there's a reason for instance at the middle east and former ussr countries have these incredibly high rates of attainment and stem degrees for women right it's because the government engages in education campaigns because they're aware of that systemic inequality and they try to address it and those changes seem persistent to this day and so it appears that those types of campaigns really work to address those things and so you know three the three things that i can think of at least when it comes to being pregnant and that those leading to worse outcomes it seems like society can actually address all of those things well for what it's worth though it does seem like you are conceding part of what connor's saying in the sense that you can do something to address them but you can never really completely close that gap because there's no substitute for the time spent raising the child having the like there's no way to ever really fully close the gap there's always there's always yeah there's there's always it depends on what your preferences are right if your preferences i want to have a career and you get pregnant right then obviously the pregnancy is going to be somewhat burdensome in that career in the sense that you're going to have to take at least a few weeks off to have the baby and recover and stuff like that right there's there's always going to be some minimal level of of burden that you have sure right we have substitutes for that you kind of boy well that's no but cherry we have maternity leave let's let's hear let's hear the rest of what a convo yes because because she's thank you for sticking up and making sure men talk go handy con boy well cherry it's just that you're interrupting but i'm actually agreeing with you that's that's exactly right what i just said was that there are actually policy solutions to all of these problems that goes towards solving that gap i mean there's a reason that there are many households with both children but also women that earn more right it's because apparently there are solutions to these problems and in so far as people are sorting themselves out based on a free choice positive liberty like Warren mentioned earlier that's totally fine i mean that's that's all we're saying okay so i want to address that there's actual solutions for this and people have already um come to the conclusion that women getting a maternity leave accompanied by paternity leave is really what you need for a child to get the adequate attention from the parents to still haven't healthy uprising and that after i think it is a three to six month period that there is no harm in the parents going back to work and that the child was able to bond with the parent efficiently enough that you would want the child to be able to have a healthy relationship with the family and socialize with their parents so we have addressed this and it's not in every industry but it is something that is progressing towards more industries well just okay though sure do you disagree with what i said earlier where i was saying it sounds like there are ways to close that gap somewhat but it doesn't sound like there's really a way to make up for time i mean you can only make it less harmful can i can i demonstrate that economically close that yeah so if i if i could demonstrate that economically my son who i have because i have a fucking child uh you know he sleeps eight hours a night right so that leaves 16 hours in the day 16 times let's just assume my wife is going full time 16 times seven that's 112 hours 112 hours out of the week let's pay your minimum wage because you know fuck women and shit so that's $900 a week so 900 times four that's $3,600 you're just gonna start paying people with kids that money like where the where the fuck this is coming from we should pay women when they raise kids of course we should explain to you that you don't have to give them what the money economy who is doing a daycare societal right if there is another income in the household you factor that in and you uh you you size it down who the fuck wants to work full time with a kid anyways like like i don't want to work full time with a fucking kid i'd rather hang out with my kid like like fuck and that's why we're not and that's why you don't give them the same pay as like a high career job or something like that like there's still it's still encouraged that maybe um like this money is for the child not so much a replacement for just um existing in this world like we don't want people just popping out kids instead of contributing to society we still want people to have kids in a healthy way and so it's encouraged that you have a two parent household one person is working but we are putting value on the stay at home mom in that situation by not giving her a full career's job like compensation by giving her enough so that she does feel valued in her job and that she is um contributing to society and having some form of uh independence in doing so for her child okay i understand what you said i'm gonna take that in take that under its full context and not be shitty about anything that you just said what i am saying though back to you is that we use societal metrics for outcomes like years in career and pay and education and mobility and all that kind of stuff i'm saying even if we do what you do women will be disproportionately fucked over by having a kid even if we say you're saying if they want to go back into workforce yeah i'm saying when when and if they want to go back into the workforce they will probably be five years behind their peers exponentially training wise pay wise promotion wise nepotism wise all of that stuff they will be behind and because we're boiling it down to a choice where some men can stay home and some women can stay home i almost guarantee you even though the memes about being a gamer dad are fucking out there it's going to be eight to fucking two it's going to be four to one uh fucking men to women and women to men people who stay in the workforce versus stay home it's it's going to follow along gendered lines also you said like oh we have to bring up a system for bringing up healthy kids yeah we've had that for a long time it's uh men fucking do a majority of the goddamn work and then women focus on the kids that's the system we're progressing towards it with a paternity leave a family leave i guess is what they want to call it but i understand what you're saying the idea that you would have kids and maybe if you choose to be a stay at home mom and when your child grows up that you then want to go back into the workforce and you will be behind um i'm sorry but this is kind of being an adult you kind of have to plan your life and if you chose to have kids and that's held you back five years in your career i think that's reasonable and you shouldn't be ashamed of that and coming back at a um five years behind in your career shouldn't be shunned and if you truly like that career you will put the effort in to go and climb back up you shouldn't be on par with someone who has been in the workforce for five years while you were raising a kid do not feel ashamed for taking five years off for raising your kid i love that now tweet it and let's see what the reactions are that was a lot of tweets honor well i i think that is a that is a fair point i mean that's while i agree with what sherry said i find it i think that would be i think there's never that the sentiment you just expressed sherry um i don't know that there is a lot of um um like i think you're right because ultimately that's the alternative that somebody who's done that work is set uh in relative terms back but at the same time there is a lot of i think frustration with the the lost time it's viewed as a loss because we are so we are so competitive and um and maybe in comparing our lives to others and we're not so much focusing on what makes us happy but comparing our lives to other people and seeing what makes them happy and aspiring for it and this is just really an overall unhealthy way that we're living our lives in society it's going to be hard to break from it why why sorry it's just fucking hell okay why do we need to break from it so so for instance like i'm okay with all the incentivization i'm okay with the equality of opportunity i'm okay with saying you do you girl boss whatever the fuck what i am saying though is why do we need to break from kind of like the function like why why is there even the impulse because i i think with social media um especially this idea of being competitive i think it works a lot for certain people i think it drives a lot of people and motivates them and makes them better but i think for many others maybe a majority of other people it stresses them out it makes their life feel lackluster they feel unfulfilled in comparison and really they are held to a lower regard for it and