 Yr wych i chi fyddai'r gwaith i gweithio i gyffredinol byddai y trofyn Cymru yn 2014? Rydw i chi i chi i chi fyddai'r ffordd, yn fawr i chi gwych ar yr hyn a'r unrhyw gweithiau ymlaen. Yn ystod ar gyfer y Gŵr, ymlaen i chi gydig i'r gwneud o'r cyfodol yma i gydig i gydig i'r gwneud o'r gwneud o'r gwneud o'r gwneud o'r ystod of the evidence that we will receive today on food banks in private. Members of the committee agreed that we take that item in private. That brings us to item 2, which is our evidence session on the issue of food banks and whether there are possible links to the UK Government's welfare reforms. Individual members of the committee have themselves been visiting food banks in their local areas to inform our evidence session this morning. Later Gerson yma yw unrhyw rhaid i chi ar y cyffredinol yr Oeddwn suspicion o ffordd aethau yr adnod yn Sgolwnt. Felly, fawr am y gwirio'r ffordd wedi fawr i'ch gweithio ein cyffredinol. Maer i chi, yw Mary Hayes, y Cyffredinol Mae Ysbryd Rhaid, Cymru Ysbryd, Cymru Ysbryd, Cymru�u Rhondda, Cymru Cymru Edrym, Ysbryd Wrthysgu, Farshare Ed yna, chief executive community food initiatives north-east, Dennis Curran, chairman of loaves and fishes, Joe Roberts, development lead community food Murray, and Ewingur Scotland, development officer at the Truswell Trust. For transparency, I have been working in support of Ewingur's efforts in north and south Lanarkshire to establish food banks on behalf of the Truswell Trust. The round table format enables members of the committee to ask questions directly of the witnesses, but I hope that it is more of an interaction. We will try to keep it structured, but as informal as possible. If you want to make a comment or ask a question, just give me an indication and we will keep the discussion flowing as long as we can. Hopefully everyone will get an opportunity to help inform us, tell us what you are doing, what your experiences are, but equally, if you have suggestions as to what the committee can take forward from this discussion, then please make suggestions as well. Do not think you are just here to give us information. Sign posters in the direction that you think we need to go. In order to kick things off, I think that the deputy convener wanted to ask a question or make an observation and then I will just open up to anyone who does not have to be in any particular order. If you feel that you want to make a contribution, just let me know. Thank you, convener. It is a question rather than an observation. Although it is informed by an observation, I have observed that the UK Government has made a number of statements related to the increased use of food banks. They refute that there is any direct correlation between their welfare reform process and the increased utilisation of food banks in Scotland and across the rest of the United Kingdom. I understand that one of their ministers even wrote to Glasgow City Council on stage and suggested that the more efficient use of food by supermarkets as a disposal of food might be a driver in the growth of food banks. How do you respond to the UK Government saying that there is no correlation between their welfare reform process and maybe even the particular point that they have made about supermarkets' food efficiency being a driver in the growth in the number of food banks? That is just an open question to everyone. I do not know who would like to respond first. I suppose that I can only speak from my own experience, but having read some of the evidence from other people, I think that it is very clear in our experiences that welfare reform certainly has an impact on the increase in our use of the food bank. We personally in Murray do not use any surplus food from supermarkets anyway in our food bank. I think that I am looking at it as representing a fair share in Scotland and Cyrinians, which work in the field of homelessness and social exclusion. Certainly access to our homeless prevention service and the need for emergency food packs have increased because people have less money in their pocket basically. It is rising rents, rising food costs, rising fuel costs and income not rising alongside it. I think that it is deeper than that. For us there is a problem when people need food, but we need to get why they need food and solve it at a different level. I think that is the big thing that we are putting a bit of a plaster on and not getting to the root of the problem. Certainly there is a total increase in the number of people. We are doubling the number of emergency food packs, which are well managed through ensuring that it is not just a food pack but the support that goes with it. Why is there a problem and what do we need to do to resolve it? You made an interesting comment and said that people's incomes had not kept up or decreased. The perception that I have picked up is that people think that those who are going to food banks are unemployed people and people who have no income. You are clearly saying that that has an impact on people who are working and have an income but are not able to meet the demands of increases elsewhere. Is that right? Yes, absolutely. I would like to make it clear that fair share is not a food bank and that is not our business. Our business is in saying that surplus good quality within date for condition and to see that it is absolutely right. It is the same food as you would eat at home and I would eat at home. It goes to the right place. For us it is dealing with hostels, it is dealing with soup kitchens, it is dealing with projects who have reduced budgets, who are finding that they are having more people who are homeless or at risk of being homeless access to their services. For us it is about that as well. That is a big growth area. Somehow I think that that knowledge is being diminished because there is rightly so a big drive with food banks but we are forgetting the people that are the hidden people below that. Often that is going to be the people that are accessing food banks today that are becoming the people that are in hostels tomorrow. So it is a wider picture. Dennis, you want to? The experience of lost fishes, we are a totally voluntary group. We get no government funding whatsoever and we are totally depending on people's goodwill. Now I have a couple of stores approached me and the food they want to offer me is bashtins and stuff that is coming out of date and when I tell them we do not use it, they look at me, you do not use it. I said very simply, my wife comes into your store she does not say where is your aisle for the bashtins and where is your aisle for the out-of-date stuff. People are coming and we are in the middle of no man's land. We have people coming and we bits of children and they are walking free in four miles. There seems to be a fallacy going out that is misused, is greed. These people are layabouts, they are robes, they are people that are in total dismay, they are frightened, they are insecure, they have no money. I have got a phone call beast the other day there, the social work department. Can you give us food for a family that they do not need to cook because they have no money for their electricity. The picture that the Government spends in totally their own picture, people are coming here, they come to us last night, we were in at Neffield St Stephen's, we do a meal there. When the last came he sent for a job, done two hours work and even brushed the floor up when he was finished and he was not asked to do work, didn't he. The manager is coming down and says to me, you are not suitable and you never get a penny for these two hours work. That is immoral. When these things happen in 2014, these things are immoral for somebody to do anything, whether the labour is worthy or not, if they have went there and done the best they could and they are maybe not suitable, they are still entitled to the payment they have put in for a job. I don't think anybody in here would be tolling away through here next week if they want to get in time for their day's labour today. This is happening all the time. The amount of people that come to us, it's sanctioned. It's unbelievable that a man that comes to us has been sanctioned for 11 weeks. That's 11 weeks without any money. Oh, it's mis use, they're coming back to you. Of course they're coming back to you. If you have no money this week and you don't get any money next week, how are you going to do that yourself? Who a lady had yet for three days because she was feeding her children? Do these things get buried under the table? Do they not come to you late? It's easier to say whether thieves, liars, cheats and layabouts, they mis use their benefit systems. The benefit systems are based in the national poverty line. Who are the companies that's paying below the national poverty line? Name them and shame them. Who are the companies that's no paying a land revenue? When the government brought this out, they had a meeting on Thursday. They made a decision on Thursday to change the benefit system. On Tuesday it was made law fact. At the same time we're talking about looking at these companies that's no paying the proper tax. We're still looking at these people no paying the proper tax. It's the most simplest thing in the world to solve. Use the managing director of this company and we reckon use that tax. You have no pay that. Not to pay your taxes unlawful. It's not paid by the end of next month. You, you and you's gone to jail. That's basically what you're doing to the people that's going for benefits. You're not getting it. I don't think you're worthy of payment. That's for that sin. What is it we're going to do? 2014 and people can't eat? Dave. Dave Summers, community food initiatives north east. We have the fair share franchise up in the north east but we've also over the last year been running our own food bank. To go back to the original question, anecdotally we've got strong evidence of the impact of welfare reform on the usage of food banks but I think undoubtedly there's a need to back that up with independent research. I'm delighted those two institutions, RGU and the Rout Institute have approached us about being involved in some independent research over the use of the food bank which I think we need to back up the anecdotal stuff. It is important, I think as Mr Curran was saying, folk who've been awarded benefit but it's taken four, five, six weeks for the money to come through. Clearly they're in a bad place. Mr Johnston kindly came and visited us the other week and one of the issues for me at the moment is to separate the policy from the bureaucratic implementation and what I'm clear about is some of the situations we're dealing with. Is that the policy or is it actually the implementation so the management might be expecting X, Y and Z but actually on the ground it's interpreted differently. Anyway independent researchers need to back up the anecdotal evidence which is considerable. Just briefly, I think David is pointing out something that is very important. We talk about the welfare reform process but there is a welfare reform process going on but there is also an issue about the way offices work, the way DWP offices work that aren't associated with the welfare reform process, they're more associated with office practice and I think there are two quite distinct issues that we need to be very careful to keep a separate understanding of. Jamie, and then London? It's just that I agree entirely with Mr Simmers in terms of the requirement to try and quantify this and I'm aware because I'm sure we all have read the trussel trusts submission, they have quantified it to the degree so perhaps Mr Gurk can come in and tell us that and also I know that Joker may be talking a little as well because I was really interested to read in a community food Murray's submission that from April 2013 when a lot of the reforms came in to be online you said the impact of welfare reform was evident almost overnight if you can maybe quantify that to be helpful in answering that point as well. Wanda, sorry I'll take the questions from the committee members if it's okay because you were asked for some more information by Jamie so I'll give you an opportunity but I'll take Wanda and Kevin just to see if there's any other questions that are emerging at this time before coming to our witnesses again. It's just this question of process and policy, those that set the policy are responsible for the process. DWP are a Government agency so it's an absolute cop-out for Emdy to sit there and say it's the difference between process and policy. Get it right because there's people that are hungry and I would suggest that the best evidence of all is the rise in the use of food banks. That's the clearest indication to me. When I was first representing Escobride in the New But Loaves and Fishes I thought about Loaves and Fishes as a group of great volunteers who went round and fed people who were hungry. My association with that was going to Renfield St Stephen's and helping homeless people in the streets for whatever reason they were there but now since these benefit changes what we're actually talking about is normal everyday families and it could be the families and friends of any one of us sitting round this table, people that are working and doing their best. It has completely changed so yes we need independent evidence but let's not try and deny that the evidence is already there. It's absolutely there in every community in Scotland and I would like to know from folk around the table just how that rise has manifested itself and the difference in numbers with what they're dealing with as opposed to how it was just a couple of years ago. I think Kevin and then I'll come back to your witnesses again. I'm interested in what Mr Curran said about the distances that folk are walking to access food and I was an instant neighbour in Aberdeen a couple of weeks ago and they ask folk where they have come from and folk have travelled four, five miles and the evidence of coming by car probably couldn't afford the bus fares which are rather expensive in Aberdeen to say the least. That is a huge distance for someone to walk particularly with their bairns