 The idea for discussion, and I'm really seeing myself as just a placeholder who has been titled Performing Artists, because I have collaborations in a time of crisis. During the, I was at the artist luncheon just now, and I think two or three of you were in that session as well. And I mentioned that we were going to do this, and I put out to visual artists as well, because I realized from that discussion that it's, that most of the issues really go beyond disciplinary bounds. So, and I have a quick show of hands. How many people, you know, we all wear many hats. How many people, though, let's say, first of all, primarily identify as an artist among their many roles? Okay, so about, so, how many of the presenters? Okay, so about five, six. How many had some other role in it? So, what, what did? Man, location, manager, interpreter, and translator. Yeah. I think in, I'm not going to jump into a lot of things that I get frustrated about. I'm going to call you all by starting this great start. Absolutely. But just that oftentimes these conversations are about presenters and artists. Yeah. When the agent manager is so often just taken out of the conversation. Right. And put to the bottom of the heap in terms of even the power structure. Right. When there's so integral to this, to making this world go round. Right. Come on in. Can we maybe make a separate chair so you can just zoom in real quick? I'm going to do this in a chair. Okay. Yeah. Either way. So, yes. So what Hina's saying, so let's think of this not in terms of not only a hierarchy or linear, obviously, but in terms of, and not just dialogic but circular. So there is no, I'm always emphasizing as an educator in the classroom that it's a very simple thing. Teachers of all grade levels and levels do it. But let's just remind ourselves in a very simple way that this is a circular dialog. There is no beginning, middle, or end point. There is no, there is no higher position. We're all equal in that way. So those of you who thought Ananya Chatterjee was going to be co-facilitating with me because that's what it actually says on paper or on the website. Ananya unfortunately had to bow out because she had to bow out coming to the conference a few days ago. So she's not only not here in the room, which she's not here this weekend, but she sends her regards. So I will try my best to hold space for everyone. So, but in the interest of time, I want to dive in without doing introductions. I'd like the introductions to kind of come by default originally. The session was supposed to be two hours, and then I found that a couple of days ago was only 90 minutes. So I need another day of change to schedule. So really quick, I'm going to read the overview. Idea form, performing our presenter dialogues in a time of crisis. In this time of acute, upheaval, oppression, violence, full threats, and other crises. Social meaning and sense of identity, our dance, theater, music, and performance. All media are as impactful as ever. For better or worse, audiences are primed for the work in some ways. We present on stage and the experiences we provide of offstage community and education settings. In response, this collective idea sharing and brainstorming session is designed for artists and presenters and all people, all roles, asking model questions and searching for collaborative answers. What are the emergencies facing artists and presenters in our historical moment? What movements, images, sounds, and stories that engage artists' quality to create? And how do presenters and collaborators see their roles and responsibilities changing? What solutions are we capable of for embodying, capable of embodying for audiences? And how can artists and presenters innovate together to nurture and transform the arts landscape? So for these 90 minutes, at which we're now 10 minutes in, we'll identify the most pressing issues for participants in the room and then work on each in breakout groups, making safe spaces of difference to be revealing the characters, their stories, sounding out positive and proactive measures and proposing and choreographing responses, as well as simple questions. Each group will then present their quote, solution, and response, and then we'll finish the final individual of your commitments to some form of implementation. Anybody want to comment very, very briefly, quickly on any of this as a kind of first premise of the next 80 minutes that we spent together? Meaning I wrote this, but that doesn't mean necessarily anything. It's just a condition of that. Okay, so what I'd like to do for the first now 20 minutes, let's say, continue with introductions, prompts. So I just gave you some initial prompt questions in the overview about urgencies, about stories, roles, responsibilities. And I want to also, so I want to just open up the space to that, but I also want to throw out these other additional prompts. We're not going to get through all these. These are just possibilities. Why do artists make work? Why do presenters present? What does that even mean? What does presentation and art making mean? What does facilitating, translating, representation mean? What are the most pressing issues for you in the room? And briefly, as briefly and succinctly as you can describe, what are some examples of successes, failures, challenges in your experience of artist-represented collaborations and partnerships built into that prompt, that question, of course, are each of your variable definitions of success failures? Where are the areas for potential collaboration and partnership? What is the exact role of awning as a community for you, your organization? How much of a priority is it for you to make them a co-partner and have you define all those things? And I'm going to sit, so having said all that, sorry, the last thing I'll also say is an introduction just as a qualifier. For me, this is not a space allowing for art, entertainment, or ideas for their own sake, except in cases where doing so is a political or sociocultural gesture. This workshop is intended equally for sharing, meeting, brainstorming, and most of all, devising. I say that mostly because of some issues, for example, that came up during the artist luncheon, which is, I can't remember who brought it up, the point about how some people, there's always this like, I'm here to make connections, I'm here to get a gig or to find some artists to build relationships, but there's always this awkward, I need you, I am going to hold back, I need you, I'm going to hold back, I need you, I'm going to hold back. So I just want us to say, again, sit in a circle and just not even, you know, just not really worry about that. I can't stop anyone from thinking about that. We can't stop ourselves from being aware of who we are in this space and what we are and what we do. But I want us to also, just to think in terms of possibility, all my attention, so I'm going to shut up. I just want to open it up and I will take notes as we go along. Hi, who just asked, first of all, does anybody have any, does anybody