 Over 100 Boko Haram commanders and fighters surrender to the Nigerian army in Boronu state. However, how repentant are these bandits? And reactions are still trailing the interview done by former military head Rahim Fabangira. Of course, we'll be having conversations on that to stay with us because this is plus politics and I am Mary-Anna Cole. Another Chibok girl has been rescued from captivity. Boronu state governor Babagana Zulm has announced that the rescued girl, Ruth Kbogu, returned with a Boko Haram fighter husband and two kids she delivered while in captivity. According to a statement signed by Zulm spokesperson, Ruth and her apparently repentant husband surrendered themselves to the Nigerian military on July 28 at a location in Barma. In April 2014, we remember that about 276 students of the government's girls secondary school in Chibok, Boronu state, were kidnapped by Boko Haram terrorists and still on this Boko Haram terrorist matter, the Nigerian army says top Boko Haram commanders and fighters along with their families have surrendered to its troops in Operation Hadinkai. We're joining us to discuss this is Dennis Amakri, he's a former assistant director of the DSS and we're also being joined live by telephone by Chinadu Ohonda, he's a retired colonel. Thank you gentlemen for joining us. Thank you very much. Great. Colonel, I'm going to start with you because you're a retired colonel in the army and then we're talking obviously about how the army is processing these so-called repentance Boko Haram members. Now I'd like to take your mind back to earlier this year where the same Nigerian army complained about Boko Haram members who were given some form of amnesty and pardon, who still went back as informants to Boko Haram. So the first question is how do these men process when they come and say they're repentant or they have deserted Boko Haram and they're asking for some form of mercy. What should be the process in which these people are, and I know that for different uniformed organizations there are different processes, but for the army is it a thorough job that is being done when these men show up and say that they're repentant? So can you hear me? Yeah, I'm hearing you. Yes, go ahead. Go ahead. Am I to comment? Yes, please. Okay, those commanders that they claimed have surrendered to the army and the army happened to have taken them on missing and they even came with one of the chief of girls and they are asking for forgiveness. Well, the truth is that if they have been, they have surrendered, they ought to go for what they call questioning, what they call intelligent questioning, to know more about the details of their surrendering and what is in their laws to surrender. Why is it that they are surrendering? Let them know, but the truth is that if they have come to plead and they want to, Nigeria as a country to forgive them and so on, they ought to undergo some questioning. First of all, to know their strength, where they are, the number of girls that they captured, how many of them that are still alive, those that are there, where are they? Have they? We smell bad, some have they moved from one location to the other, so all of them put together to get this, but in a question of just apologizing, asking for forgiveness, no, that shouldn't be the basic. Which the governor also, you know, the governor took one of the girls that has two keys now for him and to the parents, and they've joined the parents of the girl and the girl has joined their parents and so on. So most of the time those ask questions, if it truly what it's supposed to be, so our military should capitalize on what they will get out of those people that are surrendered. They should know exactly what to do and know their locations and so on, so that this portion of surrender and asking for forgiveness should come up and let them know exactly what to do. Let me push you. The acting general officer commanding the 7th Division and the commander of sector 1 Brigadier General Abdul Wahab at Delokum. During his visit to the Boko Haram enclave or rather where the Boko Haram members were received, I'd like to just quote exactly what the reports say. He said that the decision of these men to drop their arms and come out first is highly commendable. He also goes ahead to say that they should also try and talk to their brothers and their colleagues in the forest to come out and embrace a new life of peace and rehabilitation. He also spoke through an interpreter which we know because these people do not necessarily speak English but then we also record that these men got some form of donations from the army. They distributed new clothes, assorted food, groceries and toiletries to the terrorists and their families. I'm really thinking about it if it were anywhere else in the world and a group of terrorists who have killed many people for over a decade, slightly over a decade, show up. Do you think the US Army, or let's not even go too far, just around the corner, would be giving them food items and giving them clothes instead of questioning these people, where they have been, what they've been up to and why they're here but what we see is more of a welcome party. So I'm still probing. Why is the army not doing the necessary and why are we having such a media parlay of sorts where they're giving terrorists and their families food and clothes? Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying they can't do it but should that be the first thing that is being done? Let's keep the governor out of this. The governor is not a military person. He does not understand the processes of debriefing or trying to interrogate a terrorist. But should this be what is making our headlines today in a country where we're facing this kind of terrorism? Well, you can't say the army is not doing the necessary things because the army, there is a department that ought to call the man, not really arresting him but putting him in a data situation and getting more information from him. And I believe the army will be doing that. They will not just release him or let him walk away like that. They will have to rehabilitate him, keep him together and ask some pertinent questions that they will use in further walking. So I believe the army will do that but not that they will just leave him like that. That is it. Let me come to you, Mr. Makri. You obviously work with