to access food. Now while that may be easier, a little bit easier in urban areas, how are we tackling this in the rural areas in particular? I know that Joe will have experience, Dave will have experience of this because sometimes walking that four to five miles maybe isn't as hard in the city of Aberdeen as it is in rural Murray even if there is something close by. Beyond that, convener, I think one of the reasons why we invited Dave Simmers here today is because of the experience of Aberdeen Food Bank's partnership. I think we should hear more about what that partnership is achieving and beyond that why it is that certain groups have chosen not to join that partnership. That would be an interesting point, but we will come back. You and the Trussel Trust were referred to by the deputy convener and he did give a very helpful submission. Having listened to some of the questions and points being made, do you want to make some observations at the moment? I think what Linda said was absolutely right. If you consider the fact that there were only 5,726 men, women and children that utilised Trussel Trust Food Bank in Scotland in 2011-12 and then 14,318 in 2012-2013, it is terrifying that the number has now risen to over 56,000. We are not even at the end of this financial year. We will know what the actual number looks like by the end of this month, but that is an exponential rise in the demand for emergency food relief. I think that there are a number of things that we can take from our statistics that link that to welfare reform. I think that one of the things that I would like to refer to before that is the Scottish Government report that was released in December, which indicated that providers who participated in this study were in agreement that welfare reform, benefit delays, benefit sanctions and falling incomes have been the main factors driving the recent trend of increased demand for food aid. That, for me, is pretty clear. I think that, in addition to that, we are not only seeing welfare reform as an issue, but also the rising cost of living. We have seen in the last three months a 0.7% increase in the Scottish economy, but when you look also at the fact that there have been a 4.3% rise in food costs in between 8 and 11% rise in fuel costs, it's indisputable that people are under more pressure than they ever have been. Obviously, we're not seeing benefits keep pace with the rise in living costs. For us, from our statistics, the indication is that of those 14,318 men, women and children that utilised a Scottish food bank run by the Trussell Trust last year, 15% of those, which was just over 2,000, were because of a benefit change. Now, sanctions come under benefit changes that has since risen to 20% and jumped from third place into second place, which now accounts for 20%, which is 11,200 men, women and children, actually over 11,200. So I think that, for me, is a huge concern. The evidence that we're seeing every single day right across our food bank network is that welfare reforms are inextricably linked to the rising demand for emergency food relief. In addition to that, we also indicated on our submission that 1,565 people had been referred because they were refused a short-term benefit advance. I used to be the manager of the Dundee Food Bank, managed that for seven years, it's now been open for nine, and we saw over 1,000 referrals directly from the Scottish Welfare Fund to our Dundee Food Bank within the first six months of this financial year. Now, we understand that it takes time for a new system that's been devolved to the local authority to work through the teasing issues that come up, but a number of the people that we spoke to at the Dundee Food Bank indicated that they hadn't even been asked about their financial situation. They'd just been directly signposted to their local food bank. That, for me, is a concern because we have no intentions of becoming part of the welfare state. Unfortunately, that indicates a sort of underhand way of trying to weld us into the infrastructure of the welfare state. That, for us, is a no-no. We're not interested in going there. To pick up on Kevin's point about issues of rurality, we operate on a number of extremely rural local authorities. Currently, in 26 of Scotland's 32 local authorities, one of which is the Highlands, which is bigger than the size of Wales, we currently have five projects that operate in the Highlands, and we expect that there will be another three launched in some of the more rural parts. Obviously, we rely on communities to approach us to set up food banks, but, for instance, our South Ayrshire food bank has been open for two years now. It's one food bank, but it has six distribution centres right across the entire local authority, in Trun, Gervyn, Mabel, there's two in Ayr, and also there's one in Presswick. So they ensure that they have a presence in each and every local community if they can, and also they have a rural delivery service that provides to the outlying areas where it's more difficult for people to get to their local job centre or to get to a food bank. So I think there's a number of ways in which we can break down those issues of rurality and remoteness, but I think it's more of an issue up here than it is south of the border. Yeah, certainly in the discussions I've had with you previously, that these practical problems of rurality came in when we were discussing the one in South Lanarkshire, where there are major centres of population but surrounded by quite disparate rural communities and accessing food banks for those people was just practically much more difficult. So there is an appreciation that that's the case. Jo, do you want to say? Yeah, if it's okay, I'll just jump back to you when you were talking about the evidence that we came across about the quote where I've mentioned almost overnight that we experienced that difference. We set up what we call an emergency food programme based on people who'd been made homeless or at risk of being made homeless or were in financial, experienced in financial problems. Which is obviously very different than what we are now. So, yes, we were providing emergency food aid. We saw an increase in that as a result of all the other issues that people have mentioned, which is obviously financial implications. Cost of living rises are not wage rises in reflection of that, but also from the point of view of people having hours caught, all the implications that came along with that. So we had a slight increase, agreeably, from what we anticipated in the beginning. However, that increase had got to around 13 per month before April last year. After April last year, when I say the jump was almost overnight, we saw it within a month. That jump of 13 per month in our records went to 59 and increased. It increased for various reasons, but the main issue that people are presenting to the food bank is welfare and benefit problems. We're now in February, I have the figures for February, about 301 referrals to the food bank in February. The biggest reason is welfare. Sanctions is the biggest impact, because people who have experienced sanctions have to make the decision, as a number of people have said today. They have to make the decision whether to heat or eat, because unfortunately they can't have help for both. So they have to make that decision. We and similar experiences are having referrals from people who can't food as their priority, electricity and heating is not. So we have to put out cold food boxes and that number is increasing. On our referral forms, we ask for what cooking facilities people have and the number that are now coming through. Yes, they have all cooking facilities but they can't use them because they can't afford to put the electricity in the meter. That's the implications that we are experiencing. The other thing is obviously on top of that, we're now experiencing, we have 30% of our referrals come from the Scottish Welfare Fund and that is only, that's just the way that we record it. We don't know the exact figures of the benefit issues around the other referrals but we can estimate that the majority are 90%, we're talking 90% of referrals are through benefit problems. There are other reasons, agreeably. The other issue is the rural locations. We have problems where people find it difficult, the travel issues are very difficult. If people have been sanctioned quite often it's because they're living in an area that they can't, that travel is an issue. Not just actually the money because public transport is very expensive but it comes down to the very fact that again it comes back down to other issues where the services has been dropped, there aren't as many buses available so people can't get in on time for their appointments so they're being sanctioned and having the money taken off them. Whether that's happening once with that individual or ten times with that individual, that individual is having their basic needs taken away from them to keep warm and to eat. If we have to fulfil that need then we will do so. There are a number of implications for us around the rural locations. We're very lucky in the fact that we already go out to a number of rural areas but the time and the day that we're going out to rural areas isn't necessarily when that person needs emergency food. We're actually working on a project with the Systems Advice Bureau. A big part of that project is outreach because local services, again local services in rural areas have been taken away. If somebody has benefit problems they have to ring a call centre that's a million miles from their issue and their problem in their community. So hopefully through the Systems Advice project that we're in partnership with we can help with some of those gaps. Before we move on. Can I just get Jo to clarify the figures that she said? I think that she said that there were 13 referrals in April 2013 and now we're 301 in February 2015. Did I pick that up right? The 13 figure was pre-April 2013. So 13 and now 301. Thank you. I think that shows the darkness of the situation. I had to check the figures when you said them, I thought I'd misheard but I checked my clerks that we had the right figure. Dave and then Caroline again. One of the difficulties with these sessions is how you get everything you want to say in. Just a few quick points if I may. The first can I emphasise that one of the things about any ism is based on ignorance and stereotyping. One of the challenges we've got, while we've got huge support for the public and the corporates coming in behind us on what we're doing on the food front. There's still a tremendous amount of frankly in my view ignorance out there and stereotyping of the people who are using. One of the things that's important there is the use of case studies which a number has presented today because they're very powerful in getting across to people the realities of folk circumstance. Just to emphasise again that those case studies do need to be backed up by independent mere objective evidence. In terms of Aberdeen, the food banks partnership there, I think we've got an impressive partnership with 19 organisations including the local authority, a credit union, a housing association and a range of churches and other voluntary organisations. The reason we established that was a recognition in 2012 that there was an exponential growth of food banks. Please listen carefully what I'm saying just now because I didn't want this to be misunderstood. Food banks in themselves, in our view, are not a very productive or positive activity. In themselves, they create dependency, they erode dignity and if you'll excuse this, they prop up welfare reform in isolation. They need to be linked with other support and services to people and in the food bank partnership in Aberdeen there's a clear statement there of working in partnership with colleagues in the health service and employability and money advice and welfare benefits and so on is critical. So we have a referral system going on that provides other support to people, hopefully to get them with the bit and they dependant on the food bank. Quickly on servicing huge areas because Grampian is big, Aberdeen shares the second biggest authority in Scotland. Fersher UK and Lindsay Boswell, the chief executives here today to observe in the public benches, are they called benches? Anyway, he's at the back. Fersher UK have adopted a hub and spoke arrangement in recognition of the need to get food out to more places, basically. In Grampian, we are going to become Fersher Grampian where Aberdeen will be the hub and then there will be spokes. At the moment we work in Aberdeenshire and what we do there is get the food out through partner organisations. So what I'm doing just now is emphasising the importance of partnership if we're going to be effective in supporting the people. So we get to health visitors and others who are in contact with folk in need. We will send out half a dozen food parcels. They phone us when they're done and we send them out again. But it's the only way in rural areas that you're going to be effective if you've got a range of partners who are working together with you and we want to develop the hub and spoke arrangement. One of the things Kevin asked is there's a couple of food banks having the jointed partnership in Aberdeen. I don't think in this public forum I'm going to say much about that other than reinforcing the message that partnership we're stronger together. One of the issues for all the agencies we're involved with is they're under huge pressure. We're under huge pressure. And that pressure aligned with, if you've got people coming in in desperate need, they're not necessarily at that first meeting responsive to other support. That comes through building a relationship with people. It's good old community work frankly. And one of the things that I do have an issue with and I'd like to raise today is we take a person-centered approach. So we don't have once, twice, three times, ten times. We're interested in the person, their individual circumstance. Where they need food we need to get that to them but we're also aligning that with other support and services. But