 Today, we will talk about the topic of sex work. We talked, heard about this a lot, everyone has an opinion, how is it with the sex workers, are they in a dangerous situation, how are their broke surroundings, and here is one person who can talk about it. She will read about it, Undine Derivier is a sex worker and wrote a book about it. And it will talk about political topics, how, about these, she is coming, Undine, the stream is starting. Hi, thank you. Yes, I would like to read from my book, My Horm Manifesto, that was published in 2018, after I wrote about it for quite a while, that's how it goes with books, it takes a while to write them, longer than you think. I am a founding member of the Professional Association of Erotic and Sexual Services, and in 2013 we founded ourselves as a response to the rising cause for prohibition on sex work or in purchasing sex work. I'd like to talk about that, I was their press spokesperson for the first four years and did a lot of work until a literary agent approached me and asked whether I wouldn't want to turn this into a book, and with the promise that it was allowed to become a political book, with which I would be able to get my message to the public. I wrote that, but we did have, we did bring in a few nice brothel anecdotes to keep people interested. It became quite a personal thing, I interviewed many colleagues regarding their own stories so that I wouldn't just be talking about me. Customers and operators are given a voice, people that offer or rent places to work, scientists, researchers on sex work were given a voice. So I hope that I gave quite a rounded picture in the book, I can only read a small extract of course. I'll start with personal then with political, and I'm only going to read about half of the time and then I'll be very interested in your questions and in exchange, because in my experience that is what really gets more done, is more effective. So I'll start with the first chapter with the introduction, and I will then talk a little about myself. Something ought to be done. I don't have a fundamental problem with flat rate sex clubs, and I have taken part in gang bang parties myself. Gang what? Gang bang. Gang bang? Exactly gang bang. Gang bang. I'm having tea with a distinguished educated lady in her mid sixties in a lavishly furnished cafe at the Alster Lake in central Hamburg. We are doing vocabulary exercises in sex work terminology. My counterpart has been campaigning against human rights violations around the world for many years and received several awards for that. And in that vein, she is now demanding abolish sex work. Gang bang is group sex with more men than women. Such orgies are organized both privately, often in swinger clubs, and in brothels or hotel suites by sex workers for paying customers. We are now talking about the latter. Sometimes I wonder whether it's not literally degrading for the boys to be queuing their manhood in their hands, waiting for their turn, while I am comfortably longing about in a love swing, lasciviously waving for the next one to come closer. But the men who visit these events are excited by the atmosphere and by watching ahead of the act. This is their foreplay. Their time inside me until orgasm is mostly two to five minutes. For me, this is sometimes pleasurable only through the combined experience. And fortunately, having pleasure at work is not forbidden. Those who cannot bear to wait are allowed to walk up to my left or right and receive some hand relief. I can multitask. Should anyone pester me or ask for anything I don't want or treat me unkindly, they'll be quickly called to order by the other members of their sex. And that mostly happens long before there's a need for me to assert myself too much or for the organizers to step in. There is a certain social control at these parties. After all, bad blood will only spoil the atmosphere for everyone. When I've had enough, having had intercourse perhaps five to ten times, I take a break, have a shower and a coke and some conversation. Then it's back to the play area. This is a form of flat rate sex. Money is paid as a lump sum for the time at the event by the guests to the organizers and also by the organizers to me. And that's fine by me. I would lose track in the flow of things and I don't keep an exact count. For someone who doesn't mind having quick sex with complete strangers, an afternoon like this is a nice way to earn money. For those who ascribe much more meaning to sex than to a back massage or who cannot mind their own emotional boundaries, it must be a horror. I am not sure whether my conversation partner in the Alsterseid Cafe wants to know that much detail and it would be far from me to violate her boundaries. But she should want to know since she claims to be working for prostitutes rights. And those prostitutes allegedly are in situations very different from mine. Either sold by human traffickers or made available for paid abuse or they are letting themselves be raped every day due to being pressurized for their families or to avoid starving. I am the single exception and the whole debate is not about me. Let the few German whores who are in control of their own lives do whatever they want. But all these poor young girls from Eastern Europe, how can you trivialize that? Surely something must be done. Yes, something must be done. Whenever I encounter a colleague who feels trapped in her situation who cannot say no, neither to