 Hi, welcome to the All Things LGBTQ Interview Show, where we interview LGBTQ guests who are making important contributions to our communities. All Things LGBTQ is taped at Orca Media in Montpelier, Vermont, which we recognize as being unceded Indigenous land. Thanks for joining us and enjoy the show. Over years, one of the go-to people to speak on behalf of LGBTQ youth was Sawyer Totten. But like all of our youth, Sawyer grew up and has moved on to start their life. So we thought we would take this opportunity to talk to Sawyer about their experience at being a youth advocate here in Vermont and what that transition into the next part of his life has been like. So welcome, Sawyer. Hi. And it's nice to see your smiling face again because you went away to college and then we didn't hear anything from you. Okay, so let's talk a little bit about your advocacy and very high visibility while you were here in Vermont. How did that come about and what made it possible for you to do that? I think it was just one of those things where outright I had been looking for people to speak at one time and I was like, sure, I'll speak. I don't really like public speaking, but I'll do it to be a face because there's no one else stepping up. So I was like, you know what? I'll do it. And then it just became a thing of like, oh, you're really good at this. And so I just kept getting asked, which was fine with me. I just kept getting asked. And I think it got to a point where sometimes I was like in my head, I'm like, God, can't they find someone else? Why do they always come to me? But I liked doing it. And I liked being that voice that no one else had and hopefully for those who are younger than me, being someone that they could look up to and be like, okay, they seem to have their stuff to get. Like they look like they're doing good. And my parents also kind of pushed me to also do it. And they always helped with writing whatever speeches I did or helping plan out the radio shows. Kind of one radio show and like TV segments and helping me prepare for those. And so having my parents behind me, but also like wherever I was speaking and whoever was organizing it also did some sort of preparation with me beforehand and like making sure I was all good. I had everything I needed, kind of like went about like, okay, so like this is how this is going to go. You know, we're going to do this, we're going to give maybe like a little introduction and then we'll do this. And so having people help me writing my stuff and also showing me how to go was very helpful. And so like that, that was, that was most helpful for me is just having my parents behind me and having a support of community behind me to be like, okay, I've got this and I've got people there to protect me if I need it. So it sounds as though a part of that was whatever was the forum for which you were being invited. They didn't forget the person who was inside of the public individual, which sounds really good. So how did your school and your peers respond to all of a sudden Sawyer is someone we're seeing on the six o'clock news. No one, I think their parents knew but I never got anything from students. I never got anything from students saying, oh, hey, I saw you on the news or, oh, hey, I read this article about you. I didn't get that from like my peers. So it was kind of nice that I could kind of, because I could kind of go to school and be somewhat of a normal kid, whatever that means. And, but on the side, I was also doing like a radio, like I would have to leave school early, like I went and left school early one day to go to radio show. And like, I told my teachers about it, but I didn't really tell my classmates because some of them were ones that I'd gone to elementary, like had been going to school with since preschool and, and they knew me, like, be transition. And so sometime, and so like I knew some reactions of kids and they weren't always the greatest. And so it was kind of nice that like when I was at school, I could just focus on school and being a student and learning. And I didn't have to be like, oh, did they, did they see me on the news? Like, are people going to start like doing, like treating me different now I'm doing this? So that was one, like that was one nice thing was like, I didn't get much recognition outside of school or like at school from what I did outside of school. I sometimes had teachers do it because my senior year, we did a drag, a drag, a drag ball at the halftime game of our, at the halftime show of our homecoming football game, and we made news everywhere. So like the whole school knew about that one. And I think that was the only time where I did some sort of public speaking and articles that everyone in school was talking about and like, because like they had all shown up to the game and they knew that I was organizing it and they knew that like I had this major role in this, but outside of that one event, there was not much recognition. So were there things that the school did that made it possible for you to be a public transgender youth, but just a student once you walked into the school building itself? Yeah, mostly around the drag ball because of how public it was and the article and the mass media attention we got, there was a lot of threats made. And so the school did sit us down, like sit, those of us involved down and they're like, Hey, you know, your names are out there. This is what's going on. We are monitoring this stuff. You know, if we see anything that is most harmful to you, you know, we'll notify your parents and we'll make sure like, you know, safety is put in place. But and they also just like, I didn't get special treatment from my teachers from like, do you need any like protection going home? Where it was nothing like that. It was mostly just like they treated me like every other student. They didn't give me special treatment. I didn't ask for special treatment because I was like, you know what, I just want to be a student. I do this stuff on the side and like after school, but like when I'm at school, I'm a student and they were more than happy to help. And they always said, if I needed anything to like come to them. And so that no situation came up where I really needed to get