they don't have the flashy things to display um they don't have a lucrative career they don't have nice cars which are all the things that we thumbs up in this world on social media among each other uh that's why you think it's unhealthy and not because this never works out that way but i think for most people this is not working out and it's contributing to a unfulfillment in their lives okay please all right um i just yeah i was gonna say okay so before i saw some of you mentioned like why are you're confused as to why i say things that i do you know i'm so adamant that there's not a one woman so i'll tell you but first of all i'm not going to deny that gender biases do exist because they always have and let's be honest here 2022 is the best time to be a woman in human history so the same as a one woman now makes no sense to me and let's be clear that when most people say there's a war on women i assume what people are referring to is this active campaign by so-called backwards republicans who want to roll back from its rights which is kind of a key buzzword to say basically abortion they'll mention a case of someone who is like 10 or 14 years old and wasn't able to get one which is obviously awful but it also doesn't really represent most of the cases whatever i don't want to get into an abortion because i don't think this is what this my perspective i've been raised in a liberal family i've heard feminist messages my whole life and how awful this be woman i transitioned and i feel like society treated me better i just don't see enough to really suggest that there's this like huge societal campaign against women i just personally don't feel that way any last thoughts from anybody else otherwise we're gonna jump into the q&a want to say folks if you happen to have a question feel free to fire it into the old live chat if you at me namely at modern day debate in the live chat that's one way to ask a question and we frankly don't have very many questions so it's a great opportunity to fire them in the old live chat and we can read them but any last thoughts from anybody else before we do that i do wouldn't want to say one thing um i appreciate the exchange and i tried to try to contribute to it with some of my questions a little bit here and there but i i just have to say cherry i know that um you know when you you described some men as mediocre well i felt like i didn't like that as a man um i do like the idea of people in society being more eager more comfortable saying uh you know hey you suck do better and in that sense um i hope that we can get to a point in society where we are prepared to call uh both men and women mediocre uh if they are not performing as well as they should because i yeah i i only didn't like it because i felt like it wasn't widely enough used so it's probably the experience of a lot of women going into the workforce that they aren't good enough that they don't compare it to a man and you got passed over for the job because you're kind of mediocre compared to this guy so it hurts it doesn't feel good um and i imagine it didn't for the women in those careers either any last thoughts otherwise we're going to jump right into this q and a this one yeah actually sorry sorry gonna be little gonna kind of hammer this home a little bit so if i if i was to summarize this conversation listen there there's a lot of things that we actually don't disagree on like for instance if you're like we want to create actual equality of opportunity we want to minimize the way in the which the system forces women to be wives and mothers and they don't feel like they have a choice between their career and having kids uh we want to make sure that fathers or men who want the opportunity to stay home with their kids have the economic and social support services in order to be able to do so so they're not forced into a gendered role that they feel like they're boxed into i'm okay with all this shit honestly like if my wife was like hey honey i'm making 100 grand a year you fucking go stay home and play with the kids i'm doing that shit in the heartbeat i just think that what's what's happening not necessarily on this panel but what's happening in general is people use disparity and outcome as an excuse to say that there's discrimination and i think that there are some variables in here that are so complex and so uh basically detrimental to the variables that we're talking about that we will never achieve the society that the equity people want us to achieve so y'all y'all want equity or quality of opportunity not equity i'm fucking down um if you want equity and you're in the chat you can eat a bowl of dicks and uh yeah i'll leave it there you got it i think uh i guess i guess what i would say is when when it comes to stuff like this like again i'm not somebody who is denying biology right there's just like going to be inherent um uh areas where um uh even even just gender um uh there are going to be areas where men gravitate where women gravitate uh women uh have pregnancy pregnancy is something it's just a biological reality you know i'm not trying to deny that if anything i think that we have to acknowledge the biological realities um to uh achieve more equality of opportunity um uh i think um i just think that there are ways in which we can advocate uh for um women to be able to have more mobility in the workplace and and be punched less for raising children um uh so that people can live healthy and happy lives and we can have healthy and happy families um and really uh you know what i'm aiming for is you know uh is is really pro you know family stuff really at the end of the day so you got it anybody else i hope that we uh in in the ages to come do give some thought to technological solutions to some of these issues artificial wombs for example um you know as as technology advances uh perhaps we will find ways to circumvent some of our social problems through more scientific scientific approaches so keep them in mind folks they've done it with lambs soon enough they should be able to do it with people you got it any last thoughts otherwise want to say i just i'm sorry i just want to say i love you start i'm sorry i'm just snark on here oh no it's fine i didn't take it in you for uh take it up personally hopefully hopefully you didn't take anything i said personally either so star deserves it and nobody feels sorry for but with that we're going to go into the key with it just a moment i want to say we appreciate all of our guests they're linked in the description folks so if you'd like to hear more you've been exposed to their views you can learn more about their views by clicking on their links in the description box right now and that includes at the modern day debate podcast as all of our debates and panels end up on the modern day debate podcast where our guests are linked there as well in the description box for the podcast episode with that thanks very much for your questions we're going to jump right into it with malavia thanks for coming by says hi james hi stardust and glad to see the rest of you glad to have you malavia and we're looking for substantive questions so i'll at least this one really isn't but i'm gonna i'm gonna at least read one they say a war on women is the silliest flatter but we're also looking for substantive questions for the q and a folks this one from sunflowers says the nature of all female mammals is to nurture and closing guard closely guard their offsprings why is human why are human women doing this suddenly why okay why is human women Jesus what how badly we're fucking written is this question i like to say the person who wrote that comment should be thankful that we no longer live by the rules of nature because by judging by their grammar they clearly wouldn't cut it the second part was my fault they say uh women evolved to leave the workforce after giving birth it women evolved to leave the workforce how insane is that comment human civilization is not the product of evolution it is fortunately a deviation from evolution and to say that we are have evolved to make that the fucking next topic Jesus what are what is the evolution i would like to ask this person that with the super chat what is the uh why why do we have why do post menopausal women even exist they should just die after they go through menopause well back in the day they did they they well clearly women live longer than men do so i mean like i don't know yeah because we work i don't i don't think i don't know about that it's because you guys take a lot more dumb risk maybe i do i i do want to say that i certainly wouldn't attack anybody if i thought their question was phrased that way because english is their second language i'm only attacking people because it sounded to me like they were engaging in the naturalistic fallacy that things which are natural and