maybe want to throw out some definitions to start us with? You know, what is, what does it mean for an artist or a presenter or a, you know, agent, facilitator, manager? What does it mean for them to collaborate? What is the nature? What's the nature of that type of relationship? Why do we, what is that relationship you think is, Rachel? Do we have a mic? Oh, yes, sorry. Why don't we use that just, it's right in front of us. And can I just say something with a mic? Oftentimes people say, oh, I'm loud enough, I can hear it. Recognize it's not for you that you're speaking into the mic. It's for making sure that everyone has the ability to hear. Yeah, some people are, hear less, say it with others. I am not good at speaking, so. Or projecting, I should say. I think that relationship is a super, super intimate one. And just like all intimate relationships becomes emotional, personal, as well as professional. And can be fraught with all of the problems that come in with an emotional, personal relationship. And maybe like an arranged marriage. Someone else? I will say that the idea, I'm Christina Wong, I'm a performance artist and a political candidate. And of, I, she, her, hers. And I, when you say, what does collaborator mean? And I, it's like, oh, I never really think of it as I'm collaborating with a presenter. Because it, that's the most transactional relationship, right? It's like, okay, so I got this show, maybe they chime in with, oh man, we can schedule it around this time. Like it's, that's maybe where the creativity really comes in is like, why don't you put this up? What should we invite? But it doesn't, I think with the new pieces that I'm trying to propose, it's a little bit more ambitious because I'm asking for a venue that won't charge tickets. You know, and asking to get out of the way they present, maybe the way they have. I mean, this is sort of a mind-blowing idea. How do you collaborate with a presenter when it's a transaction? Can I just give a quick tangent to that? So, and not denying at all, and actually acknowledging very much so, the fact that it is often, as you just described, thought of as a transactional, let's say for lack of a better term, what someone said last hour, business relationship. I'm also, the reason that I've sort of created this forum is also to try and either get away from or add to that mindset. I'll let you, I'll let the group decide whether they want to change that, or substitute it or something. So, someone had their hand up over here. Maybe you can each hand the mic up for each other. Yes, my name is Vincent Berlaw. I am a producer, a commercial producer, in addition to being an artist, which is a slightly different commercial sense than an offer-profit model. But the relationships seem to be, even on both sides, very symbiotic, because one needs the others, one often needs the other to exist and to realize their dream and the goal. So, the thing that comes to mind, the word that comes to mind is symbiosis, because we're both facilitating each other's needs and sometimes we delve into each other's realms. It's kind of like a venn diagram where we kind of overlap, because there are ambition, there are often ambitions as presenters to feel a part of the artistic process. And as artists, we want to make sure that we have a key or have access to how we are presented to make sure that we're presented in the light that we want to be presented as artists. That's the constant, constant jockeying for position and each entity needs the other one to succeed. As a producer, I kind of, well, I look at it from a monetary standpoint, which is kind of, it's very different, it's a completely different model because we're talking about communication and so I can have a foot in both worlds and it's self-gratifying. But ultimately, I want to make sure that as a producer I present the work that I believe in and as an artist when I'm getting my work presented I want to make sure that the presenter is presenting me the way that I feel like my voice should be heard. And so it's in the honor. No, actually I'm just excited to come back for Sam. So I think this makes me realize that what I was describing was a curator relationship with an artist, which is very different from a presenter relationship with artists and one thing that I've run into is when people treat me like a transaction when I want to collaborate and that is probably the most frustrating experience ever. Yeah, but I think that would mean that, I was gonna say, but being the presenter is so often the easy target of that type of mindset. Yeah, because then I get boxed in before they even give me a chance. I left your earlier metaphor connecting into an arranged marriage and for a lot of reasons, but one way to think about arranged marriages is a commitment to a community if you compare that to other kinds of marriages that what you're committing to is a legacy and what you're committing to is like continuing something on and the ways in which artists and presenters have a commitment to communities, be it geographic or be it social or be it emotional, whatever the ways that those communities intersect. So I think that's a common ground in which hopefully we can get a commune across differences in conversation that conversations can happen. Examples of collaboration, partnering, sharing some other term that you might have? Yeah, I'm Andre Sacri. I'm a radio game performance group from Brooklyn. I can really say most recently the relationship I had with the Western Center for the Arts in Columbus, Ohio was extremely informative and it felt very supportive. I felt that I was able to be entered into a community coming from Brooklyn and then being in Columbus for an entire season as far as I was also teaching in Ohio State, the way in which I was able to enter a community felt very good. It wasn't something where it's just like I'm coming, which I have felt before in generations before it's kind of like this thing, especially being a New York based artist, like oh I'm gonna come in and show this community how it's done which I cannot stand. But it was more like okay, Columbus has an amazing and rich history which I actually need to learn about for myself. And I felt that the Western Center provided the opportunity for me along with the King Arts Complex from Japan Commons. And I think that there is a way in which education can happen for the artists themselves before they actually enter a space. So not necessarily saying you're gonna bring this amazing work but more like okay, actually you are working in a certain way that actually you can learn, we can learn from community as we were just saying. And I think who knows, maybe that might get away from the more presenter artists, produce work, show work, make money, fill seats where it is something where spend time, get to know people, get to see youth in a workshop at Western Center and then later on I'm going to a break and battle and I'm seeing the same youth and they're like hey, Mr. Zachary, how are you doing? I was like oh, what's going on? It's