 We can also make it, you know like a surprise. Yeah, should we do a surprise draw? All right, so so this fun that the cameras are rolling so it's gonna be a real interview Surprise first one for Sam. I mean we can also Yeah, make it whatever works What what's your opinion on the inclusion of electric bikes to increase the distance? Radius for traveling Okay Shall I do this in English so that you can yes, please step in every year, okay? so I Think e-bikes, they're actually quite popular now. There's like I think it's around 25% right of all bikes Which are more by by price which have been okay. It's more than half now the sales by price but um and We're seeing that they're being used especially Outside of outside of city centers So actually the Netherlands of course, it's a very urban country, but it's also it's quite dispersed in a way There's lots of you know like towns one near each other We sort of semi rural but not quite also in that sense the bike then becomes this very helpful tool And of course it's also helped by the fact that you know that cycling infrastructure. It also works It's not only in the city centers, but in general. So I think that's the the main advantage They also quite good for older people. It's sort of it allows them to continue cycling when they would have stopped But then within city centers you have this debate especially with this speed pedal like you know all about them Which are basically they go too fast. So then how do you deal with those? Yeah, they go actually 45 I don't know what are your thoughts? What are your thoughts on that? Yeah, this e-bike question really interesting They're they're trying to deal with it and they don't quite know how really because right now They're currently for the very fast e-bikes. They've got license plates on them And they have to actually go on the the street and not the bike path Yeah, which which is which is rather weird right because you don't feel any less vulnerable You're just going faster And in the mission of protecting other cyclists where I find it's interesting that perhaps we are putting these These types of bikes going 45 kilometers an hour not quite fast enough to keep up with traffic because going 45 is actually really scary and Research shows that these speed pedal like users in theory they can go that fast, but they don't keep that speed So mode their average speed is much lower as opposed to normal e-bikes that go 25 kilometers an hour Their their average speed is closer to their top speed Right, so people are actually using that that speed and power Nice and broad what actions can be implemented to switch cities traditionally car-based to a bike-based system Contentious I'm going to get in trouble on the internet now no matter what I say so I think It's you Sam gave a gave a story of incremental change even in place like the Netherlands and We saw a graph about how in the Netherlands still it's an automobile dominated society 27% Mo chair by bikes is quite far beyond the next country, which is Denmark. They're at 20 But it that means that most of the kilometers traveled Right, not trips, but clonkers traveled is still up in the 80% range by car Right, so most by car a bit by train and then very few by any other mode because cars travel longer So so if you view it that way now bikes are actually quite a small proportion How do we then change the system with this in mind? I think starting in urban areas is a good bet. I think increment I would say Sam wrote a paper about space and speed right so we have to think in these terms about our cities I would say conquer the space first Even like even if it's free and you put paint on the road. It doesn't cost anything It's only cost political will and perhaps some very angry people Right, but once you get that space then you have a Platform on which you can actually invest money into as you can always upgrade right Upgrade and then that becomes a cost issue That's independent from the politics at that point right so once you gain the space then you can incrementally make it better Perhaps just to elaborate on which I think you will be presenting on if you have time But of course one of the things we discussed earlier was this idea that you know if you have a very sprawled city Well, yeah, it's kind of going to be difficult to cycle in so in this sense That that makes it difficult to switch to a to a completely cycling based system But then we need to start thinking about the combination of cycling plus public transport and and mainly sort of Train train train transit Because then you know you have the cycling to the station and then and then taking public transport And then that can become a good alternative to two car trips But you know the bike on its own it will never manage But if we combine it with the train then yeah, it stands a much better chance Am I doing it you're doing it When odds are against you from a sociological cultural infrastructure And geographical perspective, how do you incorporate? Alternate modes of transportation to society perhaps. There's a good clarification question because we have cycling but then we have cycling Crossed out and then we have alternative modes of transportation highlighted To elaborate on yeah, would they mean cycling or do they mean other things as well? Okay, yeah, and actually that's that's an interesting point is is Cycling isn't isn't isn't the the best