 Hello everyone, ladies and gentlemen, my name is Ali Hassan. I'm an international TV presenter and journalist and I have the great pleasure and privilege to moderate this upcoming session, which is Promising to be a very interesting and timely one because we have none other Than the European Commissioner for Justice with us didier Reinders lovely to have you with us Commissioner we've been talking a lot about democracy in the previous 24 hours Privacy human rights values all these labels that have been gone around and been mentioned throughout the sessions here on This stage, but there are some worrisome tendencies as a matter of fact the national endowment for democracy is saying Democratic countries are more susceptible to authoritarian tendencies today than at any other time in the post Cold War era troubling and Worrisome is that Europe which for many years if not decades have been a bulwark of Democracy is not exempt from that quite on the country We have some countries like Hungary, Poland, Slovenia, even Austria these days where you are seeing some authoritarian Tendencies as the European Commissioner for Justice. How concerned are you? But we try to deliver the level about that and so we try to be sure that it's possible to continue to Organize a rule-based system and if you want to do that, you need to pay attention to the rule of law to the democratic process and to the human rights and of course We try to do the job at home in the EU first to protect the EU But also to be credible outside and when you spoke about some member states What we try to do is first of all to engage a dialogue with the member states So for the first time last year we have published a rule of law report on the 27 member states And I must say that we have received many positive reactions to improve the situation in the different member states But sometimes you have a more systemic issue and you have mentioned some member states And there we need to use other tools and in brief We have won the possibility to go to the court of justice the highest court in Europe to ask to take a decision and to Imporn some Evolutions in different member states and it's the case and we have received positive reaction of the court of justice in the last month But if it's not enough we try so to make a link between defending on different policies and The protection of the rule of law if there are some breaches to the rule of law It's possible to suspend or to stop some funding to give an example in the last years We have seen some attacks against the lgbtiq community And so we have suspended some funding and we continue to do that with a success because there are some way back in Different member states and we'll continue and now we have a huge mechanism in the beginning of this year It's a so-called conditionality That means that if we have a real breach to the rule of law in one member state It will be possible to suspend or to stop all the different findings not specific findings But the MFF and all the recovery and resilience facility And we have seen maybe to conclude on this in the last days About the recovery and resilience plan that we have put forward to start the recovery in Europe We have discussions about that if it's impossible to see reforms about the independence and the quality of the justice system Or about the fight against corruption It's possible to don't deliver to don't fund the recovery And the resilience plan in some member states and to give example You have mentioned Poland and Hungary are in discussion now about that because we have put some country-specific Recommendations in all analytes of the budget in the so-called Europe and semester in Europe and we make a link if it's impossible to Implement reforms in relation with that. We don't want to fund new developments in those countries And you've already mentioned some of the measurements that are in your toolbox if you will as European Commission There are some politicians some European politicians However, who say after the European Commission has released its latest annual rule and law report that the Report is toothless because at the end of the day there is an absence of recommendation against violators There is an absence of of actual Based real-life based tools that you can take against these countries. I take it you disagree Yes, I disagree because the conclusions of the two first reports in September last year and July this year Were very clear and is the reason why you have seen maybe concrete reforms in Italy They are voting no reforms in the justice system on the basis of our conclusions But to be clearer we have decided to come next year with real recommendations very concrete recommendations It was set by the president of the Commission in Speech in before the open Parliament Because it will be maybe Simple to say we recommend something and then the follow-up will be maybe more evident But again to don't have any doubts about that in a very large majority of member states the Report coming from the Commission It's an important tool to start discussions about reforms in the real pressure Because there is a real intention to improve the rule of law But in some it's not enough and we need to use all the tools like I said the court of justice or the funding the discussion about the funding and We have the same discussions with the Council of Europe or with the World Bank When we are looking to or the candidate countries Because we will ask to the candidate country before the accession to the European Union to fulfill all the criteria about the rule of law and human rights and Democracy but also with the neighboring countries and in the dialogue with all the partners also with Africa We have started new partnership with Africa and I've asked to put the same approach on the rule of law in that in the partnership Interestingly enough. It was only three decades only 30 years ago that Francis Fukuyama wrote the end of history implying that liberal democracy is gonna triumph He mentioned Europe of course is one of those places that will lead the way now We have countries