genuine, not a moment they have felt forced not a moment. And so I think that I guess the long story short is perhaps we can allow time to work in a different way. Can I ask you a context question? So you said if you value the ability for you as the artist to educate yourself about the context you were stepping into beforehand what about the presenter educating themselves about your situation? The presenter educating themselves about me and my work? Or whatever they needed to so that the onus isn't simply on one side. I felt the presenter and again in as much time as possible with all of our work and you know our careers and what we're doing my work being based in Afrofuturism allowed the presenter to have the time to really say okay, this is what Andre specifically is doing with Afrofuturism Lane Chaplin-Steven was at Wexner Center took the time to do an interview and podcast with me and that was a creative way for Lane also to get a better sense of like okay, what does Afrofuturism mean for me? Not necessarily saying like Lane, go and read on these a million books of course we don't always have time for that but it was a very simple and creative way for education to happen on both sides I was able to understand okay Lane, what do you value? Lane was able to understand a little bit deeper okay this is what Andre is valuing with the work as well before it enters Wexner Center and then strategizing up until I even got to go for months via the communicator with Javon as well as King Vars Tomplex a lot of communication helped prior to the my time coming and I think it's just allowing those channels to be open would you be okay would you be okay if I labeled that because the idea that's coming to my head is a dialogue of mutuality that sounds weird for me, thanks Michelle Dilleressa with ATT&CK Theater here in Pittsburgh and I think one of the things that makes that kind of relationship more collaborative and less to use your words transactional is also there is sometimes an opportunity for the artist to help morph their offering our offering to almost solve a problem where to look at a challenge I'll call it a challenge and I'm just thinking of a recent example in St. Louis it was actually the non-traditional presenter and the museum association and it was for the featured speaker series and they said we know your work well but here's a challenge we need is it possible that in some ways interactive it's about 500 people can it be on the stage but can we create something that is more interactive and dialogue based with the audience and so it's looking at what we already what we're working on what our body of work is and then being with the presenter to collaborate and shift the perspective a little bit and I think that that goes to what you were saying about that it becomes beneficial for the artist because then we've challenged ourselves to create something maybe it's on a premiere maybe it's not brand new but something different or from a freement differently than we would have ever before if that challenge wasn't given to us a facilitator but then I've also gatherable I didn't identify as well but the relationships that I think have been most successful is when there's a common there is the shared needs right where the individual needs but a clear understanding of what the goals are for each party and where they do overlap and where they diverge and focusing on sort of the overlapping spaces and understanding what the give and take is going to be in that an example of that is my first work as a producer and artistic director was working with a venue who said we want to bring in the South Asian community to our space in our and we want to create this I want something that's going to appeal to the hipsters and the crannies was literally what I was given like you know give me something that's going to be hipsters and the crannies I'm like alright I actually have this idea what if we did a show like this and she's like huh okay that sounds interesting now the venue has a lot of bureaucracy the woman there is a white cisgender woman and I was she's like I find people that I trust and then I let them go and do she's like I don't know anything about what you're about to do tell me what you're doing but my job is to use my privilege within this institution to push aside all the red tape so you can do what you need to do but you need to keep me updated like so it was constant communication right she would push back she's like I don't think this is going to work in our space and I would have to sort of convince her and there's times where I'm like just trust me man let those questions also made me think deeper about why I'm making certain decisions right so it was a what I found that was beautiful was that one it's an organization like Lincoln Center to be able to go hey they trust me now that's just elevated sort of reputation in the field right but she's also like I have this privilege how am I going to use this to elevate other voices I'd like to talk really quickly about I mentioned audience or audience community maybe other words other contexts for how you think about you know who you're serving who you're partnering with on a larger scale who's the sort of yes so that's I'm really curious about that because just one of the reasons I created the Taco Charter project simply because I've been touring across the country with a lot of NPN supports of fabulous presenters here who have supported the work for 20 something years but in doing so you know it's not easy when you bring in just an artist or a Latin American political or a Latin performance artist to think that the entire Latino community in the city where you haven't presented Latino artists or Latin X artists or Latin American artists and I'm from Ecuador so you know it's not like there's going to be tons of Ecuadorians rushing to that deal so this would happen quite often just because the responsibility falls upon sometimes the artists thinking that they're going to bring in this community when the center itself doesn't have a legacy of doing that and that's a really big challenge because they've been dealing with a very Eurocentric plantation paradigm sometimes I use big words and therefore I feel superfluous but one of the reasons why I created the Taco Truck Diaz project was simply because I wanted to bring the work to the people we have a truck we have a stage and right now we're raising the funds to bring it to the African American communities in the lower ninth we're bringing it to the immigrant communities in Metro New Orleans including immigrant communities in Chalet Canada in the suburbs because with all the outreach I can do a lot to bring black, brown and white people together through the projects in New Orleans we sometimes can't get the communities that we're looking to get to the theater especially immigrant communities that are afraid of facilities even New Orleans Museum of Art presented the work early this year and I had arranged with them for anyone that was an immigrant act with the Congress or the Congress