racist well like i mean obviously like i remember i heard a philosopher once he was arguing with some religious theologian he basically said you know what makes what makes us so special the question was what makes us so special if there's no god to which the philosopher said well i mean there's a lot of things that obviously make humans unique and special relative to other animals right i mean of course that's the case so you know you asked the question right why would why would you know human women want to not necessarily nurture their children or or want to work outside the sort of naturalistic gender paradigm well i mean it's for a lot of reasons right we're allowed to contemplate those things that we're able to because we're humans you know we have that ability so it sounds like a bunch of post post modern post biological bullshit to me but okay and marxist post modern neo marxist clean your room buddy okay this one from bubble yes says bra how is repealing the 19th a war on women look all that would do is end women's suffrage you know and if if you believe in the suffering of women then what the fuck i mean i only giggle because warren did go ahead anybody else who had a response no no that's nothing he kind of boy hit it out of the park this one coming in from melody kate thanks so much says it seems that women are truly hated by so many people on the debate and in the chat we deserve to be who we want to be as a tech person i promise there is discrimination no i mean it is absolutely true that there is you know i tried to ask some questions and get other things but i mean spending uh you know i guess the first two or three of these online debates i did when i started doing this stuff it becomes obvious that women just get talked over more and men are quicker to talk over them like that there is definitely an element of sexism i'm not saying anybody did that in particular here or anything but i think that that's like it's obvious that those are real and abiding factors in society the reason i was asking some of the questions i was asking is i mean it does you know the the question really is should the state do anything about that or should we as individuals just be more mindful of things and to me i guess that's kind of the most interesting point is what do we think the government should do because that's when we start saying okay well i'm going to reach my hand a little deeper into your pocket or change your life or you send the police out for x y or z a little more often or something which is why i think that's a point to to focus on instead but that's absolutely true anybody else counter like i'm on board with what warren said an arco communist uh commune's raising of children i'm on board with that bastia said it first i second it okay now he goes by war now please use his correct name you can call anything you want just don't call me late for dinner i like that i'm on a kind of a boomer jokes so the no so human human beings while amazing are not separate from fucking nature the it's like the height of fucking arrogance to believe that we're separate from nature or biology absolutely like like you can engineer against human nature but the best engineering of like human beings is oftentimes working with nature like cavlovian response and training and like food reinforcement and positive reinforcement and negative reinforcement these are all things that are rooted in nature so to pretend like we can just engineer past our own desires or engineer past what's good for the species it's post human bullshit uh fuck no i mean don't you think that eventually it would be possible i mean in some ways already is possible yeah sure if you want to create the terminator fucking movies and you want to have like uh the matrix and post humans fighting fucking classic humans yeah sure if you want to go that far go that far i'm more of like a crisper gene editor peak humanity kind of person i don't like the fucking robot shit so this one coming in from do appreciate your question oliver b peres says how do you think this debate will age in the far future with the singularity around well obviously i'm the one that talked about artificial wombs being the way to resolve questions of pregnancy and perhaps abortion as well so i mean i guess in that sense i've taken the most future friendly of takes that the only way to really solve this stuff long term you know we can get closer to it with policy but the only way to really address it long term is to transcend our limited human meat forms i'm tired of my meat body i can't wait till i have a metal body exactly all humans should be born in a tube me more than anybody artificial wombs i'm all for that you got it and thank you very much this one coming in from just a moment page is loading but want to remind you folks our deser linked in the description if you have not checked out their links already now is a great time and you might also you can have more than one tab open you might you can open it right now and then you can watch later right after the debate gets done sunflower says warren the workforce quote unquote in the evolutionary context would just be whatever the heck women were doing before they got pregnant so didn't women evolve to become full-time moms after giving birth i mean i i guess it just seems to me to be a little like it sort of it sort of blows up the meaning of what the workforce is is if the workforce is just anything we're doing just outside of pregnancy i mean ultimately what we're talking about is like you can you can you can talk about you can talk like that i guess at a very simple level like you're talking about a very i guess rural life where we really are still just like very directly connected to the land and there's only so much than a human being can do but i mean it's like the way that the soviets tried to do central planning not just at the base level of economic development but while the economy got far and away more complex they still tried to use the same analysis we can plan everything we can figure everything out in advance and run the economy according similarly to say that evolution has some real bearing on the kind of complex economic structures that we have assembled here in the 200 years since the you know industrial revolution kicked off it just i think it's a connection that really does not bear that really just has long ago outrun the the the value of what evolution and talk about evolution can take us to you got to this one coming in nice try those sunflower i see in the chat and i think it's pretty fun they're gunning for you bend well done with declining birth rates is encouraging women worth the collapse of soycyity bro well i got actually i didn't yeah sorry i got going james sorry i was just gonna no i was gonna say that you know a lot of people take this position i think it's fairly odd position that you know we need to curtail people's freedoms because of a lowering of the birth rate i think that we would to some extent right we would agree that lowering birth rates and depopulation presents unique societal and economic problems but i mean i i'm not sure if the justification for an authoritarian either culture or government is is in the depopulation problem certainly not in my opinion yeah actually sorry go ahead yeah go ahead i was gonna say yeah i don't i don't like uh as much as i've kind of half meaningly been sexist and rude and shitty on this panel or whatever um i actually don't like that conservative instincts are too like fuck individual freedom we just need to come up with this weird authoritarian fucking trad con christian empire in order to rebuild whatever america was i think that's bullshit i think what you need to do if you're one of those people who thinks that society is collapsing is i think you need to go talk to human beings that are outside i think you need to develop real relationships with people i think you need to have two kids with a significant other that you actually give a shit about i think you need to pay your taxes learn how to fight learn how to shoot learn how to cook and be a decent fucking human being and i think all of those steps all of the things that you will learn in those steps one they will alleviate your anxiety about society collapsing and two you will actually stop society from collapsing a little bit by engaging in those behaviors instead of shitposting on the fucking internet about how fucking black ariel is a sign that the jews are slowly taking over our society like you know chill the fuck out go touchcraft or oh i'm sorry go ahead sure i was just gonna say another strategy is do it in canada become a millionaire and put your seed in as many women as you possibly can another option genghis kahn approach black nationalism is worth remembering too the declining birth rates essentially by the way yeah i mean i'm i'm not yeah yeah