 Welcome to the Jones library building committee for Tuesday, May 10th at 430. And I will first read about the accessing this meeting. So pursuit to chapter 20 of acts of 2021 this meeting will be conducted via remote means members of the public who wish to access the meeting may do so in the following manner. You can go to the town website and there's direct links there. And you can also access this later at a later time, as it is recorded, no in person attendance of members of the public will be permitted but in every effort will be made to ensure that the public can be adequately adequately access the proceedings in real time via technological means in the event that they are unable to do so for reasons of economic hardship or despite best efforts, it will be posted on the town website. So with that, I'm going to do a quick roll call to see who is here. We have a quorum. So, if you could just answer here or yes, and Paul Backelman here or yes. George. Yes, here. Alex. Yes. Anika. Yes. Xander. He's not here still Sean. Yes. And Austin the chair is not here. My name is Christine Graham Mullen. And I am the subbing in. Is the vice chair and Sharon sherry. Here. Okay, so all but Sanders here. Does anyone know if he's showing up later or. Okay, so with that we have minutes. That Angela wonderfully prepared from April 26. And you've all received them. Do I have a motion to approve. To approve to approve. Second. Okay, we have second. Are there any comments, changes, adjustments? And I'll watch for hands or wave. Okay, so I'm not seeing any. So I will go through a roll call to approve the minutes. So this is to approve the minutes from April 26, 2022. Okay. Yes. Yes. George. Yes. Alex. Yes. Lopez. Yes. Sorry. I'm already skipping down to that. I'm like, Oh, isn't that interesting? I know. I know I get hung up on all the Alexes, but. Anika. Yes. And now Alex. Sean. Yes. And now. And still no Austin and Sharon chari. Yes. And myself. Yes. Great. So those are approved. And we'll move to item three, which is the finance updates. So I will hand it over to you, Sean. For. Any invoices. Or updates. Yeah. So we do have. We do have an invoice. So I only do that first. And I'm going to pull it up. So this is the April 30th. In voice that we, I'm blanking. Did we approve the March 30th one last week? We did. Okay. So good. So then we're current. So this is April 30th. Craig, I don't know if you want to speak to this at all a little bit, but there's a description of the services. Again, the monthly fee is sort of fixed at this phase. So it's. That's 10,000 978 again. Move to approve. I have a second. Second. Are there any questions or comments? The board. See if there's any hands. See any. So I guess these are good to go. So do I hear a motion to approve this for approval and payment? Move to approve. Second. Okay. And I'll just do a roll call. Yes. George. Yes. Alex. Yes. Yes. Yes. Sean. Yes. Sharon. Yes. And myself. Yes. Yes. Okay. Is it okay if I do one other thing for financial update? Absolutely. So since we last met, we did present the town budget. One thing that we did propose in that budget is the first debt payment for the library project. So we're still planning on borrowing. We're planning at this point now to borrow in the fall. It's all subject to interest rates and sort of what the market's doing, which is. Very volatile right now because of. The global market. The global market. And we're still planning on borrowing. World events, but. Right now we're planning to go in the fall and we still have our first payment budgeted in FY 23, because we still want to get these projects started and. Start making payments on one of the four building projects. I also had further conversation with the, with the OPM about the cost estimates. I'm feeling much better about that now that we've talked through it a little bit more. We've looked at what the contingencies are. We've looked at what the cost is. We've looked at what the cost is. We've looked at the ability to. You know, adjust the price or the cost at this point in development, which is pretty early. So. You know, optimistic and still feeling, feeling better about it at this point. Sounds great. Thank you. Are there any questions to Sean? Yeah, could he stop sharing a screen? Yes. Appreciate that Paul. Thank you. Sorry. It was nice to look at the numbers. Okay. So I guess we'll move on to item four. And it's our OPM collars. Craig. And I assume you are there, Craig. Yes, I'm here. Thank you, Christine. Hello. Hello, thank you. So. The big, the big topic I want to bring up today has to do with an item that I know is near and dear to the community. It's the cross laminated timber or the heavy timber framing. That is an item that the cost estimator has broken out separate line item. It's something that is a little premium. Or maybe not a little, but it's a premium over standard. Steel. Steel frame construction. And the reason why I'm bringing it up now and sort of to back up a little bit. What, what Sean was alluding to with some conversations that he and I had, and I've also had with a design team about, you know, the cost estimate being, you know, 3.9 million dollars over our budget. And my advice and which is also substantiated or, or supported by a design team is to like, let's not cut scope out of the project yet. Let's not panic yet. Because that cost, and I believe I talked about this a little bit, that cost estimate was based on very preliminary drawings and very broad assumptions. Our, my advice is to proceed through the schematic design phase. And we'll get another cost estimate with more accurate information and have a much better feel for what the project will likely cost. However, that being said, this cross laminated timber is a decision that the design team has requested be made at this point. So almost like a fork in the road. This is something that, you know, if the, if the community wants it, that's the direction will go. If they don't want it, they're going in a different direction. So the cost estimator put that premium at $506,000. And that's for, it's actually a portion of the structure. There's a portion of structure that has to remain structural steel due to its height. But for a good portion of the structure to be, to have a more sustainable, more environmentally friendly structural system at a premium. So just to give you an explanation about why that's required now. So right now the town can choose to go for it for that 500, assumed $506,000 premium. If we postpone that decision. Or, you know, send them down the path. All right, let's do that cross laminated timber. Now it's just on paper. It can be taken back. However, if we go through schematic to the end of schematic design, decide we want to take it out at that point, then that will extend the project. I don't know exactly how much we would have to ask the design team for that. But I'm guessing it's going to be somewhere in the range of like a month. So I think that extends the overall project schedule by a month. And as we know, you know, with interest rates being very high right now, the longer the project goes, the less buying power you guys will have, sort of the less you'll get for the money that you're spending. Also, the design team will need to be compensated for, you know, going down one path and then switching channels, kind of backtracking going back down another path. So that's a lot of information to throw at you. So the big idea is where we're looking for at this point, some direction on whether or not. The community or the building committee wants to pursue, wants the design team to pursue the cross laminated timber structural system with the assumption that there is a premium to be paid, which the exact amount is not known, but we assume it's somewhere around 500,000. So can I just clarify? You're saying you want direction. Do you want a yes or no? And when you say now, do you mean at this meeting now or like in two weeks at the next meeting? This meeting now would be great. I know we also have a design subcommittee meeting coming up on Friday. So if the building committee wanted to kick it over to the design subcommittee and