 of people here and stopping talking and getting ready to listen to a cool presentation. But before that, I'm speaking. Yeah. So, we have Mark Atwood and he's going to talk about open source jobs and he seems pretty cool. He is the cool presentation, but there might be another one next. I'm sure there'll be another one. Who knows? Anyway, big round of applause for Mark. Thank you. So, this is the first time I've given this talk outside of the United States and because it is about employment, there are a lot of localisms and regionalisms. I've tried to extract and change most of the U.S. centric ones out, but I'm sure I missed some. So, translate appropriately for Australia, New Zealand, or wherever else you're from. Like the slide says, my name is Mark Atwood. I have a fancy title, which is the Director of Open Source Engagement at Hewlett Packard, which means mostly I get to come travel around and do this sort of thing. You can email me with questions. My email address is right there. The fact that my email address is easy to find and read is something that I'm going to touch on several times in this talk. HP is very heavily involved in open source, not just in doing things like sponsoring conferences like LCA, but about one out of five HP servers coming out of one of our factories has Linux pre-installed on it. We're not sure, since no one announces the numbers quite this way, but when we scrape other people's ship numbers and announce numbers, we think that we are actually the fastest. We are making more Linux servers per second than anybody else. Well, there are multiple seconds between each one, but yes. It's other projects that HP and myself are heavily involved in are OpenStack and Cloud Foundry. We're part of the KVM Foundation, and we have also just hired Keith Packard, away from Intel, to be the Chief Architect on the port of Linux to the machine. So if any of you are interested in hyperscale computing and or have done Linux kernel hacking, please go talk to Keith and give him your resume. I'm also going to maybe a little bit more meta in this talk than I normally am, since I usually give this talk in small regional schools of people from very impoverished areas, and I give this talk as how to get a job and then how to get this awesome job. And I think probably a significant number of you already have open source jobs, and so instead I want some playoff with you guys as we have some discussion back and forth about it's how to understand how you got that job and how to communicate to other people how to get into this world. And I'm sure some of you don't have open source jobs, please pay attention. I think this is actually a pretty effective way of doing it. You do work, right? So as I said, HP is hiring. The operative URL is hp.com slash jobs. Hiring all sorts of fields and areas. However, I cannot juice or expedite your application. One of the problems and one of the great things about being a truly mind-bendingly large corporation is everything is wrapped around a process and it's not terribly fast. But do please submit your application and your resume. Happiness and success and jobs and career and all good things are not guaranteed. And this talk is a syllabus, not a textbook, which means I'm going to tell you the things that you need to go research on your own rather than spend a lot of time specifically teaching you the things you need to know. The most important word in that phrase for the sake of this talk is the last one, job. It is a job. On the plus side, that means salary and having a career and paying the bills and supporting your lifestyle and supporting your family and having corporate benefits. And that sort of thing also has all the standard downsides of being a job. Hard work, long hours, we have lots of frustrations with co-workers and all the frustrations of working for an employer or corporation still is the case. But working in open source is better than most jobs. Some of the intangible benefits are you actually you will feel really good about the work you do. You pick the right kind of project and you and you actually get a real sense that you're making the world a better place. And then far more practically you're much less subject to corporate whims. A job restructuring, a layoff, a bankruptcy, a change in direction does not screw you up as much as it does if you're working most of the kind of work especially proprietary software development. The other cool thing about open source employment is it tends towards distributed work especially with development of things like get from our friend Linus and the two trillion dollars that we as a society over the last 40 years have spent building the internet you probably don't have to move to San Francisco or New York or Melbourne. But you can if you want to and it actually makes it easier to do that if you want to. When you work in open source you will have really great co-workers. My own experience is as I've had good co-workers and some of my dearest friends including some who are here at LCA I got to know because I worked in open source and this experience seems kind of universal for the people who get involved in it. So now I'm going to talk about some of the things you need to know. The first one is not your technical skills it is your communication skills. You have to learn how to write. You have to learn how to write clearly and you have to learn how to write in English. Even if English is not your first language or the language of your nation the language of technology and the language of software development is English and sadly most is my experience as many people whose native languages English are not as good at it as people who learn it as a second language but you have to learn how to be clear at it. You have to learn how to speak. Even if you want to spend all of your time heads down hacking over some editor you have to actually get up and talk to other people about what you're doing. So I recommend you learn how to do this. Stand up and talk to people with the microphone. You have to learn how to stand up and talk at the head of the table. You need to learn how to talk and communicate when you're sitting around a conference table or over a desk together at a cafe. It can be terrifying for some people. There are places to go to learn how to do it. Do you have Toastmasters in Australia or New Zealand? All right excellent. I figured they were worldwide. That is if you really really want a