we need to hey, in my view, a person-centered approach that's based on that person's needs and where they're at in that time in their life. Caroline. Okay. Just to follow on for that, I would agree that the lack of food is never a standalone problem and it's a result of deeper issues. And that's what we need to address. We need to look at these deeper issues, whether it's the benefits, the employment, the bedroom tax or whatever. Fesher exists to cascade that help to organisations we work with. It's not a food bank. It addresses the causes of hunger and not just the symptoms. But with that in mind, we are now providing meals for 4,500 people a day in Scotland alone. And that's a real step increase. We are redistributing in excess of a million pounds of surplus food every year to around 90 projects working in Scotland. And you can see how that cascades. I feel, and this would be the opinion of the four fair shares that operate in Scotland, that we need to start to link the welfare issues with the environmental issues. And without spending ages on that, I go to an AD plan and I see in-date food going into that AD plan. And okay, we're getting energy out of the end of it, but there's people going hungry in this country and that food could be feeding the most vulnerable members of our community. And for that, for me, that is just so wrong. And I just believe that it's right that we don't think of fair share just in context of Aberdeen and Glasgow and Dundee and Edinburgh, but that we look at, just as Joe said, that rural perspective. And we're doing a bit of a pilot where there's a wee project that's just as deserving as some of the big projects we might support in the bigger cities, down in Duns, where they're coming in once a week and picking up stuff. And the way we want to develop that is to support other people around that area and do one delivery to the one place. I think we've got an opportunity. I feel energised by we can reduce the surplus food going to landfill. Fair share have done some research where it looks as if we're only using 1% of the food that is fit for human consumption. So there's a lot more food out there. And what we're doing, I believe right now, is that we're strengthening the voluntary sector in Scotland at a time where people are facing huge cuts in their budget. And there isn't the money there for food and the food is the thing that goes. And last week Christopher Somerville, who is manager of fair share in Edinburgh, had gone to visit a wee project that was supporting people with mental health difficulties. And he went to do what we call an advisory visit. And that's to protect the food that people like Asda and Marks and Spencer's donate, that's surplus, to see that it goes to the right place. So things are stored at the right temperature. We know the route where it's going to end up. And he came away and he wrote me this email that said something like that wee project that started almost 15 years ago has developed so much. But I want to tell you why I get up in the morning. And it was a group of people who were having support because of mental health difficulties. And what they had done with that fair share food is they had started to serve lunch. And there was significant change was that people stuck around longer, but they said goodbye to each other and they talked to each other. And that food was about building community and building care right there at the root of where things were happening. And I think that we have an opportunity to work together, to work together with food right across whether it's food banks or whether it's fair share. We need to look at what resources we've got. We lack storage in a big way. We spend lots of money on storage facilities. In Edinburgh we spend 22K a year and that's just on storage and we've got refrigeration. I think that we've had some joined up thinking, some funding, looking at larger storage, looking at how we work together. We have an opportunity to lead the way in this. We do need that statistics that Dave talks about. We do need the energy around the table. We do need the collaborative work. And it's the end result, as Joe says. It's about that family and Dennis says that receive that parcel. And I see it. We work with asylum seekers, refugees who have very limited access to that sort of support. But I think it does call for us, for investment in the growth, to scale it up, but to be very aware of where the need really is and to monitor that carefully. Thanks. Annabelle and then Dennis. Thank you, convener. And as we could anticipate from all the submissions we have received, there are many, many issues that are being brought to the table, which is very useful for the committee in its work. I wanted to raise particularly the issue of children, but before I do so, the issue of transport, as has been discussed and raised by my colleague Kevin Stewart, and discussed with others, is very important. And the convener made a very good point that it's not just in rural Scotland as typically identified, it's in most of Scotland which has rurality linked to it. And when I was visiting the food back in Dunfermlyn yesterday evening, it was mentioned to me that, for example, somebody had walked in from Blingary to Dunfermlyn, which is some 12 miles. And it's not even just the walking in, which is quite difficult to imagine depending on whether that we've seen, but it's also the walking back with maybe 12 kilograms food. So I think the issue of transport is hugely important, because many of these facilities are, by definition, not going to be on the high street in terms of the space needed and so forth. And one issue we discussed last night was discussions that they're having. I'm not very sure where these discussions have got to with Five Council to see if, at least as far as the Trussell Trust, this was a Trussell Trust food bank, as concerned where there's the clear red distinctive voucher, whether that voucher can be produced on a bus or other form of public transport for that purpose to get to the food bank and back. I think we have to look at very practical issues to help people in what is already a very difficult situation for them, but dealing with children, I mean, obviously we've been trying to get to the bottom of how many people are affected. We've got the figures for the Trussell Trust up to, I think, the 24th of February, as far as their involvement is concerned with some 56,000 people, and that doesn't even take us to the end of this financial year. In 2014 we have all the other organisations and, I guess, I don't know if you were to add up just trying to think in terms of the information we have, we could be looking at some 90,000 to 100,000 people in Scotland. I don't think that's an unreasonable, unrealistic figure, rather affected. One of my key concerns is how many children are affected within that, and do we have any idea and perhaps that can be a point of discussion. With respect to that, I would just mention a couple of observations when I was at the food bank last night, the person of the volunteer I was speaking to mentioned, as I'm sure would be the case across Scotland, the huge generosity of people across Scotland in donating. He mentioned an example of two youngsters who had given up their comic allowance to contribute to the family's donation to the food bank. I also met two young schoolgirls last night who were a teenager at the Duke of Edinburgh award contenders, and this was part of their volunteering. They made the point that, whilst they found it incredibly useful for them to have this experience in terms of handing over food that was received with such welcome by people, they also felt importantly, as youngsters, that they were learning hugely about society, hugely, because this was making such a big impact on their lives. In general, this is impacting on children who are affected by the fact that their families need to go to the food banks. It's also affecting other children, and I think it's a key aspect of the debate, and I just wonder what information all of you experts have on the ground. Dennis, and then Ken. It's fragmented. Really. I can only speak for East Kilbride. We'll go anywhere. We'll take food parcels anywhere. I've sent stuff to Oving. We always contract, it takes up free. I've travelled to people's. I've travelled to Alexandra. I've always went willing, but I've always came back glad that I went when you get there, and people are breaking their heart because you've brought in a bag of messages to them, and maybe a couple of toys for their kids. Now, East Kilbride. We're never going to get the true figures. The true figures cannae come because government departments misuse the whole thing. Fact. How do you want to accept the way you don't want to accept the fact? I get a phone call. I walk with two sticks. Sometimes I don't always get out. So I get a phone call and it's always out of order. Dennis, can you help me with a bag of messages? I'm very sorry. I cannae manage it now. Friday. But I could maybe manage something if you're half past four. Oh, we stopped early on the Friday. We don't work Saturday and Sunday. I'm busy Monday and Tuesday. So what about Wednesday? What's this emergency? That family's now sitting to Wednesday when there's something to eat. Now, the answer to that one is, oh, well, we'll just need to use our own budget. If they use their own budget properly, and when the budget runs out, we'll manage to get a true figure, the amount of people that's really struggling. I get up for other organisations, and it's the same thing. Oh, we'll need to use our own budget. I went to a social worker department and said to them, right, how much food parcels do you need for Christmas? Because they said, oh, no, this doesn't need happening in a couple of days. Yeah, you give me an idea. Oh, we're not using them this year. Oh, that's smashing. You don't get any hungry. No, the staff's been making a mess of the room, so we don't want to store it. East Kilbride fact. We saw this. Well, that's the food parcels. We've not got any of them in two weeks. They're getting flung out. The Disney want to take their responsibility, their own property. We've got Lindsay House. It's a 10-minute walk for a civic centre. Andy, it's homeless. Must appear in South Lanarkshire. Must appear at Lindsay House. Why can't you set something up in a room in Lindsay House in a Lindsay House in a room as big as that area, lying empty? We're in a position to provide the food. It's a lot easier if somebody walked 10 minutes with two kids than it is to walk four miles, with two quids and other things. Well, no, we're like not. There's certain people who don't want that in here. We're not allowed to store food in here. The one for your arrogant. This food could be cross-contaminated or recalled. Well, if it's recalled food, it's in every television programme, every newspaper and every radio programme. And centuries would be very interesting to see how you get cross-contaminated to be a packet of rice in a tin of beans. So excuses. I've been doing this for 1992. This isn't new. This isn't new. This is just grown, exploding. We started off with homeless people. My wife's sitting in the back there. She's been going to meetings for 1993 and I hope this meeting sincerely brings something about. Now, cos the only thing it changes in these meetings that we go to is the date. The last one I went to, I came home and I said, what do you think they said to me, Cathy? What do you think they were saying? And she told me word for word what we said. The only difference is, when maybe we were in the top of it by 2016, we all sat and we banged the figures a bit. It's people no important anyway. It's your constituents no important. Can you give us a parcel for a baby? It's going to be born on Tuesday. And then we'll be these are late. She's not entitled to any benefits. What's the right of that child? Doesn't he want to have a dam with the mother's done? Surely we're social work departments and we're people in power should be looking at the benefit of that child. But that child had to get some day to come to your food bank to see if they can get clothes. 