her family nor to encroaching customers that want to get the most out of their 30-year-olds, then my heart bleeds. And if I did not care, I would be worried about my own emotional sanity. I tell her about alternative options in sex work, about other places of work where the customers are more amenable, techniques for distancing and conducting conversations, professionalizing, specializing and building a regular customer base. And sometimes I do find that a woman is not suited for a job where she is directly exposed to urgent emotions and needs of their clients of any gender. If they worked as a geriatric carer, a nurse or in a call center for customer complaints, it would break them too. And those who regard sex as something sacred that can only be had within a stable relationship or for making children would clearly not be happy doing sex work. I wish that these people can find alternative occupations and I give contacts to qualified counseling services that can work out individual transition plans. But there is one thing I would surely not want to do, forbid them from doing sex work. If I try to save anyone by force, stop seeing them as an individual with agency and try to protect them from their own decisions, I would be no better than all those that pressurize them. No active colleague, male or female, however bad their situation was, has ever said to me, please criminalize me, criminalize my customers and let's have a few more police raids because surely I will then soon feel better. Criminalization and prohibition to work, whether they are dressed up as protection or otherwise, are not just an inconvenience, they lead to tough fines or prison terms. The small number of sex workers that do call for stricter and more discriminating regulation of the trade are mostly figuring that their competition will be hit harder than they themselves. Regarding the debate outside the industry, where calls for containment or abolition of sex work have been voiced for years, I believe that a sizable number of agitators are trying to impose their personal, moral or ideological sensitivities under a guise of concern. While it was openly said throughout much of the 20th century that society had to be protected from our deviant and scary immorality, there has fortunately been a change, at least in this country. Even for minorities, it is now accepted that the personal freedom can only be curtailed where someone else is notably impaired. Criminal law in Germany is no longer used openly to regulate moral standards. This is why the arguments of prostitution opponents have become more subtle. We are no longer dangerously insane, only naive and manipulated, and instead of society, it is now us that have to be protected. But the favourite ways of protection are much the same as before. Special treatment in criminal law, comprehensive police checks, confinement to state-controlled brothels, and most of all, the population should be prevented from being confronted with our existence through non-prostitution zones and prohibitions on street walking and advertising. I know from many conversations that many people really do mean well with us. People who are confronted with pictures of young girls in distress and believe it when someone tells them that this and only this is what a sex worker looks like. They believe that coercion, violence and adversity are part of the system of prostitution and that selling bodies, as they call it, is inextricably linked with an injured soul. These people are completely taken by surprise when real living whores are out, protesting in front of rescue industry events with fliers and banners rejecting a patronisation that is celebrated as a cure inside. But we only want to help you. Hang on, you don't even want that? If someone wants to take the well-being of sex workers to their heart, they must go beyond blind, something must be done, activism. They must look and listen. And they must include people like me, the alleged rare, privileged, exceptional cases who carry out their jobs professionally and with mutual respect between them and their customers, sometimes for many years. Those who adequately negate our perspective and the diversity of our experience as irrelevant are missing the opportunity to understand how the challenges of the industry could actually be solved. We disprove the convenient assumption that exchanging sex for money as such were the problem. Only then can the collective indignation about the fate of those affected by violence and poverty, which truly does exist, be turned into strategies to really improve the living and working conditions of all sex workers. That would make so much more sense than furthering social discrimination and stigma. And now something about my personal story from the chapter that's called The Story of You. So you work as a dominatrix? Most people picture a dominatrix as a woman who takes a whip to her customers who loudly reviles them while staying dressed in patent and leather and mostly buttoned up to the neck. Sometimes that is indeed what I do. Sometimes I am the one who is getting a good beating. Sometimes I have wild and filthy sex with my paying guests, maybe as part of role play in a sexy secretary outfit or wearing nothing but high boots. In some of my paid encounters, all of this can happen. Sometimes I let myself get banged in swinger clubs or porn cinemas or I assist a man in his first experience with another man. Some of my customers only