 Thank you for staying with us. You're still watching the breakfast on plus TV Africa and now it's time for our hot topic We're talking about Teenable Suspending Social Investment Program over one turn corruption And today with us is Joe Fermi dungro the founder and president of Kushofer Chamber of Commerce and Industry Good morning, sir. Thank you for joining us All right, let's get right into it. We've seen the scandal alleged Fraud from the humanitarian affairs the NSIP as well and we're seeing all of this as As as dough these are Ministries or these are government agencies that are used to siphon funds meant for vulnerable Nigerians now the president as obviously You know decided to suspend the social investment program over corruption But my first question is what is your take? Let's have an overview. What is your take on what the president's is doing by suspending? this agencies Well, that's a step in the right direction, you know, I think we have all seen it even the oppositions Saying yes, we applaud the president for taking that decision. You know, it was a sense. No one really understands What these agencies have been doing positively, you know, you remember that they've been scandals upon scandal the IDPs and all that But lately one will understand. I think the mr. President understands that you some people go into the government to to steal money Some are the government to steal money and some we want to go into the government to steal money You know, so when you have this bunch of people in government, there's nothing you can do You can stop them until they are caught red-handed in some places and They have taken it for granted that after all what we happen, you know, because in the past you have not been seen serious consequences serious Punishment so it's like do go there, you know, take what you want and if you are caught fine if you are not caught You are okay. So but suspending it now because there is no statistic for us even to measure What amount of money should be budgeted for this program? I've said in some in some other areas that we don't have relevant statistics We don't have the preparation for it and there shouldn't be this kind of program for now in other countries where you have Social welfare program you have statistics, you know where people are living We don't have you know sensors an accurate sensors in this country where by you know And when people leave their their homes or where they rented they don't tell you where they're going So there's no registrations of citizens in their homes where they stay how they stay where they walk So it's only if you say maybe in Lagos you have this last travel, you know, how many people have registered Most people you don't have their addresses. So how do you now justify? The amount of money being budgeted for this program So there are a lot of loopholes and it shouldn't have been at the now I think we should be able to correct. I mean the president should be able to look into this and Is it that to scrap the program for now or to, you know, come up with ideas or to come up with suggestions or to come up with, you know Positive ways of helping the vulnerable, you know We always have vulnerable in our midst, but they should be helped and not to be subjected to this kind of humiliation I think this is humiliation to the vulnerable Okay, so you talked about people going into government to steal and that can just be their goal I well, I think it's that national cake syndrome Where people feel is a national cake. Let me go there get my share and I move out But with this precedent suspending this social investment program, do you think it's an indication of true? Anti-corruption agenda or is it just the maybe PR just to photo op press just to say oh, yes We're doing something is it and a true anti-corruption agenda. I Want to believe that it's part of it, you know, if you Watch and if you have seen The president and this event and in Lagos the world was tough He I said it at the beginning this president can suck you if you're not performing and People should just Take it easy and say look after all because I'm a PC because I'm whatever party He can suck you he has the power and he's doing what is supposed to do and that is why it's been applauded here And there but it's not about the applause. It's about doing the right thing, you know And more heads who still roll but the heads rolling into where and what we happen Is what the people want to understand is what the masses want to know because you are still in this money meant for the masses And then it is not just to be investigated and after that in another five or ten years The case is still in court and nothing comes out of it We have seen it in the past people steal money and people and based money call it whatever name and after 10 years People are still working on the street. I won't contest in election You know to go back there again. So people are just getting fed up That is why the effect of this suspension may not be that Popular because we've had it before we've seen it before so that is that before before But now if there is a kind of punishment that we meet it out to the people There's a kind of justice and fear justice that that we you know carried out and then people will continue to say This is different. We need a difference now a difference has to be made So if this will make a difference fine and that we make President Bola mentioning it, you know a great president as well because corruption is all about it. Yes. Yeah well We're hoping that proper investigation is done into this and if they are found guilty Then they should be able to you know face the consequences. So it's not just saying or We saw this and that's