2014. This is the real reality of this whole thing. Figures, figures, figures. What's the real figure in the people's committees suicide? Through benefit cuts. Nobody able to make men's eat. People come to us and they're terrified. They don't want to know their circumstances. They've already sat in a social work department, played their heart out. Then if they walk four miles to me and they feel they've got to sit doing tell me again all their problems. Well we've got to be signing the door. It says no smile no entry. That's not the need. Come in and we smile on their face and they get their parcel. And I'm not there to judge them. I have a breakfast, a lunch, a evening meal on a cup of tea before I go to my bed. That's some power when I can't decide when somebody's going to eat and if they're going to eat. And that's what we're doing here today. We're sitting here making decisions. If somebody's going to eat, I've got no going to eat. Who isn't we're going to eat to make sure that people have no go at debt? I was brought up with parents that brought me up to believe that those that can should do for those that can't. And we shouldn't have lost that in this society. The power to be. It's time we woke up to reality. We don't need to have meetings to decide as the benefit cuts get a rise to do with food banks. My seven year old grandson's got auspices and he could tell you, he could tell you it is. Let's be truthful. Let's be truthful about the whole situation. The situation is, people are getting penalised for being poor, for no having, for no having the ability to do, no having a job with a food bank. How would you feel if we made a decision here today that every MP had to get the electricity and the gas cut off, the fridges and the freezers emptied and sent to work for four months and get a grub off a food bank? How do you think you'd feel about that? See, that was part of the cause. You had today to be an MP. You had made me realise what it means, what the policies really mean to people. No financially. And they are. And they are. People come here and they're broken. Do you know when I stay still, somebody is breaking their heart, because they can't eat their eggs? This is about. I speak. Building a society that is worthwhile. No divine people. Because they can't work, does they make them a lesser person? But this government's got everybody thinking people have their own benefits as a thief, a liar, a cheat and a layabout. That's the furthest thing for the truth. Cysd rydyn ni'n b jedi, rydyn ni'n g�oerio meddwl. Rydyn ni'n gofynion, rydyn ni'n meddwl. Ond rydyn ni wedi mewn cyffredinol. Rydyn ni'n gwneud iawn. Wrth gydalsgai'r bobl yn gwneud falch. Rydyn ni'n gobl yn gwneud. Rydyn ni'n gwneud hoed halid. Order i ddod yn ei draf groomfyrd ar hyn. Felly ei wneud o'r iawn i'r maher. Y maher o'r iawn Oni wedi ei ddechrau i'w blaen o'r artennill Ryn ni'n meddwl i'n cael ei wneud dechrau Felly mae'r wneud o'i chyn nhw i'n gwneud Felly mae gennig 21 eich society A mae'r wneud o ran 1930 Dleiwch Felly mae'n bwysig i wirio'r holl eich cyfrifio Mae'r bwysig i'r holl eich cyfrifio Felly mae'r wneud o'r holl eich cyfrifio Fel ydych chi fyddechrau. Fel ydych chi'n hyn i'ch godusio? Fel ydych chi'n fyddechrau. Wel y dyma'r fforddau'r amgynnu arfer yn ystod butywiadau yn amliad sy'n dysgu eu gwirionedd yma. Mae'n yn dangos chi'n gwirionedd ac mae'n fforddau yma a'r meddwl ei fawr i'r gwirionedd yn fag ar y dddangos Felly, y cuniriaeth yma dw i fod yn dewyn, ac Ion Ger yw i'w Rimgrith Fyffordd yn bligach yn hwyl, ond rydyn ni'n gweithio'r bwysig яwr a'r bwysig, os yw flennid yn ei gweld y pethau, yn cymdeithasol i gyd yn gwneud yn y cynnangor lle feddwl. Ond hefyd, mae'r ffoedbaeth yn ddiogel tu chi fod yn gweithredu'r bwysig i'w flennid yn gweithredu yn gweithredu am gyda'r bwysig i'w w Strategiaeth, ac yr hwn yn gweithredu i gael usbeth maen nhw ymwneud yn trofnus i chi os yw'r tîm, er mwyn nhw i'w gilyn. amaeth mawr ar y gadegrifennu yfliwyr ffuganeu wedi'i gwélwyr yn fawr, ond rydw i'w gofio, oherwydd ar y parlynydd Cymru, genny'n gwz posts cyfnodd Cymru, mae'r gwahio'r ffuganeu yw'r gweithfyrdd Cymru, oherwydd mae'r gwahio yw gwblwyr, mae'n adiwyr ar gael. Oni'n thrall pwynt yn sicr ddim yn wref. when you have people relying, going to food banks for food, when they can actually get money, which am sure would be far more dignified for them, making their own choices? Is there more that we can do that will actually help you get to the underlying causes, that will actually help address dependency? Mae'r cwmpu gen i'w dalwch i'w chyflwstanth i'w gwmpech o Chlopol. Chwilwst roi mynd i'w ddechrau Allogol yn tirio dgnw PO, ond mae'n defnyddio'r bwysig i'w cwmpu. Felly mae'n cyfarlethau i chi weld maen nhw i gweithio i'w prif oedd Dgrifetir Llyfr yn cael ei maelio ar y cwmpu hyn ac iğrwnt yn gallu chyflwstanth i chi na dda, ond gynnal i'w ffyrdd rwy'n rwy'n ei gweithio i wneud o'r rhyw dechrau Beth yna'r ddaf yn gwybod nhw y gallu eu cyfrifoedd? Mae'n gwybod nhw'n nhw'n nhw'n nhw ar gael y gydolion, a'i gwybod ddifuig ar y cyfrifoedd o'r ystafell yn gwybod ym Mhwy oedd ym Mhwy yn Y Llywodraeth. Ond mae'n rhaid i'n cael ei gwybod yn ein hunain yn ymgyrchynedd. Felly mae'n gwybod yn cael ei gwybod yn ei gwybod yn gwybod yr ymgyrchynedd gyda'r cyfrifoedd o'r Ymgyrchynedd o'r Ymgyrchynedd gyda'r cyfrifoedd. Ieolwadur o beth oedden nhw ar y brwyll yn y byw i fod yn ai'r trwywydig. Wrth g spillol, oes yn ymgwrdd defnyddio i ddraethu ddelchaf a'r ddeuweith yng nghymru i ddod o unrhyw yng nghymru a'r ddeuweith dim i ddod o'r ddatercolau. I looked at 52 Red Cross and Red Crescent societies in Europe who were making responses to the economic situation in Europe. I think that there are some themes there that echo in Scotland, particularly the increasing number of new poor and the impact of food insecurity on people who go beyond that immediate need, meeting those immediate needs, but the actual impact of food insecurity on people's mental wellbeing on their capacity to actually begin to address and to make some of those changes. I think we are, and it's helpful being here today, and we welcome the opportunity to hear what's happening, and consider whether where we could best place ourselves, as opposed to strategically helping, and get involved with fair share last year in terms of mobilising our volunteers to support some of their food drives. I think that a number of people have echoed quite powerfully that humanitarian response that people in Scotland will make to people in need, but I think that I would echo the concerns that Caroline and Dave talked about in terms of food banks present an immediate response. If we don't meet people's basic needs, we're not going to be able to help them to do other things, but the need for us to look at that resilience and how we offer longer-term solutions at a societal level, but also at an individual level, and we're very interested in developing that resilience-based approach and how we can actually help people to build on that. I think that there is a concern that people have echoed around this room that we end up building food banks in as part of the welfare response, rather than recognising them as a crisis response to a crisis that needs, as you said, Ken, to find different solutions. I think that we would see ourselves as being part of that solution. I think that what the longer-term response needs to be in terms of building on that resilience is something that we could develop a bit more of a response across the country to. Linda? Just to follow on from some of the things that have been said in the last week, while I too have a concern, as Marie has just emphasised again, that we do end up just taking food banks as a norm when it becomes part of the system, and if you'll excuse my saying it, guys, I hope that you're all campaigning to do yourselves out of jobs. Because that's what's really important, that has got to be the bigger picture that we hang on to. But there's always going to be people that need a hand up for whatever reasons, just like I don't believe you can ever completely eradicate homelessness. You can maybe just make it temporary, but you'll never eradicate it. You will never eradicate people who every now and then hit hard times, and that's where people like Dennis and Cathy come in who've been doing this for years. You know, for the exceptions that are now becoming the norm. But talking about the joined up stuff, yes, we should be joining up and saying that we have to help people with other things, but that shouldn't be predicated on them being hungry. That's what's the big immoral thing for me. But also, what Dennis said, and you know, Dennis made some claims there about lack of working together in South Lanarkshire, and I'm sure South Lanarkshire council would have their own response to that, Dennis, for whatever reasons. But there certainly does seem to be an issue there about, to paraphrase Dennis, others not quite doing their job, whether it is in fact spending their budgets or working together. And maybe it's not deliberate, this has really hit people, this welfare reform. So it maybe is that the process, as Dave mentioned earlier, hasn't quite caught up with the policy. Ken was saying about the welfare fund, maybe more can be done under that, and there was low take up, though I understand it is getting better, and the money can be carried over, and I hope that is better managed. But I think there may well, convener, be a case for following up this meeting with taking some evidence from those who are officially involved in that process, to see how they make decisions, what they do. It's not just about how the people here and folk like them and all the voluntary groups relate to their local authorities and social work, DWP and others. It's about how those people relate to what's happening directly as policy that they've then got to do the process for. So I think it would be another part of this equation would be to take evidence from people like that, to find out how they see the agencies around this table just now, how they work with it. And again, it's a real balance about, I don't want to see this committee in the business of saying we're going to make these awful welfare reforms work better and try and solve the consciences of some of those that are sitting in Westminster. I don't want to be doing that at all. I want a very, very strong message to go from here, but I think the understanding, the bigger picture by seeing the other side of that coin is important as well. No, I totally agree with you, Linda. We have in our work programme to look at the Scottish welfare fund. I don't think we had specifically set up anything with the DWP, but we do that periodically and we can if we need to speak to the DWP again and if we have to get the local authorities to come and speak to us about how they're working in relation to this, then that's something that we can factor in, because this is an issue that we are going to keep on top of. Dennis has just passed me away. He's absolutely right. What should also be part of that is we should never forget that for the vast majority of people, all they want is to be able to work for a decent wage that takes away their absolute need to be turning up at food banks, etc. That should also be part of that bigger picture. Absolutely. That was the point that I made when Caroline mentioned initially when some of the people that she was referring to are people who are in work. It's not just about unemployed people or people who can't access an income. It's people who are on low incomes and we need to take all of that. Any consideration, Caroline? My focus at Syranian has certainly been on not a handout but a hand up and trying to take people on that journey through the fair share project and other social enterprises we're running an enterprise to employment project which has taken people on the journey who are not even on the employability pipeline to secure in a job. For some people that takes quite a long time and we've got to see that that job is worthwhile for them to be able to support themselves. So there's something around that we'd agree totally with Mary there in us looking at the big picture and looking at what we do in a wider context. And certainly fair share would be working towards as not being in existence. But when we still see all this food go to landfill we do need to link that welfare reform with environmental, with feeding people that are going without. But I think there's also something around we work with a food bank in North Edinburgh who actually do distribute under very stringent conditions fresh food, fresh fruit and vegetables as well as that pack with tins. And to me that's about just picking up what Dennis said that's about somebody's dignity. It's about not having a constant tin of something. It's about having a bit of broccoli or some potatoes on their plate. It's about children getting fruit. We also run cooking classes and I was brought up in a generation and this is admitting my age where you had cooking classes at school. It was part of your education. And people who are coming out of prison or people that have come out of care who don't know how to make a pot of soup. And it is about for me it's about cooking that soup. It's about the skills of learning to do it. It's about the building of confidence and the sharing of that meal. And for some people, Annabelle talked about children quite recently last summer through fair share. We had a strawberry glut. It was fabulous. She walked in at that depot. It's a beautiful smell of strawberries. And there was a wee lass came with her dad to pick up mum from the cooking class. She had never tasted a strawberry. She was aged four. And the big change to that family that they evidenced in the way that we asked people to sort of chat to us to begin with about what they eat and what they buy and what they eat and what they cook and what they buy at the end of it was that they now bought some fresh fruit. And okay, it was minimum in terms of what they could afford but we taught them about budgeting and shopping. And that was added value. And that's where we all want there to be no food banks, there to be no fair share. But we have to say that there are people that are hungry, there is food going to waste. And that's where our energy needs to go working together in partnership. Dave and then Jamie and Kevin really are now up against the clock. I think when Kevin was saying what else is there to be done, one of my bugbears for many, many years is the rhetoric of partnership needs to become the reality that despite rampant rhetoric so many agencies and organisations and this being with the public sector only but also the voluntary sector sit in their own silos and I think there's a huge job to be done to get across to us all that actually working together makes us all stronger. You've got to give there but you also get back. And until we get that reality happening I think we've got a problem. More importantly people in poverty have got a problem. One of the things, our working with the local authority in Aberdeen City and in Aberdeenshire actually is very good and one of the things I would highlight there is the welfare reform grants partly people don't know about them anecdotally we would be aware of that but also we've got to remember a lot of folk who are possibly entitled then honestly haven't had necessarily the best relationship with the public authorities throughout their lives and therefore there's a whole suspicion there that if they make contact what might be the implications of that. But one of the things we've done in Aberdeen and I don't know if it's unique but we've now using the accord card in Aberdeen City we've got tells in our food bank two of our food banks, instant neighbour and ourselves and people going in for a welfare reform grant can get loaded on nature's money to go to Asda or one of the supermarkets but they can actually come to the food bank with that money loaded on and they come to us and get their produce we get the return for that grant people go away way more than they would get from other retailers but it's a very good win-win-win the local authority, the beneficiary and ourselves