know my voice as I lead them into erotic hypnosis via phone, Skype or audio file. My sex work career started in a peep show. I have experience in various brothels and SM studios, in apartments, as an erotic masseuse, in sex parties, as a phone and webcam sex performer and as an escort. In recent years, I have mostly worked in BDSM, fetish and role play. My current target group, therefore, are mostly people who in a wide sense have sexual interests outside the norm. The job title that my customers have established for me is Bizarre Lady. But this word is hardly known to anyone outside the paid SM sex scene. That is why I tend to reply, yeah, yeah, to the question about the dominatrix when I am not in the mood for lengthy explanations. But this is actually just the description of a small part of my work. I always find it strange if people assume that I am privileged because sexual intercourse is not always the focus of my work, so that I do not have to spread my legs for every customer. At the same time, these people pity those poor other prostitutes who, of course, are so often confronted with the depraved desires of their perverted punters. What is it then? Are special requests a privilege or an imposition? The significance of the answer to this question cannot be overestimated. The answer is, it depends on the personal comfort zones and individual boundaries of the person providing the service. From the outside, nobody can know or even rule which practices with which customers are okay or not for an individual provider. There are no generally valid standards or rules what sex workers should or would do or not do. Some kiss their customers, some actually enjoy doing this. For others, this is unimaginable. Some find anal sex totally relaxing but are not interested in role-play and some do not like their feet being licked because they are ticklish. I, for one, do not enjoy entertaining drunken tourists in amusement areas, but for others, this target group is a welcome source for easy money. One of my dominating colleagues considers it highly amusing to torment their male playmates until they break down completely but woe if they should want to wear ladies' lingerie in the process because if the customers have to take on a female role in order to be humiliated, their image of women is unacceptable to this female colleague. In a general sense, customers' witches are to be regarded as neutral and cannot be judged. If an adult and mature person can be found who can sense to put these fantasies into reality for a fee, great. When some service providers sometimes or more often overstep their own boundaries and go along with things that are not good for them due to external, most economic constraints or interior convictions or beliefs, this is neither desirable nor a part of the sex work system. And that is not limited to our industry either. So much about my personal development or work. Of course, there is much more in the book and I am open to questions of all kind after the reading, personal, private questions about my everyday work experience. But I would like to go on to the political situation and mostly to the Prostitution Protection Act, which came to force in 2017, which was installed to regulate sex work. There is a large difference between decriminalization and legalization. The sex work movement worldwide is calling for decriminalization. That is an abolishment of special laws and an introduction of sex work into the normal legal system. What we get instead partly and in Germany since 2017 is the legalization in the sense of further paragraph, further laws that are often discriminating and often don't really help. The Prostitution Protection Act and its core has an obligation to register all sex workers, all sex workers have to register and a non-anonymous health counselling that is also obligatory. And the second core is an obligation to brothels to obtain concessions. And one condition they have to fulfill is to register all the sex workers and to surveil them because the integral sex workers are extremely hard to get hold of and other than by threatening the brothel to restore their concession if unregistered sex workers work there. So that's the much easier way to control them. So I'll read about the obligation to register because that is the item that we criticize the most. It contradicts EU law. It contradicts the general data protection regulation where data on sex work can only be used and a very strictly regulated conditions can not be registered otherwise and data about professional sex work is very personal. Obligatory registration and whore passes. While we are still legally discriminated against and socially stigmatized through numerous special rules in criminal regulatory police or foreigners' law, as long as we are denied equal treatment with other professions and whore remains an insult, we are fully justified to seek anonymity to protect ourselves. This protection is taken away from us if we are obliged to register with administrative authorities which goes far beyond what could be imposed through normal means of commercial law. In return, the state will take us and our data into its tender, caring hands. Just to make it clear, this is not about a requirement to register as a resident nor about the obligation to disclose one's income for tax purposes or this naturally applies to sex workers anyway. Neither is this about registering a business because sex work is not approved as