help from the school. That sounds like it was a very supportive and a very unique environment and looking at what is happening across the country and some of the school districts even here in Vermont, a unique and. It's encouraging to hear that there are school districts who get it and who get it right. So as you were looking at making that next step in your life's journey, there's a plethora of anti-trans legislation and public conversations happening nationwide. Did those conversations and some of that hustle legislation that has been enacted influence how you chose to make that next step? 100% when it came time, end of sophomore year going into my junior year, my parents and I started having conversations of where would be best for me to go to school. Every single school that I looked at, one of the first things we did was look up the population of LGBTQ students at that school and what legislation was at that school with the schools like Title IX protections, like how well their Title IX was and what protections they had in place for LGBTQ plus students. And one of my big things was I wanted to go to a school in a city. I didn't want to go to like a school in the middle of nowhere. I wanted to be near a city so I could go do stuff. I wanted to get out of Vermont. I love Vermont, but it was just I felt like I was at a point where I was like, you know what, I want to I want to go explore. I want to go outside of Vermont. I want to go outside of New England. Like I want to really explore. And I applied to schools in Washington, D.C. and across the East Coast. But one of my big things was I can't go below D.C. I was like, you know what, for my own physical and mental safety, I should not go further than D.C. I should not go further south than D.C. And my uncle was helping me find schools because I was looking at schools of public health programs. And he was like, Tulane or Emery. And I was like, and one of the comments he was like, if you can handle the south. And I was like, I thank you for making money. Thank you for like help like understanding like, you know, it's not the safest option for me to go south. And so I ended up choosing a school in Maryland. And one of the things that the school boasts about is like the population of LGBTQ students on campus. And it's a good pop like it's a good sized population. There's probably a couple hundred students who are LGBTQ. And the school's small. There's like a thousand post graduate and undergrad students combined. Which is really nice. So it's like a small enclosed campus. Everyone's like always doing stuff. And so that was it was good to see that they were boasting about it. And then when I actually got to the campus, it was like, oh yeah, you can tell like this is a, this is a pretty queer campus. Like, you know, it's a liberal art school, but like it's still a pretty queer campus. And my parents and my parents were definitely did more research than I did on like, all of the like what harassment laws were out there and what the state, we also looked at what the state does. And I ended up choosing a really good state to go to because just a few weeks ago, Maryland's governor with made an executive order saying that Maryland is now a trans sanctuary state. And so like that's just kind of like, after a year of going there, I'm like, okay, awesome. Like this is a great thing. And a good chunk of my friend group is also LGBTQ. And so making friends down in Maryland and like kind of solidifying a spot and having this great community was helpful. But looking at what's the school, how great the school was for LGBTQ plus students was like top priority. It was mostly like, do they have the major I want? Okay, they have the major I want. Do they have protection for me as a trans student? So that was like the second thing that we always looked at and made sure of and the state and everything. So you're talking about having done a fair amount of research to ensure that the environment that you were moving into was going to be a receptive and supportive environment. How difficult was it for you to find those resources? Or were there several sort of centralized repositories of information that you went to look for information regarding the response to LGBTQ plus students? It was mostly just looking on their website and really doing a fine tooth comb through their web, like the campus website of like looking at what their policies were like reading the student handbook if they had one. One thing I do wish there was was a centralized database of LGBTQ plus safe schools in the country because it was a lot of, like it was a lot of reading and I wish I could have kind of like instead of just instead of just like looking at schools for like just my major like I wish I could have been like okay I'm gonna go to this website and these are like what the top probably not 100 but like the top whatever number of schools for LGBTQ plus students in the country, you know okay from there I'm gonna go. But it was mostly just I mostly just researched schools based on my major and then after I found a school that had my major that's when I saw if they were safe and where they were localized in the country. But I do wish that there was maybe a database that was like more had all of that information kind of like combined where it was like these are the schools and you can click the school and it will just take you straight and they just have a page of like this is like what we know about this school and maybe like some firsthand accounts from students. I think that would hopefully be more informational for for younger folks or maybe just looking at schools now. So it sounds like the first filter was what are the hostile states then looking at okay this is what I want to major and it sounds like healthcare is one of those and then looking at the individual schools. So you have stated that having a database somewhere like with GLSEN or Trevor Project or whoever that contains this information would be helpful. What else is it that we could do and in thinking in terms of your experience here in Vermont to support you as you have moved on in your life. What are the things that we could do to ensure that you know there's there's some support in place. I mean not I have a