where it ends. We should not just sweep it under the carpet We should ensure that anyone who's stealing From government funds or treasury. They should be able to face the consequences They should be able to dance to the to the music, but my next question is let's talk about the EFCC We have agencies such as the EFCC ICPC who are supposed to be looking into all of this Accounts and and the funding by the ministers and everyone in government and even you know private entities as well now How do they check corruption to ensure that people are not just they don't have a leeway because it seems you know When you say there's a loophole, it's not just a it's a very like big loophole like everywhere You go there's corruption people are able to Siphon money without even thinking because they feel like oh it's been done before I can do it again I'm not the first I'm not going to be the last So how do these government agencies for like EFCC ICPC? How do they start to mitigate corruption as a whole? It was a good idea setting up these agencies to fight corruption or to tame corruption whichever way you look at it but in the past or in recent times you discover that actually all the head of the agency EFCC They've been either subjected to arrest Investigation and a couple of things and nobody knows the outcome has not been made properly You know so this is where the masses are feeling it that look What's gonna happen? You know Lately, you know, I don't want to say so much about it, but you understand what I'm trying to say Yeah, so now it is it's gonna be different. You know You have the ICPC Yeah, you know, but do you have a court to tame this people to judge these cases because if you take this people to you know, the Usual the normal court and there's adjoinment as you know, it's the study adjoinment every time and It's about the five years and there's sometimes the facts and the figures are not accurate again And you know, it becomes another issue But if people can be tried within three months within five months and then you see the effect of that So you have cases in court that has been missed You know Prosecutions have been trying to gather facts and all for the past how many years, but the point is the there are rules Then they are laid down rules. I'm not a lawyer, but but the the thing is this The bankers if you should have You know, 50 million 100 million overnight in your account They should inform the agencies Yeah, is this kind of thing going on at the bankers doing their job that you just see someone with about 150 million What is the salary of that person? What is the business of that person? How much turnover is that business making in a in a year in a month? So so it's not just the EFCC. EFCC needs the facts. They need Informations as well. So the citizens as well the bankers as well. They have to inform the agencies I think that's what the rule is all about the bankers have to declare assets and these ministers They have to declare their assets have they declared their assets Do we know what they have before going into the government and do we know what you have when coming out of the government as well? So this is why it's just To them it's just like a game of hide-and-seek kind of because nobody knows the asset I don't know, you know, we have to make it open that these people have to be declared their assets regularly as stipulated in law So if all these things and all the informations have been given, you know, there was a time we have this whistleblower thing Yes, you know, I don't know what is still effective right now So these are processes and unless we follow the processes Well, let's see what this would bring and let's see You remember this aviation thing there was an issue in the aviation and then what is going on in this Mambila issue Where the former president said no one signs any project above 25 million in his administration So you'll be wondering why is the minister signing, you know, just like that such a huge amount of money I mean, if that's the process They have to check it. So I think critically think that critically Looking at the whole thing. There's a lot of questions to be answered All right. So, I mean, I'm glad you even brought about the Mambila project thing because that's also Corruption in the making Now you highlighted the fact that the banks should be able to alert these agencies So I think maybe we don't share enough information Maybe we don't work with each other so much that, you know, the agencies are aware like this person has just You know asked for this amount of money and we're seeing this money in this account Why is this money here and then they have to investigate What that money is for but if the agencies are either banks are not doing this shouldn't the agencies be At alerts and you know, even just having access to all of these Accounts and then let's talk about the cap as well Shouldn't there be a cap for each serving Minister or any government official at all that you cannot, you know Have this type of money or you cannot sign for this type of money Maybe you have to go to the precedent or anyone above you. Shouldn't shouldn't that be like a standard process? Well, I think like I said the processes are there, but you know Now is a different thing Yes, exactly. You can buy the parts of process just like You know in the private sector as well, you know, you have three signatories And if these three signatories not that the bank would all release the money and all that all kinds of things like that You have to take the your papers wherever to The executive council and they have to approve a lot of processes are there, you know You have your contact general you have the department secretary in the