the DSS or worked with the DSS and you are a security expert. Questions have come up as to why we have so many of these men coming back. And you know the saying once bitten twice shy we should be very security conscious as to the fact that these people, we have had people like this show up and say that they're repentant and still taking for one intel to the guys wherever they are in the forest. Why should we trust this says? And the same question I asked Conor, why are we somewhat welcoming them with clothes and food? These men are terrorists, repentant or not? We are not supposed to welcome them. We are not supposed to welcome them because this has happened before. Before Governor Zulum came into power, there was another governor. I can't remember his name or credit, but there was this kidnapped girl who came in with her husband, a terrorist who married her, apparently raped her and then converted her into his wife. At that time, nothing was really done but they welcomed the girl and after some days I think the man ran back into Boko Haram, actually. So now that we're having this same thing repeat itself, I think there should be some kind of procedure whereby you process these people very well. They cannot kill people and do all kinds of things and then when they come we open. I know that we are battle weary. We've been fighting this for more than a decade and they are also very, very tired and despondent. That's why they are coming out to come and surrender. But we have to be very, very careful. Where are the arms that they surrendered with? I didn't see any arm. Instead, they came in there with placards and the placards, some of them are illiterates and this is well-written English, saying Nigerians, please forgive us. Who wrote it? Do they interpret it for people to write or how did this come about? See, we don't want to give any benefit of doubt to what is happening here. It is a good woman that terrorists are surrendering but let them surrender properly if actually they are surrendering but we don't want to have them come in the air under the cover of some kind of guise and then tomorrow the next thing you will see them attacking because then you take them into your house and then you never know what they can do to you. I'm also curious as to the mindset or the psychological state in which the girl that has returned and her children are in because they've been away for years. And she's now a woman, she's not a girl anymore and we have also seen in the years, over the years that there have been girl bummers we have seen girls come and bum in different parts of the northeast. So again, and I'm not in any way trying to profound any theory but what processes should this girl go through too? I mean she needs to go through a psych evaluation but how are we certain that these girls has also not been brainwashed and let's also talk about what should be done to these men especially those who have the one who showed up as her husband who probably slept with this child when she was under age. Shouldn't he be undergoing some form of jail time for child molestation and he's also on the one hand a terrorist. Well the thing is this, for the girl when she comes there I think they will take her out for some kind of psychological evaluation rehabilitation and then of course talk to her a lot the security agencies especially the DSS will have a lot together from this girl because she's been with them for years she knows exactly what is going on there but for the guy that that man is a fighter he's been there I think number one they should isolate him isolate him and then of course debrief him properly just like what the colonel said debrief him and then of course ask him pertinent questions and because he is a big source of information to the security agents now that he has come out and for the rest of them I think they should all be quarantined somewhere and then interrogated one by one you don't bring them and start giving them food and clothes and everything and then make them feel like let's go back later we'll come back again I don't like that approach of what's going on right now one more question before I go back to the corner I also noticed that in all of this conversation the man was just referred to a man as a man we do not know who he is we don't see his face we can't tell who exactly he is but we see a picture of the other men who have surrendered somewhat and their families we've heard that they have families of course the families might be behind the cameras but who are these men can we name them can we trace again I think I'm going to have this discussion it's going to have to go back to the corner but I'll ask you all of these other men that we rehabilitated and gave them some form of amnesty why have they not been able to trace or tell us where they came from why have they not been able to take the army to where they are where the main people are look at these group of people trained with taxpayers' monies rehabilitated some of them and even half of them went back so why have these people not necessarily been able to take us to where these Boko Haram members are at least their uncle well congratulations to the army we hear that the Boko Haram leader was finally killed but we need to be able to find these other people why is it taking so long I may not be in the army but we're curious these are questions that people are asking I think that is part of the process that I think the army is going to go through I believe strongly that the commanders are going to go through that but I salute them get all the information you can get from them get all their names and which part of Nigeria they came from because some of them might even be foreigners and if they are foreigners they are ready for deportation to their various governments so there is a lot of processes to be carried out under this particular situation and I hope that the military is doing that back to you Kano let's talk about the fact that just as Mr. Makri has raised we have the guns that are running through the Sahel and we know that even the bandits of them are not Nigerians of course when we profile these people we will definitely know those who are insiders and those who are outsiders again it could be that the Boko Haram fighters have had their resources depleted and loopholes have been plugged so they cannot have access to food they cannot have