of the state laborers the immigrant actors all they needed to do was bring their I.D. but not there because there's an I.D. issue but to bring in their documentation that was part of the Congress but we also made an initiative to let people know that they could come to the museum and see the work outside but that within itself is a barrier because it's not like the museum has been you know working with that immigrant community but they did something radical because the educational presenter who approached me to do it wanted to and we publicly announced on that national program radio interviews that yes the immigrant community had a lot of radics to see it but it wasn't like they still rushed because the center that the Newells Museum of Art you know just presented recently you know Puerto Rico but again you're dealing with a legacy of exclusion and it's always been como le traigo el teatro de la gente a la gente how do I bring a people's theater to people that's always been a challenge for me and many of us because we're working and yes by the way it was built on the blood of so many African-Americans and Puerto Ricans during the time in the 50s because we're running a scholar from New York and they called it speaking so Lincoln Center has a really tragic history of how it's been built so you know I don't want to go on further other than just those are still challenges and they've been challenges for 25 years that have been involved with this now because there's five things you could say in terms of the takeaway of that that conversation or collaboration between you and the presenter in terms of priority or something that's most urgent what would you say at the top of your head? Well even at Vanderbilt we sold our aliens immigrants and other evildoers and predominantly Vanderbilt University presented but in Nashville there's a big immigrant community so one of the things to really get to I brought the unplugged version to a community center now where all these free tickets but there's still that legacy I think that the challenge is how do your centric spaces engage in trying to do the community outreach that's not just the one-way street right and you can't expect in that artists of color black brown Asian that you're bringing in to do that work for you when it hasn't been done and you can't just hire a person of color an outreach communicator or outreach director who's going to make miracles happen at your your centric plantation presenting space I don't know alliteration is sometimes a problem for me you know I mean these are these are challenges I'm not a big fan of POC I think it should be melanin people of power so I'm just saying but you know these are challenges and one of the reasons like how do we bring the theater of people needs to be that people see people need to see it I'm going to be back on what and for example what I was talking about and beauty in the community is is the presenting that I have been wanting to do or trying to do now trying to do for many many years I'm going to be going to be going to be going to be going to be going to be going to be going to be for many years it's not that easy it's not that easy to bring your community into a space that they have never been and I mean you cannot go as a I do Seattle coming to see me that I put your tongue in the mouth you know why would I go to see you if I see you every day I really enjoy it so we need to find ways to make that invitation for them and try to understand their needs and sometimes we don't do that we see it by them over a month say to you you should go see me because I make your community know it's like we need to figure out a way to make a welcoming for them as the community that they are and that's where I can start which is already a little bit later it's felt like five minutes to me so I would I'd like and again I want this I want the group to be you know have power over this I'm trying to just really be a facilitator or a spaceholder my idea was to do breakout groups at this point along certain themes but I'm wondering so we could either do that or but I'm also wondering if we want to just do a limited number of breakout groups and just come up with you know the solutions that come up from those groups for this type just this overall idea of collaborations I'm going to stop saying you know according to your prompt artist presenter collaborations I'm just going to say presentation collaborations maybe maybe and maybe you guys can come up with something better would it be possible to hear some positive responses to somebody's concerns that maybe one more positive successful example real quick in like a minute or two before we break out I guess I was gently part of it but I was one of the Dandy Minions and Taylor Max 24 hour piece I have no idea how that gets fighting that seems like the most it's amazing I think the effects it has in great communities is incredible but like I'm just like my mother sitting there adding up the numbers of how much this 24 hour show with a cast of like 100 people or more costs and but to me like that's that's an amazing risk for a presenter who have that relationship with this artist to go yeah we'll do a show for this long we'll we'll run a 6 hour show union time you know and all this kind of stuff to me I think I've been inspired looking at that guy like okay I think presenters are passionate about doing more than selling tickets but really creating experiences and communities okay so again being the clock keeper so I'm thinking let's say we want to say 20 minutes so till 3.30 breakout groups I think we should we need to limit the number of groups because otherwise the reporting till 6 p.m. let's I want to say because I want to leave time for actual like commitments at the end as in addition to the reporting backup solution idea the response that is so I'm going to say 3 groups which doesn't sound like a lot but it's going to go like that it's not going to go like that because you're going to have a lot to say is that okay okay so I could just say over people want to yeah okay so I tweaked yes that's a line here's a line and so let's come back at 3.30 and and you'll each have five minutes because I want to hold the last 15 minutes to going around and people making some kind of final sort of action planner commitment things even if it's just a tiny thing like I'm going to make this phone call or I'm going to talk to this person I'm going to write this down and actually show it to someone even if it's something as simple as that that's something more than you had committed to an hour ago so okay thank you what are the groups supposed to be talking about this idea of presentation collaborations what are some operational functional or ethical to guide ourselves into actually independent practical as well because you guys all have creative solutions isn't it maybe the space is a little bit more because I don't know in my I don't know it might just be like all artists oh yes actually thank you yes we need to make sure that there are a number of different types of