again without trying to single out anyone we have countries that are deeply undermining the Independent judiciary that are undermining freedom of press sexual orientations all these things on a daily basis in the heart of Europe you are a very experienced politician. You've been around for a long time. You were a Belgium minister for 20 years What's the words that of your sentiments? Are you surprised sharp dismayed? Disappointed at the events that have unfolded in the previous years Sometimes is appointed about the Evolution and certainly the determination to undermine the justice system to be concrete But I'm not so surprised because during many years We have paid attention in Europe to the budgetary situation the economic conversion the social conversion We're not so much about the values to be concrete After the accession to the European Union to a set it's done You are fulfilling all the political criteria So it's not the need to verify that since some years maybe from 2016 We have start I was in the consulate that time and we have start to discuss about a possible verification of The values and the respect for the values like we have about the budgetary situation and we have enhanced the Control on the budget since the bank crisis and the sovereign debt crisis ten years ago No, maybe with the evolution in some member states to another authoritarian regime We are paying more attention also to the values and that is very new But I said it's not only to pay attention to that in the EU But it's also to be more credible when we discuss with the orders and we want to have our common Standards in Europe sharing the same values But we try so to have an influence on the rest of her. I will just give you some examples I have just this listen to the previous discussions about health When you try to protect the privacy to protect the personal data You need to put into place a regulation in Europe is the GDPR And we have seen in some years three years now after the implementation that their privacy laws are Same kind of regulations in many parts of the world not only in California or in South Korea But it's in Kenya and so more and more we are moving to a Standardization on the basis of the same values with some like-minded partners the same about the consumers I'm in charge of the consumer protection. Of course, we need to protect the safety of the product and To to give safe products to the consumer is the reason why we are engaging with dialogue with China about that You know that 70% of the unsafe products in the European market I'm coming from abroad and not from European companies But we need a sort to protect the data of the consumers when they are more and more shopping online And you know that with the pandemic is the case and then we try sort to put into place new regulation about the protection of the environment Fight against climate change or protection of biodiversity or the protection of human rights in the way to organize the Corporate governance in the companies I will come in the next weeks with a proposal about the sustainable corporate governance That means the obligation to put into place a due diligence process on the own operations of the company But also the supply chain To verify the naked the possible negative impact on the environment on the human rights give an example We have listened many comments about China in the last days, but we want to file against false labor It's very clear and run to ban the introduction of the open market of products with false labor include and so that means that when you speak about rule of law Phenomenal rights, it's important to deliver at home in the European Union and to take care in different fields of that to be able to try to have an influence with like-minded partners on the standardization at the global level and that's very important the GDPR was a good example I'm hoping that in the sustainable governance. We'll have the same Impact like we have had with the Paris Agreement on the climate indeed and you have mentioned that the credibility of the European Union is very much Impetent and and and at stake for what you are trying to do how often does it happen when you go around the world and you talk to other ministers commissioners and Trying to point out there for lack of the better term deficiencies in democracy and human rights and they're telling us Why don't you get your own house in order first? How often does that happen? No, but first of all we explained that now we are monitoring the situation in all the member states But if it's needed we are taking actions to be concrete you spoke about independence of the justice system I have asked to the Commission to go to the court of justice To impose daily financial sanctions against Poland to be very concrete Concerning the independence of the justice system But it's not just to talk about that is to take concrete actions and we try to ask to do the same In all the parts of Europe Maybe with I said the candidate countries or eastern partnership, but also in the world I have had many discussions with the the World Bank about that and we try so to make a link between defending of different policies and At least the respect for human rights and fundamental rights of the of the citizens Of course, we have lying minded partners and it's maybe easier to discuss with them But also there we need to have a very strong discussions because just to remark first If we want to be strong, we need to deliver at home, but we need to have more and more a so-called Strategic autonomy. We need to be able to manage ourself in some fields Our development during the pandemic. It was very clear about vaccination We are the first continent now to provide vaccines in the rest of the world and we have a real capacity in the vaccination process, but We have had discussions in the last hours about occurs and different evolution in security field We need to continue to invest in our own security to be more autonomous And to be able to have a real discussion in an alliance with some partners on an equal footing And when we discuss