so I think there's lots of room for partnership development but there needs to be some incentivisation to do that the final thing to mention of course is investment Carlan mentioned quite weird desperate just having to walk in refrigeration and I'm scrabbling around trying to find the money to get that walk in refrigeration so we can maximise the food that's available to get out to the people so I was money needed Jamie and Kevin and then I'm going to finish off by coming back to you Thank you convener Dennis is a very passionate contribution and the thing that struck me above all was the requirement for us here at Pant to try and come up with practical solutions in that vein I would like to echo Linda's I think we need to take a little bit more evidence to try and think about this further and we'll discuss that later so I won't linger on that one thing I just wanted to mention not asking this out for comment because I think the evidence is there in the written form it's not something that's particularly considered in relation to this issue of food banks but in community food initiatives east there's a reference to the Zero Waste Scotland Act and the costs on food banks for the disposal of food that's a concern for the minute the flip side of that in the contribution from fair share was the concern that food that could otherwise be utilised by food banks in cannot refer to this being diverted to other usage I think that's something we need to have a think about it's not something that occurred to me as an obvious cause for concern but one thing and I know you're asking for this to be brief so I'll keep it brief just to probably only requires a yes or no answer from folk around the table but we saw in the Sunday Herald on the Scotland Sunday Cat Member which on the weekend some GP saying that they are being asked to provide ferals to food banks and they're not very happy to do this I think that's our comment in the paper that this isn't particularly required so just going around the tables just you know yes or no is this something that your organisation requires no it might be interesting to take it for the evidence where this has come from okay Kevin thank you convener and I would agree with the comments that Linda and Jamie have made about further evidence one of the things which has concerned me about today is somebody said earlier we need to scale this up when in reality I would like to see all of this being scaled down but unfortunately while we have the situation that we have with the UK Government the likelihood is that we will have to continue to scale it up I grew up being quite young I suppose I would have been I would have been put in a family of working poor folk when I was pretty young I was never hungry I've never been hungry how bad that actually is and we have a situation where there is such a constant change in the benefit system at this moment in time that people kind of keep up with it and folk are actually losing hope and one of the things which I think we need to do is to create a system where we actually restore hope so that folk can actually get on with their lives and live with an amount of respect and I'd like to thank everybody around this table for their efforts but you know sometimes things are said and we're doing things but not actually thinking about the practicalities Caroline talked about cooking classes and that's absolutely fantastic teaching folk how to cook properly but if the practicality practicality is that folk kind of go home and switch on their cooker because they can afford to switch on their cooker you know again we're giving false hope if you like convener I think we could all go on about this today for a long while and this session is probably being far too short I think we need further evidence and for the record I'd like to thank those folks around the table for the efforts that they've put in thus far I'll give the final word to you if you've listened to what's been said do you want to make some final comments or observations or suggestions Thank you very much I just want to pick up on a few points probably a handful of points that I just want to respond to the first was Annabelle's comments about children obviously we've given all evidence to indicate the amount of children that have utilised food banks since we started operating I think the statistic we used and the the submission that we made was I think about 17,000 children of the 56,000 that had been referred to a Scottish food bank this financial year that for me is a concern as a father in addition to that I wanted to pick up on Ken's couple of comments and questions that Ken had made I want to actually I think we've been unashamed to commend the Scottish Government for the work that it has done already in publishing the report in December on food aid provision in Scotland and also the debate that Stuart McMillan recently put forward in the Scottish Parliament so I think that for us is progress because there's now a conversation happening and that conversation leads to creative solutions then that's something that I would be pleased to see I think more than anything I think it's about educating ourselves to the extent to which this issue exists and so I think that for me is a big issue the one thing I would want to strongly recommend to all elected officials around the table would be that you not only go to food banks but you engage with the people who are using the services it's very easy to speak to me no one cares what you and Gurhus to say no one cares what John Riley at Dunfermwyn Food Bank has to say I really care about the people that are using our services and I think if we're engaging with the people that are using our services then that again will yield creative solutions I also want to pick up on Linda's point Collette Douglas home actually wrote an article this week in The Herald and our opening paragraph was there is one man in Scotland whose ambition is to be unemployed his name is you and Gur so I would concur with your point that we do ultimately want to see a society where we are queuing up at the job centre let's be honest that that wasn't exactly how I said it but she made the point and I think that's right and I think in relation to points that have been made regarding our assimilation with the welfare state also made my point clear a week past Sunday in The Sunday Herald where I said we have to be absolutely aware that that we are not that if we are not careful we could be moulded into the infrastructure of the welfare state and that is just not our intention for us by working with churches and ultimately the communities we create sustainable food banks that are not government or state reliant it is a crucial thing to avoid ever being assimilated with the welfare state that is not an acceptable policy shift that we want to see and despite the fact that number of approaches have been made from local authorities to our food banks given them every indication that we would not be supportive of them entering into service level agreements or being remunerated for the amount of food that they distribute we would prefer to be in a situation where we're resourced by the community for the community I think that was the main points the other thing I think that Dennis said which I think is absolutely crucial is we need to remember that there are people at the heart of this human dignity is really the key issue here I'm speaking not as someone who provides food banks to other people I'm speaking to someone who's used a food bank so I know how it feels I know the shame embarrassment and feelings of failure that you feel when you go and utilise a food bank because you don't have enough money in your bank account to buy toilet roll I know what it's like you know trying to share this situation really my wife and I were in three years ago was one where you know actually trying to procure money to run a food bank was not as easy because it's a big issue now and we have support and connect grant applications and things like that but that didn't exist three four years ago and we were in a situation where our bank balance run very low fortunately done these in a very sustainable position now but at that time we had two big batches of funding that were due to come through and because they hadn't come through on time my wife and I were in a position where we had to apply for council tax benefit and housing benefit because my income had been cut by two thirds so I know how it feels but I also know the love, grace and mercy and compassion that resides on the other side of the threshold of that door I know the way that we interact with people I know the way that we try to ensure that people are getting that support and I think a wee bit of research that we did in our Dundee food bank was quite telling between November 2012 and March 2013 when we discovered that two thousand and twenty two men, women and children had used the food bank within that five month period and the interesting thing was only 33 of those two thousand and twenty two men, women and children used the food bank on four or more occasions for a situation that had not been resolved in the short term so I think that's a key thing is that we work with people to support them towards sustainable living and ultimately to try and address some of the issues that they may be facing so I hope that that gives quite a comprehensive overview to some of the points that were raised and thank you for giving me the opportunity to offer some closing remarks no problem at all and thanks again to everyone for coming today informing us, advising us and again giving us a better understanding of just where things are at the moment how bad things are we have as a committee been going out as much as possible to try and get as clear a picture as we can we've visited local authorities we've visited food banks we've been to the DWP centres we've done as much information gathering as we can and it just keeps adding and adding we've heard some horrendous individual circumstances from people who've informed us we've heard collective information which again has been alarming and concerning things that stick with me hearing one local authority tell me that they know of groups of people who are waiting at the back of supermarkets for food to be thrown out so they can go into the bin and try and find food we've heard of the stories of people walking miles we've heard the stories of mothers and fathers going without food in order to keep their children fed and as Dennis kept reminding us this is 2014 and we should not be hearing those stories but we are so we'll continue to listen to people like yourself Dennis we will collect information as best we can and we'll get it from wherever we can and we'll try and inform Government as best we can as to how we take these issues forward and because the question kept growing up we have local authority officials coming in front of us on 18 March to discuss the Scottish welfare fund so we'll obviously be taking forward some of the issues that we've raised here today with them directly as I said if needs be we'll get the DWP back in again we'll speak to whoever we need to speak to and that was the reason for this discussion this morning so again thank you to all of our witnesses for the contributions that we've made I certainly feel better informed I don't feel better about having had to hear what I had to hear but that's the situation that we're in at the moment and we will do what we can as a committee to try and make sure that what you brought to us this morning is addressed but thanks very much again to you all and I'll suspend the meeting for a few minutes to allow us to change over to our witnesses up the meeting again we're still on our agenda item 2 but it's the second panel that we have in front of us and it's a we're again looking at the food banks and whether there are possible links to the UK Government's welfare reforms and our second panel is in front of us and I'd like to welcome Dr Philip Sosenko who's a research associate and Dr Nicolette Livingstone who's a teaching fellow and research associate at the University do you want to make a short introductory comment tell us a bit about your work and then we'll open up to questions and further discussion, that's okay? Certainly, thank you very much for inviting us along today and giving us the opportunity to report to you on what our key findings were from our Scottish Government Commission to report the overview of the survey in Scotland really it was interesting to be here for the round table discussion because a lot of what has been expressed there has really been complementary and reinforcing to what we have found and what our research brought out in terms of food provision in Scotland so we conducted our research in September of last year and we were commissioned to do an overview so a scoping study of food provision across Scotland in that respect we had three objectives to consider so identifying the sort of providers that exist across certain areas in Scotland what's the scale of provision how do these providers monitor if anything do the monitor at all those people who are using their services where does the Truswell Trust fit within this provision across Scotland and how does their data reflect general trends that other food aid providers have experienced and the third thing that we were requested to investigate was to make recommendations as to whether they can effectively monitor supply and demand of food aid and going into the future is it possible to make links between welfare reform and food aid provision or the increases in food aid that we've seen over the last couple of years so in that respect we identified eight areas for investigation so we concentrated on everything across the spectrum from urban to rural so at eight case study locations Glasgow City, Dundee, Inverness Fort William, Stirling Falkirk and then Angus which included Carmure and Forfer so everything from the very rural to the very urban what we did whenever we identified our food aid providers was to contact them initially by email make initial contact and then we conducted semi-structured telephone interviews at a