people with different types of roles for the interest of time I'm sorry I'm going to say I have another agent manager yes okay so you two not in the same group so anybody who's not an artist or presenter primarily please split yourselves up between the three groups so and those of you who are I think there are more artists in this room so then quote and quote presenters if you could kind of split yourselves up between the various groups um we have a funding person in the group here so who's a presenter who's a presenter okay yeah you're kind of thinking of this side so maybe okay why don't you guys stay there maybe two of you at least come over here and then maybe another artist or two on this side because this was majority majority presenters thank you all okay so let's come back in 17 minutes if you want to use the chat or someone can type off notes on the digitally and then you email them to me and I'll send them to people who are trying to find some of the stuff anything to bring back please write it down now yeah I mean it wasn't like it took forever but I don't mind but can you say as a presenter you're happy you're happy because you're artist this way and he's coming at you alright go to this side to say I will be in support of my community I love you as an artist as an artist and you take presence off of you yeah I'm trying to find ways that are relatively much than is true there are a lot of things that you gotta get a building down to make there's that be in place when you talk about that's a like I think you can have a person just come over to you and I wonder if there's a lot of people who have a foundation type of audience and so with others and so we find ourselves saying I believe this artist is not bringing a lot of hope to cover this artist that has a conscience that I agree I don't know I'm not I'm not I'm not I'm not I'm not I'm not I'm not I'm not I'm not I'm not I'm not I'm not I'm not I'm not I'm not I'm not I'm not I'm not I'm not I'm not I'm not I'm not I'm not I'm not I'm not I'm not I'm not I'm not I'm not I'm not I'm not I'm not I'm not I'm not I'm not I'm not I'm not Yeah. I'm so sorry. I'm sorry. I'll be yours. I'll destroy the red stuff. I think there are presenters who are going to like to know about the tomorrow's stuff. I think I do never see this how society is going to be in here. I think the university is a society that you think is in here, or in its interaction, that we have the slots and we have full tickets that drive them out into the job. But they also, like, those decorators who work at these weeks, they really care about who's who and how, and are in this house, and that's trying to find partners. And I think they're like trying to find this way. Out of the piece of it is, it's actually too much of, you know, I mean, I have said, I think there's too much of it. I think the rest of it, and we have to complain about it, we have to talk about it, but it's also a mission, and we will go, and it's down, I don't know, but we don't necessarily know, it's only 3,000 to 5,000, and it's up to 5,000. So many have tried to drive it out, because it was too early, but I don't know, you know, the world, so we can see that long, they know, you know, they've got this, this is from our video here, so I know about this already. This might announce the term, it's flying up right now to the US. But it's kind of bringing it down, to the US, to the US, to the US, to the US, to the US. And it's probably going to be more, against the US though, I think we're going to come out with it, and take that over, I know the tuition of what that third-party would come. People will be sure that they're standing again. We can find that, place it together. They will be able to see the economic diminution. It's not something important. And they want to see that balance between somebody and somebody else. I feel very strongly that this journey is a serious one. Right. Before the... Let's come back to the circle, folks. I know we can be together forever. Let's come back to the circle, guys. Thank you. I wrote a lot of things. I know just acknowledging that this session as a whole is really more just a provocation than anything else. Oh, my God. Hello. Sorry. I should use the mic. Thank you, everyone. Those of you who didn't hear what I just said, I think we're here just even this hour and a half is really just like a provocation for this whole topic. But I want to take the time. We have 24 minutes left. I want to be respectful of people's time. Some of you may have appointments at 4 o'clock. For those of you who are willing to maybe stay a couple minutes over because I think we've got some really amazing creative juices going. Obviously, we can do that as well. Although I have a meeting at 4.15 as well. So without further ado, can we hear back in summary form ideas, principles, guidelines, responses, solutions, quote, unquote, from each group. So who wants to go first? Who can go first? I'm going to hand this mic to somebody. Please take it from me. I'll try to be as quick as possible. So the first problem that we identified, how do we remove the vetting process of white filtering from bringing forth artists, meaning non-gendered, beyond binary, black, brown, queer, international artists into spaces with their work. First solution, having more black and brown international artists, queer, non-gendered, non-binary artists and persons as leaders in the spaces and institutions. Two, challenging local presenters slash curators to develop work with artists in their near and dear homegrown communities. Three, growing affinity groups that have influence and reputation in the arts to amplify the voices with whom they have collective strength. Speaking on behalf of their community and background with artists that share or even expand their values for identifying institutions' varied capacities within their various locales and legacies. Two, excuse me, second problem, the artist's agent curation slash presenter slash institution role and the issues within that. First solution, getting artists basic structural and logistics needs met before they enter institutions in order to support their work. How do we allow them to understand how to build a tech writer, how to press release correctly. Two, an example from Painted Bride, holding space to allow the values that we hold dear within our relationships to be reimagined and repurposed in the 21st century, having access to our own resources that we can be responsible to in the moment. Three, can we let go of physical spaces for reinvesting our strategy of audience building by attempting to bring work directly to people. Any quick, maybe one quick comment or response to that summary as well? I think you said about getting artist access to their own resource. Can you clarify that part of that? I believe I tried to write verbatim what you said. I can hear the question. Giving artists access to what? I tried to write verbatim what you said. You said having the access to our own resources so we can be responsive in the moment. Meaning that our, I