consensual black nationalism but the the the idea of like declining birth rates as a like you know i think there's this tendency sometimes unfortunately to look at demography for one reason or another and conclude well because it looks like this is the way it's going to be for the next 20 years is the way it's going to be forever but the fact is none of us really knows what the future will be like all that far in the future and the same way that nobody you know 50 years ago really predicted crashing birth rates it is possible as our societies continue to develop in advance that people will find new reasons they want to have children or things like that so i think the idea that some people raise that you know in 500 or a thousand years nobody's going to be left alive in japan well that is quite a prediction really does suggest that nothing will change in the next 500 with thousand years you know and that's just not the kind of thing you base authoritarian measures on it's just ridiculous you go ahead i'm sorry i just want to say really quickly i'll be quick i promise i think declining birth rates are a problem and the way we fix that is to increase wages so it's more economically like feasible to have children and i think that it causes a problem because you have to care for all the elderly the social security issue i mean all these issues like you could say oh well climate change is up i think we need to have like a steady birth rate and it declining can cause problems down the line that's all i have to say but but wages seem to be inversely correlated with birth rates as people get richer they have fewer kids and it seems like if anything we should be cutting the standard living if we really want people to have more kids taking their condoms away anywhere where that that violates that rule it seems that every country cross cultures cross religions as people get richer have better income they have fewer kids listen boss yeah we're just trying to get fucking paid okay chill the fuck out hey i mean also try to keep the wages down with your studies we have to acknowledge though also that like over over time um uh mortality rate uh you know birthing you know mortality rate has gone down and um the amount of uh children that died just growing up also has gone down significantly it's much safer to have a child now than it ever has been um and so people can afford to have less children because those children aren't dying so you know there's that as well do you got it this one coming in from do appreciate your question one samir for saying thanks so much appreciate it said combining the last two modern day debate topics who would lose if the majority of men decide to do away with marriage and relationships become pure transactions b y o food life um i actually don't know how to answer that question but i think that one of the things that men need to understand is that relationships are transactional but that doesn't mean that that's all that they are so it should be a reciprocal relationship you should be giving something to the woman which is your time attention affection money and all that kind of stuff and she should be giving stuff to you which is her time her attention her affection and all that kind of stuff and if you negotiated in the positive relationship then y'all should come up with the roles and responsibilities in a like a long-term relationship and negotiate responsibilities when it comes to children um my wife and i we constantly negotiate our lives because the truth is that responsibilities and logistics change having somebody that you can communicate with a partner is a huge part of it and also just because somebody is taking something from you or you are giving something to somebody doesn't mean that that relationship can't be imbued with a like a bigger level of depth um so i think the m r a red pill fucking dudes like they stopped at the first level of analysis which is women want shit from you and they could move to the next level of analysis which is women want shit from you what do you have to offer and and you guys create a symbiotic relationship that benefits both parties and uh yeah that's what i'd have to say about that you got it and this one coming in from niki sorry i missed it niki says why do you guys swear so much counter points this is just me it says makes your makes your points look bad just saying like now it's a marine all right that's how yeah that's actually yeah one that's classist two that's ablest uh three uh i'm a marine or former marine i did four years in the marine corps i did four years in law enforcement i saw a bunch of fucked up shit and i wanted to say a bunch of stuff and i had to hold my tongue i don't hold my tongue anymore and it's fun and people pay me money to do it weirdly juicy i used to curse way more actually until my mom watched one of my debates and she's like you have to stop using those four letter words and i was like okay so my mom it's it's it's not my mom's fault she did wash my mouth out with soap it just didn't work thanks for serving by the way and yeah amen also want to say yeah that's something we rarely say it but anybody in chat if you've ever served anybody watching thank you for serving and also want to say our guest or link in the description that includes counterpoints plus rose plus warren plus stardust and cherry and icono boy also oh i did want to say this is something that's encouraging there are just a few more questions bear with me but i want to say i was encouraged by this we did a poll earlier and that it was like very well distributed so not only are there conservatives like nicky which thanks for that uh that uh chat nicky but also there are people who lean to the left there are people who are in the middle and it was very evenly slit which is encouraging because we really do we hope you feel welcome on our day to date whether you be politically left politically politically right bernie bro biden backer trump supporter you name it we're glad you're here this one from pimple pimple adan says ask is there a war on women in the sense that now women are expected or forced to work in a relationship in shun motherhood because it takes more than one income to survive yeah if you if you want to flip it and basically say that there's a cultural pressure for women to do it all and to have it all um i would say yeah and also on top of that like i'm not trying to get all conspiratorial but i do think that it's a little messed up that like we kind of reached an eat a balance of economics in like the 1950s and 60s where families could survive provide a good quality of living and basically take care of their families on a single income and women could choose to work if they felt like it but nowadays it's literally like the the only reason why my wife isn't working right now is because i basically doubled my income within a couple of years if i hadn't done that both of us would be working full time with the child uh and potentially with the second child so um yeah it's a fucking nightmare out there well you know it's both recognizing there are a couple things about that i suppose one that people's interest in consumption their ability to consume has gone up a lot and i think a lot of people don't really want to give up that consumption even if they might say i'm not saying this is you kind of but even though they might say well you know i wish we didn't have to work so much but also i don't want to give my vacations i don't want to give up other parts of my you know modern standard of living i do think that's one element another element that is also worth recognizing is that the cost of housing healthcare and education has gone up considerably in that time much farther than it was in the past primarily i would argue for reasons of regulation and government restrictions but especially with you know respect to housing but that ultimately what about uh what about stagnating okay what about stagnating and the cost of some fundamentals has gone up uh and and and what about stagnating wages and the replacement of wages with crata and what about the elimination of benefits from the workplace yeah i don't i don't i don't uh i don't agree with the idea that wages have been say stagnant since 1970 because the problem seems to be actually the total compensation has continued to grow up but the cost of providing those benefits has continued to climb as well in part because of america's dysfunctional system of quasi private quasi public health care that has resulted in the highest cost for health care in the world even though it produces outcomes that are at least among developed countries what we might call mid or mediocre so i mean there's a lot that's really eating into what is otherwise an increasing pool of total compensation corporations are doing great work on that but it's just being wasted because of the