have them make the decision, that would also, I think, fit within the timeline, but the design team does not want to wait another two weeks in to get to kind of get a direction from you guys. Okay. That's helpful. I see some hands going up. So I saw Sean first, I recognize him. And then I believe it was Alex and then Anika. So I know I heard, I've heard this through the discussion that's gone on the last year. So, but can you review or can someone review again the, the benefits of the cross laminated timber and why that was built into the project? Good question. So Christine, that's actually why my hand is raised. So Todd Holland, who was on our sustainability committee is in as an attendee. And if it's helpful, I don't know if it's helpful to have like the sustainability presentation up or how people want to roll, but I offer you those things. Thank you. That's good to know. So Todd Holland, I see him there. So Craig, I'm going to ask you how you want to handle this. Do you want to. Put details and then ask Todd, or how, how do you want to. I think now's the exact right time to have this discussion. I would turn things over to Todd right away. He'll speak to it more intelligent, more intelligently than I will. Okay. So Angela, if you could put Todd into our meeting too. So Todd, I've just moved you in as a panelist and you'll have to unmute to speak. Todd, are you there? Yes, I'm here. I'm a little frightened with that billing I've just received. Counting on a lot. I think to answer the question why the cross laminated timber was included into the project at this time was primarily for embodied carbon savings in that the energy and transportation. Inputs to making steel and concrete conventional. Construction materials. Input a lot of carbon, so when you take a pound of steel and a pound of concrete and put it in your building to make that steel from iron ore and transport it from wherever it was made. And to create that concrete. Has already created a whole load of carbon emissions that are in the atmosphere in your project. Bears that carbon burden. Whereas the timber. Has a much lower energy input to make it into a building material because thankfully trees look a lot like building materials and Alex is, is looking at our, our bar charts and trees grow looking like building materials. I think it's probably more the other way around chicken before the egg, our building materials look like trees because we learned how to make things like buildings out of trees. But on the other hand this thing arrives at the job site having emitted a heck of a lot less carbon to become a building material and it actually contains carbon that the tree removed from the atmosphere on its way to becoming a beam. So the question is, does this $500,000 premium for the carbon emissions that we have to pay for the carbon emissions and that depends on whether or not you want to figure out that we are eventually going to have to pay a price per ton in carbon. And so in other projects and I don't think we quite looked at this. And it's been a while. So the numbers are on the tip of my tongue. The question is if you put a price of say $52 a ton on carbon. That is the ton of carbon saved by substituting CLT for conventional building materials make sense. And chances are it's probably a pretty strong argument for it. And I'm sorry that's a qualitative analysis not a quantitative one but I don't have the numbers right here. Can you talk more about the pain price per ton for carbon. So my background in tossing around these numbers and this concept of embodied carbon. So the concept of embodied carbon is, you know, when you open the door to your building, you've already emitted a whole bunch of carbon that now if I've incurred this carbon cost to make this building and it's an efficient building that's going to save me carbon through my energy costs year after year. When do I pay back that carbon debt. And so that's the. That's how I've looked at it at some of the local colleges on making energy efficient buildings green buildings and buildings that actually account for their embodied carbon during the construction process. And we've looked at pricing that carbon. I think that $52 a ton price came out of an Obama administration analysis on what the societal class of carbon emissions are right now. I know I think Canada has enacted a carbon tax or a proposing one that's going to start at $10 a metric ton of carbon and go to 20 or 50, I think 20. And, you know, institutions like Amherst College and Williams College. I have formerly been involved with both those places as an employee I am no longer an employee, but they are looking at pricing, you know factoring in carbon pricing now somewhere 20 to $70 a ton. To the best of my knowledge. Sorry, Paul. So I was confused. I wasn't sure what you said at the end your conclusion your qualitative assessment you said it's worth it or it's not worth it. I didn't know which way you were going on with that. I'm trying to look at the report right now maybe Alex is actually able to look at the port do we have a number on how many kilograms of carbon the the CLT is supposed to save 118,704. Oh look she even sent me a text am I allowed to say that Alex text. I knew you were trying to find the information. This was also my other attempt. So I can do that math. Let me give my mouse over here. So if that that's 118. 704 metric tons. I barely know what I only know numbers. Metric systems amazing you just divide kilograms by a thousand and you get tons you don't have to do any other things. So that's $10,000 worth of carbon that we're paying $500,000 for. So it's not going to stand on its own from a carbon standpoint. So the question is, is if we do incur that. That carbon footprint up front. How much money do we have to spend on other things like more efficient windows. Or more efficient mechanical systems. To take those carbon emissions back over the lifetime of the building. So that would be the way to look at it. And whether or not that was possible. And the other question I would have to somebody on here who's probably a lot smarter than I am about this. Are there other. Quantifiable advantages such as, you know, I know from working in commercial buildings, whatever the fire resistance of a timber frame building. As far as superior. Does that mean we get an insurance break? Hmm. Yeah, I mean, I could, if I can't answer that today, if we have to make that decision today, but we could look into versus steel or would it be a different material? Yeah, I think that I think the alternative here is going back to a standard steel construction building. So I used to do municipal insurance and they just based on value of the building, not on the construction materials. Thank you. Todd, I don't see any hands right now. Craig, was there any pros or cons from the designers from FAA? I mean, if they want this answer right away. Are they leaning one way or. Are they just. No. So they. They did not express a preference to me. I think they're perfectly happy designing either. The key is just that they want to know which way the town would like them to proceed. So they're fairly agnostic about it. Okay. Paul, I see you're here. Yeah. I think it's hard to make a decision right on the spot today. I think I would need some time. I mean, the value that the information Todd provided is really important. I also sort of weigh that against the fact that we know that prices are escalating across the board and we're going to need to cut some big things out. This is a big thing. To stay within our budget because, you know, every dollar we spend out, you know, that's more it means we have to really, you know, So that's, that's my current thinking, but, you know, I think it's really hard for me to say make a snap judgment today based on this limited amount of information. I see Alex and then Sean. So two thoughts. One, there is a sustainability. Chat. As well as a meeting where the full complement of the sustainability committee was there and not just one. Committee member who hasn't looked at it in probably two years or a year. Where you can get more information about that. I think it's