access to the things that they used to have and this could also be a strategy to get food I mean look at the first thing we gave them food how are we dealing with this issue of the arms struggle around the Sahel don't forget the US Senate recently put a pause to the sale of arms and the helicopters to Nigeria if for example the army wants to move in on Boko Haram how did they go about it let's also not forget that their arms and ammunition are more sophisticated than what we have well it's clear that they have cut off their line of communication which means they won't be getting logistics and all that things that they will use in prosecuting the world the best the army can do is to know their present location of their strength not exactly what they are made up of you know especially those of us who said the mistake the army kept making all my colleagues have been making is this question of killing them and giving them shy and so on what we call shy you know and later they go back to their domain to attack knowing fully when the army has good so what we expect is that they should be isolated and certain pertinent questions will be asked and ask which should be used to look at where they are and this is the army has all the equipment to use do they, do they really have the equipment because we're still expecting more equipments of ammunition from the US I mean there has been a sale but when you say we have all the equipments do we really have it you see they can have the generation of where they are and know exactly what to do they use the the air force and the infantry to at least know exactly what they are doing so where I would like to know the army knows what to do I said they are using tools to just perpetrate this work going on if not they know exactly what to do with this present it is very robust and sure that they have caught all their lines of communication and they require a lot of this thing so I want to quote again what the army chief said he said the Nigerian army has resolved to intensify it's both a kinetic and non-kinetic approach towards the ongoing fight against insurgency in order to leverage on the knowledge of Musa Adamu and Usman Adamu also with the current wave of turnout by terrorists to enable her that's the army achieve both short and long-term counter-insurgency gains in the northeast so explain to the layman what these kinetic and non-kinetic means you see whatever the chief said I know there is an ongoing war ongoing in caution against the bandits against both in Zafara and not east so they must continue the momentum and the momentum must continue that must be high so let them see what the conditions they can gather because those are the primary ways of doing things we can't do it as a good thing because you have seen that they surrender to the people and so on but they should be careful in holding them knowing exactly what they want and how to go about their mission interesting I mean I want to go back to the issue of the kidnap of these girls and the kidnaps that are continuously happening let's not forget that Kaduna seems to have become a target of sorts and then of course it's still happening schools have been getting these bandits coming in and out and let's not forget that the bandits also are totally different sets of people different sets of terrorists from Boko Haram now I saw a video I can't remember who sent me that video of the state of these schools where these students have been kidnapped or are being kidnapped and I really can't remember who sent me that video and the person said something like these are students waiting to be kidnapped obviously because the schools didn't look like it had a wall the children were obviously naked and open to whatever threats that could come especially at a time like this where schools education is being a target so Mr. Makri what can government do because especially the government of President they came on the wings of putting an end to this scourge this insurgence Boko Haram but now we have a hydro-headed monster and they come under all kinds of names unknown gunmen, bandits there's Boko Haram on one side I mean it's a lot so what is government going to do let's I mean the army already has its plates full what is government doing deliberately we've not heard anything since after the Senate put its foot down to say they're not selling more equipments to us because they want to be certain that our army is not in any way using those arms and ammunition against his own people and the incited cases of human rights abuses what is our government doing to push to show that this war that they're fighting they want to win it well when you look at the schools and how dilapidated they are you know it shows that somebody has neglected those schools now when you also think about what the United Nations have come up with which is the safe school initiative that is something that I think we should have grabbed with both hands it was started with about 10 million dollars and then after that the contributors the government itself was supposed to contribute to some other organizations but you find out that the schools have been there laid bare, no perimeter fencing, no no gates, no light in fact the video you're talking about where there are no doors in some of the dormitories you know it's a situation that is really horrifying so what governments can do and I think the Kaduna State government have started it they have chosen some schools right now all schools are closed about 5,000 of them in Kaduna State and then right now they've chosen some schools where they are strengthening in fact what do I call it admin the security system of those schools now when they finish I don't know whether they are going to decide or whether they want to mega schools where most of the students are going to be moved to those secure schools because we cannot return students back to those schools that are dilapidated and if you move them down there you have to give all necessary procedures and protocol available to those schools that is the schools have to be perimeter fenced there must be an alarm system the students and the community have to be trained on how to counter this when it comes there should be an alarm system to alert everybody and then of course there will be a quick response team not too far away that can calm down there at any moment if any school is