great support system at home but not all LGBTQ plus folks have a support system when they go to school. So for those who do choose to go out of state or maybe those who choose to stay in state of having like a group of like LGBTQ plus college students from all different from like all different schools being able to talk about that or having like a way like a group chat of just like talking about things and also just the financial stuff. A lot of kids don't think that like if they don't have the support of their parents and they don't like there's so many scholarships and so much documents and they might not have those folks to help them with that creating a support to help them find scholarships maybe LGBTQ plus geared scholarships or or something so they know that they that they can go to college and they can they can go and yeah that's yeah. So it sounds like what we might want to focus on is creating some type of support network here in Vermont while you're still a youth and while you might be still involved with outright Vermont either in one of the programs or a Friday night group or whatever that can be a sounding board as you're getting ready to move on and maybe following you briefly notice I said briefly as you move on to that next part in your life to ensure that okay you know there is that listening ear but also creating a peer support group that's part of that overall process so that the people with whom you shared activism here in Vermont you're still have a voice with each other once you move on yeah so looking at sort of the totality of your experience if there is a youth who is watching this who has questions about am I a transgendered youth or what are my options what advice do you have for them? I think if we're talking options I didn't think I was worried about going to college because you know you got like new room like person you're going to room with you've never met in your entire life very little contact you've got communal bathrooms luckily I was on a colored floor so like going to the bathroom like that was not an issue but it was definitely like a little nerve-wracking of like okay I'm going off to college and with the person I have never met before you know when my first year roommate and I were getting to know each other I was like hey just so you know I am trans like I just want to let you know I did have top surgery I have scars but like I just want to let you know I'm trans and I like I do weekly shots so you're aware and like and that was and that was it and he was super chill about it he's like yeah no problem you're you're all good and so so but going to college can be scary at first but you make friends really fast and like it's not like like making friends it's like almost like you're in elementary school and like you go up to the kid on the playground you're like hey you want to be friends sure and like you become instant best friends it's like it's that like you just meet someone in class or like in the dining hall and like you sit with each other a few times and all of a sudden like you click immediately and you're the like instant best friends it is so weird like that doesn't happen in high school really it's like it's almost like your little kids on a playground like asking do you want to be friends yeah it's like it's it's so sweet um but there are supports out there um there you know hour in Vermont is a great resource i went to Friday night group and i went to trans group and i went to camp outright for like four years and it was it was incredibly helpful to make me feel not so alone because i was pretty much the only trans kid that i knew of in in my school and so being able to go from being in a school surrounded by straight cis kids to going to Friday night group and outright where i was surrounded by other queer and trans youth was so helpful for me and didn't make me feel alone and and it was it was great and so if you can't make it to the in-person ones they have virtual ones in multiple different towns now which is amazing um but reach out to outright if you need help with anything they're they're an insanely great resource you made a brief reference to getting shots once a week so i'm going to presume that as you were looking at schools and options that there was support there was medical support readily available for you as part of what helped you to make your ultimate decision luckily i didn't so the night if you have a primary care physician now um you're able to still see like they're able to still prescribe you medications across borders um so i never had to change my doc like i didn't have to find a new doctor when i went down or any like i was able to like she would just fill my like i would just call them up be like hey i need to refill my stuff and they would just send it to the pharmacy nearby school and so i was able to get it the only thing that i did have to stop which was a little frustrating was therapy like my therapist wasn't allowed to do cross the board like cross-state lines and so if you do have a therapist that is one thing that you do have to like find a new one um and so that was a little frustrating but i was like i was doing really great like i had therapy for like like going to therapy once a week and then i was like great now i gotta stop and like do this and and try and find a new therapist but most colleges have a counseling center that you can make an appointment you can do a certain amount of counseling with them and then if you know you want more further counseling they can help you find a therapist off campus um but i was able to continue getting my testosterone and needles and syringes while still being off uh out of state and being um nine hours away from home and you know the one like downside is sometimes i didn't always have everything i needed and that was a little frustrating and having to call my parents and get everything figured out like do i have extra supplies at home can you ship it to me um but no i it was it was great like you can still get your medications all right and with that thank you for spending this time with us of course and i look forward to hearing about Sawyer Totten the activist reforming health care in the u.s. good luck on your journey thank you on frequent episodes