a business even though business tax has to be paid on top of sales and income tax. By its nature, sex work as a highly personal service, as it's called, is not a business but a freelance occupation just like the one of a therapist or artist. But approval as a freelancer in commercial tax and building law is denied to us as well. In tax terms, sex work is accounted for as other income and instead of finally integrating our profession into the legal system and thus making another step towards legal approval, new special rules are created. Germany's so-called Prostitutes Protection Act of 2017 creates a whole database which is bad enough in itself and with it, it makes every one time or occasional sexual service for financial gain subject to registration. A definition that goes far beyond the requirements of registering a business which has to be aimed for profit over an extended period of time. The definition of sexual services in paragraph two of this act is contradictory, including sexually related, sadistic or masochistic acts irrespective of whether physical touch or gender intercourse between the involved persons might occur. On the other hand, the law says that performances of an exclusively depictional nature where no other person present is involved in an active sexual way are not regarded as sexual services. Does that mean that I am very much permitted to masturbate on a sofa in front of my fully clothed guest without having to the police storm out the premises only for the situation to change if I grin at him and call him a little, lecherous pig? Nobody knows. It's just a bit of water. This interpreter is having one too. Registration as a prostitute comes with an obligatory, anonymous health counseling. The registration is to repeat it every two years and the health counseling every year for sex workers between the age of 18 and 21 both is repeated at double frequency. Documents providing the registration and participation in health counseling have to be carried at all times next to one's ID card or passport. What fun if the hall pass with this photo should fall into the hands of a stranger either because a purse is stolen or at a back check in a club. Through the photo, the use of an alias on the hall pass becomes useless. Our right to inviolability of the home is impeded as well. Sex workers who want to receive their guests at home have to expect an inspection visit by the authorities. Just imagine that. A callboy advertises to a gay community and occasionally has a discreet visit by customers while the wife is away in the office and the children are at school. At dinnertime, when wife and children are present, of course, and maybe guests or superiors of the wife as well, there is a knock on the door. Inspection visit to the Prostitutes Protection Act. Are you, Mr. P? Show us proof of registration and your health card, please. Are any other prostitutes working here without a proper license? Hang on, I can hear voices in the kitchen. We'll have to check that. A nightmare for sex workers who are not out to everyone in their social contacts and to those of their relatives and friends. Checks of the private home which is normally protected by constitutional law or a right of access at any time, rather than normal business hours, would never be possible via commercial law. Such an incursion into the basic rights of a profession is only possible through special law. This is about protection, not about protection, but about total control. An obligation to register turns us into objects of further ingressions into our rights. And the last chapter, the political outlook, there is no way of dressing up the current fundamentally misguided legislation which leads to the question what the future of sex work could look like politically, socially, and personally for me. The main focus, in my opinion, has to be on the abolition of the discriminatory special treatment by law that sex workers and their surroundings are subjected to. This is about the respective parts of criminal and regulatory law, as well as a repeal of the unspeakable prostitutes protection act. In many places, non-prostitution zones create a de facto occupational ban and create a massive problem for sex workers. Where the interests of residents, other businesses, and sex workers do come into conflict, pragmatic solutions instead of blanket bans can be found. Further to that, sex work needs to be recognized as a freelance occupation in tax commercial and building law. A regulation of brothel establishments through commercial and industrial protection law must aim to protect the working conditions of sex workers and the legal security of the operators. It must never be used as a means of prostitution containment for moral or ideological reasons or as an instrument of general politics, sorry, and as an instrument of general police surveillance. Any such rules must be developed in close cooperation with people from the industry. Knowledge is power. And there already are outstanding functioning concepts and models for education and professionalization in sex work. Such education project must be supported everywhere. As soon as the voluntary participation in workshops and visits by qualified trainers in brothels have become as normal as today's rates by police, tax inspectors, and other controlling authorities, we will have gained a lot. With all political measures, the intention to take people in sex work seriously instead of patronizing them