way that we in this country choose to do regulation of housing for example zoning restrictions any of you who've ever tried to stop the construction of a new housing development are to blame for the fact in part to blame for the fact that it's so expensive to uh to to pay rent now um so it's these are problems that are just kind of unfortunately complex because on the one hand a lot of us want these benefits we want these protections we don't want big buildings to come we don't want big new apartment buildings to come into our neighborhoods some of us you know at the same time if you can't build new houses easily and cheaply well what you get is less supply and that means that what you've got costs all that much more so i think connor's point is very well taken it's just that it's unfortunately the reflection of a lot of preferences that people in a democratic society have said they want okay so to circle that back to like women and making it about if there's a war on them and this idea that yeah you don't really have a a way to just be a stay at home mom i think like the child tax credit is fairly new and for me i think that it is a war because i think a lot of our female role models they're not stay at home moms you don't know about stay at home moms unless like you're in the pta meetings or you're at the school board meetings or you're looking at your own mother or grandmother apart from those role models what you tend to see are like really accomplished career driven women and you see them celebrating each other and you feel left out in that conversation like hillary clinton recently talking to meg in the meg the stallion saying that wop was just like inspirational for for feminist drive i don't think that speaks to everybody and so it can feel like there's a war on you when the only um the women that are highlighted are not the women that you strive to be or the women that maybe you have the personality to strive to be you got this question coming in from joe c says ask how the panelists think that we can pay for the decrease in hours worked along with higher wage and at the same time having more immigration yeah like economy this was actually one of my questions when you were talking or whatever it's like i basically just assumed mmt like as soon as you started being like oh yeah we can compensate people for you know their their labor at home and we can increase wages and we can do these projects and not you were saying this but everybody else was like yeah and we can make the the workplace a better place to be based off of these modifications to our work culture and all that kind of shit and i'm just thinking to myself it's like who the fuck is going to pay for all this like obviously like we can raise taxes we can change shit but basically it sounds like fucking mmt to me there there are books written on getting ready for the hour work week people are working on this also just so you know uh economy boy is like very uh anti-mmt just so you know well to some extent i was just gonna say that um yeah i mean it's a good question i mean i i think that um there's a lot of structures for other societies that i think that america should adopt i mean i think that one thing that um gets kind of missed in the american discussion for like how to pay for things and benefits and stuff like that is pre-distribution right so like how do we how do we ensure a more equitable workplace in the first place and and then one of those things is unions right we need to have more policies that encourage unionization and uh sort of worker democratic structures so that they have a say in their workplace so that they get better benefits and better working hours similar stuff to what sherry was talking about but just on the private sort of market side um and then when we talk about things like you know cash benefits to people and stuff like that how do we pay for them well you know obviously it's some combination of taxes and deficit spending if it's a good investment deficit spending is fine if it's not then you probably want to fund it with taxes but i mean you know the the idea that you know the us doesn't have the tax capacity to fund many of the programs that would be so advantageous in terms of like childhood poverty rates educational attainment rates you know well you know women women's uh occupational outcomes is really not true i mean if you look at like one metric you can look at is like tax revenue as a percentage of gdp so like how much taxes does the us take out of the economy and redistribute to you know other sort of i guess democratic priorities like small d democratic government priorities um it's actually relatively small compared to other you know like western european and norther countries and those are countries with much lower levels of income inequality and much lower levels of childhood poverty and you know i would hope that we would say that as americans we're the best country in the world and of course we can achieve those levels of of of equitability and and and low levels of poverty uh it's it's just a matter of having the policy will to do it you got this one coming in from short let me know if i pronounce this right it's the uh otaku otak yeah short fat otaku fat otaku dev as he's known thank you very much for being with us it says i watch literally everybody on this panel lol amazing tell them hello from your favorite fat man please i'm mad man hello amazing hello i'll be your turn back this one coming in from do appreciate it claire says there was a lot of talk about women in careers but what is everyone's view on women in sports is there a war on women in sports yeah um i who i mean i don't like women in sports i'm not gonna band off twitch so you guys can talk about this yeah i would switch for talking about this no you can't i think she's being a little bashful i was just gonna say that with regard to women in sports you i i think yeah sure i think that there's a lot of they'll go out they'll cancel you economy you know it's i don't know i i don't know who the day is you're you're talking about you could be right i'm not sure who what you're referencing it i was just gonna say with regards to women it's the irish with regards to women in sports though um you know i don't know i i think that it's it's unfortunate more people aren't interested enough to to watch women in sports it seems like the same conservatives that say that we want to we want to defend women's sports well i don't ever see you at a wmba game so i don't know what the fuck you're talking about and so right you know i i like women's sports and i like things like title nine i'm not sure because there is actually a lot of policy that that does try to make women's sports actually equal so i don't know if there's quite as much war on on women's sports as as women in general they said p4gy and chat said this is how steven got banned from twitch for what this topic because when they're talking about when they're talking about women's sports and the chance they are talking about trans uh oh yeah well this isn't a matter of rounding error in terms of the overall picture of women's sports isn't it and whatever yeah trans trans women competing in the women's category does not represent a war on women's sports in any sense of the word yeah i think the real problem is that we've got publicly funded sports programs whatsoever just do that on your own time pay for it with your own dime yeah fucking sports says that's un-american if i've ever heard it okay some games are more virtuous than others why don't we just pay gamers to game then screw that no because it makes better human beings you son of a bitch sports which are specifically geared at getting people ready for military service otherwise the national interest is not there all right i'm back on board you don't care about badminton well you know i mean i think badminton is great i just don't want to pay for somebody else's game of badminton that's all i think the problem is that people don't people don't watch women's sports as much as men's sports so if you're gonna blame anyone play the public like if they don't pay as much because you don't get paid as much to host them because there's not enough interest i saw somebody on the last um i'm not sure if you've done one of these since james but another debate uh about a war on women um there was a fella in a suit who said that he watched women's sports however his reasons seemed much less wholesome so perhaps there's also you're talking about i didn't like that alex yeah there's perhaps an issue of discrimination there too in terms of in terms of just the way people uh you know people treat it like it's not serious but i mean at the end of the day it's just as serious as men's sports which is to say you're into it you're not but the idea that it's somehow lesser or something i just don't think