of all things you have heard me make reference to the issue of sexual violence and how sexual violence impacts our lgbtq plus communities today we have a unique opportunity to talk with one of the people who is running a central brumont organization specifically to respond to the needs of those of us who have experienced sexual violence in our life and with our families and with our friends so please welcome for a first time but not the last visit with and board the executive director of mosaic vermont welcome and thanks so much for having me today uh i i i am so glad to finally be able to invite to the command the show so let's start with let's talk a little bit about you how how did you happen to come to vermont and then how did you happen to come to mosaic sure you know i was born here um no i didn't know that yep i'm in original i was born in adison county i've lived in chitinon county but gosh i think i've been in central vermont since 2006 so most of you know my adult life has been spent in washington county um i love it here this is home so what is it that you did before you came to mosaic right before i was at mosaic i was a child sexual abuse prevention trainer at prevent child abuse vermont um and also uh you know i've spent the past almost 12 years as a foster parent um you know through the dcs gcf system supporting children youths and families i've had a lot of children and i kind of we worked with a lot of children and youth who experienced sexual violence and trafficking um and need extra support so part of the work on sexual violence is something that was already part of your personal life so that stepping into a professional role wasn't that far reach no not at all you know i i left vermont um as as many youth do i went to school in southern california for undergrad and um and had some pretty big learning crews and experiences out there i started volunteering in domestic and sexual violence services out there and just the volume the volume of need for services is just to not compare and got really interested in what that looked like um in vermont and i came home to do grad school i studied humane education which is essentially like all the things that are wrong in the world looking at unsustainable systems and and thinking about solutions and you know what is what are the opportunities um here for for harm reduction or healthy living and uh it took it took some time you know i i tried a bunch of different things in central vermont um in housing for a little bit and i ended up working with animals humane society for a number of years and um my heart just kept pulling me back to this issue of of sexual violence and just the the incredible impact that that kind of trauma can have on on a person or a family or community um you know at any point in their life and how it it you know the theme of trauma can pull through um and be really really present and our communities need for both individual and collective healing around harm that's occurred it sounds like with your life experience you were the right choice for mosaic at the right time and i sure hope so thank you sure thank you for being willing to take that on so let's talk a little bit about mosaic and some people may know mosaic by a different name because the organization itself has been around for a while and had a recent transition where the name mosaic was taken on to support the work that was being done so can you give us a little bit about history and the mission of the organization itself sure this uh this organization is turning 40 next year um which is a pretty important milestone for us you know as many primarily in the early days women's serving organizations this was started as as community support as community members identifying a need to support each other people experiencing sexual violence and volunteers getting together um and and doing really really incredible work um and grew over the years into uh you know a program that was a member of the vermont network against domestic and sexual violence um it ended up uh in our in our location in berry city we have we have an office building um started the first shelter that we know of in the world that served people of all genders um who were fleeing sexual violence or trafficking situations um when i joined in 2018 it was a pretty pivotal moment for for where we were as an organization in general there had already been conversations for a long time about whether or not sexual assault crisis team was the right name anymore you know we made a call from the office people would pick up their phone and it would say sexual assault was calling right not great um and that really it really gave the impression that um that our response was only that acute moment of crisis in which people would engage and that it that's really changed mosaic was already doing prevention work um when i arrived and um we are really we've grown quite a bit even since 2018 had some bumps you know during covid covid was not an easy time for anybody um and of course we were scheduled with this big community launch of our our name to change to mosaic vermont with a big strategic plan we were launching that was scheduled for April 2nd of 2020 um you know so that party didn't happen um and ever since then we've been just um really working hard to understand what the community wants from us what they need from us and how we can deliver those things and that's meant to really hard look at how we're delivering programming um how we're talking to our community about sexual violence and what the next steps might be for you know our mission that includes um not only healing communities but ending violence what does that look like for us now and before i move on to really talk about the services and the programs that mosaic has to offer i i could read your strategic plan by going on to the mosaic website correct you sure can and and if i had comment there there's a means to reach out and talk to you correct yes okay so let's talk a little bit about the programs that mosaic has to offer and starting with okay what are some of the older programs to which people might be a customer expecting and what are some of the newer programs that you know that that healing model and prevention and reaching