will be of paramount importance. It is fundamental to recognize sex work as a legitimate choice without reservations and to overcome stigmatization of the living and working conditions if the living and working conditions of sex workers are to be improved. It is time that our contribution to the sexual and emotional well-being of our customers and thus of society is acknowledged as care work. If a person who is about to apply for any job can state in their CV that they had previously been a sex worker on a freelance or regular employment basis without having to fear disadvantages, then I would consider that our goal has been reached. Thank you. That is what I was going to read. And now I'm very much looking forward to your questions, debate, and to what Sarah would like to know from me. Yeah, thank you. Thank you. I've read the text yesterday already and it was very interesting. Yes, the prostitute protection law. I didn't know about that. I had no idea about that. As every person, I have a point of view about prostitution and sex work. But there are a few reality crushes. And for that, thank you very much. I have a few questions, actually. I'm going to use my pivillera. There are other questions too. But now I'm using my privilege to put my question. Is there a claim against the prostitution of sex? Yes. I was part of drawing up a complaint at the Federal Constitutional Court against the Pristitution Protection Act. That was rejected by the Constitutional Court. And they are only exceptionally deal with the law. If you ask them directly, you have to go through the courts, the lower levels of the court system first. And in this case, the Constitutional Court did not make that exception and accept a direct complaint. At the time, the Pristitution Protection Act came to force very sadly because we went to a lot of trouble. So we have to go through the courts now. And I'm not aware that this is already happening, that any colleague has filed a complaint at any court about any such fines that they faced. And then went from the various levels. We'll have to see if that works and how that happens and how it goes. Maybe this is a matter of contract funding. So maybe someone has to go for themselves into the ring and start a lawsuit. I mean, this is not only in the interest of one side, but it's in the interest of everybody. Yes, and we're not at the end. I don't believe that the financial issue is the hardest thing, but it's about outing the involved people. A huge media coverage will follow. It would be good if a fine would be issued. But otherwise, we'll just have to wait and see who of the people that are currently affected, not me, will show up. And of course, it will be those that work on the streets, that are more visible and work in precarious situations. And these are often people, colleagues who are happy to have the whole thing behind them and that maybe have been criminalized in more than one way. I live in the Hamburg area of St. Georg, where I have lots of contact with colleagues who are out there on street walking in the district. There are non-prostitution zones to be dealt with. Some of these people are violating drug laws. So they would say, OK, that's just another fee to be present on site. I don't really care what I pay for. So that's how I see it. And there are often no good alternatives, either. OK, I will start to go through questions. There are few. Statistics. I'll talk about the Swedish model, too, if anyone wants to hear about that. Yes. There were many, many things. Thanks from the chat. So very good. Good. Let's start from the top. Which measurements would you see as? That is, of course, not something that we can store within the trade. It's not just exploitation in sex work. But sex work is one of the kinds of work that do not require formal education. And that way, these people, the non-formally educated, can still earn good money. And due to migration about income disparities, people's status might not be accepted. People that can earn more money, much more than they can earn at home. So you often have a situation where people coming to Germany as a couple, that the husband gets broken down in the construction trade as much as the woman is in the prostitution. I would like a situation where no one has to do anything that damages them. And the only way to achieve that is to eradicate poverty and fight poverty and abolish income disparities and have a more equal society. The first thing I would wish for is unconditional basic income. And in sex work, only people should work who at least feel OK with doing that under conditions that are reasonable. That is very clear. But I don't believe that this only happens in our industry or that can only be solved within our industry. I see it the same way. I think of very different industries, maybe meat industry, construction industry. Yes. This is not only to see in itself, but it's societal. Yes. And what is specific to us is that extra problem of discrimination and stigmatization and there is further pressure. If that is applied to people, if people can be exerted by saying you are a whore and you cannot go anywhere else now, of course, that is how it goes, that people try to exploit. If they exploit, then they try to also isolate those people and the affected people. And I cut them off from their support systems, from their social circles using the argument that these people would never understand. So that, in turn, could be improved by