really important to make a snap judgment today based on this limited amount of information. I see Alex and then Sean. So two thoughts. One, there is a sustainability chat. As well as a meeting where the full complement of the sustainability committee was there. So I think we can get more information about it. If you want to look at that. And then also, I don't know how this plays out, but. So the trustees, the board of trustees of the library approved a revised schematic design that included CLT. And the commitment that we made to the town around fundraising includes sustainability measures. I don't know how all of that plays in, but. I just put that out there for the committee for whatever that means. Thanks. Sean. Two questions. Does does either building material. Accelerate the project, make it move faster. Can we get the timber faster than the steel or the steel faster than the timber that would shorten the length of the project. I don't have an answer to that question. Let me see if I can send a text over to Alan and see if they have any information they can provide. And then the other. Oh, sorry, go ahead. Sorry. The other question. I don't think it does, but I'm also not very. I don't think it does. I don't think it does. I don't think it does. I don't think it does. Versed on sustainability terminology. Does this factor into the EUI of the building in any way? It does. Okay. So the commitments we made around the EU. Todd should answer that, not me. I'm shaking my head, but actually now that I think about it, probably not. So. Okay. I'll just try to remember what we made commitments around or what the council or with the group that brought this forward, made commitments around what it, what it does impact. Sorry for speaking out of turn, Christian. I'm just going to go back to the, the technical analysis that looked at the. The carbon, the total carbon output, which was a combination of the carbon in the demolition, in the building, and then the operational carbon against the current. So it does impact that number. And whether it makes sense in the longterm to build this from a environmental standpoint from a carbon emissions standpoint. That's not the problem. Okay. So that's not solely because his hands next, but he might have something to add to what we were just talking about. Todd. Okay. To start my video as if I'm standing up in a meeting. One of the other things I just wanted to mention one to answer the question. No. The EUI is based solely on the energy inputs of the building you break even on embodied carbon, it will not affect the energy efficiency of the building. But I would like to relay a comment that we got from the open house, I think it was last weekend or two weekends ago. One person really objected to the use of acoustic tile ceilings. And one of the things that's very interesting about a timber building is you can have the structure open because it's nice to look at. Whereas a conventional steel building, it's very difficult to make look pretty, especially once it's covered with fireproofing. And so you have to cover it up with acoustic tile ceilings. And regarding future price volatility, one of the timber buildings that I'm most familiar with is the Kern Center at Hampshire College. And the timbers from that building were from Quebec. And so having that ability to locally source something within a few hundred miles will certainly shelter it or somewhat protect it from future price spikes and transportation difficulties and container ship getting stranded and things like that. So that's another reason why it is likely a less volatility risk than a steel building. Thank you. Anika, thank you for being patient. Oh no, that's right. Most of my questions were answered except for maybe reminded of the space of time to make this decision before there are financial or time delay implications. Say that again, what was? Will it be reminded of how long we have to make this decision before we run into financial or implications or time delays? I could delay the project. Craig, you wanna detail that again? Sure. So ideal situation, we would have an answer this week. The design team began schematic design in earnest this past Monday, they've cranked up the machine and they've started producing stuff. So, and we have a fairly narrow window for schematic design only about eight weeks of them kind of operating at full speed. So if we make a decision this week, that's the best scenario. If we take more time, I don't know the exact ramifications like if a week delay so it pushes things out a week, maybe not but yeah, the sooner, the better. So we'll weigh in on what people think or if they are comfortable now, but if we couldn't do it today and I know the design subcommittee meets on Friday which more discussion could happen and more information could be collected that gets brought. So should we have one of these meetings like next week because it sounded like they didn't wanna wait two weeks? Is that plan B? I think that would be a better, better than waiting the full two weeks. So it's, today is best, could squeeze a week, but not to. Okay, thanks, Sharon. Yeah, I kind of wanted to do what Alex just did but I would love, so Ginny Hamilton is an attendee with her hand raised. She is the chair of our capital campaign committee. I think she could speak to the fundraising aspect of this if I didn't know if you could let Ginny into the room, Angela. She's on her way in, she just needs to unmute to speak. Hi, yes, thank you. Took a minute to come back in the room as a panelist and thank you, Sharon. So for those who don't know, I have worked both as a volunteer this fall as part of the Vote Yes campaign for the library referendum and I'm now working on the capital campaign in terms of raising the private funds to do this match. And in both cases, the sustainability of this project were key parts of the plan. For those not from Amherst and don't know the numbers, 65% of voters approved this project in November and one of our five key points was the sustainability, including details like the cross laminate timber. So the public is fully behind this and taking that out now, I think would have some pushback from folks in town who are proud to have these multiple environmental features in the new building. That's number one, number two from a strictly numbers standpoint, we have proposals pending right now with funders who want to fund sustainable capital projects. And if we were to start taking a few $100,000 out here, a few $100,000 out there, while we're even waiting to hear if we get that funding that cuts into our ability to raise the funds. So 110% support, Paul's point, that things are getting more expensive, we need to get moving and we have a lot of money to raise. And as the person, one of the people spearheading that raising, this cross laminate timber is one of the things we're asking for specific funding for. So I would hope that it would stay in the project as long as possible if that's the choice right now. And thanks for letting me speak before public comment. Thank you. I see Sean's hand is up. Yeah, I mean, I think the things that I would need in order to make a decision or make a decision I was confident it would be, what's the trade off? So we won't know that, right? We're not gonna know what the trade off is of this. If we do this, then what else are we taking away? Or like information from the sustainability experts to say there's more efficient or lower cost ways to achieve the same goal. And I don't know if we're gonna get that either. So I think it's a hard decision to make. I kind of lean towards not taking it out until we have all the information. Cause the delays are, you know, that is very, very costly with the designer fees, but also just one month of cost escalation is really a lot right now. So I'm lean towards not taking it out, but I think it's just hard to make a decision like this without having all the information. George. Just saying that having been a part of the sustainability committee formation and just listening to all the professionals throughout that whole process and discussing going with CLT, combining that with the