any of it should be funded by the state if i understand right i think you might be referring to the last panel that we had that was but with alex it's basically boiled down to an alex and poly debate which by the way i want to announce a couple of things one we have a lot of people said hey we really wanted a more serious discussion as it became kind of sidetracked i have reached out to two individual speakers that i think would take that topic very seriously and respectfully i've already heard back from one so these are people on the panel who oppose each other and so we are working on that if you felt like that panel was a let down in the sense of you were looking for a more meaningful respectful dialogue i think that we're going to have that as i'm i think the other person is going to agree to it too i'll let you know but keep an eye out for that as i know there were as a one of our most least positively received panels in a while so nothing against any of the speakers i'm not trying to it was like i said it was no names given andrew smith thanks for your question says question for stardust if you had to estimate how large would you say a whale snake early is it you got him going in the chat stardust uh wow thank you for the question um i've been i've been waiting for this my entire life um so uh if i had to estimate how large a whale snake would be um it would be probably if you're crossing a whale on a snake you can probably assume that it's going to be because their parents are a whale on a snake it's probably going to be somewhere between those sizes so that's all i could really say that's plausible and yes that's uh start us buddy infrared but yeah i can tell you but i've got to tell you start us like have you ever heard from you know nick like you remember that panel like uh which uh are you talking about as he asked you out there was a certain someone that had a crush on you stardust and i'm curious i think that's a joke i'm pretty sure that's a joke so i don't think it's a joke i don't think so yeah i don't think so either we vote in the panel not a joke i not not only do i vote for it not a joke also you could single-handedly save america by taking one for the fucking team okay no i already i think he should be offended that he's i already spoke with nick on that very panel and i told him on that panel if you guys remember that i am now taking the crown of savior the white race from him he no longer has that crown and he didn't fight me on it he said that he he basically let me take it so i will let you all know i am the savior of the white race i currently hold that crown nick does not have it anymore um and he did not fight me on on taking back the crown so this is the last one judo v ebbon says for whoever could the modern war on men be compared to the worship never mind of that gave says for warren do you have resources or book recommendations for naturalistic aka selfish gene by richard dockins versus deviation from evolution oh no i let me say something to put a pin on that i shouldn't write off evolution or biological basis completely however the reason i'm so hostile to that is that it seems like it is often used as a way to kind of get past the 6000 or so years of civilizational development that we have engaged in as a species and which have a lot more bearing i think on our modern circumstances then perhaps this romanticized idea of what the distant past was like when we were hunters and gatherers and all the rest but natural nature certainly has a role but i think often it is raised in debates about subjects like these for the purpose of trying to do an end run around nurture which is ultimately much more personal much more likely to affect our lives comes down to issues that you know for example i was agreeing earlier that some of what economy boy and sherry were proposing would work but i was saying well maybe i just don't want to pay for it well that's a pretty big dispute you can do an end run to round that however and just say well you know none of it makes a difference because we're just born the way we are and that's the rest of it but ultimately i think that's usually more a way to get around get away from answering hard questions than it is a serious argument you got it and we want to say folks our gas or linked in the description what are you waiting for we are at the end of the debate this is a great opportunity to click on their links right now otherwise you can click on their link open the tab keep it open i'll be back in just a moment with a post credit scene to let you know about upcoming debates and panels so stick around for that but one last thank you it's been a true pleasure economy boy warren rose cherry counterpoints and stardust thank you for being with us thanks folks it was a lot of fun i really enjoyed this this was fun catch y'all thanks folks and i'll be best wishes to everybody best wishes indeed i'll be back in just a moment folks so stick around thanks guys please and my dear friends let me just squeeze this down a little bit how embarrassing i've got to say thanks so much for being with us it has been a fun one we hope you feel welcome no matter what walk of life you are from and i've got to tell you my dear friends it was a fun one our guests are linked in the description the guests are the life blood of the channel my dear friends if you haven't yet it's a great opportunity to click on their links right now want to say in addition to that we have some amazing news about upcoming debates in particular let me tell you about some of the ones we're talking about right now as i mentioned we are working on a panel that will kind of well actually a one-on-one debate that will kind of maybe you could say correct for the train wreck during our last panel as a lot of people were like hey i was looking for a little bit more meaningful discussion that's a trick i can't please everybody i mean we're going to try to give everybody what they want that's really true like i do try to choose topics and people that people most enjoy on average and a lot of people to be honest actually to be fair actually enjoyed that debate so i've got to say it wasn't like it was i wouldn't say it was bad but i know that sometimes people like different or variety and that's something that we can do here at modern day debate if you are new want to let you know what our vision is we want to provide a neutral platform so that everybody can make their case on a level playing field that's our vision that's what we're determined to do because we believe that youtube deserves a better class of debate channel and we're going to give it to him want to say thank you so much for all of your support jeremy nolan i see you there in the old live chat jeremy nolan thanks for coming by says thanks james or thank you brother so much much love appreciate that jeremy theological introspection thanks for coming by says james is the beating heart i appreciate that i don't know what you mean but i like it dr long monkey thanks for coming by says i don't like the boring panels the last one was great well there there you have it some people enjoy when it goes you know they call it controlled chaos sometimes you know the train doesn't go completely off the tracks it just kind of wobbles and sometimes that's fun i think that's true but we also know that sometimes people also they want for riding we can work on that people in that case they uh say we also want a sincere dialogue on that so we'll see if i hear back as one person has already said that yep they'd be up for it and in particular nicky thanks for coming by i see you there in the old live chat says this is wild cleared my head so i can think i'm so glad to hear that nicky that's encouraging and amanda thanks for coming by says amazing and thanks for your support amanda amanda has been helping us i hate putting you on the spot in the live chat but amanda is a very kind person who has been helping scout who has been literally driving to places in dallas to find help us find because i'm not i don't live in dallas i'm in colorado to help us find a great venue for our upcoming conference which we were probably going to push it from october to november just to heads up on that it's it's still being confirmed but highly likely and amanda has been helping a ton with that so thanks for volunteering volunteering your time amanda it really does mean a lot seriously and like yeah seriously i i just appreciate it so i am encouraged and excited that i think our panel or i should say our conference is gonna be amazing if you have not yet hit that subscribe button as we have many more juicy debates and panels coming up whoa i just noticed that the overlay on screen is from a recent controversial debate that was another one that some people were pissed about but i've got to tell you guys let's see a couple of things in terms of