pre-arrange time so really we've spoken to people who have been involved in the management and the provision of food rather than the service users themselves so I'm going to reflect on some of the key findings I'm going to then pass you over to Philip who's going to discuss a little bit more about the welfare reform and the Scottish Welfare Fund but generally across the board there was a notable trend in terms of what we were getting from our food aid providers so a general consistent and exponential increase over the last couple of years as Eungar mentioned earlier the key things that were influencing those that were using and accessing the food banks was benefit sanctions benefit delays welfare reform especially including the benefit or the bedroom tax and also this sort of disconnect between the living wage and the changes in rail incomes or the lack of changes in rail incomes but the increase in cost and everything else including food so these were our key findings Glasgow in terms of the Trust of Trust representation they were seen to represent about 20% of the food aid provision in Glasgow City so there's about 35 providers in Glasgow there's some overlap between those that provide food parcels some providers do a variety of both like the Salvation Army for instance and then generally speaking in all the other locations Trust of Trust as a food bank provider were the dominant source of food banks and food aid across Scotland in our chosen locations so obviously we've looked at eight particular regions but it is very difficult to make a sort of Scottish wide comment but the general trend is that the numbers of people needing access to food is consistently increasing so all providers have experienced increase in demand generally speaking those supply does not seem to be an issue there were some links made to this element of corporate social responsibility a lot of supermarkets getting involved and surplus food redistribution which was seen as a very positive thing by those people who were providing the food aid and the parcels I suppose there's a question of balance between whether or not the growth in food banks is encouraging more people to use the food banks and getting supermarkets involved in providing the food and does that actively encourage people to use the food banks I think that the food banks are addressing a need rather than creating a need and that they are a symptom of a wider cause and that if there was no need for them then we wouldn't have them at all really generally speaking logistical issues I know that they were brought up in the earlier session not just in rural areas but also issues regarding distribution within cities too we had anecdotal evidence of people who were walking nine miles in order to get to a food bank to collect food parcels where there was no food left and having to walk nine miles back there in Dundee they've opened additional distribution services so they've now got their main central food bank in Dundee and three additional distribution points so it is about trying to make the food banks more accessible to the people who need the food in rural areas some of the food bank managers that we spoke to commented on certain charities or local businesses giving them access to vans so that that can help their distribution especially in Angus Caramure food bank and Forfer they cover an area of I think 850 square miles there was some commentary that a lot of the people in the more rural areas don't have the awareness or the knowledge of how to access food from a food bank or that food banks are there to support them one interview particularly mentioned that elderly people are very hidden in their area because they're not aware that they have access to food from food banks when they need it they are a symptom of a wider cause as I said and there is a stigma associated to food banks there are differently until coming to use food banks than there are to use the more informal super kitchen types across the board the people that are coming to access food from food banks and get food parcels for their short term three day period typically are housed and do you have access to facilities that will enable them to cook the food that they get the soup kitchens typically have got a slightly different sort of clientele so other vulnerable people in society who are maybe experiencing different types of crisis such as homelessness in some of the more rural areas however it was noted that there was a crossover and an overlap between the people who were accessing both the more informal services for hot food and the like such as soup kitchens and people accessing the food banks as well I think that I will hand over to Philip at this point I just wanted to make three points linked to the round table discussion last autumn I interviewed a policy manager from one of the largest fed sector support organisations in Scotland and she said that food banks are now part of the infrastructure for dealing with crisis and I think this captures the situation very well however I wanted to point out that we shouldn't forget that as people mentioned before many Scots do not have access to food banks because they live too far away from them and also if they happen to live in the area which is served by a trust trust food bank they can only receive emergency crisis help which takes them effectively for nine days which is three food parcels and this is not criticism of trust trust this is a factual statement you've got three you can get three food parcels last few for three days now my point is is that there are there are high numbers of people who have to go without means of support for longer periods for longer than nine days and I just wanted to quote some statistics in eight months to June 2013 there were 48,000 JSA Climans in Scotland sanctioned for four weeks and there were 5300 JSA Climans sanctioned for three months now if you are sanctioned for three months and you can get food emergency food for nine days how are you going to survive the remaining time so I think and as I said this is not my criticism of trust trust there is a reason why they do things this way but what I wanted to say is there is a high number of people out there who can only use food parcels for a short period of time so and also in relation to that sanctioned JSA Climans are not eligible for crisis grants from the Scottish welfare fund they cannot they cannot apply well they cannot apply for a crisis grant and I've had a conversation about this with colleagues from the welfare division of the Scottish government and they said that there are legal limitations as to what how they set eligibility for crisis grant because they legally they are not meant to to subvert what the DWP is doing and if crisis grants were if people who have been sanctioned were eligible for crisis grants that would undermine the policy of the DWP so I'm not a constitutional lawyer I don't know the ins and outs of it but there is a legal issue here with broadening the eligibility for crisis grants to include sanctioned people so that's the first point that I wanted to make the second point I wanted to engage with what Lord Freud said in July last year about the link between the rising demand for food parcels and the welfare reform he said that was July last year the provision of food bank support has grown from provision to 70,000 individuals two years ago to 347,000 all that predates the reforms now I would say that there is a welfare reform was not the main or an obvious factor fueling demand for food aid prior to April 2013 however there is enough evidence to say that from April 2013 it's become a major factor fueling demand for food aid however Lord Freud's statement I believe is factually incorrect the changes to the welfare system started before April 2013 yes the majority or the harshest changes happened in April last year but prior to that what happened was that JSA sanctions got tougher in October 2012 that's five months before April 2013 and also the absolute number of JSA sanctions was rising a lot already from about 2009 in October 2008 there were 3,250 JSA sanctions in Scotland in October 2010 two years later there were 8,500 that's a jump from in absolute numbers from 3,250 people sanctioned to 8,500 people sanctioned and I believe that that's what fueled the rise of the increase in demand for food aid in Scotland figures for October 2012 were 6,240 so a slight drop but still it's twice as many as JSA claimants sanctioned as in 2007-08 so that's one thing is that there were already more people's JSA claimants sanctioned in Scotland in 2010-11-12 but also and sanctions got tougher in October 2012 which predates April 2013 but also in 2011 the coalition government introduced new local housing allowance caps and changed the way local housing allowance is calculated and that's for private sector tenants who rely on local housing allowance that's that's diminished their budgets so that's again that predates April 2011 also in April 2012 changes were made to the eligibility for working tax credits so couples with children since April 2012 had to work at least 24 hours a week to be eligible for working tax credits whereas prior to that it was 16 hours per week so there is a cohort of families in Scotland whose budgets where budgets deteriorated before April 2013 so I'm saying all that because all that predates the reforms and to me that's factually not correct it's just that the harshest changes in the benefit system to the welfare system happened in April 2013 and so I would say prior to April 2013 the main reasons for rising demand for food aid was poor administration of the benefit system so benefit delays that predates the welfare reform and also rising food energy prices that squeezed families households already you know in 2009, 10, 11 however it is clear to me that after April 2013 the welfare reform is one of the key factors fueling the rising demand for food aid and partically the bedroom tax the benefit operating the fact that benefits were operated by 1% rather than with the inflation the reassessments of people on DLA the benefit cap and south of the border localisation of council tax benefit as well and I think the strongest evidence for there being the sling is that demand for food aid grew at a faster rate after April 2013 before April 2013 and that's what trust figures show that when the reform hit in April 2013 from that point the demand for food aid has grown faster than before so that's the second point I wanted to make and the last point is regarding further evidence a few people around the table called for more collecting more evidence or going beyond anecdotal evidence about the impact of welfare reform on the demand for food aid well as a social researcher I would say that data collected by the trust trust regarding referrals why people get referred this data is both robust and reliable it's not anecdotal at all obviously other food banks were talking about their what their clients tell them and that's maybe that's not systematic and it's closer to anecdotal but statistics collected by the trust is robust and reliable and I don't see a reason why it shouldn't be relied on and to be honest I don't think there is there is much need for further evidence I think this statistics can be relied on in the future it's a huge data set it's not thin and it's systematically collected data in a consistent manner I don't have issues with the quality of it social researcher also in our study we found that it would be difficult to collect any additional evidence on the link between welfare reform and the growing demand for food aid mainly because food parcel providers and soup kitchens do not want to over burden themselves with collecting information case records and basically they would only collect information that is relevant to their operations and this kind of data would not be relevant to their operations so there would need to be some strong incentive they would need to be strongly incentivised to carry out additional data collection and there are several issues with that that's really helpful thanks very much for that I just wanted to round off a final thought but also just building on what Philip said about additional providers like the soup kitchens and the drop-in centres and the like was in collecting data they felt that it would overstep boundaries with their clientele that the people who were coming to access the food aid from them would actually potentially become deterred by not coming by having to give this information and it may actually dissuade them from continuing to use the services there's also a difference between the users of food aid such as soup kitchens and other food banks not trusll trust affiliated they were seen as being more informal and unconditional in terms of how they give and distribute food aid whereas obviously the trusll trust has got conditions attached to it and you can only get three food parcels within a six-month period but there are food aid providers out there who do provide food on a regular sometimes weekly basis to the same clients over and over again something else just a very brief final point that is sort of reflective of the additional research that Philip and I have carried out since we've done this report and it's reflective of the situation in the US and Canada and I'm not sure if any of you are aware of how they use food banks in these countries and really they emerged since the late 70s early 80s and they have become an extension of the welfare state they are a social safety net they've become normalised and they are embedded in society they're entrenched and at the minute it's quite interesting to note that there are volunteers in Canada at the minute through this organisation called the Freedom 90 Charter and they've been working with food banks and volunteering for food banks for 20 odd years and they are now working to make food banks obsolete because they feel that the government is now too reliant on them and are basically as an extension of the welfare state so they're using them as a way in which they're not having to fulfil their obligations to people in society so there's an academic I just want to finish off with