fundraising issues. I just, I feel really strongly that taking it out would be a big mistake at this point. I don't see other hand. Oh, no, Sean. So the only thing I'll say is, you know, I do have to play my role as finance director and say this will mean harder decisions later, right? So as long as everyone, you know, sort of understands this will mean harder decisions at the end of schematic design and farther along in the process. Just want to do that caveat, play my role. Paul. I was going to build on that because I agree, you know, when you look at, if you have to do savings in a building, you look at the big ticket items that make it easier and those are things like this, roofs, you know, landscape or whatever it is, something, if we don't have the money, we have to take something out. And we all say this, oh, we're gonna have to make hard decisions. These are the hard decisions. So right now, this is the one that's before us. It's a hard decision. We're probably going to say, keep it in. And I think Jenny makes an important point that we're raising money around this. So that's persuasive to me. And I think holding the truth to the people who voted for the project at the ballot box is very important as well. But we made a lot of promises and then there's a blunt reality of what the economics are going to be for this project. So, you know, I just think that we're gonna have a lot of these decisions and they're gonna be compromised as they're gonna have to be made and we have to sort of be prepared. I won't say steal ourselves. I'll say cross laminate ourselves to be able to take them on. Thanks, Alex. Yeah, I think I'm probably gonna echo what other people have said. But, you know, I do think that, and I've thought this from the beginning that the sustainability aspects of the building really lend themselves to fundraising. And so I think that's a mistake. You know, I'm a mom of a 22 year old who's studying environmental science, environmental studies. And I have a hard time for, you know, my son's generation and future generations not making a commitment and a new building around sustainability. I just, I don't, I know there are tough decisions but I think not making this building as green as we can is a mistake based on the global catastrophe in the situation that we're living in right now. So I think we need to approve this and have tougher conversations in other places. So Craig, my question, because I think we all want this and there's two aspects to the building. There's building a green building or a building as green as you can. And then there's also building a building that operates as a green building. There's two parts to it. And this is the building part. And I do think, you know, we already have a budget that incorporates fundraising and we need that and then we might need more but just mimicking, you know, Sean, there's a hard budget there. So Craig, what I wanted to ask you is if we say yes to this, what are other things that we will be the next hard decisions that we have to consider cutting? Because we're not going to be able to have everything we want and especially with the big ticket items. If we say yes to this, then what might we have to say no to? So this would, I think be the first, the only really hard decision, sort of the go or no go for this early schematic design phase. And then you'll have another crack at it at the end of schematic design. But as I was saying earlier, then you won't realize as much saving. The other, there are other areas of the building that money can be taken out of, specifically the exterior envelope, some of the roof in the skylight scheme that the design team has put in. There may, you know, on the top docket for discussion would be the other operationally sustainable design elements, the ECMs, energy conservation measures. The site can be simplified significantly to save money. And then possibly some money can be taken out of the fixtures furniture furnishings and equipment, the FF&E. So there are other areas where costs could be reduced if needed. Well, that's good to hear in the way that, you know, we're debating over a sustainability option. And a lot of the things you mentioned are aesthetics outside of the building skylights. They're all also lovely, nice to haves, but that might be what we end up wobbling with and we should consider now, you know, if we go with the sustainable options and, you know, we, something has to give at some point probably. So all right, thanks for that. I know many facility managers who will be happy with fewer skylights, so. Are there any other questions or motion? I see Paul's physically, yep. Yeah, so the question I guess is, is the question yes or no, or is the question yes until we get more information? But so it's just sort of like where are we, Craig, it's sort of like what path are we going to walk down? Are we saying we're not going to go down the CLT, or are we going to go down steel, or are we going to say, we're going to still keep walking down CLT until we, but we can turn around. You're just saying that if we walk further down, it's going to be harder to walk back and you're not going to have as robust savings. So I think what we're saying today is, this is not a definitive decision necessarily, but all things being equal, we'd like to walk down the CLT path, which is just maintaining the existing design, not making a change in the design. So no action even needs to be taken necessarily. That's exactly right, Paul. So making the decision now, definitive decision for CLT gives the design team the direction they need to proceed. If later on it's determined, hey, you're not going to have a project. We've got to cut back severely. That is something that could be taken out. It's just that you won't necessarily reap the cost reduction of 500,000 anymore. It's going to be less than that. Alex? Yeah, I'm just looking for a little guidance from this committee too. I mean, if we need to call a sustainability subcommittee meeting to address questions or to, like if there's something we need to do so that people feel more prepared or get questions answered from the full complement of the committee versus one person, that would be good to have that information. Todd? Yes, thanks. In regards to a person who works almost, concentrates anyway on the heating and cooling of buildings and doing the heating and cooling loads, I would also like to confess my bias against skylights, as well as anybody who's had to deal with a leaking skylight, which I'm looking at right now. And as far as what you can go back and do differently later, FF&E and exterior features can certainly be improved or added to down the road. You're not going to go back and retrofit the structure of a building. And once that's built in, it's built in. And I would also like to say, as I've been perusing the Fine Gold Alexander report, is they estimated the cost premium for the cross laminated timber at $366,000. And that was a pre-pandemic in current escalation. So I just want to tip my hat to them for that cost estimate. That's pretty darn good. So by keeping the scale T could be a no action, but I do think we need to send a vote to or a message to FAA that says that, that proceed and keep doing, that's what they want to know. Can they go ahead with that? Or there's could be a motion or something saying that, we're not comfortable doing this today and we need more information and to do it in like a week. So I'm looking to you all for direction here. Are we, I'd like to move that we tell, that we vote to keep the CLTs and the ECMs as are currently in the schematics. Is that a motion? It is. Second. Yeah. I can't third it. Yeah. Is Todd, you have your hand up. No, I'm okay. I'm sorry. That's okay. Just checking. So we have a motion on the table here. Logistics question. Can we just have discussion now and then vote or do we have to, okay. So the motion is to keep the CLT and the other environmental sustainable elements of the building and tell that to our designer and to move forward at this point. So is there any comments or discussion anyone who, and feel free, you know, if you're not comfortable with making a