mode for the context. It's it's one of a mix of solutions and And just because we're urban cycling and stew research cycling that you know, we shouldn't We should always keep in mind that the best solution is not in that like if everything's a visit the nail and the hammer thing If you have a hammer everything looks like a nail So I think some cycling advocates especially get into that mentality where everything they have bicycles and everything You'd be solved by that But I think as academics as we do a research We see the full complexity of the network and and really I think the direction is going towards how do we combine modes and Integrate the system make the system work better What are some good public transport cities for example? Asian cities So I think that's a good example or Germany, but that's someone looking no Yeah, like lots of these Asian cities. So so I was born in Beijing And and they actually you know Beijing as a city moved from a cycling city really back in the 90s until now which They are now basically a public transport city with the government investing heavily in public transport Although you can see at the same time They're putting the people underground and they're putting the cars on the surface, right? So huge billions and billions in subway, but But they're putting the people who are taking me so where it's underground and the surface level has been expanded to Accommodate more car traffic. So it's it might be a devious scheme You know, it might be the cars winning in this case marketed as a huge public transport And just to so you talk about Beijing you being born there. I'm from Barcelona So that's also perhaps interesting again to highlight your point that you know Cycling is is not necessarily always this goal, you know, like cycling is good because it does other things, but You know, it's not silly the goal in itself is like Barcelona the the modal share so that means in the percentage of trips over a certain transport It's it's much more walking oriented. It's like half of the trips are walking and of course the minute you start encourage cycling it's all very well, but But at some level that is going to come at the cost of walking probably more than Cairo's because ultimately cycling it tends to compete much more with with walking but also with with public transport So in this sense, there is there is this trade-off which needs to be taken into account just last week I was I was in Germany and yeah, the Germans. They're so good at the public transport Which at some level does go a bit against the cycling But one of the things also in Amsterdam is that it's got it's got an okay public transport But it's it's kind of okay And and that that is also. Yeah, that is also an explanation And you sort of yeah, you have to decide what kind of city you you want to be and depending on You know the sort of your tradition the the look of the city the amount of money you have all kinds of All right next one's a doozy a Short for complicated one. Okay. How does the government encourage or deal with clean? Transportation who wrote this question by the government or you mean? Amsterdam such a Dutch situation Okay, and by or deal we mean or deals or deals Okay in that sense Yeah So, I mean, of course, there's all the planning but apart from the the physical planning Yeah, owning a car in Amsterdam is not the cheapest and here the the typical measure which is the one which works Best or is the easiest one to implement for local governments often is is parking, right? So so car parking The minute you you start restricting car parking. Well, yeah I mean people would have to they'll have to figure out some some other kind of alternative So so in a big part of central Amsterdam and even not so central There's there's a permit system. So you need a you need to apply for a parking permit. You need to pay Think it depends on the neighborhood, right? I think it's like Three four hundred euros a year, which is I mean the Dutch are quite rich. So it's not that much for them It's still it's still quite a bit and sometimes there's a waiting list So so in that sense, yeah There is all of that in place, of course, how do you how do you get that in a city which doesn't have all of that? I think that's the interesting question again I'd say probably the best ways to sort of, you know, go for the gradual approach, you know Oh parking costs 20 euros a year next year it costs 40 and of course all of that means it takes a while but But yeah, ultimately it is it is a question of political will and sort of how much can you can you force the system? Before you start getting sort of lots of negative pushback, I think All right, shall we we can we can do a few more you guys enjoying this? Yeah, okay Let us know when you want me to go back to a presentation. We'll probably do another 10 minutes Yeah, I think we have time if we sort of like bang bang. Yeah, okay Okay, a fun one How to optimize parking space for bikes in overpopulated cities How to optimize? What to do when yeah Well, when you're going to Utrecht, are you going to go see the big parking garage under the train station? It's gonna be fun. It's also a great anyone skateboard in here Oh Yeah, okay, it's it's really fun in there with a skateboard But but you're getting in trouble for it. So don't do it, but it's a lot of fun Yeah, there's bike parking situation. I think there's there's so