this quote there's an academic called Reaches I'm not quite sure and he was reflecting on the Canadian situation in 2002 and he suggests that food banks enable governments to look the other way and neglect food poverty, nutritional health and wellbeing in countries where they're at their very infant stage the question of whether to support their development should be a matter of urgent public debate and I think that that's pretty much where we're at today so I just wanted to leave you with that final thought thank you very much the document itself is very informative but your contribution this morning it's certainly clarified a few issues for me whether there is a link between the statistics we heard at our round table this morning and the welfare reform changes why we needed scientific evidence of that it's not questioning you at all but it's almost to me there's no questioning whether bears do certain things in their natural habitat there seems to be a general concern no about a Canadian study and again the concerns were expressed this morning about food banks and food provision becoming part of the system my concern in relation to this relates to the Scottish welfare fund because we've had evidence from Government officials we've had anecdotal evidence again presented this morning as part of that process that officials at the Scottish welfare fund are referring people to food banks is that a concern for you in respect of what the experience in Canada was or is this just having to accept the reality that the welfare changes have created this huge problem and therefore there is a need to refer people because that's the only way that they can be helped probably a mixture of both do you consider the other informal providers who do provide food on unconditional basis do you have any thoughts on that? well it just happens that I've been leading on the evaluation of the Scottish welfare fund we are nearing the end of the field work we've interviewed probably 70 applicants to the Scottish welfare fund by now and what I can say is that referring to food banks is fine and is useful to applicants as long as it doesn't replace the grant and there's no there's only anecdotal evidence out there like from you had mentioned the city council there's anecdotal evidence that on some occasions the Scottish welfare fund officers rather than giving a crisis grant they would refer the applicant to the food bank for three days where for food but I have no grounded evidence for that but what I'm saying is that it's partically alright to give a grant and refer to the food bank as an additional source because again the information we have if you look at the data so far and the Scottish Government have just produced a bit more in terms of that there are more people trying to access the Scottish welfare fund there are more people being supported by the Scottish welfare fund but the actual financial awards given to individuals the average has gone down so it looks as though there's a combination of things happening that people are being supported by the Scottish welfare fund always in terms of finances but that's something you're comfortable with I mean the study that I haven't got access to the latest statistics on the amounts average amounts given in crisis grants it's definitely in most cases it's not big money at all it's short-term emergency crisis help and people applicants often find themselves in need to apply for another one and they can only apply for three crisis grants within their rolling 12 month period so again there's this question of what you do when you've exhausted your three crisis grants and you're still in need and if it happens that you've exhausted your food bank vouchers as well some major concern you can see where the problems escalate I'll go to Jamie to follow by Linda Thank you, convener, I have to say Dr Lurston and Dr Sink have answered a lot of the questions that are comprehensive opening remarks which I thank them for but there are a few things there and Dr Lurston you made the clear point that food banks are addressing and either meeting a demand they're not driving the demand and I wonder what you think then cos I have seen the copy the letter that the UK Government sent to Glasgow City Council I've also seen it referred to the UK Government Minister suggesting that one of the things that's caused this growth in demand for food banks and the growth in the number of food banks is that supermarkets are somehow being more efficient in dealing with food waste I mean to be frank I find this laughable I don't know what you well I'd find it laughable if it wasn't so it's sad but I don't know what you think of this suggestion is there any evidence that this is the case in terms of them driving the food banks and the growth of food banks I think that they're supportive from the evidence that we have they can seem to be supportive of food redistribution and surplus food redistribution which can't be a bad thing really has got to be taken as some element of positive aspect of having food banks cos people are getting access to food there are food banks out there in the more rural areas who even though they are trustal trust food banks typically take only non-perishable foods some supermarkets will give them perishable foods as well so they get fresh fruits and vegetables which they then redistribute in addition to the food that they would typically give out in a food parcel as well so I think that really the recipients are the people who are benefitting from this redistribution and it's not just the supermarkets I mean a lot of the people that we spoke to commented on the vast amount of support from the local communities as well and a lot of people feel that it is very empowering to the people in the local communities who are driving the food banks through churches and also through active volunteering as well so it is coming from the wider community too the supermarkets are really only an element in terms of their provision in donating food and giving food to food banks some don't give food directly Tesco's for example have an arrangement of the Trust and they have the Trustal Trust food banks have got two national collections per year and they also have smaller local collections which happen I think around four times per year as well so they go to supermarkets, set up outside they give people a shopping list of goods that they would find useful people can choose whether or not they want to contribute to the food banks so they are doing these massive food collection drives for the non-perishable foods then Tesco's will top up how much they have collected in terms of the overall food value and then they give 30% of that value to the food banks so the food bank can then buy additional food as it needs it so it's not just redistribution of surplus food it's also giving the food banks access to additional food when necessary So when doctors have said earlier that Lord Freud is incorrect to say that well food reform is not a driver in the increase in demand for food banks anyone that's also saying that supermarkets being efficient in dealing with food waste is also wrong I would say that in our study we found that food banks that took part in our research do not tend to run out of supply so if supermarkets are even keener to donate and do it more efficiently it can't increase the demand because it's the supply side so all that it would do is it would make food banks more comfortable about their supply I'm not sure they have consistent supply so putting it in a different way supermarkets would only fuel demand for food aid if food banks sporadically run out of supply because then they would be more supply more consistent supply and more people using food banks but that's not what we found in our study the supply is always of concern for food bank managers but they don't tend to run out of food So at best Lord Freud and these other UK ministers are misinformed to say the least I would say that at best I think that's where everything has been pointed to this morning Linda I was interested I think both of you referred to it the formality of the trust both in collecting data which is good but also that you can only go three times in the six month period I'm also aware as Dennis Curran said earlier and you've confirmed that the smaller food banks for various reasons don't keep such data and are less judgmental but I wondered if you were able to find any link between those who perhaps had been to the trust or trust the three times whether the same people were perhaps presenting at the more informal centres or was that not something you were able to pick out All right okay Well we put in probably 30 or 40 but still like that was it wasn't big enough to probe in detail I was just interested like in my own area which is why I was so keen that Dennis Curran from Loaves and Fishes was here we don't have the trust or trust we don't have any of the bigger more organised food banks it's entirely run by volunteers through Loaves and Fishes and through the churches and I'm just wondering whether the client profile is any different in some of these areas that's something we can probe but I was also interested convener in Dr Cicenco you're saying that you didn't feel more research was necessary on this particular question Well sorry I'm mistaking you More statistical evidence on why people get referred to food banks I think it has been shown as far as you're concerned I would hate to compromise you in any way my words here It comes down to the issue of robustness and how there's this sort of approach from the UK government that there is no robust evidence but generally what we find from our snapshot across Scotland was that the trust or trust data was generally indicative of the full situation across Scotland in terms of the growth of food and that the data is robust really I just wondered if your research had shown up in your own view what further research may be useful if that's something you reached a view on Can I just comment on what you were saying about the informal food providers We came across one food bank in Dundee that was run by a church it's been run by the same leary for about 25 years and even though they've seen a massive increase in users they do not want to become affiliated with the trust or trust as a food bank because they do not want to have to conform to the referral system and I'm sure that there are a multitude of other food banks that are independent and that are out there and feel similar about the way that it's conditionalised Regarding and a further research I'll be really interested and interested to find out what journeys people make from the point when they become food insecure to when they become the food bank's door because from other studies we know that people going to a food bank tends to be the last resort but what exactly people do, what strategies they employ that would be very interesting to find out We've looked at it from the perspective of the providers so getting a user perspective would be really helpful I can bring a few voices from the evaluation of the Scottish Welfare Fund because I've interviewed a few people who've used up their food bank vouchers and they were still they had no income so things obviously using family and friends support from family and friends is the main source of support that people try to use before going to but also often living off benefits that the partner has which if it's a couple with a child and the mother has with a young child the mother has her benefits but the whole household lives live off her benefits that's not a comfortable situation I've been told by one of the applicants for the Scottish Welfare Fund that she shoplifted from a garage so this happens I think for me one of the interesting things that could be expanded in terms of the people that use food banks is looking at the wider perspective of how the economic situation is at the minute we know the UK government are happy at the moment because unemployment has been pushed down to 7% apparently maybe this reflects a wider shift in how people are adopting different working patterns and how maybe you're only working 18 hours a week or 20 hours a week and you're working on minimum wage is that having a knock-on effect on people's need to use food banks because this minimum wage is actually insufficient to support people by the contributor this morning there are people in low income that you don't necessarily have to be unemployed or totally devoid of income but there are people in low incomes who are having to access food banks on this point because somebody's mentioned budgeting skills and I very much supported when Fed sector organisations teach people who want to be taught budgeting skills how to do it but you can be the champion of the world in budgeting skills but to be on such low income that you just can't make it till the end of the month so it's not just about budgeting skills Annabelle? Just a couple of quick points on the issue of the trust of trust and the conditionality I know that you state this quite freely in your report at paragraph 412 on page 11 whilst the general rule is three times three the individual food bank manager has some discretion taking into account a whole series of issues I guess in terms of crisis versus long term sustainability versus other issues so there is a discretion there on the part of the local food bank manager and I don't know to what extent if at all the trust of trust keep separate statistics about the use of that discretion might be interesting to find out but I mean it's fair the general approach as you have described looking and many of the points that I wanted to explore have been dealt with looking at the point you raised at the end about the additional research you've carried out into the USA and Canada I just wonder also and taking up the comments made from the representatives of the Red Cross this morning to what extent has there been any examination of what's happening in other European countries and in that regard I do recall that there was an EU fund recently in the news that would have have supported activity in this area but the UK government for some reason did not