fast and good way to learn how to do that if you can't don't take to it naturally I do recommend Toastmasters. The next trick is to be reachable. You have to have a public email address. One of the constant frustrations of my job is when I need to reach out to somebody who has said something or has made some comment or made some contribution or made a tweet or something. I can't find their email address. Make your email address findable please. Finally the most important thing on this slide and I'm going to repeat this on several others is don't be a jerk. Your reputation is very hard to change and if you have a reputation as a jerk it gets very hard to work with other people and the way that open source works is you work with other people. From the technical skills step number zero is learn how to program. A couple of times I've met people who want to get involved in this cool thing who don't know how to code. Learn how. Most of you probably do. If you don't, two languages I recommend you start with are Python because it's easy to learn easy to read and lots of things are built with it and JavaScript. JavaScript is possibly my least favorite programming language and true probably for many of you as well however the thing is everywhere. So those are the first two to learn but don't stay there. Learn other languages. Don't fear weirdness. Some that I particularly like recommending are Scala and Erlang and Clojure and this weird language called C and C++. That was strange. In addition the part of learning a language is not just the syntax but learning how to use the debugger and the IDE and print statements in your code is not debugging. Learn how to use Git really well. Git is more than just keeping your code backed up for yourself. Git is actually a collaboration tool. When you use Git right it is one of the things that you're using to communicate with other developers and sometimes that other developer is yourself in the future. And then the final technical thing which I'm going to tell you to go research rather than tell you how to do it is learn how to code to test. Write your code so that Jenkins or some CI system will constantly be continuous integration testing it. As you get forward as you start getting involved in various open source projects the ones that you're going to find most easiest to get involved in are ones that are running continuous integration. If you get involved in one that doesn't do continuous integration once you have enough standing there become a champion for doing CI it does really make a difference. And then back away from hard skills back to soft skills the relationships in your peers we learn from each other it's you will learn things from people who teach you things you don't know and you also learn by teaching them things just explaining a project explaining a problem to someone else is the best way to learn it yourself. The way to find people in meetups hacker spaces schools uni you need a mix of both local people to work with and you also need to learn how to work remotely with remote people and the way you find remote people is conferences like this again the internet one particular site i like recommending to people a stack overflow a question technical question answer site how many of you have a stack overflow account awesome about half the rest of you should probably sign up and again i'm going to reiterate as you're working with people face to face and remotely again don't be a jerk the world is really small as a personal example is several years ago i was the community manager for a system called open shift in fact i presented it here at lca and now several years later i helped put together the open source governance for open shifts competition cloud foundry so it's even when it's competition it's always the honored competition you never get personal you never become a jerk you never really get angry about it the world is small you're always you're going to be working with the same people at different jobs and different projects for decades now to the work here's the catch for getting the job we're going to talk more about getting the job you have to start doing the work before you get the job you can't get the job but then start doing the work and the way you do that is pretty simple you find a project or two or three get hub is full of them you will have your own itches you want to scratch or projects that your friends are working on fix a bug fix a bug in the documentation this will get you involved it'll show you how that project does their cycle does their contribution process and just keep doing that as your skills increase two things are happening your skills are increasing and other people will see that you have those skills once you become pretty um well known enough you will get higher and higher standing in those projects and the uh it turns into a virtuous cycle of both technical work and collaboration your collaboration tools how many of you routinely use irc about half good most open source projects use irc for their real-time work um mostly on free nodes some projects use something else but mostly it's irc um each project has a bug tracker you need to learn how to use some of them are as um not so great as um bugzilla some of them are moderately awesome some of them are great but they're all a little different and you need to learn the one for your project um again i'm going to reiterate learn how to use get it's more than check in check out it's talk to find local get experts use get to talk to yourself use get to talk to people and other product um across your project once it starts to sink into your head you will wonder how you did without um and then the closest thing we have to a silver bullet and it works better in um open source that does in proprietary software development is pair programming that's when one of you works at a keyboard and does coding well um your um pair sits behind you over your shoulder and talks to you about what you're doing and you talk to them about what you're doing and then after an hour you swap positions there's usually a local meetup on pair programming or pair agile programming so you can go practice this if you are good at programming or if you are really smart you're going to find this very very hard to do it is my experience that people who are moderately good at this or just or just starting to take to it very well people with a lot of experience or a lot of smarts hate it but even