people being pissed we don't try to make people pissed sometimes people are pissed i've got to say you know like it's whether it be people in live chat not all but sometimes people in live chat can piss you off sometimes i'll piss you off again on accident and then sometimes maybe a speaker will piss you off i've got to say you know don't ask for a light load ask for a strong back in life some people might think that's corny or like oh no that's not true that's exaggerating or i've got to tell you that really is a great in psychology would call it a cognitive reappraisal and the research is very clear how you look at things in life especially it's ironic because a lot of people who are like oh subjective truth there's no real truth will then turn around and say that if you say something they'll say oh that's objectively wrong you know and but my point and i'm not saying that all subjectivists do that so to be fair i don't want to say that all do but some do and so a lot of times people will say oh you know truth is relative but then you say okay great well then i would you know i think we should all adopt this attitude of this view that you know what doesn't kill us makes us stronger it will make us you know in this case if if we run into things we find offensive on the internet we're going to learn how to cope with things that we maybe feel uncomfortable about we'll learn to say hey i'm going to let it be water that rolls off the duck's back i'm not going to let it bother me we make that choice and we choose to kind of see it as hey this is an opportunity for me to work on my patients or it's a opportunity for me to work on my self control by not lashing out and telling someone to shut up that according to the psychological literature those types of cognitive reappraisals and it's just a fancy way of saying changing the way you think about something so you could say you for example see the silver lining in it is very healthy it's very good for you it's a component of cognitive behavioral therapy which is a like a very effective form therapy and so i've got to say so much of life is about how you look at it it really is because a lot of people i feel like a lot of times like i said not all not all not all but a lot of people will say oh like life is you know it's just truth is relative and then you say well okay great well then like let's try to think about this in a positive way rather than a negative way and they'll be like no like you know it really is bad you know and to try to frame it positively it's injustice and it's wrong and and it's like okay well now you sound a lot like a an objectivist about truth but the point is it's not that i would say that we should think that certain things that are bad such as for example injustice in the world are good in order to have like rose cover rose colored glasses to make ourselves feel better that's not what i'm saying i'm saying but there are a lot of things out there that are going to irritate you they're going to be things that you're like i'm a little bit annoyed by that i'm offended by this person telling me i'm wrong and i'm an idiot and i would say i don't recommend that people call people idiots but sometimes people are going to call us idiots believe me i get plenty of it but like surprisingly and i don't complain because 99.9% of people at modern day debate are positive and they're super supportive so i want to say that i'm thankful for that but i do i still have that 0.1% that sometimes emails me or whatever it might be or in the chat we'll say you know try to very you know kind of like the smug the one smug thing is i see today that i'm like i see it and people say it and i'm like that's good luck with that is they say do better be better you know they'll they'll give you their moral opinion on how you're out of bounds and then we'll say be better do better and i'm like say all you want i don't it doesn't bother me but i i see that and i'm like nobody's gonna take you serious though when you come off as that patronizing or smug like you're above them but hey as long as like i said you say hey i'm not gonna let it bother me let it just be water off the duck's back t-bone thanks for coming by as well as all over be Perez glad to have you here as well as Russell Gibson good to see you doctor long monkey thanks for coming by as well as i see there in the old live chat nicky thanks for coming by question the answers happy to have you and rose mullet thanks for coming by as i'll try to speak more next time thanks rose for being with us and don't be afraid rose i know that you're a kind i suspect you're an agreeable type of person which is a good thing at the same time like don't be afraid to like you know push yourself in there sometimes like i can tell you this when i'm in a debate i never let people cut me off like i will call them out and if they cut me off and i'm a pretty agreeable person but for me i'm like it's one of my pet peas where i just like if i'm in a debate i will say to the person like if they cut me off i'll say hold on a second i'm not done and i'll start like speaking loudly because i i'm not gonna let it like i don't like that but which amazes me that sometimes like people but it's just you know different personalities but you know we have to we have to push ourselves because there are other cases in debates where you know i probably could be more this way or that way but anyway rose mullet thanks for for being with us and uh don't be i just yeah don't be bashful about pushing yourself into the conversation sometimes because i sense you're very agreeable and for agreeable people that can be tough and tusby dox thanks for being with us thanks for your support of the channel says you need to bust out the pink shirt more often buddy it really suits you i appreciate that like i said i i like the color pink i think it looks cool and i i just yeah i don't like i don't it's just it's so arbitrary like there's nothing in my mind like intuitively that links any color with any gender so i'm just like i care i don't care what people think if they think it's a boy color or a girl color i just like it jg day let thanks for coming by as well as p for g y thanks for coming by this is good debate session dude thank you thanks to all of the guests they are the life blood of the channel we appreciate them recital now thanks for coming by i see they're in the old live chat as well as thanks for dropping in rustle Gibson good to see you melody kate thanks so much for being with us and eric w thanks for coming by as well as tus says how is your thesis going my it's now it's the dissertation it's that far along is it's going well in the sense that it's you know i'm like frankly the wheels are turning slowly but it's okay i'm gonna get i've just got a lot of my plate but thanks for coming by way as three says moderate debate welcomes everybody even the soy boys that's true if you are a soy boy or a soy you know what i found out did i ever tell you guys that youtube like they're really they're pretty big on like i can't say the c u well i won't even spell it out c u q i can't say that word mod youtube is actually pretty like they're pretty strict on that because last i think last time i brought it up i told you we're taking it back and you know we're saying we're taking it we're making it ours so it's not a slur it never really was a slur to start it was only just a really effective insult that someone people started saying was a slur in order to like not let the effective insult be there anymore but thanks for coming by amanda says thanks everyone modern database legendary thanks amanda for your support and tus beat box says uh oh yeah we got that one and then silver ricks thanks for your channel support says not all not all not all not all but most is amazing agree blueberry more says what is the mission statement of the channel the mission statement is this in particular we want to provide a neutral platform so that everybody can make their case on a level playing field as they debate and we plan on doing it by carrying out our values of one giving everybody a fair shot such as equal time in the debate as well as the moderator never taking sides to kind of gang up on one of the guests and by enforcing the idea not only a fairness but that everybody can make their case be able to say what they want other than what's outside of youtube terms of service because we don't want to cut off the branch that we're sitting on because youtube helps us grow a ton so we do follow the rules but we want to other than that let people say whatever they want and we do play if you haven't been offended yet stick around it will happen it ain't your grandma's channel as we say but also last but not least that competition will allow the best ideas to win out namely the cream will rise to the top as we let a thousand flowers bloom as we