under attack this quick response teams I'm sure that we have please don't get me wrong in Nigeria every part of Nigeria there's so many checkpoints with soldiers at these checkpoints so I keep asking every time they say they kidnapped students they took this number of students where do they pass that these security operatives are different checkpoints that are not more than 5 to 6 kilometers away from each other where are these people it really beats my imagination and this quick response is it should not beat your imagination because you know even as a city dweller if you know that in a particular street or in a particular place if you are driving in a city like Lagos you know where the checkpoints are you know where the checkpoints are and then of course if you feel that maybe your car has some problems and they will question you you avoid it and that is what is happening so all those checkpoints that are within eyesight you know they are not there to even look at the kidnapped people and besides most of the kidnapped people from what they've said they take them right into the deep bush you know it is good they are not following the road they follow the bush and go so with all the knowledge you have now response is very very important response in the sense that like I always say it if people are kidnapped we should not allow the kidnappers to rest until we get the students back because they are comfortably taking them, strolling down you know children gradually until they reach where they are going keep them and then start to ask for answer but if they know that there is hope for suits they are following them right behind them and if they too sometimes will say this business is getting out of hand let's forget it Okay, Conal Honda just before we go Mr. Maki spoke about you know the issue of arms and ammunition and I want to ask let's talk about the welfare he also talked about the fact that it's a war that's been happening over a decade now is there something being done about you know the welfare of these people who are in the forefront of fighting this insurgency are they being taken care of is everything they need at their disposal because you can't take a hungry person to fight a war obviously he's going to be thinking about his belly have the issues of welfare being taken care of in the army I know you're no longer serving but of course you do have intel I didn't get your question because it's really heavy ask again what are we doing in terms of welfare and you know the mental health of these men who are fighting in the insurgency and you know the fact that we know that men and the men and officers of the army had complained at some point that they needed certain things to be done for them to be able to win this war is that being done right now you see it's talking of welfare of the members of the armed forces in the north east well the welfare is not good enough because some of their commanders are searching them in the forefront so the issue of if you check what the man in the air force is earning is different from what the man in the army in the same war in the forefront is earning so there must be that between the three arms that is the army, air force are moving but when you look at it they defy in most ways the army is earning a different thing the air force is earning a different thing then you talk of their uniform they are not well treated oh I'm so sorry I think that we have lost Conor Honda but I want to say thank you Conor Honda is a retired colonel in the Nigerian army Mr. Amakri is a former DSS deputy director thank you very much for joining us gentlemen we appreciate it alright we'll take quickly a report because we know that recently there was a report that the senate committee recommended the creation of 20 new states although it was later denied Nigerians had something to say about this we'll take a short break and look at it and then of course we'll wrap up the show right after presently Nigeria doesn't need more states because all those states we are having now there's no resources to manage them there's no even a capital to measure that every state in the sustain which is such they have creating more states is like creating more problems and creating more liability for the whole Nigeria because we are able to create any business in any environment you must measure that the one that you have is already sustained the one that you have already granded and able to support and finance very well but how many states are able to boast that they have paid their salary on their percent the state we have is okay because we are talking of economy we are creating the states even the one we have the government has not funded very well so it's just that we are agreeing to more poverty the one we have if we go to other states abroad americans and the likes they manage what they have they have not managed it the one we have right now we have not be able to satisfy the citizen or the state itself you talk of federalism we're not getting the federalism in the state we have so when you add more it's a more burden for the country itself so if we be able to manage the one we have right now then we can add more states but for now I don't think we are ripe for that sorry I don't think Nigeria need more states because more states is not the problem of the country understand so making more states will not stop the problem of this country understand I saw in the social media yesterday the day before yesterday believe the one that we are into now we can't manage it well and they said that they should have more states for my own self I see the one that we are already having we are managing well that is why we should have agitating for more states but not the one we have how the economy is and everything what we are facing like me I don't think we should try to come back first before talking of adding another state for my own view actually we need more states because the way the situation of the country is going now presently there are some things we need to understand together and create more states so that a lot of people especially like Lagos as a whole the place is shocking up so if there is any way with all this equipment or some other states they are able to tear it and create more states at least the place will still expand we will see you tomorrow on plus politics I am Mary Annicole and have a good evening