out to the individual who might be impacted by sexual violence sure you know we're talking a lot internally about how do we how do we frame this conversation with the community because it's easy to put ourselves in boxes right advocacy and prevention as though those are different things and they're really not they have some different strategies around them and i think most people are going to be familiar with our with our advocacy program which is the response to sexual violence you know that's the easiest way to describe it and that for us looks like 24 hour helpline we respond in person any time of day to central mont medical center to help support people who are having sexual assault nurse examinations following harm we do you know support if folks are choosing to make a report to law enforcement we'll support them you know in that process and their decisions along the way court involvement accessing medical care potentially accessing mental health care and looking at the acute needs that are occurring in their life at that time you know we're complex people and sexual violence the experience of that trauma you know could be just the tip of the iceberg of what's happening in folks lives and so we really look at that the whole person and when somebody calls we don't have an agenda for you we want to know how you're feeling how you're doing what you want us to know you really don't have to tell us a story you know it doesn't have to be a disclosure but letting us letting us work with you around what you think you might need both in this moment you need some breathing exercises some grounding technique you know are you are you having some high stress and really hard feelings right now or are you thinking trying to think strategically about what healing could look like in the long term and that's you know advocacy is really we're often asked for what's you know what are our services what what will you do if I but but the thing is sexual violence is different for for everybody both when it happened how it happened the picture of their entire lives and and how they might heal and you know that's that's really that's really challenging because we want to you know we want to be able to tell you yes we'll we'll hopefully be able to meet your need but what we're going to say is we're going to meet your need the best we can depending on what your need is in the moment at that time and what our resources are that are available and we feel like if we make you know this exact menu of services we're actually going to serve the community less because people are pretty complicated and and and really creative about what they want that's different. If I am hearing you correctly you're going to be there not only in my immediate crisis moment but you're also going to be there long term so that if I am a long-term survivor and I'm encountering difficulties in the middle of the night the helpline is still there for me and I would be able to I would be able to call it and get supportive services and that if I was going through the legal process you would be there as my advocate as that was playing out. Yes absolutely again it's different for every person some people call us immediately as soon as the harm occurs or the hospital calls us you know if consent is given the hospital call us you know immediately after harm occurs other folks call us decades later and say you know I'm ready to start thinking about how this has been impacting my life and what that might mean for me going forward and the response is going to be different right like if it happened decades ago we're not going to send you to the hospital for a medical exam but we are going to ask how is it showing up for you what are the things that you are identifying might be helpful for you moving forward and we actually we have an intern right now a master's and social work intern who's doing some really incredible work with sort of senior populations and going around the senior centers and having conversations and collecting data there's going to be we're going to be doing a you know a Washington County exploration of what people who are now seniors who are impacted by sexual violence at some point in their life even child sexual abuse what are their unique needs now in this time in this culture how can we support people that could look like you know doing some art programming healing art programming in senior centers that could mean doing support groups that are specifically targeted to older generations you know it really we want to know what the community wants from us and often what we choose to do next or what we choose to seek funding for next is really driven by what the input is from the community you know up to when we're writing that grant we want to know what's important to folks and what they'd like to see from us we can respond to that to the best of our ability you know as funding allows of the years and and those information sessions are going to be happening over the summer the fall is that something that's immediately forthcoming sure the the serving and the interviewing folks who are senior with experiences of you know previous violence is going to be starting in July and August we're looking for we're looking at a report ready for the community for this December so it's not just looking at what could mosaic do it's looking at you know anybody involved in senior care in our community what what is the ask who how could it be provided how do folks want to get involved you know we want to learn we want to learn how the community can respond to this historically a lot of the work of domestic and sexual violence has been something that's been really gatecapped right there's been this really strong belief that that the agencies that were doing this work are the experts in this and you sure absolutely they are mosaic also really believes that that the expertise for healing and the expertise for for supporting each other and for working through trauma and for building healthy communities already exists in our community and can be strengthened and can be identified but we're all about engaging folks in how do we do this together how do we learn from each other build each other up support each other and learn how to hold trauma as