if you if you don't like it you should do it anyway it will make you a better programmer and let you generate better and more software faster so like i said as you're doing all this two things are happening your skill sets are growing you're getting better at programming you're getting better at your projects and your reputation is growing and it's the reputation that you need to get the job um the way i do this breakdown is portfolio versus resume i have looked at a lot of resumes some of them look great some of them not so great one of them but um the thing is is i've seen people with mediocre skills with really great resumes and i've seen people with really great skills with really bad resumes so i've learned resumes are not entirely trustworthy but a portfolio when you're working in open source software when you go hunting for a job you can point someone at your github account or when you're doing the job interview you can go over code that you've written artists and creatives have been doing this for centuries is now awesome that we as developers can do it as well um i have never met a good programmer with a bad portfolio and i have never met someone with a bad portfolio who is a good programmer work on your portfolio part of that reputation sadly is social media um you do have to be reachable you don't have to dump your entire life onto facebook and post pictures of your kids and compromise your privacy but do be findable and reachable both by email show up on linkedin show up on whatever social media sites work appropriately for your for your interests and for where you live but don't be a complete cipher on then on getting the job how do you find it the cool thing is is once you have some of a reputation as open source developer the jobs will seek you out recruiters now know how to scan through github and they scan through linkedin if you keep those up to date keywords and the projects you're involved in will trip their searches and you will start getting offers kind of magical even more importantly your peers will refer you it's someone who you've worked with for a while on some project will send you an email saying hey my company's got a position open that looks like the kind of stuff you were doing why don't you apply it's usually a big win for both of you because they get a referral bonus and you get a new job it's come to conferences like this you'll notice about half or more of the talks including this one will end with the slide we're hiring is take them at their word is if what that um what that speaker and that company is doing has anything to do with what you're interested in do send in your resume now once that happens you get called in for interview and I'm not going to talk to you about how to do a technical interview because we'll be here for hours there's lots of online resources and other talks on how to do that different companies do that differently um but I'm going to talk I'm going to mention one important thing once you pass the technical interview and they decide they want to hire you they're going to give you an offer letter offer letters is the first step of the negotiation so raise your hands how many of you have ever gotten an offer letter should be nearly everybody okay how many of you counter offered your offer letter about half and I'm very impressed it's almost I'm almost never see a woman raise her hand so congratulations it is my personal working theory that that difference is a significant fraction of the reason of the stubborn income differential between men and women is is that for some women women don't send a offer letter back when you get the offer letter they've decided they want to hire you and now you're dickering over price it's you will dicker over the price to buying a house or buying a car but dickering over the price of your wages over time makes a bigger very much bigger difference in your income and your wealth then saving money buying something counter offer it's kind of terrifying what if they don't like me what if I ask too much there's again lots of resources online and people you can talk to on how to do it but at least send the counter offer back the worst thing that can happen really is well the worst thing happens they withdraw the offer but that's vanishingly unlikely to happen what instead the worst thing will happen is you know for various reasons be large company government agency financial reasons this is the price we have to stick to and even if that's where you end up you're not any worse off and they'll actually be more impressed with you that you're willing to dicker over this sort of thing and be thoughtful about it the other thing i want to talk to it as once you have the offer and you've signed the offer this is something is is these statements are slightly us centric this is something you have to do local research for when you work for a technology company modulo the contracts you sign and the laws of the country you're in they own your brain more or less so if you want to keep working on open source you need to decide how much of the work that you're going to do on open source will belong to your employer and how much of the work in open source is not directly related to the job that you have will still go to your employer in the united states most offer letters and offer contracts have what's called an appendix b where you list all of the intellectual property that you already own that you're not assigning to your employer that you can keep working on most people ignore this part and leave it blank don't keep track of the projects that you work on keep tracks the projects you're interested in keep that appendix filled out and up to date hopefully it will never become an issue but if it ever becomes an issue you'll be glad you had that all set up ahead of time that you continue to own the ip that you generate for the project you work on once you have the job how many of you have worked in 80 hour work week how good did you how well did you do on that in those 80 hours yeah is what happens if you keep working 80 hour work weeks how good's your work how good's your health how many of you routinely work 60 hour work weeks okay don't the reason why the 40 hour work week exists is less about the rights of workers in your negotiation and modernization of approaches and stuff but it's actually something that dates back to research that was done by henry ford and he discovered that 40 hours a week is that