decision right now, this is where you would speak up. Austin, I see your hand. Thank you, Christine. Apologize for coming late. If this question was already answered, isn't necessary that we say anything about the ECMs at this point. So what I understood was that what we were being asked was about the cross-laminated timber because that goes into the kind of basic design. I didn't understand that we're being asked to now say anything about the ECMs. Indeed, I understood that the ECMs are one of the places where, if we needed to make some reductions of costs, we would have some latitude in reducing some of the ECMs. So, but again, I came late. So maybe that is, maybe that's- No, excellent question. I have the same concern, meaning- Could I just actually then just finish because what I'd like to persuade us to do is to not vote to maintain the CLT and the ECMs at this point, but only to focus on what we were asked to focus on, which is the cross-laminated timber. But I didn't make the most out of it. So modify and I'll share on that. Could we modify it to just include the CLT and not the other sustainable elements since we're not being asked at this point to weigh in on that? Except that maybe we are. And I'm gonna look at Craig now. There have been so many back and forth via email and I know CLT, they want confirmation of that, but I thought ECMs were in that too, Craig. So in speaking with the design team, they are comfortable proceeding with schematic design without a solid decision on that because those ECMs are things that come up in the engineering specifications. It's something that can be more easily just plugged in or taken out if needed. Awesome, then I'll change my motion to say, I move that we tell the architects we would like to maintain the CLT. And is there still a second on that? Are we still second? Yes, second. Okay, great. So that's the, it's a refined motion on the table right now. It's just to give FAA the go ahead on designing with CLTs. Is there any other questions, concerns? I'm not seeing any hands. So I'll bring this to a roll call vote. Is everyone, you're not clear on the motion. Raise your hand, but I'll call Paul Backelman. Can you just say the motion again so we know what we're voting on? So the motion I believe is that we're saying to FAA the designers for them to move forward with their schematic design utilizing CLT. Yep, I see your hand. And is it my understanding that this is not a definitive decision that if we need to revisit this down the road, we are able to revisit this decision. This is just a, where do we start walking decisions? It's not the endpoint decision. I think, and Craig tell me if I'm wrong but how I understand it is this is definitive. They are going to start designing it using this rather than steel and that there is a time we can shift again at the end of schematic design but it will cost money because it will cost approximately at least a month of time setback because they'll have to go back and redesign elements of the building and it will cost us money that was their time to do that. So there will be a cost to us if we decide to later at the end of schematic design pull back from this choice. So meaning, oh, if we pull back at the end of schematic design, we don't save 506,000. It would be something less than that. Is that clear with anyone? Are there any more hands? And Craig, is there anything, did I miss something? Nope, you said it exactly right. All right, so if that's understood now. So this is kind of, it is pretty serious. This is definitive. We are telling our designers, go forth on your design software, plug it in loads and trusses and all that good stuff with CLT and not steel. And it will cost an, you know, it's 506,000 dollars as of this moment or a few weeks ago when we got the Tennessee new cost estimate. And I'm still not seeing any hands. So I will, with that motion, I'm gonna go through a roll call. So this is again to tell our designers, FAA to yes for the half million dollars go forth and design the building with CLT. Paul Backelman. I'm gonna vote no because I don't feel like I have enough information to make a informed choice. So my vote is no. Okay. George Hicks Richards. My vote is yes. Alex Lefebvre. Yes. Nika Lopes. Yes. Just checking to see who's here. Okay. Sean Angano. I'll abstain for the same reason that Paul described. That was an abstain. Yeah. Austin. It would really be helpful if Paul and Sean would just say out loud what information, I'm not quarreling with it, but what information is, do you feel that is lacking right now? I can say that after we finish the vote. I said it before you came, Austin. Okay, that's what I'm totally about. I vote yes and I'm curious to hear what happens. And Sharon Shari. Yes. And I vote yes. Christine, do you want me to just briefly say what I had said before about? Sure, you or Paul. I'm looking for hands. Yeah, whoever. Yeah, Austin. Just to make clear, Paul, you said no, right? Did I miss that? Yeah, and you abstained. Okay, go ahead. Austin, I think the things that I had said was, we don't know what the trade-off is at this point, so we don't know by accepting this or moving forward with this what that means will, the hard decision that we'll have to make later. So I think not knowing what the trade-off is makes it hard to make a decision on it now. And then I wasn't 100% clear, based on what Todd had said, are there more efficient ways to reduce the carbon than this? Because it sounded like maybe there are potentially, but so those are my two reasons. And so, I mean, I was very persuaded by Jenny's comments about the fundraising needs for this. So that was, that makes it hard for me to say no, but I felt like, you know, this is a, it was being defined as a definitive vote the way Christine explained it. And I'm not comfortable with voting for that. Alex? Yeah, I guess I just wanna ask a quick question to make sure that I'm understanding. So, Sean, when you talk about the trade-offs, I assume that's why I'm checking is, are you talking about the cost of the difference in cost if we were to go with steel construction versus the CLTs? And if that's the case, if a designer is talking about charging us for additional design work, if we change our mind, is that a knowable cost without them doing the design work? Yeah, no, I mean, so we know we're gonna have to make some difficult decisions and right now we're sort, this is one lever, right? This is one option. And we're kind of committing to this without knowing what it is on the road that because we're saying yes to this, we're gonna have to do something different in the future. And so not knowing what that hard other thing that we're not gonna be able to do is, makes it hard, makes it difficult to weigh in on this. So I guess my question to Craig is, is that a knowable? Like I hear what you're saying. I don't think it is no. I mean, that's why it's just difficult to make this decision at this phase and not at the end of schematic when we have sort of all the different options in front of us. And I get from Craig's point why we have to, but to me that's what makes it difficult is that we don't have all the different options to try to, we don't have that final cost estimate or not final, but the updated cost estimate at that point to know, maybe we don't have a budget issue at that point, maybe costs are under control and cost escalation is bad. And that's not an issue, but. Okay, thank you. So I believe we're done with that item. Craig, that was item four A, did you have anything to add for B, interim locations? Yes, I've got a quick update, something following up on a request that was made at the last building committee meeting. So Christine, if you'll permit me, I will share my screen. Is that okay with you? I share my screen. I'll go for it, yeah, hopefully. It's more about Angela, I'm like. Gotcha, gotcha. Yeah, so I, it was more just asking, you know, for permission. Yeah, no, no. All right. You always have, share all you want, always. Awesome, thank you. So this looks, this may look familiar. You guys can see that, can't you? Yes, we can. Okay, so this looks familiar to the last schedule, but