much demand especially around train stations that That part bike parking is in this odd place of being a commodity It's it takes up less space than cars, but it's still taking up space and if you're in the city center, you know The space is very valuable so it Now we get into the the question of how do we how do we encourage sustainable transportation? Which in any normal context, you know would be let's put as much free bike parking as possible To this context where it's competing with walking space. It's competing with living space At the train station really it's it's competing with With also the environmental quality of an area, right? So if you step out of Amsterdam Central Station, it's it's bikes everywhere and And bike parking does have a cost Somehow we don't know exactly what the cost is because there's all these factors that go into it But you know the pricing of bike parking That gets tricky and that you know like it there's there's do you price it even though it's good for the environment? Or do you do you price it? You know just because it's scarce and you want to improve accessibility His bike parking is no good when all of it is full Right and that that's the situation we run into and then the government has to deal with over spilled They have to like take all these bikes away to the bike depot To go and pay them to get your bike back. So it's a tough. It's a tough choice. Do you have any thoughts on that? well one thought is that up to a point at least it I would say it is Self-regulating or partially self-regulating in the sense and this is something which which definitely happens in Amsterdam Which is Often, you know, you want to go to like the central station or for example a neighborhood which which often like the pipe It's also very, you know, it's always very tightly packed with bikes and then what you often do is you You park your bike sort of further away and you end up walking right for the last five ten minutes So in this sense, I mean people and stupid Some of them are But most people you know if there's if there's no bike for the bikes there like they know they will Pack it a bit further away Of course, then the the risk your or the risks your you're encountering is that then fewer people will bike right because you know You're not actively sort of making things as as easy as possible Yeah, but then it's it is this this trade of you say, right? Do you have that pricing as well? Do you use that? I don't know. It's contentious. Do you Do you want to pick one to ask us since you're right here in the front? We got we got four questions Yeah, I mean, I'm thinking this I've seen there's a couple which can perhaps be remixed because they're quite in a similar They're in a similar direction. Give me 30 seconds Yeah, they're pretty similar right put him on the spot now Mm-hmm. Okay. Ask us loudly so I can hear you What is the best way to start cultivating the culture of using bicycles in society? Okay, I can give it a go Yeah, and that one's also very similar to to another one which you had know which was Also, yeah, how to persuade people to use bikes when they have unfavorable conditions of Security infrastructure and culture so so again, I mean, it's it's all in the same direction I'd say then here the question is I mean, of course you can't You can't easily change culture Whatever that is from one day to the next But of course you you can't change the infrastructure in a way So of course, you know, that won't be enough, but it is it is the most logical point to start with that is why it is start with that and It's all I think at At a first level it's all about creating the necessary conditions. So that's an interesting point It doesn't mean that suddenly everyone will start cycling, but it's just simple, you know, the basics in terms of Security safety, they're not in place. Well stuff won't happen But of course how how to get beyond that I think The key for me is to really think from the perspective of people's daily lives So, you know your average person Is cycling going to make sense from there from the daily life perspective like often the problem with cycling planning is it tends to be this kind of Slightly airy-fair, you know, oh, well, you're just planning the infrastructure Oh, yeah, just do a program of like behavioral incentives, blah, blah, blah, but at the end of the day, I mean It's cycling the best way to go and you know buy groceries to take your children to And to school well in Amsterdam for for lots of people it is But you need in order to be able to do that you really need to understand the way that sort of yeah, your average citizen moves around Yeah, it's a bit of a generic answer The soft Measures of being more difficult to change them physical things, right? I found that interesting because in my head, right, you may disagree My head right culture is something that's malleable. It's not physical. So you think it would be easy It like like just just as like upgrading software in a computer, you know, like if we do that analogy, but But but it's I don't think it's a correct analogy And and oftentimes it is like you said the hardware. That's that's ironically easier even though it costs money Like it makes people angry, you know when they see physical change the culture. That's that's tough to research That's tough to change and it's really tough to understand on the different contacts, right?