let the chips fall where they may the best ideas will win out and want to say thanks for being with us timothy p southwick glad you came by some year good to see you there i see you there in the little live chat and let's see here swampy pubes i see you good to see you again nasty guy thanks for your kind words though says another great debate james have a good night thanks for that support that means a lot as well as rose malat yeah but we're rose yeah good job you you did you did jump in so don't worry like we got to hear you and so i was uh but yeah we're we're glad you're here and thanks for participating tonight and character 57 says james i remember you said that before it's about how you look at it when someone is rude to you like maybe they didn't mean it that way now james they said what they said and they meant it yeah i mean that's one thing too you can actually do to kind of make it where you're you could say you're like less impacted by it as you just say well maybe they had a hard day as the research shows that if you refrain from making what's called the fundamental attribution error and you don't think oh man they must personally hate me or something and you just think like oh they probably just had a bad day or maybe they're trying to tell me what to do because they don't feel like they have a lot of control in their own lives whatever it is is if you kind of recognize that they have stuff going on in their lives too and you don't have to take it personally that seems to help people and the research actually shows that for real no joke that they've actually like tested that bestie thanks for coming by says rest in peace joe rogan that's good yeah i know joe didn't die but i i just we we hope you doing well anyway inception says james i want your channel to bloom but it seems weird to hold so many debates on flat earth or the existence of dinosaurs you should have more serious debates that's a one opinion i i appreciate that and i know you mean well but i've got to tell you in terms of channel growth those debates actually bring in a lot of new people not all of them like what are they called political debates so some of them are here right now so i see some of the people in chat right now are potentially people that learned about modern day debate by seeing a a flat earth debate on the channel so i know that those seem like you think like oh maybe modern day debate would be taken more seriously if they didn't have that it's like i don't know they actually you might think like well maybe some guests won't come on because they see that like big name people and like i don't know i'm not sure if that's true we've had some big name people on i've never had anybody tell me that they didn't want to come on because of that reason and also the other thing is when you look at the metrics in the creator studio those actually bring in a lot of new subs like they usually are big big time like uh you could say they bring in it because i can see on the creator studio how many video or how many new subscribers we have from a given video and those do pretty well let's see arcade outpost i don't know if it's they're giving me the business in the chat or somebody else but we're glad you're here if you're you seem whatever uh whoever you're given the business there i uh we're glad that we appreciate your passion this one from anon at home this haze introduced me to this channel and like and he likes debating against dinosaurs is this thing and i love flat earth debates that's funny but that's uh i want to say that's funny t-bone says haze introduced me to this too that's funny well yeah i was just thinking we haven't had haze on we had we haven't had haze and jackson on for a while so i'm going to try to set up a tag team with them because that's uh there have been some juicy ones with them we want to say thank you guys so much for your support if you have not yet you can share this debate if you haven't had friends who might enjoy controversial topics hey great opportunity you can share this debate right now that helps modern day debate grow and if you haven't yet we are on podcast you believe me i mean look the graphic right there it says it modern day debate on there's the word on and then youtube and podcast so we are on youtube and podcast and if you have not checked that out we are on podcast have you checked it out yet if you have checked it out one way that you might be able to help the podcast is if you give it a rating for real that really does help and timmy the p southwick says god bless you and everyone my friend please keep being amazing y'all out there as well as my beautiful friends and y'all sillies and others out there love you all thanks for that we'll end on that kind of note we love that we appreciate that thanks for something coming by and then arcade outpost says i meant the messages i sent yes i am behind an email arcade outpost and i apologize it's nothing personal it's just honestly it's really hard to keep up with everything because right now i'm just juggling a lot of balls like working on my phd is usually enough to where i'm like freaking burnt out i am i'm really i don't know it's hard guys like modern day debate i do try to put a lot of time into it because i love it but the the truth is it's just sometimes i am behind on the email so please don't take it personally i will work on trying to catch up on emails and kiwi in springfield thanks for coming by says there's only one war and it's between me and modern day debate that's true i saw kiwi in springfield it was bouncing off a pogo stick the other day nasty guy but samir farstein says james i don't know if you've ever had a pro anti g un debate that should be juicy that might work i'm open to that it could be a fun one but want to say thank you guys for all of your support i love you thanks for all of our guests tonight seriously they make this fun we appreciate the guests we hope they're doing well i i love them they're a fun group it was a fun group tonight i hope that they had a good time that includes cherry rose econo boy boss yot stardust and counter points their link to the description now is a great time you can check out their videos those links are just below right now you can check those out right now because this stream is about to end and then you'll have something to watch you can jump in i think stardust is live right now my little sister hosting her controversial streams and debates and all that stuff over there we enjoy her she's a fun she's a fun character but is she yep she's live right now she's looking at pictures of like and what is this uh the the prince and the princess prince harry and and his wife and the and it says and shamed the critics they shamed the critics i'm reading on her channel right now which reminds me if she's on twitch we'll try to raid her sorry i forgot if you're watching by twitch i just completely forgot that it's out there but i always love watching stardust face like she seriously just makes me laugh am i the only one like just sometimes she like kind of like looks as if she's it's just i don't know do you guys know the xfl is starting back up pretty juicy news i hope you heard about that that's pretty epic and then uh but yeah i am my head i should go my head is kind of painful but i'm gonna do this i'm i'm gonna raid stardust right now our favorite like i said youtube's favorite daughter she's a good egg we we enjoy her wait let me raid dylan we haven't been there for a while or maybe bx bullet or or let's see here i always we've got one viewer on twitch though to raid with uh the one viewer on twitch are you ready to go or is that me does it count me but want to say let's see here do we have a viewer on twitch let me know i don't know but anyway we're gonna go i'm tired i gotta go uh let's see we'll try to i can't even see the the freaking chat on twitch there it is okay here we go uh oh crap red fazon sorry if i didn't see your question and um it sounds like i didn't see that on time i'm sorry about that says one viewer is ready to raid stardust in one second let's raid now here we go we're gonna raid stardust with one viewer because she's a good egg can you hear her i'm listening to her stream right now we've raided with one viewer a tremendous a tremendous raid but yeah thanks everybody isn't twitch is pretty cool like that i have to admit the raid idea is pretty cool but let's see living room speakers thanks james have a great night thank you for that i appreciate that as well as rolander tv says great show tonight thanks for that appreciate that orlander all right it's getting like i gotta go thanks for everything you guys i love you guys have a great rest of your night and we'll see you with the next one we have several debates coming up this week i am looking forward to seeing you there i hope you have a great rest of your night