I've gussied it up with some extra, some additional information. So I'll quickly walk you through that. I've thrown, I've thrown a red line on here so that as we proceed through the project, it'll be easy for everyone to visualize where we are in the process, things that are coming up. I've added under the design phase, I've broken that down a little bit and added some dates in here when they are anticipated to be complete. If you were to do a side-by-side comparison with the last schedule, you would note that schematic design now goes through the end of July before it was going through mid-July and that reflects when schematic design, when find gold Alexander was able to start, as I was saying earlier, sort of crank up the machinery. And so that'll be, that was earlier this week versus kind of mid-April when we were originally, when I had originally put the schedule together. Another addition is down here, I've added a category for temporary location. So this was really what the building committee was asking about last time is how does that fit into our schedule, those decisions, construction, things of that nature. So we've already, the ball's already rolling as far as talking about that temporary library space, where will people be able to go when the Jones Library is being worked on? Ooh, and I've spelled, did I spell public wrong? Yeah, there's an extra L in there, public. So public, that's supposed to say public input. So for the next, say, three, four months, that's when the public's input similar to design will have the most impact on where these temporary locations are, location or locations. Couple of months to secure the space, get the lease or agreement worked out. There will be some, presumably there'll be some work that needs to be done, some light construction work to make it suitable for your needs for the time that it's in service. And so we've got, I think six months to design that, document it, put it out to bid and get a contract going, then a couple of months to build it out. This is just sort of a guess. There'll be a period of downtime and anticipated period of downtime where only the, oh, and actually now that I noticed one of my notes fell off, this hatched area read something to the effect of only the satellite branches in service for this same month. Then happening prior to the construction phase, which is a key relationship, that temporary location will be up and running. So the temporary location continues functioning through the end of construction. Once construction is complete, moving activity into the new Jones library occurs, new furnishings and equipment arrive, everything gets set up and ready to go. We presume there'll be another, say month or so of downtime at the end, while equipment, computers, everything is moved over and reactivated into the new location in anticipation of this ultimate occupancy when the library is fully operational and open for business. The other thing that people comparing this schedule to the last schedule will notice is I had shown this red sort of star or cross four point star indicates when we anticipate substantial completion would be achieved and previously I had it in January. So that bumped a little bit as the schematic design phase bumped out, that bumped over to say at the end of January, beginning of February. And then as I was counting my months out, realized that I was anticipating being able to move in the furniture and everything else to make the library run earlier before construction was really done. And I think that this project is gonna need every day of the 18 month construction period that we're envisioning. So to give the future general contractor as much time as possible to fully control the building, I pushed this out to say end of March, early April, before you guys can really start moving things in. And that is a decision that we can talk about as we're going through the design, either either phasing or moving things in before construction is complete. Sometimes the building inspector will allow say furnishings to go in. But that's I think the decision for another time. For now, I've adjusted things to be a little more conservative, a little more cut and dry. So that was a really long explanation of just, we've added some things to this schedule, specifically the temporary location timeline. That's great, thank you. Are there any questions? Are there any raise hands? I don't see any yet, but I'll ask on the just one of our upcoming ones for schematic design. It says completed July 29th. So does that mean FA delivers us a schematic design to the building committee here and we vote yes, move forward on that or it has to be all done by that date? So the schematic design, the eight weeks happens in May and June, and then the time in July will be spent getting a cost estimate, reconciling it, so we'll actually get two cost estimates. My office will solicit one on behalf of the town kind of neutral and then the design team will likely have a fantasy who has done the previous cost estimate, give it another cost estimate, we'll reconcile the two. It's always nice to have kind of two voices or two opinions about what things are going to cost in the future. Then yes, then we will present that to the library building committee and ultimately MBLC will also get a look at the schematic design set, but then yes, ultimately we'll be looking to the building committee to review the cost, review the design and say yes, please find goal Alexander, please proceed to the design development phase. And just to follow up after MBLC is that when we also put in the historic commissions, the state and the Amherst? I actually don't have a very good answer for you about that. I don't wanna misspeak. So let me, I'll do a little more research and make sure I've got all my ducks and roll. Angela did provide me with some very helpful links. So I'll dig into that and make sure that that is incorporated. Okay, great. Are there any questions? Anyone? I must be obsessed with schedule because I have one more. So on your Paul Blick input. So is that an outreach subcommittee for they need to have something that they solicit comment on the temporary location and do they wait to do that until a list or either one has been defined or there's a choice? I guess ultimately the outreach subcommittee that's a decision for them, but my recommendation would be yes, start asking the community where what information the community can provide to help inform that decision. Great, thanks. And who is there someone looking for temporary locations? I have reached out to a couple of people in the know in town. I was hoping to actually have a phone conversation today, but it didn't happen. So I have some feelers out. Great. Okay, so this is in your wheelhouse. Sharon, you're looking for... Yeah. Okay, good to know. Sean, I see your hand. So I'm just looking at the milestone for June of 2023. I just wanna make sure are we pretty confident we'll be able to hit that date so we can get that milestone payment in June or is that just sort of a placeholder for getting it? I just know if we miss a fiscal year for milestones and I think we have to wait a whole other fiscal year in order to get that payment. And just curious if you feel like that's pretty solid to get it in June of 2023. So, yes. So this estimate or anticipated date was based on the MVLCs requirements to get payment number two. And I do believe... So I think what they need is they need that final construction documents and then they review it and approve it. So yes, I feel confident that that's a good date but that is a good point especially when it comes way down the road. So then there would be getting the next one. I think it was like after like 50% of the construction's done then the final one, the fourth one happens after the building is occupied and then the fifth one is the next fiscal year and all the close up documents have been provided. And so it'll be important to hit this date, to hit this occupancy in order to trigger or become eligible for that fourth payment prior to the end of the fiscal year so that you can get your next one in 2025 and not have to wait 