about data protection to go back to our first issue Of course, we have the GDPR But we want to see if it's possible For the protection to fly over with the data when you travel With the data to the us you need to be sure that the protection is traveling to And now i'm in discussion with our us colleagues about a successor of the so-called privacy shield So it will be possible to organize traveling of data to The us like we have organized with japan or with south korea With the same protection of the personal data, of course, they are industrial data It will be there in contrary better to exchange and to open the access for startup researchers and developers But your personal data is very important and to be concrete What i've seen i've seen in europe in some member states But also in the world It's a real conflict between some goals Sometimes I have listened the comments saying Of course, it's important the privacy the protection of personal data, but we have a security issue So we need to have an access we need to have a retention of data Or it's important to have an economic development So you need to protect the data, but we need to exchange and we need to use Yes, but if your personal data you need to protect and we have listened just now about health is the same You want to be sure that there is a protection of your personal data But there are many actors asking to have an access and is the reason why you have maybe on your In your pocket your smartphone We have organized just before the summer the digital covet certificate I was in the parliament and the council to have an agreement on a new legislation in two months time It's very short at the u level But with a first condition a limited number of data We don't need to know if you are sick or not with another disease We need to know if you are vaccinated if you have a test Or if you have a recovery from the disease no more than that No information about your blood or about other kind of issues So that's also very important and now we are in discussion with many partners To see if it's possible to implement the same system with the same protection You mentioned the procedures that the european union have started against some member states Including hungary and poland of course Some of these countries in exchange and return Are at least on on on a verbal note are threatening to leave the european union They're saying listen if you push us too hard If you push us to take european law over our national law there might be consequences We've all the european union has already lost great brit now How concerned are you and how delicate is the issue for you as commissioner for justice to strike the right balance Between ensuring that values human rights and the rule of law is being guaranteed without Expelling or losing other members But there are in fact two elements in discussion with some countries that the first one so What's the answer of course? It's possible to disagree With the european commission. It's a political body So if you put into place a legislation in one member state We are sure that maybe it's a discrimination or it's a breach to the rule of law to independence of the justice system But it's possible to explain no We are with other goals But if we disagree We have the possibility to go to the court of justice And when you have a decision of the court of justice it's become to be a binding decision And so we try to explain to all those member states that they have signed a treaty With an article two in the treaty Explaining the values and we are sharing the same values. And so we have a charter for fundamental rights. We have different laws And if at the end it's possible to have a binding decision of the court of justice You need to apply. So that's the first answer. So of course we may disagree but not against Like in the us when you have a decision of the supreme court Like at the national level and now we need to push pressure on different member states to to maintain Sensor principle because there is a risk of spillover effect from one country to another one Maybe from Germany in some case to others if we are challenging the decision of the court of justice It's all hydrogen if you disagree with european law, you don't need to attack the high Court of justice you need to change the law to give an example. We have many debate about migration We have put on the table a new migration pact change the law But don't attack the authority of the court of justice and the other comments that i've listened in many Discussions with some member states. Yes, but we are elected So they are explaining that democracy Is the only one answer and if you are elected you form a government and so you may change the rules No, there are some limits. That's the rule of law And i'm coming from a country where sometimes it's very difficult to form a government It's not the only one now. There are orders in europe But also if you are able to form a government with only one party There are some limits in your possible actions and the limits are in your own constitution But are also in the EU treaties and maybe in international rules in relation with what again rule of law democracy And fundamental rights and we don't ask to have the same system everywhere. You know that we have 27 Different electoral systems. It's very difficult to understand the system in my country in your country too But we will have the only one presidential election in France next year the real presidential election So we have different system But we are quite sure that they are democratic and it's the same for the justice system For all the kind of elements we ask not to be similar So I fully understand the the comments about the different culture different history But we need to be in compliance with the values and that's the main issue And if we are doing that at home again It's possible to discuss with other partners and to try to form a group of partners at International level to go in the same direction Of course, it's easier with some than with orders And I want to repeat that With many difficulties