a social change where social work is accepted and no longer stigmatized. So I think that a legal normalization and an introduction, inclusion in normal commercial law and other laws as a freelance occupation, that is one strand that should be followed. And if I had money, which I do not have, I would fund campaigns such as the campaign of the AIDS supporting groups that achieved a change and made AIDS an acceptable subject to talk about, and which can be talked about with humor and not so much embarrassment and to have safer sex further. I could imagine that campaigns to treat sex workers with respect could achieve something, but you need the funds for that. And if I look at what happened in Stuttgart a few months ago where the corona crisis was severely abused for a campaign against sex workers, a member of the German parliament from Stuttgart founded a group trying to introduce a prohibition on purchasing sex work in Germany, so prohibition on the buyer's side. And there is a whole tale of other regulations that they would like to introduce as well. So that in Stuttgart created a campaign switch of the red light with slogans that I don't even want to repeat where sex workers and their customers were degraded in a way that was worse than happens in our trade, even those that have completely lost any sensitivities, any reason. So if money was put in such campaigns, I'd consider that a helpful. Yeah, I've seen those campaigns and it was very cringy. Yes, all we can do is... This was very horrible. Let's go on. Now, my heart is beating a lot. Numbers. So, how do you see in the... Beyond the sex workers, how many men, women, non-binaries are there and what I'm interested in is also... That's what's the question from the audience. My question is, are there numbers? You always talk about... Enforced prostitution. Enforced prostitution. And there are people who do it on a liberally way, liberally and those whose passports are rubbed and something. Oh, yeah, there's a lot to say there. Now, about the distribution of genders, there's figures, numbers are always changing and not very reliable, but about 80% cis women, 10% men and 10% other diverse genders of some form can be found. That is a very rough figure according to my knowledge. My personal perception, I can hardly say, because my perception is surely my sample is not representative as far as my personal network is concerned. I know mostly women because I am not really part of the street walking community. I know male sex workers mostly that are involved in the professional associations, but mostly women. And regarding numbers on voluntary sex work, I think it's very important to distinguish between self-determination and self-realization, which is because there are often different measures put upon sex work compared to other professions. I am one of the people that really realize their desires in sex work, but that is not a precondition for a self-determination in sex work. So someone who says, OK, I don't like that job that much, but it is the best way I have for a work life balance that is OK for the income I can achieve and compared to other options. So under these circumstances, sex work, too, has to be legal or acceptable as a choice, as long as we live in a capitalist system as we do. So if I cannot choose between different jobs, I would have to choose to earn my daily bread. Then I have to be able to decide for something that I maybe don't find great, but I guess that I opt for because the alternatives aren't any better either. And then regarding the other side, the share of actual crime, criminal exploitation, human trafficking, human trafficking for sexual exploitation as the legal term was, that was then renamed to enforced or coerced prostitution into Prostitutes Protection Act. I think per year in the last few decades, we've had about 100 convictions in red light criminality, as it's called, and that includes exploitation of prostitutes and that is one paragraph. Pimping is another paragraph, then enforced prostitution, which used to be called human trafficking for sexual exploitation. We have a few hundreds investigations and below 100 convictions from the courts and the statistics of culprits versus victims is, well, we have about 100 victims. Of course, there is an unknown figure which no one knows and people like to claim that this is so astronomically high that 99% say of all sex workers are in enforced prostitution. That, of course, is complete nonsense. If you have the 10% of those who decide for themselves Yes, so let's assume that there is an unknown figure that maybe is about as high as the unknown figure in other sexual transgressions, rapes and so on, which has an extremely high unknown number because these are extreme but also very stigmatized events and there are very few convictions. That's about one conviction in 20 cases. So let's assume that of these 100 victims, from these 100 actually convicted victims, we can conclude that there are 2,000 per year. And let's assume that we have an estimated number. We still haven't any exact figures. There are figures from 60 to 400,000 instead of 1,000 that are given. So let's assume we have 200,000 to keep it simple. So then we have 2,000 cases within 200,000 sex workers. That would be 1%, including all the gray areas. So for actual criminal exploitation of any kind, that is far away from what people like to claim. Yes, totally. So this is a gang with numbers. We don't have any