guess I'm trying to understand what those resources are. So we're looking to sell our building and take our money and invest it and then use the interest from that as the core support of our organization. So that we can be responsible in the moment rather than, you know, waiting for a grant that could take a year or two. I think the other part of it was that what the Dean of Rights is trying to do is that by not having the physical space anymore they're saying that they have the ability to go to the people, go to the community and give the artist resources in different ways than before it was like one of the primary persons was the physical space. Thank you. Sure. Many different points. Some summary. One, I get one note. We know that presenters are often thinking about the responsibilities they have to their audiences and their survivors in their communities. How and where does the, can the artists also consider those especially bourgeois artists? Like how do they consider something accountable to that same paradigm? On the flip side of that same exact coin, right? You also, the thought when artists are building work often they're deeply entrenched in thinking about how they're building relationships with the communities they're thinking about. How does that translate to the exit and entrance of a touring presenting model? So there's one, this is all new learning for me but considering the history of the cultural wars and the ways in which they shifted funding to prioritize often resources landing in a presenter's lab. What does that mean to foreground artists in that model now? And how do we shift that thinking? And how is it being transparent and clear and taking the time you need to make all of that work? And a fourth nugget that came out that felt really salient to our group was thinking about presenting artists often presenters will partner with community organizations that somehow reflect the artistry that's on stage. So if there's someone coming in with a piece that's specifically looking at Black Bevin the rebirth of justice organization in that city it doesn't work if it's a one-time reach out. These are partnerships and relationships that you've built over time and then when the artist comes in with the work that makes sense with these people you've known for years that's when it works organically. The other models can feel really icky. Oh, sit there. That's great. Thoughts, responses, comments, questions about any of that? We spend a lot of time sort of deconstructing the process of how you need to engage that conversation and the first thing we arrived at is that you have to listen before you can start talking. You really need to take that time first of all to identify the need and identify the opportunities with taking the long view. I think sometimes we really do want to get away from that transactional which led us to a whole conversation about curators versus programming and if you're programming programming you're just slotting things in. I need a dance group, I need this kind of group, I need this kind of group versus somebody who's really curating the season and you might really love an artist but it might not be the right season because you might want to tie in with something that you know and an artist you don't know what's coming down the time, coming down the pipe, but Rachel may know of an art exhibit that's coming up in two years that that's the right thing and that's the right collaboration. So being willing to take the long view and really let things evolve rather than trying to make it happen right now because now might not be the right time plus the time of the year that you might be calling on that programmer you wouldn't call a dance company in the middle of their nutcracker season so maybe you need to call somebody during the summer when it's their downtime so that they really do have time to talk to you. So where in the year are you trying to engage somebody? It might be your convening for you but it might not be their best time to be hearing you or having that dialogue to be understanding of someone else's planning cycle and then one of the things that Catherine has really done an amazing job is developing trust so that she can put something out there that is foreign or new and she has people trust her because she's really maintained the quality and then we just explored how do you do this in a more connected way? I love developing affinity groups, I love that. Can I ask about developing these things in a more connected way? What does that mean? I think it's really having the dialogue where you're not just dropping in doing your art and leaving and you're having the proper lead time to pull in the partners whether it's an exhibit, whether it's a community group the campus of partner I told a story that I had a community college that she'd been on campus for 20 years and it wasn't until a certain artist came in with a certain residency activity that I heard her work with the Disabilities Office so just being open to that exploration in terms of the connectedness is it taking time to explore? Do you know what was really interesting whenever it was possible as an artist and this didn't happen all the time it didn't happen when I developed Project Representer and literally I came in a full year maybe six months before the development project and made all those connections with the various community partners it didn't happen all the time when it did happen it led to some beautiful fruition and real community engagement with that presenter who already had been developing relationships with the Latin American community in their city and had that but when we were able to come in earlier and I was able to meet the community partners it offered them a bilingual example of what we were doing and the youth outreach we were doing it almost always led to a really beautiful and powerful and successful project but then again it was just the funding possibility and it could happen in like three days we set it all on and come in did beautifully with that with Tiger Tail Productions in Miami where I performed in real times but that didn't happen all the time and it did happen, it was beautiful and again that's always funding I talked with Laurel who was mentioning about the painted bride painted bride women's iconic spaces and then rethinking spaces because wow all these models to consider solutions in terms of communication between the different parties involved one, if you put your email address down there is a document that was created it's a community engagement document that was crafted by several of the APAP fellows from Covert 2 that's a series of like five or six questions that they get the presenter to answer and they get the artist to answer that's about like who's your target audience this is more for the team like family space and young audiences but like who do you speak to what themes do you want from the artist and it's a form that each one feels out separately but when then the presenting organization has it they can see where the overlaps are