11 months. Right, thank you. But to give you a short answer to your original question is yes, I feel pretty confident about that. Thank you. So Craig, is there anything else is the OPM that you want to report or talk about at this meeting or I'll move on to pass it back to Austin and we'll move to five. I do have one more thing, but Christine, I'll ask if you want me to bring it up now or wait until the item where things couldn't be anticipated for you at ours in advance because it's not on the actual agenda but it's the topic of visiting other libraries. If it's okay with Austin, I'll let you do that now only because you talked about it some at the last design subcommittee meeting which I was present at. Okay, so the question came up, hey, is there a benefit to visiting some existing libraries in Massachusetts that maybe have some similar aspects to them that as a group, the building committee or whomever wants to go can learn from and help inform decision making on this project. So the question was put to the design team and MBLC. The design team said, Holyoke while it's not a perfect example of what you were looking for here in Amherst, it does have some similarities in that it's got a large addition, modern addition to a historic building. So that's one that is recommended and it's not too far from you guys. The other two were recommendations by, what's up here is these are all the projects that MBLC has done in recent years broken down by new construction exclusively or add Renault broken down by size, small, medium, large, you guys are in this large category. And the two that Andrea from MBLC recommended was Medford, which is a hike, but it's a large project. And I believe she recommended that one because they handled all sustainability issues as well. So there's some, maybe there's some insight into what they did and how successful it was, what's worked now that they're open, what's working better or not as good. And then the other one, which is kind of in that, also far from you guys, but in that same neighborhood only about 15 minute drive away as Wooburn and Wooburn is a historic structure with a modern addition added on to a completed back in 2019. And so what I would offer up is I can, if there's interest either amongst building committee members or design subcommittee, anybody who would like to go represent or learn more, I can set up, I can attempt, if I'm given a day, I believe I think all three of these could be visited in a single day. So starting early in the morning and then getting home kind of for, just in time for dinner, but I'd be willing to reach out to these different libraries and set, coordinate those visits. They'd be, ideally, they would be kind of tours that someone who is knowledgeable about those particular libraries will tour us around and give us kind of the insiders take on things. And about group size, I would say the magic number is kind of no more than say 10, maybe 12 people. Once you have more than that, then it becomes hard for everybody to kind of hear the same thing and see what's going on. But there is benefit to having a group visit or a group tour. And so that's what I'm proposing, but I will leave it to you guys to decide how you wanna do it. The other thing is we could also just, people could visit libraries on their own, but in my experience, that's not as, it doesn't generate as much shared knowledge or kind of baseline knowledge. So Craig, just so everyone knows, this is sort of like an industry standard norm of called benchmarking and you go and like lessons learned. Like, so you're supposed to be seeing what other people did and not learn from their mistakes, but learn from their wins and things that maybe they would do differently, which would give us an education to what we're moving through. Exactly right. Okay, so are there any comments or questions or if you click up your hand, it could also mean that you're interested. Would anyone wanna do this? I see some hands coming up. Ooh, quickly. I know I would and I see a couple of other hands going up. So would there be, is there a minimum if there's like four or five of us, would that be okay? And would you set up a doodle poll or something to try to narrow us down? Yes, absolutely. Okay, so how about we just move ahead with that and everyone watch, I guess, for an email from Craig and you can, you know, even if you're on the fence, maybe still do the doodle poll and put, you know, and just put like maybe or something. Cause I do think it would be very educational and helpful, especially I assume the person from the live each would give us a representative, someone would walk around and answer our questions and give us insight on how it went the whole process. All right, thanks Craig. Is that all? That was a lot. Yeah, sorry, that's all for now. Oh, that's great. All right, so I'm gonna, Austin, do you wanna take over item five, subcommittee reports? Thank you, Christina. Thank you for presiding and getting apologies for my being late. Thanks so much. So subcommittee, Christine, design. Just keep it going. That was very depth, Christine. Thank you. We met on April 29th and FAA was there and it was a lot about what we talked about today. We're really trying to get organized and figure out process and how communication is gonna go between the committee as a whole and the two committees and the designers and the OPM and all that. So we're working through that and I think it will get easier, especially we have, which, because now I'm gonna, and our next meeting is this Friday, Friday the 13th at 9 a.m. And I'm going to transition to Alex and her report because the next thing we'll be diving into is all the comments that were solicited and collected through the outreach committee's efforts. So are there any questions about the design subcommittee before we transition? I do want to just remind us that for both design and outreach, if members of this committee who are not members of those committee want to say anything or make any suggestions, the appropriate place to do it is in this meeting. Okay, thank you, Christine. Alex. Thanks. So we met on May 6th, which was Friday. And as everybody knows, we had the May 1st event, which thank you. I incorrectly reported the numbers at that event and at the board meeting. We actually had about 120 people in attendance at that event, not the 75, I said in the first place. We had 216 unique public comments, 400 in total if you count people, agreeing with or boosting people's comments. After the event, all of the comments were typed up in two ways. One was a way to repost them in the library to continue to collect feedback. And this week we've had 70 additional comments added since the event of the weekend. Those comments also were put into a spreadsheet that Collier's crime very kindly sort of outlined how he thought might make the most sense to be able to pass that information onto the design committee and this committee. All of you, it's a living document. It's a Google document. Everybody should have access to it. Christine and I have edit capabilities as the chairs of the subcommittee, everybody else has view capabilities. My hope was that way, nothing got accidentally messed up. So if somebody else needs edit capability, just let me know. And that document is being updated daily in real time. So whenever you go to access it, it'll look different. I can keep going or we can pause there. I don't know what you want to do, Austin. All right, any questions or comments at this point? Okay, I'll just keep going. Okay, so after the event, we created meeting to go. So portable binders that are essentially every table that was there along with the building program elements so that people can quickly look and see what's in each space as well as pictures from other libraries like we had at the event, as well as the feedback that was collected at the event. It doesn't have the additional 70 comments we've gotten today. But again, with the idea that people will have the ability to just keep adding comments. And so these binders are going out into the public. So we have our first two events tomorrow. There is, and I should preface by