sweet spot where you can keep up the maximum output indefinitely he experimented with working with his workers 30 hour weeks 50 hour weeks 45 hour weeks 70 hour weeks um his workers burned out at 45 hours a week or above and their quality and throughput drop but they could work forever at 40 hours 40 hours a week this is a lesson that has to keep being relearned about every 30 years as each new industry comes along and says well we're not building cars we're doing this we're doing this or running games or we're designing bridges or we're digging ditches it's always 40 hours a week if you ever find yourself working 60 hours a week understand you can only do it for a few weeks at a time if you ever find yourself working 80 hours a week you had better have real equity in the startup or you'd better be in a combat zone and if that is the case the number one job of your founders or funders or your commanding officers to get your workload down before you really hurt yourself or hurt somebody else so don't overwork it's really not worth it and it will wreck your health and it will wreck your health in ways that will take years to recover um on a related note junk food just say no whether whether whether you do soilent or you go vegan or you count your calories or something chips and soda are something that's notorious in our industry and it is killing us so figure out what to stop doing it and stop doing it um and then back to jerks instead of don't be a jerk don't work for jerks working for jerks is highly stressful and that kind of stress is bad for your heart and bad for your mind there are many bosses and startup founders who think that because steve jobs was a jerk he was successful there therefore they should be a jerk like steve jobs um no they're not steve jobs they're just jerks and one of the cool things about being working in open source is it does make you more flexible on where you can work so you can actually fire your boss go to work for their company and keep working on the same project um don't do it unless you don't have to but again don't work for a jerk money this is something where i go on for you um usually five or ten minutes but i'm going to have haduk's size most of it since a lot of it is us centric the high points there are if you are in debt once you have that job get out of debt again that goes back to getting rid of your stress so you can do it be a better developer and max your your savings out um i have a bunch of stuff here that's us centric on the way to save for retirement which um sadly i have to put into a talk on technology and jobs because people don't pay attention to it um i don't know what the terminology is in new zealand and australia but whatever the equivalent of an ira and 401k is max your contribution out all right superannuation um and then startups um is when you get involved in technology and software development you may consider going to work for a startup um they can be very exciting they are death to your health um it's it may be worth it um if you decide to go to work for a startup do not kill yourself for a nickel a nickel is five percent of one percent of the value of the company and there are lots of bright-eyed intelligent bushy-tailed young men and women in the various silicon valleys around the world who are killing themselves for a nickel that's not real equity don't kill yourself for a nickel have real equity if you're going to do that or if you go work for a startup and you and they're offering you a nickel don't take a pay don't take the pay cut insist on industry wages or go to work in industry um and then finally and unsurprisingly do keep learning um it's i think i've gone through eight or nine different language cycles since i started doing software development um those of the rest of you who have done development will see the same thing happening you can't stop learning or you'll get left behind and the cool thing is if you keep learning you don't only stay in one place you get better and better and you get better at learning more things faster which makes it easier to get the next job the next project the next project the next job and then finally i have a recommendation for three books how many of you read that first book about a third the rest is you definitely should all read the first one how many of you read the second book again i really strongly recommend it the third book i that that was what i was reading in my off time at lca last year in perth it is astoundingly good um scott adams as in the dillbert guy it's um he starts out by the book by saying do not take life advice from a cartoonist on the other hand here's a bunch of things that worked for him and it is really an awesomely good book on getting a better job having a better life and taking care of yourself while you do it and then like i promised in the very last slide hp is hiring hp.com slash jobs um hp does many many things all around the world we have a pretty big footprint in australia and new zealand we do both open and proprietary software manufacturing sales marketing whatever sort of job you can think of we do it and we're probably hiring for it okay any questions yes okay thank you um more from you mentioned about ip yes um again that's highly localized for your for whatever for local employment law where you are and the contract you sign so if it gets if it gets beyond the um please watch out is if any answer beyond be aware of this sort of thing i have to you to go talk to a labor lawyer for the jurisdiction you're working in correct therefore let's make it global so the question is uh do you offer actually advise while you are hiring because at the end of the day this is a negotiation so uh it's a little bit strange that you actually advise me how to negotiate with you but it will be always cheaper for me to have your so-called free advice in terms of understand better so i'm wearing a couple of different hats here i'm only partially wearing a hat of um if i'm representing an hp i mean hp is an awesome company it's one of the better companies i've worked for you know it would be better for hp if i if i gave advice that was the cheapest for the company but i'm actually here instead representing my fellow open source peers and peers to be which is the reason why i offer the advice be aware of the ip issues be able to negotiate that yourself or understand what you're negotiating i don't know if they if that quite answered your question but