reliability, but this is what I deduce from what I can see. And in my time of work, I've been doing this for, I didn't get the number of years. So cases of criminal exploitation, I only got to know about through counseling services, that to explicit counseling, if I follow court cases as an observer, or through my work in the professional association, the colleagues I know, and so on. So this is not a phenomenon that in any form represents the everyday experience of sex workers. And yes, then also I believe that, of course, this will be a bell curve. There will be those that say, okay, this is great. I love my job. And on the other side, there will be people that really are exploited. And then there'll be a large middle ground where those people are regarded as a job. And it depends on whether the team I work with, whether there is a war in the internal war, how what the, whether people work in an agency, how good customers are screened. Many factors are involved. And that's what I can say. That's my impression. When I started to engage politically, which took a long time, for years I was just working along and found the whole thing rather normal. And then I heard from all sides, oh my God, people are being exploited and changed to walls. And I thought, my goodness, which world am I living in? And then I worked with, got in touch with many colleagues and asked myself, what do they mean? Am I blind? And many of this is simply propaganda. These are stories that are often invented because they are gruesome. And because stories like that stick much more than a normal professional career. That's the banal truth of it. And I think and Nina has been working for 25 years. I can now add from her website. There's a great movie from Lena Morgan-Roth, another protagonist who, which is a great movie because it shows the banality of everyday, of the, of the everyday working. So you have Lena reading the paper, writing the underground, making calls and sometimes dealing with customers. I think this is a fantastic movie. And I can really recommend it. I really recommend it. Sex worker, sex worker in Germany is the title of the movie and Lena Morgan-Roth is the protagonist. And she is working in computer science. Now, which was her study. There I remember you said you have links and maybe you want to say your Twitter handle? Yes. I will gladly add my Twitter handle, it's undinederivier where there is no accent in the Twitter handle. That's my name on Twitter. And I thought I could post it to the chat somehow. I will post a small list of links on my Twitter account. There's a link to my book and another book that I collaborated in with feminist perspectives on sex work and ways to support us and our accounts, the professional association on Twitter, Facebook and such. Oh, sorry, I mentioned Facebook. I'm not on Facebook, but the association does have a presence there. There are also ways to support us by sharing, following and how you can get in touch with more people and support. So undinederivier on Twitter. As soon as we're done, I'll post that on Twitter. We have 12 more minutes. There's some more questions. What is a little about what you said in the last three sentences? I try to... Sort it. The one is about how to ally, things with the police. Yeah, how many women are your Swedish model? We talked about this earlier and positive examples from other EU countries. I think the one very important... Well, there's interesting questions. But I would ask you for shorter answers. I think we could talk all afternoon and evening together here. It's very interesting. How to ally? Yes. How can I be a good ally for you? How do I get into contact with sex workers to reconsider their... What they want? Yes, how to ally? Well, for one thing, the links that I'm going to post on Twitter are helpful to follow us and read more about us. And what I find very important is the difference between a rescuer and a supporter, or a savior and a supporter, because I like to rage against the so-called rescue industry. And that's a very simple summary. If you look at the dramatic triangle here, there is a dysfunctional relationship model between rescuers, culprits and victims. It needs all three parts to keep the game going. So if those that are interested, there is a good Wikipedia article, the dramatic triangle or the Rama Drake in Germany, I don't think the English Wikipedia title says interpreter. And many people want to stay within that triangle because they identify as rescuers or saviors and because they need this for their identity. So they're worried that the victims should not exit from their victim role because then the others might be moved to the culprits corner perhaps. So the task is to get out of that dramatic triangle and stop this game. And good allies are keeping that space clear and use their privileges to give us our voice and to get us out of our marginalized situation and that doesn't apply just to sex workers. They stand back and let these people take the stage. And I've seen that so much when I started getting engaged. There were wonderful people who had a standing who had professionals who were asked as speakers in conferences or to write books. They said, I'm not going to do this but I know someone who can do it. And that touches me and brings me to tears sometimes. That is incredible. So that is very helpful. And also to talk about it and if there are any dead hooker jokes in the surroundings, please stop them from doing