that we have had maybe with the us in the last weeks and months We are allies. We are like-minded We are sharing the same values that we try to convince them to work together at the international level It's maybe more difficult with some orders and the development that we are seeing on a global scale Namely that democratic countries are more and more susceptible to authoritarian tendencies take the u.s Storming of the capital in america. You had a presidential Or you had a president rather who didn't acknowledge the results of the election I mean these are setting bad examples, of course for the rest of the world So it's becoming more it's becoming probably more difficult to to set the example and to insist on democratic values and human rights Of course with examples like these no, of course is the reason why the new president job I then decided to try to organize a summit about democracy Due to the events in capital ill, but it's not only The challenge for the internal democracy in one country. It's also the fact that it was combined with bilateral actions and no more multilateral actions And if i'm looking to the difference between the previous administration and the new one We have seen in the last days that there are some common approach on some specific issues in the world But the main difference is maybe a real new willingness to take part in multilateral discussions We will see we will verify of course if it's the reality But to be able again to take part in multilateral discussions with a real capacity To defend all positions as europeans. We need to be strong in europe Again about democracy human rights fundamental rights, but we need a sort to build more and more Our own strategic autonomy that doesn't mean that we want to be against orders But we want to be sure that we are discussing on an equal footing with different partners And it's the case in health policy. You know that I've seen that in the commission We didn't have any competence in health system. It's not a real competence at the a u level It's national competence, but we have built a new policy They are today due to the pandemic and now there's a common agreement in the member state that we need to have a European policy in health I'm hoping that it will be the same about security and defense about the control of the external borders and about different kind of issues If you are not doing that We'll have more turbulences in the a u And we will lose our credibility in the discussions with the order So it's not against all the partners, but we need to have an autonomic A strategic autonomy in the a u and we need to deliver to do the job at home I try to do that about democracy human rights and Also in the electoral debates in many member states is important to pay attention to the declarations and to try to repeat that We need to work together with some principles And I said the principles are the primacy of the a u law when the open union is competent But also the fact that if you have a high jurisdiction Like the open court of justice you need to apply the binding decisions of such a court of justice like The highest court in in the country international At the national level and with 27 member states as the eu commissioner for justice It cannot be easily by any stretch of the imagine I can imagine getting everyone on board as a matter of fact if we look around the world if we If we put on some some global glasses and and look beyond we you see different alternative models throughout the world As a matter of fact yesterday during dinner. We had president kagami From rwanda. Some might argue. It's an imperfect democracy, but it's a functional system You have other parts of the world where you have the same is democracy The b and and all it used to be at least on on paper or Is that a slippery slope if we say well, look, there's an argument to be made democracy versus efficiency Sometimes in order to be efficient to get things done. Maybe you could have to compromise on some democratic Elements. Well, what is your take? My first priority is I will say the rule of law So the fact that we want to work with a rule based system and to be sure that there are some rules of course We promote democracy. It's clear But we promote more than democracy may be human rights And it's very important in all the kind of system that we have maybe in the world To be able to discuss with the leaders about the human rights and the protection of the world because it's not Due to the fact that you don't have a democratic system that it's possible to organize violations of all the human rights Of course, it's maybe a tendency if you don't have a democratic system But I don't want to make a separation But it's very important to continue to discuss about human rights dignity of the individuals Also, when you discuss with country without a real democratic system And that's very important at the worldwide level and I will say in the last discussions that we have had with the African union It was one of the components to say it's not to come with lessons to give It's maybe to share a common value The full respect for human beings and is it possible to say you have different systems? Maybe But you need to pay attention to that and Just to give a last example, you know that at the European level but more the de you we have had the Istanbul Convention Istanbul Convention To do a lot of things and I fully understand that it's possible to have a different conception of the family And we have in Europe different conception of the family But violence against women or children Is a crime And so if you don't want to ratify the Istanbul Convention, we have said at the European level We will organize our own process About the crimes against women and children and that it's possible to explain also In many countries in the world Where they don't have a democracy But it's not because you don't have a democracy that is normal to have violence against women or children Some some elements and some rights are not to be negotiated You say they are fixed and ought to be respected and upheld