so I think it's a really great way to sort of answer some of these questions and the second thing just because I come from a space of really working with culturally specific work in South Asian work is spending the time to I know within the Indian community or the South Asian community who the audiences are like audiences are within the larger South Asian community for work so I articulate that and I put it down on paper to have it just be in a conversation because recognizing that the conversation that I'm having with the programmer ultimately the marketing team is someone else and they don't get all the information like the curator or the programmer we have these amazing conversations of why we think this work is going to fit and who it's for we don't know if they talk to the translate that to the marketing person at all like I have a marketing description for this is how you're going to sell it to your Indian audience and this is how you're going to sell it to your non-Indian audience because the Indian audience is going to connect to these two things the non-Indian needs to get this version but I'll put that down and even other specifics of there's these connections and these connections you know your work you're thinking about your audience as an artist when you're thinking of your work put it down, no one's a mind reader and there's multiple people involved so documenting it and creating or handing off PDFs even for the agent or manager makes it easier we don't know if someone's going to read it or not but more chances of communicating you want to add to that? I want to say in the last 10 minutes I have a specific example of that a friend of mine who works at a measure institution contacted me about bringing audience or I'm a way in a different city completely and they were basically saying hey Andre can you possibly send this information of a specific performance that we have dealing with culture and the prison industrial complex and the incarceration we're interested in coming to this show we need audience and immediately I was just like and of course it was like the day before the event was happening and I was just like man that is a huge opportunity missed you know because I'm from the city and it was just like that it's a literal part of Chicago culture and again as you were saying within the institution I was like whoa that's the entire black South South Chicago and so there was something missed in the marketing within the institution to identify that but I'm not even I'm not sure I mean like this at the top that's an almost 30 year history of black Chicago almost 40 years and they were having trouble bringing audience to a piece talking about that that's like having trouble bringing an audience to in Miami with Cuba of our Quintanillas you see what I'm saying so that's a major disconnect and I think that as presenters and producers of representatives of organizations it's our response it's the presenters of our responsibilities too not only understand our communities but understand who we're bringing in and what resources they have in forwarding their own voice because in a lot of these communities they're involved in gentrification it's very real and it's happening so fast so we are accessing we're trying to the organizations are trying to under the guise of diversity bring in artists that show the diverse change in the communities but we don't necessarily know how to reach them and so in a lot of these organizations do so the more actually what you're saying the more that artists can do to say okay I'm coming to Cheyenne, Wyoming I have this piece on Afro-Cuban Orrisha culture okay the Cheyenne community is not may, I don't know but they may not have that understanding and know necessarily how to forward that voice towards their demographic communicate with the artists as a presenter to say okay this is not our lane so how do you want us to communicate your vision that I think that allows for the band diagrams to overlap so that when the piece comes that there is some community support from an aspect of the community that the presenters might not have even known about Rachel's dying decision but I really do want to say these last couple minutes so very quickly for commitment because that's kind of the ultimate goal to the session I'll just be very fast, I think this is just a solution so sometimes that disconnect it's because the institution is on a different timeline than the artists creative process and it's not just about the communication it's about figuring out what timeline the institution is on in terms of like how up to speed the marketing department is or the institution's wheels are just moving in a particular order and you have to understand how that order works and each institution has a different internal groove and structure and the way that they move and the way that different departments talk to each other the other thing I'll say is some of what you're calling out because I think sometimes I try really hard to figure out how the visual art sector and the performing art sector can talk to each other and learn because there are certain things that work better in the visual art sector and vice versa so the studio visit is one that works really well in the visual art sector and that's a one-on-one conversation over a series of multiple studio visits that you have with an artist so it's like that form but I call it the studio visit the studio can be a laptop or computer and the site visit is the other and that's typical for museums who are working on bigger projects so like larger commissions they pull the artists in so those are just timeline solutions studio visits I'll just add something personally also for my haven dialogues in past years a little bit of a takeaway that I'm seeing a subtext from the last few comments so one of my collaborators, Renny Harris always whenever he goes into a new context whether it's a school or a presentation setting something he always has to remind others as well as himself is why do we always have to be the ones to translate ourselves so and that's not to say that and that's not to speak to hegemony or oppression specifically or necessarily but it's in other words it's a dialogue we have to translate ourselves for each other as well I think what you know for example what Rachel just said is also we as artists have to remember these things just like presenters and everybody has to remember what everybody else is going through so we literally have six minutes left what I would really like to do is go around or just open it up so commitment for when Anani and I devised or originally conceived of this session and for those of you who know are always saying it what are we going to do so I'm going to channel Anani or I just did I guess and say what are we going to do what are you going to do and so my provocation earlier you know was genuine it could be just simply as like I'm going to make a phone call because to AB person to just ask this question even or to suggest make the suggestion I'm going to write that essay