that, please. I think this is like with all marginalized groups. Yes, exactly. Especially also here in chaos, there are a lot of marginalized groups. Most of them. Remember some. Yes, the part of women who you serve. I have fewer women as customers, but they do exist. Often as part of a couple. That is quite frequent. That couples are visiting me, but women alone do visit me increasingly, in fact. Okay, thank you. Yes, I don't really know what is behind it. Just briefly, I would like to also say that from 5 p.m. today, we have an assembly, the red light hacks. And every evening we have a one hour ask the sex worker round table and I will be in there from 5 p.m. And Dennis too, who talked about sex work. He'll be involved. And from 6 p.m. we will continue with how to be a good client, Q&A with some colleagues. I think I'll stay on for that too. So if you want to be involved with that from 5 p.m. in our assembly. And also the Swedish model very briefly at its core is the prohibition to purchase sex work. So the demand side is criminalized, which is complete nonsense, of course, because that would also make work as a sex worker very much more difficult or impossible. Screening your customers makes, leads to customers no longer disclosing their identities. And sex workers are then forced to work in hiding and the structure then is transformed. We know this in Hamburg and the district of St. Georg. There is an ordination to prohibit contact, which forbids prostitutes from getting in touch for working. So customers, oh, that forbids people from getting in touch. So that people that want to avoid being fined are staying away and the only ones that remain are those that don't care and who maybe are more difficult as customers for other reasons, connected reasons. So the contact has to be very quick. The initiation of sex work, finding a location is very hard. Any kind of support is prohibited by the Swedish model. So it's very hard for sex workers to find a residence because no one wants to risk guests from being received because the landlord is then prosecuted as a pimp. So sex workers supporting each other, making control calls, telling each other where they are going, which car they are getting into, they are then charged with pimping because they've supported each other. So if someone uses their money to support parents in need of care or children or partners that have become unemployed, then these partners or children could be indicted with pimping. So only the sex workers that 100% exit from the trade will receive support. It's impossible to say I want to take on another job and maybe on the side continue with a bit of sex work. That's impossible. Counseling services are not allowed to hand out condoms because that is furthering support of prostitution. So it's a whole clusterfuck. And Sweden is selling this model worldwide as a panacea. And we really say thanks, but no thanks. And then I would say the last question. So there are a lot of interesting questions. And you can come to the happening and ask your questions. And maybe I will come too. On which political areas do you have concrete demands? Is it just federal or statehood? Yeah. And thank you. Everyone, I have demands for everyone. This prostitution, the Prostitutes of Protection Act, of course, has to be repealed. That is a demand to the German government. But the individual communes that implement this law are treating this very differently. Hamburg has established its own authority that really tries to implement the Prostitutes of Protection Act in a way that is as good as possible. But they have to implement a restrictive law. In other communes, it was taken over by the police directly who have been compiling databases on halls anyway without legal foundations. Now using that law to get rid of undesirable brothels where it was not possible before by perhaps inventing more and more conditions, make it impossible to do the work. So different communes and different federal states in Germany have different fights. And we somehow just saying we have to repeal that law. And the other special laws that are about very different questions at the city level, perhaps that happens everywhere in principle. OK. Fine. We have two more minutes. How good is the networking between sex workers? Can you do like a general statement? Well, personally, I regard that networking as very, very good. Of course, there are corrections within our association to this is a huge and very varied bunch and very democratic grassroots democratic. And I am a member of other networks that are not organized in this way. I think the collegial atmosphere is very good. And I have many friendships within sex work. Most of my friends are either sex workers or kind of kinky. I myself, I'm a sadomasochist. And I have lots of contacts there to people that at least are positively inclined towards sex work. And that works very, very well, much better than you might assume from the outside. Yeah, as usual, with all kinds of associations, you have people and, yeah. And Dina, I bow before you. And thank you very much for your lecture, for your answers. On the many questions, I thought it was very, very interesting. And keep up the good work. To everyone else, please come to the board and ask your questions. And, yeah, get into contact with the colleagues of Dina. And tomorrow from 2 p.m., I have another event which you will find in the schedule to help. And otherwise, I hope to see you at five.