ministry You have so many processes and that's what you say There's a lot of bureaucracy out there, you know, but the point is It's not a one-man thing to steal money or to impose money quality any name in the government It's not a one-man thing, you know, you have to form it, you know a cloud So that's why I'm saying that it's not just one person, you know to now find all those people involved If you take some time and then this is where the investigation has to be very critical as well So because in some cases We just have to wait and see How the investigation goes because we can't say anything now until when we know who and who are really involved but I just want to say that Anyone working with president but I mentioned we should be prepared to be honest and Should be prepared to do his work well. It's not just gonna be Just go there and take your cake and get out and have your tea. You know, it's not gonna be like that I see I see the president ready to make a change, you know Because otherwise other people are looking at us investors that we want to come there see me We can't hide it. Yeah We can hide all these things. So and if we are portraying our country to be a country of this kind of Regular incident then what what what are we gonna say? You know and each time you have a minister being involved Somebody top government official been involved. It can't help us, you know And now we're just taking a loan and we're taking more loans and we're borrowing money to do this kind of a thing It's not a good thing. So why even do we set up this particular agency or ministry? Why you know this money, you know, because we don't have statistics and we cannot start so easily So I would have expected a look. Let's have this money Let's deal. You know, you see you have the public health center This health center secured them very well so that the vulnerability The low-end people can have access to good health Where they can go to the public health center and we treated wet There's a public health center somewhere very close by here And I was there some time at about 11 o'clock and I might just see someone and we took the question there I was surprised there was a doctor on duty at about and they say this 24-7 And I was happy to see that but a few months later the same doctor was telling me that she was harassed at a point at night And we don't have more doctors to run this 24-7 pain So why don't we look into that that we have more doctors to do this? We have more equipment. We have more drugs for people to go there That would be good for the vulnerable such work. So there are a lot of ways you can handle this Look at the pensioners. Some of the pensioners are ending maybe 20,000 there after 35 years or 30 years Some are ending just maybe, you know, 20,000 15,000. It is not enough The statistics of those ones are already there where we can assist them But I know there are some people who are not on that list. So let's begin to look at the Ways or the better ways to really assist our people. So Excuse me unless we do that I think we might just continue to give a venue for people to take this money as they want and which is not good for this economy Yeah Okay, so another question I have is how well do we even Audit because there's one thing to be able to siphon money out But then during your audit you can see oh this amount of money went out at such a time It was meant for this but we can't really ascertain where the money went into So now do we do we even have like this auditing procedure for each and every one of our agencies and ministries and you know, just government offices and shouldn't we have like a Station compliers officer In each of you know, these offices that is there to ensure that okay We're auditing and this is what the money is used for and because at the end of the day They should be able to have a report to Nigerians to say this is how this this is what we've received so far This is how we spent the money. This is what we used it for so shouldn't we be able to start have that transparency I think that that's the word. I'm looking for have that transparency because at the end of the day We're looking to build trust for the longest time Most of our politicians are failed us and so there's that trust deficit When you say a we think you're saying why and we never just trust what you're saying so with you know Things like this a station compliance officer auditing. Do you think that would be able to build trust between? The Nigerian people and these government officials and President baller-tenable as well I bet you you have Auditor general you have a content general you have all this general general whatever and It takes to to tango even in the private sector as well. So Yes, auditors will do their job and they will audit what they find and the figures is where all this kind of Check and balances, you know if you want to put it up you you have it in place But you see people who still want to beat That's why I'm saying that it's not just one man doing it or one woman doing it So the root is when we know that look if you still 50 million This is you are going to take before It's a month of years and we are taking over your properties and all that that should be these You know consequences But when you don't have the consequences people tend to do what they want and This are the things we have to put in place the lawmakers have to make laws and not Distributing rise the backs of rise and and and braids and well and whatever let the lawmaker make laws Lady people understand what the laws are all about, you know, and let us begin to have Respect for ourselves, you know, and these are the things that we have to begin to do It is not too late Children and