saying that we're working on a calendar that's sort of like you can find the library and the binder to come comment at these events. And so that's being created. But we do have an event tomorrow, which is the two events. So one is with the rec department, the library is working at Kendrick Park. It's an early release day tomorrow. So from 12 to two at Kendrick, the rec department is handing out summer sports activity bags, the library is doing story time. And then we'll also have a binder there for people to add their comments. The Bang Center is doing a, the senior center is doing an open house from one to three and we'll also be there as well and have a binder there. The binder will be at the farmers market on Saturdays every week. We have an event with the town and with Crests. It's a community based event at Olympia Oaks with Butternut being invited. And then on June 11th at Village Park that times on both those events were still TBD. And the works is at the survival center, Applewood, Greenleaves, and then two virtual events. And then also the binders are essentially at the library for library staff. So whenever they're partnering like they are with Amherst Rack or like they are with the senior center, they'll let the outreach committee know and we'll provide volunteers who can go and participate in the event and continue to collect community feedback. And I can pause there if that's a good point to pause. Questions. Okay. The last piece I was hoping to have had a meeting with UMass, but unfortunately that didn't happen. I'm waiting for one of the community participation officers to get back to me to schedule that meeting. But the town is working with UMass on participation tools. And I believe Pauline Angel can probably speak to it more than I can, but my understanding is that we would have the ability to use these participation tools. And since we are simultaneously collecting feedback while the design team is working on the schematics with architects, we wanted to propose that potentially we would use these tools during the design subcommittee meetings that would allow for real feedback as designs are being discussed. And I had hoped to have a meeting with UMass, but again, maybe Angela or Paul can speak a little bit more about that. And maybe not, I don't know. Or at least how it works. So these are tools that we've been piloting on various locations that give real-time feedback to people, to participants as they're talking that you can thumbs up, thumbs down things in real-time. It's a way to engage people in the discussions of things and gives feedback to the decision-makers as they go through the process. It's really being organized through Brianna's CPL and she's really the one that would help set this up there. It takes some time and some education. So you wanna be clear about what your goals are and if this is the right tool for the goal. Great. I've got Anika and then Christine. Anika? Yes, I just also wanted to point out, Alex, I'm not sure if you've had a chance to see it, but both Angela and Angela Mills and Jennifer Moisten sent back a list of some more fantastic ideas that I think will work well in addition to what you're talking about to incorporate, especially between now and July 1. Thank you, Anika. Christine? Yeah, so on planning board, I guess I'm asking Paul, is this when people have the clickers and stuff? So I was just wondering how that would work if we're still remote or would that be when we have meetings in person? Yeah, it's not actual, it's not a physical device. It's something you do on your phone typically. Okay. It's virtual. Okay, so people who come to watch the meeting could have instructions on how. Oh yeah, that's how it works, yes. It's functional for Zoom. Great, thanks. Thanks, Christine. Other questions, thoughts, observation about the outreach committee and its plans? Alex? So I just, so it sounds like Paul, based on what you're saying about setting goals, does it make sense for Christine to join us in the call we have with UMass to sort of set up goals, expectations as the chair of the sub, since it's your meeting that they wouldn't be attending, that makes sense. So once I get dates back from Brianna. Absolutely, it's interesting, yeah, yeah. Great, now I'm up for it, great. Great, thank you. Alex, anything else from outreach? The only other thing I would say our next meeting is May 16th, 17th, whatever Tuesday is, 17th. Four, is that right, any, four? Four o'clock. Great, thank you, thank you, Alex. Okay, no question, no more questions about outreach, no more questions about design. Okay, next item is correspondence. To the best of my knowledge, we have no correspondence. Is that right, Angie? There was an email that came in late after the previous meeting and it was added under public comment in the last set of minutes. So other than that, I'm not aware of any other correspondence. Great, okay, that email you said was added to the minutes. Great, okay, topics not anticipated by the chair, I know of nothing that hasn't been anticipated. Now we have three attendees, I think I see in the participant list. Now it's an opportunity for public comment. If any of our attendees like to make a public comment, this would be inappropriate time to do it. Okay, Ginny. Since I got to speak earlier, I wanted to make sure others had a chance, but I just wanted to come back in both and as a member of the public to thank you all for all of the detailed work you're putting in on this. And also to speak with the fundraising hat on is a reminder that yes, we are gonna have to make some hard decisions. That's reality, that's life these days, that's budgeting and that's adulting, right? And it's not necessarily that cutting one thing means we got another or vice versa. The other option is raising more. And one of the unique pieces of this project compared to all of our capital projects in town right now is that this one distinctly does have the private fundraising aspect to it and a committed group that is barely getting started in terms of being able to raise the fund to make this project to be what we're envisioning it be. So yes, you all are the people charged with making the hard decisions and I respect that deeply. And I wanna know, want you to know that there is a lot of enthusiasm and we have as opposed to we have not yet begun to fight cause we all know we fight a lot in this town, we have not yet really begun to raise. And so there's a lot of excitement and ability to raise the funds to fulfill the project that we're looking for. So keep that in mind as you're making the hard choices and thank you again for your service. Thank you, Ginny. I hope you will come to every meeting and say those exact sentences over and over and over again. As long as I can get back in time to get my kid from music lesson, we're good. Thank you. Todd Holland. Thank you, Austin. Ginny, I would like to emphasize what you said and just relate a story that I was on the building committee for the South Amherst Church when the trustees decided to go carbon neutral, I think in almost 10 years ago, maybe nine years ago and being on the building committee and tasked with taking care of the physical envelope of the church. I went before the trustees and recommended as a very practical engineer that rather than go 100% carbon neutral, they should follow the science and go 80% carbon neutral by 2050 or whatever. And the board of trustees looked at me like I had two heads because they said they couldn't interest anybody in a vision of going 80% there. And of course they were successful and went 100% there, so. Thank you, Todd. Okay, any other public comments or pledges of money? All right, seeing none, it looks like it's my favorite moment. Motion to adjourn. Oh, move. Is there a second to the motion? Second. Good, George Hicks, how do you vote? Yes. Sharon. Yes. Christine. Alex. Yes. Anika. Yes. Sean. Yes. Town Manager Backelman. Yes. All right. Sarah, vote yes. Thanks again to Christine for presiding and a lot of good work done today. We look forward to seeing you in a couple of weeks. Stay well, everybody. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.