that I've been waiting that I've been putting off for five years about this subject and put it up on medium.com so the right 18 people will see it you know but you know I mean it's funny and I you know yeah I'm saying that because my last essay had 18 years but maybe but one of those 18 might book me or when I'm in a position to facilitate something maybe I'll help to get them booked you know so it's it's that sort of thing so I'm just going to put it out given all of this very fruitful discussion which I have your emails now I pledge so my commitment is I'm going to pledge to put as much of the information that came out of this hour and a half to send to all of you to keep the conversation going the note takers please email me Michael Sakamoto one at gmail.com okay who wants to go first I'm going to campaign to everybody I really like the because I had heard that CTG artistic director Michael Richie also had a podcast where he interviews the playwrights and this podcast idea that Lane was doing that too is amazing and very equalizing so my pledge is next time I get presented out and this is whoever presents me if you're in this room or not we do a podcast and we read together and have a conversation a meaningful conversation publicly before the engagement I've been with the NPN for this time and I'm so deeply grateful but it was artists that recommended me to be part of the NPN and the artists that recommended my work to other NPN presenters granted you know I performed at the CEC back in 1994 in the following year I was touring internationally but I've always been committed to many artists that opened the doors for me and I think that as artists ourselves we need to make sure that we open the doors for others we can open up a window for another and you know say hey you know I would come into space and someone would say oh last time we had another Latino artist was Guillermo Gomez Beña I said great let's talk about Eli Arce let's talk about other people that you may not know but we need to do that so we need to advocate for ourselves and I'm always committed to doing that and I think that's a really positive way for us not just for curators and presenters to say hey I recommend this artist but you get to a space and you're recommending other artists supporting and recommending other artists that's maybe four words it's very difficult to be simple I pledge to get a hold of and share as a community engagement questionnaire if a lot of people could benefit from that so wherever we went I think that I've been thinking about one of the things that I've been thinking about a lot lately is there's a lot of dialogue going on in Los Angeles the Board of Supervisors actually mandated that the Los Angeles County Arts Commission look at cultural equity and inclusion as a through line for everything that they do and now if you want to apply for a grant for the Cultural Affairs Commission you have to have a cultural equity and inclusion policy as part of your organizational application and so one of the things that people are talking about maybe that never gets down to the marketing department or whatever it's really having a dialogue with all of your colleagues that infuses those bigger issues of ethical and policy issues into how does that translate into the curatorial process and into the way that you do your work and so making time which is always so precious for everybody but making the time to actually imbue your practical decision making programmatically with those bigger aspirational kinds of things like the NPN is really grappling with right now how do you build cultural equity and inclusion into the DNA of your organization I think that that's something that can address a lot of the issues that have been brought up here because a lot of times we compartmentalize those deeper discussions to the day to day decision making points that we have to tackle so you're going to boil that down to us so making time on a regular basis to have the entire team not just the curatorial or programming team but your marketing people, your special events people your development people be part of that larger deeper discussion because that will really translate to how you do your daily work so is that like cultural equity and empowerment? This pledge thing is good kind of makes you do it Hi everyone I'm Keva one is The Walker Publishers' Fourth Wall our online publication and I want the articles attached to the shows to be writers who are from the communities and also the experiences related to the artists work and when possible the artists if they have rapport with writers or individuals who write to start there I think that's really important to have a dialogue beyond the live performance if possible so that's one that we invested in the others I'd love to use that community engagement questionnaire and build it in to give it to our evaluator next year who's going to look at our entire curatorial approach and evaluate and talk with artists talk with other co-commissioners things like that I think that's a good way to inject it into these questions of how's it going so that we know what we've been doing I'm hoping that could be a step Mine just comes I think from a reflection of a conversation we had in our group about making this space for what for asking in our context it was the programmer what do you need just as a way to start the conversation and I'm going to flip it for myself and say taking a moment to either put it on paper or at least say it to myself or somebody else what do I need before making that initial email phone call whatever it is and why would that relationship be authentic beyond the fact that we want to do our work I don't have a problem with that but going a step deeper to be able to have a honest conversation to be honest with yourself first there's maybe a zone we'll stay here for another few minutes but I'm just letting people type hey Samsung okay thank you let's acknowledge if people not everybody even has to yeah I think I want to make a commitment to try to do more site visits and more studio visits on the regular basis with everyone and take recommendations from other artists to look at artists that they are recommending that I should look at there's so many that are related to this document I just tried to find it cannot find it, so I played just to find it and send it out before the end of the weekend I can port it perfect but before the end of the weekend I need to find it and send it I pledge to make the space to have a marketing department kind of that's a whole other panel beyond that for a long time I'm Beth we've been talking about we actually have a small recording studio in our space where we could do podcasts with Christina Wain they might as well make a pledge after I get my marketing department last one because I know we're over time people have to go places okay thank you thank you all so I will get whatever I have to you my notes, again please note takers please write down and I'll get that to everyone thank you, thank you, thank you again I'm honored to