it's a nice be hp style answer yes sorry just another question languages you mentioned normal languages python and java scripture and air enclosure can you give me a view towards i don't know julia or other kind of things are you it's a little bit of more corporate question but why are you recommending this so the reason why i recommend java script is that it is everywhere and not necessarily the document object model java script in a browser but things like no j s on the back end java script on the client um because it's not my favorite language but it's everywhere and everyone has to have some exposure to it the reason why i recommend python is probably the fastest non toy language to learn to read and learn to write that you can do real workload in if you are good at python that is 90 percent of the way to getting involved in doing development in open stack in cloud foundry those are written significant primarily in python um python is so i recommend python just because the ease of learning ease of becoming usable useful at it um once you get those two under your belt it turns into what one scratch your itch or what language you're used by the project that you're involved in probably the next important one to learn is c or c plus plus or if you're in a much more microsoft oriented world c sharp in the common language run time or java and other jvm based languages or if you're one of you feeling really academic and you want to really set your brain on fire languages like haskell but i really don't have any strong advice on which path to take other than you should probably start with javascript and python any other questions yes hey uh first of all thanks for once again touching on health as being a major issue um it seems to be a common theme among a number of talks uh from the talk i went to yesterday from uh the uh lays down in front there it came up with a lot of people do get jobs via people they know and suppose a bit of nepotism and such so you're essentially advocating for that to encourage people to go out and actually be more sociable even though i see people are generally a bit more introverted is yeah it's um it's it's the uh it is the most effective way to sell a product is word of mouth and sometimes that and sometimes the product in this case is a job opening or a job applicant um the bet is you typically don't get really good jobs by going through the big online jobs databases it's almost always done well better through referral um and may sometimes seem unfair or you wish it could be more automated or or or have less human messiness involved in it but it is what it is and the best way to get referred for a job is to be more social and more sociable um it's again we could have another talk on how to be more social more sociable and that would consume hours and days um it's um my own experience is i'm actually an introvert i it takes energy for me to talk to people and be social and it's after i do a conference like this i have to go home and be myself by myself alone for a day to to recompress um but even when you're an introvert you can still go out and talk to people it's easier to talk to other introverts or hang out with other geeks and developers but yeah i am specifically recommending going out and being social with the kind of people who can refer you to the job that you want to get thank you very much are there any other questions just wondering how to what's the best way to get better at the language is a cloning a project and start working on it uh it's there but how to get better at a particular language um you know the very the very start to just find some good on online tutorials for that language my experience is i is i typically do that for a while and then i find somebody who knows the language and asked to pair with them so i do really basic programming while i look over my shoulder and correct me um and then it just turns into a matter of practice i know some extremely talented professional programmers that um take a sort of a martial arts approach to it where they'll sit down each morning and do kadas they'll do solve very basic logic problems and programming problems in some language using some new technique um is they'll read about some technique in language that and then they'll sit and write basic um problems and but in basic programs even ones they'll throw away in that technique until they get comfortable with it and then it's just it turns into a matter of just doing more and more um it's like all skills it gets better with practice and um one of the thing is one of the things that i've learned both from learning how to program and other skills that i've worked on is is you have to practice and you have to practice with intent you have to think about what you're doing while you're practicing and it's painful and slow and you wish you were smarter but you have to put in the hours and the focus and then you will get better at it all right then you're welcome yes hi my name is andrew uh in some of our favorite open source projects like in the kernel for example the the learning curve is very very steep it is could you uh say a few words about um how many of the developers who who land an open source job um had some kind mentored by someone versus uh the number of people who have basically had to bootstrap themselves mentoring versus bootstrapping this this is something that um i think as an industry we're making a transition in 10 minutes all right um it used to be that nearly all software developers had to bootstrap um until they got to until they got to uni and then and then they mentored each other um we're starting to make a a change more towards more mentoring less bootstrapping which i think is a good thing because there are lots of people out there who ultimately will be very skilled who the skill of being a good developer and the skill of being a good open source developer and the skill of being a good employee are not necessarily the same skill as being able to bootstrap a very technical technical skill um if you can bootstrap you should even if you can you should seek out a mentor um ways you find mentors the same way you find peers you go to the places that where there are people doing the things that you want to learn um if you start pairing with people you'll find out you may find somebody who can mentor you um it's you can sometimes even just ask if you find if you come across somebody who you think can teach you something