grandchildren are hearing about stealing and you are telling them go still and you are trying to give them these good vibes of Do things doing things right so but then but what they hear what they see is not encouraging So we have to begin somewhere In the past has gone we can still use the present to correct what may happen in the future So my own take is the president. I mean president, but I met in a move Should use this present moment to make corrections to make adjustments And so that people would think of now and begin to think in future, you know For years is enough time to set an agenda and the following this Renew hope agenda is a fantastic slogan is a fantastic thing But then if we begin to you know Fundamentally practice what we say if you go a long way to really stick in the minds of the people And that is why like I said at the beginning even the opposition guys are saying this is a good thing He has done he has taken the right step in the right direction and without wasting much time on it All right So since we're talking about a corruption, we know how much it has isn't deep into our system now If the president is you know having this fight against corruption maybe even moving into the past administration and how the how they've been corrupt and they start to You know find them or jail them or do whatever is necessary. I mean make sure that they face the consequences don't you think maybe that could make him have like so many enemies and From the from at incident you see that when someone comes with a New agenda and say this is what we're going to do most times even even though it's positive You have some enemies and they start to frustrate your administration We've seen things like the insurgency with some things like bookworm We've seen you know different things that would just come up But what do you think can what do you think the president can do to ensure that okay? We're fighting corruption. We're doing things right regardless of what anyone is saying It's a decision of the president the president decides, you know President but I met him who is not Unaware of all these things. It's very a lot on it is quite aware of it And he has his advisors his general advisers that we you know support him money and have to fight this It is not a deal thing This thing has been there for years there is corruption everywhere everywhere There's corruption there's corruption in private sector as well. It's not only in the government sector, but which is this we have to see That we start from somewhere So it's not about making enemies the enemies will always be there because they want to do even that is Everywhere, but then you can't because of that not do the right thing You want to do the right thing because you want to do the right thing? I mean, I knew the enemy wants to do the wrong thing They'll face the consequences as well, you know, who are the enemies? I didn't know Nigerians. I didn't know the people that are here What people say honey? It's not as if the foreigner has come to steal our money So we if you know them and you know where they are, I mean we can easily trace them and even if they are outside the country You can just press them. So it's a big task He's a predecessors they've tried whatever and we have seen that maybe it doesn't work in Somalia But I think I still want to give him This opportunity and the chance to really walk out, you know, it's not an easy thing. Let's look at it I mean we can we can speak about it. Yes Because it's the president we're looking at Abuja right now. What about the states? Yeah, what about the local governments? You think there's no corruption in those places as well. Yeah, you have corruption there So have we brought any other person there to punish? So it's the same thing. We are saying it's not only that which I It's not only at the federal level. You have it at the state level. You have it at, you know Local government level you have it in places in houses in homes You know, you have investment everywhere So but then we are looking at it because this is just the central point and then we have to fight it from the central point Maybe to put down Maybe people will learn from it and begin to do the right thing at the at this other sub regional level or sub national level So it is quite a big task. We all know you but then we just want the president to, you know, take the ball by the hand All right, I think that's that's where we would wrap it up here I think that's a very good way to land The president has to take the ball by the horn and make a decision The fight against corruption is the decision that needs to be taken By everybody. So whether you're the president, whether you're the chief of staff, whether you're a governor or local government chairman Anywhere you find yourself even in the private sector even in your office We should all have this collective goal that there is a fight against corruption and we will not be corrupt Nigeria is not going to be known as the nation of corruption and instead will be known as people who thrive and who are honest But yes, we want to thank you so much for joining us and coming here to just have this conversation and you know Just have this fight against corruption. Thank you so much. Mr. Fermi for joining us Thank you All right, if you're speaking to Joe Fermi dango, he's the founder and president of koshofe chamber of commerce and industry and we're talking about the president's suspending the NSIP and all of this other humanitarian affairs industries In the bid to end corruption because we've seen the alleged Fraud cases, but yes, we'll go on a quick break right now and when we return it will be looking at our next hot topic Please stay with us