a community and how to build our way to a healthier future together and that's you know that's an important part of how we approach all of our programming and and I want to step back a little bit because we've been using this sort of umbrella term of sexual violence and you've made reference to like childhood sexual abuse and trafficking sexual violence can be so much more than merely what people perceive as a sort of traditional rape scenario it can include sexual harassment intimate partner violence dating violence etc so mosaic would be there to support that full spectrum of experiences sure if stalking experiences of trafficking you know folks don't we don't tend to answer the hotline and you know we don't say okay what was your experience of sexual harm or put yourself in this category for us often often people call us and this is welcome people call us and say I'm not sure if what happened to me was okay and there folks are often listening for us to make the decision about whether or not they were harmed and that's such an interesting experience to process that with folks if you're calling then you had a reason to call and it doesn't it doesn't really matter to us in the big picture it matters in our relationship with you but it doesn't really matter whether you fit in a perfect little box of whether this qualified as you know a certain type of offense or not it's what happened to you how did it impact you what do you need now if your body feels like something was wrong then it was wrong maybe it doesn't rise to a criminal investigation but most people aren't looking for law enforcement involvement um anyway many people do and it's it's it might be a choice depending on the scenario but everybody's really individual and what their experience was and what they need and you know you don't have to call and say I'm being stalked or I was trafficked you know call and say I'm I'm having a hard time something's happened to me I might need some support so if somebody who is watching this says this is important work I want to help I I want to become more involved in dealing with the issue of sexual violence and and some for Vermont what how might I become involved with mosaic and how could I support the work of mosaic gosh there are so many ways to to get involved right now we're hiring right now we're hiring an advocate somebody to you know answer the helpline and show up in person and support people who've experienced harm we're also hiring folks who maybe have you know regular day jobs the nine to five but who want to do this work um one or two nights a week or one weekend a month or something we're hiring some helpline advocates we always need that after-hour support we do 24-hour services um and that's sort of a non-traditional job and can be a side gig to what you do um as long as you can respond to the to the Central Vermont Medical Center within half an hour of receiving a phone call so those jobs are posted right now on indeed I believe and um we also once or twice a year will will do a big training so there's pretty significant training right for you to be able to answer that phone we want to make sure that you're trauma informed that you're understanding um you know everything about how to really support people who might be really different from you um and how they respond um and the questions that they ask and what their needs are um so once or twice a year we'll do a big training where we invite the community um to either you know become paid helpline advocates or potentially to volunteer depending on what your availability is um and do that work one of our biggest needs is um we're hearing from the community that folks want certain opportunities from us they want support groups they they want us to do more community conversations um and community gathering opportunities and prevention and the best thing that you can possibly do is when we offer those things come to them so that might mean watching our social media um and seeing what we're doing checking in what are the events that are coming up um we have some cool stuff happening and then letting us know what it was that worked and what it is that maybe you want to see next time as we really build into understanding what our community wants right now in this post-COVID era um as far as you know opportunities for for gathering and for uplifting our voices and listening to survivors and having our community receive the feedback that that that we're here and um and available to do that support we also of course always need donations um you know we do receive state and federal funding and um and that's amazing and allows these programs to happen um it also is you know somewhat restricted in how creative we can get about responding to the individual needs of the survivor so if you want to creatively support um survivors who have needs that maybe the federal government doesn't agree with us the highest priorities you can make a donation on our website um you can become a monthly donor there are a lot of ways to to get involved that way as well we also have opportunities to join our board and and really be part of the visioning in the future of who we are as an organization and I want to acknowledge that as we are doing this interview all of a sudden my screens are frozen so I'm hoping that the audio was still there and people could hear the conversation and I want to end with acknowledging that mosaic is looking at doing an LGBTQ2S plus focus health conference in the fall and if people would like information about it or wanting to present if they go on to mosaic's website they could get information about that yes absolutely and save the date for october 7th we don't have the details yet of of you know what each part of that day will look like but we're looking at having a pretty amazing bash in berry city in the berry auditorium on october 7th that sounds one that sounds wonderful and hopefully people were seeing our smiling faces and I will be looking at inviting you back again as we get closer to that health conference and talking about what it is that mosaic is hoping is going to be achieved and with that thank you and for spending this time with us thanks Keith thank you for joining us and until next time remember resist