really useful you can ask them can you mentor me can you or a couple of hours a week in exchange for this or sometimes in exchange is people who are skilled like to teach and um you may find somebody who can help you learn um as the the Linux kernel as a um as a project is a very technically demanding both for as language as a complex project and as a complex open source it is one of the most complicated ones um if you want to get involved in open source the Linux kernel is probably not the place to start um pick one of the other projects get some skills there learn the right language and then you and and then if you want work towards being a contributor to the Linux kernel um i'm trying to think of any other large well-known project that is more difficult than the Linux kernel yes it does need help there that's true and the other thing is when you're looking for the projects that are active so that there are projects out there that um like one of the interesting challenges with a lot of the open source stuff is like we're there to solve our own problems um but at the same time you're kind of like going you figure out if we can get more people in then that gives us more bandwidth to get more done yes but it's spending time now on mentoring people that's time you're not spending getting stuff done that that that that that that's true and it's and that's a and a different talk as well some of the projects i've been in they we we've had to make that this determination between we have these problems um these particular bugs to fix do we have our expert people do it or we have them slow down and mentor new people to do it for is doing stuff in the future more mentoring more people in and having more stuff done in the future and this that this is a balance back and forth and a transition again that we's industry are making that i'm looking forward to seeing how it ends up but yeah it's it i may have over spoken about how difficult is to get into the Linux kernel i'm glad there is the kernel janitors project to help people get into it the other so there's kernel janitors for some people there's also outreach program for women that every twice a year has a group that goes through the other approach is to start your own project yes which has i mean you're one of many people and who knows if you'll on the other hand you don't worry about your fixes and changes getting accepted that's true um that's both a good thing and a bad thing i've seen indeed i i i i i have seen projects started by one developer who um it's the great thing about the project is it's got to move fast because the um quarter the problem with the project is after after a guru to a particular size um maybe some of the core initial developers patchy shouldn't have landed before review and and and making that transition is always a bit rocky are there any other questions all right oh yes you're in the back okay um for those who probably um aren't um up to skills up to date with programming and coding and stuff like that but want to um participate in open source maybe into the documentation documentation yes side of things or tasting things like that is does that add any value when you're looking for a job or anything it does it does um is being able to write test cases and do test management or do documentation um has is is getting more and more important with soft with um open source software development especially projects that have a company attached to them um one of the things that i i skipped in my slides as many of the big projects have companies associated with them which makes it so you tend to start looking for jobs in those companies and such projects typically have open source documentation projects attached and um then is um documentation work requires at least as much as if not more collaboration collaboration skills than the writing the code does but it doesn't require typically doesn't require learning the programming language just requires be able to communicate clearly and be able to write well um and it just likes for software development doing documentation work again it feeds into your portfolio you can point and say i did this here's here's my skill at editorial work the cool thing there is that not only can get you work in open source development that could just get you work in doing technical documentation anywhere if you can show what how good of an editor and how good of a writer you are by showing your portfolio anything else yes sorry first of all i'd like to plus one that answer because that was really good as a documentation person um we talked a little bit about the technical hurdles to get our um especially the kernel with the earlier questions um what's your take on social and community issues and those kinds of hurdles it's sorry that's a big question it's a big one it's in its own set of talks um it's um i used to have lots and lots of slides on this topic and it vanishes down either a rat hole or a bike shed or or discussions that don't have that become unfruitful very quickly so that's the reason why encapsulated in just don't be a jerk um it's to expand a little bit sometime um is it don't be a difficult person to work with but you're going to have to work with difficult people um it's assume goodwill and the lack of malice on the part of other people um even if it's demonstrably untrue it stills better for your health and your skills and your career to assume goodwill and be able to work with people who are hard to work with um it's i said this is something that i could go it's we could discuss for hours and sometimes it's fruitful and sometimes it's not some people are hard to work with some people are excessive are um apparently overly focused on the project they're working on and less focused on the niceties of social interaction um you have to work with them people are getting better at it but it is what it is and um well it's very important one of the things i do is i take a very zen approach to it it's just work it's just technology it's not something important like say your family all right i think we're out of time so thank you very much everyone um again if you have any follow-on questions you all saw my email address and if you want to work for culott packard it's hp.com slash jobs awesome so another huge round of applause for mark now on behalf of the lca team and all of everyone around here we have a small gift for you as a massive thanks for your talk presentation very much