seek to apply for any funding under that budget stream I don't know if that's any formed any part of any additional research if yet carried out The report that was published last week that was released by the UK Government that DEFRA put forward they reflect on food banks and food aid provision in Germany and in addition to the US in Canada as well so that's really the only other country that I'm aware of in terms of offering a slightly different more European perspective in food aid provision Thank you, convener and I'd like to thank Dr Susenko and Dr Livingston for the evidence that they've given today most of the points that I was going to ask that have been covered by others but I'd like to go back to what Dr Livingston termed as our final point our final thought and she was talking about health and nutrition because of the use of food banks and I wonder if there has been any studies either here or elsewhere about the impact of the over reliance on what is mainly processed food in a lot of cases Journal papers and articles and publications that reflect on how the food that is typically redistributed from the food banks in the US and Canada does not meet nutritional standards I'm not sure about the UK at all but certainly from a historical perspective what they have looked at it's insufficient in terms of nutrition Convener, we obviously have a growing obesity problem here and one of our colleagues Dennis Robertson last week held a conference in eating disorder awareness here I wonder if there has been any studies from the use of food banks showing that there is more prevalence to be obese or there is more prevalence to have an eating disorder I do think it would be very hard to to qualify Probably from the US the food banks have been part of the scene for ages and there is lots of research on food banks But I do think there is certainly potential to look at the nutritional value within the UK of the food that is redistributed through food banks Convener, I think that that's extremely useful as I said earlier I can't imagine actually going hungry but I think that could lead you to doing things that you wouldn't normally do as a person because you're forced to do it and I hope actually this doesn't go on for as long as that we actually have the ability to do some of that research and that we can deal with this problem quite quickly and see the gradual demise of food banks but you know I think this is maybe storing up something which is going to cost society here and people here will have a lot in the future Two questions Just picking up from a comment that Linda Fabiani made earlier about whether you're able to make any distinction between the people using food banks from reading your report I thought that there were broad distinctions that there's a difference between those using inner city soup kitchens and those using trust banks to tell appears to be slightly different as I mentioned earlier those people who are accessing trust or trust food banks typically are housed and are on lower incomes or experiencing crisis potentially for the first time whereas those that are using more informal food banks or soup kitchens in the inner cities typically tend to be regularly and tell who have got an alternative type of crisis such as homelessness, drug addiction, alcoholism Complex needs So people who would actually in some respects the trust and trust would actually because of their system of referrals they would evade these people because a lot of these people wouldn't have the capacity to go to get referred and then get to a food bank and even use the food that the food bank would give them The same question is really coming on to perhaps because I thought it was a very difficult mark which is your last mark about the fact that we need to act as a matter of urgency before these food banks in this way of life becomes entrenched if we don't want to help people A lot of the people giving evidence this morning place great stock on trying to not just give out food aid but try to help people help themselves Serenians were talking about through cooking skills and building capacity and so I'm confident So a number of contributors talked about it Has there been any work atoll done any research done that shows the success or otherwise of such approaches In other words what can we do particularly through the Scottish Parliament in particular what can we do to tackle reliance on food banks How do we is it by making crisis loans more available by giving people money so they make their own choices or is it through capacity building or help out what might work I think a great example of a very cohesive community group that we came across with Dundee so they have got a community partnership that's run by Faith in the community by a gentleman called Gordon Sharp who's been involved in the community in Dundee for many years and they have got a community partnership which meets regularly and takes sort of the opinions and the experiences of people who are providing food aid for a variety of different people across the community so everything from the drop in centres to the Trustal Trust food bank to the Salvation Army who are providing and addressing a slightly different need as well and they do suggest that it is about community action it is about supporting people in the long term that the food aid provision is temporary and short term and that it's about how you build on what happens next after that so that certainly is an opportunity that could be capitalised on in terms of helping people as Philip was mentioning and as was mentioned this morning with budgeting, with cooking with being able to successfully grow out of reliance or dependence on food aid provision to me such actions are obviously would be useful but the main thing is repairing the safety net it's been torn apart and unless it's repaired it's not going to change people who will be coming to food banks but there is obviously an issue of the Westminster Government and the Scottish Government powers regarding welfare an indication of questions for anyone so again thank you very much A, providing the initial research but informing us again in a bit more depth to the work and to answer our questions and it may be I think we have a few back in front of us at some point in the future Dr Sosanko so we'll continue to monitor the research that you're providing which has been very helpful to us and thanks again for that thank you I'll suspend the meeting for a couple of minutes until what this is I've had a chance to leave Our fact-finding visit to Deafblind Scotland is part of our UC work looking at the impact of welfare reform on individuals I think that Jamie Your is going to raise off on that First of all, can I place a record my thanks to Deafblind Scotland for hosting myself, Kenan Rebecca who came along to support Kenan myself at our visit I'm not going to read over the whole report that's in front of us because obviously people have that but I think the main thing that I certainly took from the visit and it's not dissimilar to the experience of other groups of people I think with a particular condition that they're dealing with a system that doesn't particularly meet their distinct needs but I think it was particularly acute for Deafblind people and perhaps reflects a wider issue of society not recognising the factors affecting Deafblind people, it was pretty clear that from the individuals who spoke to us that it's a condition that isn't always visible to people sometimes in either element of their condition the fact that they have hearing loss or sight loss is particularly apparent to people that are dealing with them most invariably one or other isn't apparent when the other one is so that's an issue perhaps for wider society but I think it's particularly relevant for these individuals trying to interact with the welfare system one of the things that we were told about was the lack of necessary specific support we were told by one person who's Deafblind there are only four social workers dealing with the Deaf with Deaf people in Glasgow that's not even specifically Deafblind people, that's Deaf people one service user was telling us that they'd been put with the older people social work team even though she herself was only 45 and this lack of expertise can sometimes cause difficulties for them accessing the welfare system there's also an issue in terms of the lack of support for national assistance to complete application forms for social security we had one individual who is entitled to eight hours of guide communicator support each individual who's there relies heavily on their guide communicator and he was having to essentially use a huge sway of that time virtually all of it to complete these forms and it left them with no time to go out and do the other necessary things had to go see the GP get out and about so that was an issue there's also a concern about the lack of information available on what pip another benefits mean to those currently receiving DLA certainly in a format that they can access there was a call from Deafblind Scotland for people who are registered automatically receive benefits and not be subject to assessment I think crucially not be subject to reassessment that was a call so my suggestion community would be that we take this on board as the part of the work that we are doing and I think perhaps we would to communicate our findings to certainly I think we need to communicate into the DWP because that's very relevant for us as a committee and also there were other issues that were touched on that we make I don't know the health and sport committee because maybe they are wider issues not necessarily for this committee Thanks so much just to support what Jamie said it was a very helpful meeting we met, there were three officers from deafblind Scotland Ruth Dorman who is the chief executive and Steven Joyce all spoke for the organisation and then we had three members of three people who used deafblind Scotland who spoke to us as witnesses as it were Christine Frye, Frankie Thompson and Maria Crawford and what was striking from a welfare reform point of view was that the messages were very similar to those we've heard from other witnesses the difficulties they're experiencing with welfare reform but particularly from a deafblind point of view there was two points in particular that struck me one is that deafblind people may or may not have support or care and support needs but before they have care and support needs they have communication needs and the difficulty is that if you're deaf your communication needs are met in many circumstances automatically and then you're assessed for your care if you're deaf and blind your communication needs are assessed as part of your care now whatever care needs you have you cannot even begin to access anything you can't go out of the house, you can't go to the shops you can't fill in a form to be reassessed for your work capability assessment or anything else to do with the welfare reform agenda without using your guide communicator the point that James was making earlier and there's actually a bizarre difference between deaf people and deafblind people automatically getting support and deafblind not coming out of their care it's quite quite upsetting to those in the deafblind community some of them who had been deaf before had gone blind and the second point was which James touched on there is that deafblind people are not going to get better and it's yet another of those many examples at the heart of the welfare reform agenda where we are reassessing people who clearly are not going to improve we're treating them as if they're going to improve when they cannot improve and that is not just a source of frustration it's not just illogical it's very upsetting for the deafblind and the two words that were repeated over and over again and this meeting were that they were stressed and anxious about it and they felt bullied and it came across into and as I say it's a very familiar story for other experiences of added complication on top and I would agree with Jamie that actually this issue about why deafblind people have to have their communication needs met out of their care budget as opposed out of a communication budget might need to be looked at separately maybe explored with the Scottish Government because for example if you go to Glasgow City Council the people assessing and helping you may not have any knowledge or any experience of deafblind people and therefore you have instances where people might be put into older people services rather than addressing the specific needs Ken, is any of the members of the committee of any specific questions I do take on board the points that Jamie and Ken have said that this comes on the back of your say evidence of our last meeting when we were talking about specific degenerative and long-term conditions being affected by the work capability assessment in particular and I think we need to flag this up to the UK Government about the fact that as Ken pointed out people who are not going to improve are being put through the trauma of these tests and I think it's something we need to make sure that we're asking the pertinent questions about but in terms of any support via social services or health boards it would be legitimate to ask the Scottish Government if they could respond in terms of their awareness of that situation and what they might be able to do in terms of communication budgets rather than finding the money from care budgets which might be their responsibility so I think there's two lines of question that we need to pursue there and it would be useful to get responses back to that Members have other ideas that we need to I agree with that, I do think it's on the I don't know if it's the Elephant's Board committee but the Elephant's Committee I think about what it would be then but they might want to do it I think that was a fair point if we did that then then we're informing one of the other committees who might be looking at this or have it in their remit for the future Anything else? Okay, with that then I'll close the meeting to the public so that we can get into our private session