 Hi, I'm Marianne Sasaki. You're watching Life in the Law and Think Tech Hawaii. We discuss issues in the law, current events, and historical events. Today we're so lucky to have eminent criminal attorney, Victor Bakke, with me. Welcome, Victor. I'm so glad you're here. And Victor's going to tell us a little bit about what practicing criminal law is like, and then we're going to talk about the big, big case that's been in the news for months and months and months since I've been here, which is the Kaloha case. Kaloha case. Okay, so welcome. Thank you for having me. Welcome to the show. Thank you for coming. Where should we start? So are you from, are you local? I'm originally from Seattle, but I've been here 30 years now. Okay. So I've been here longer than any place else, so I guess you could say. And I did my research, and I saw that you went to Bolt Law School, yeah? Yes. I went to University of Washington for undergrad, and then University of California, Berkeley, also known as Bolt Hall, for law school. And you clerked at the Supreme Court as well of Hawaii, yeah? Correct. While I was in law school, I served as a judicial extern for Chief Judge David Ezra, who is now retired from the District of Hawaii, but he was a pretty high-powered judge here, and then I also clerked for the Supreme Court of Hawaii before starting a career at the city prosecutor's office. Okay, did you always know you wanted to be a criminal lawyer? Yes. Really? Yeah. Even before law school? Well, I wanted to be a doctor first, you know, like most lawyers, and then when I decided not to do that, I decided to go to law school, and then from then on, though, it was pretty much always criminal law. Because criminal is, you know, I'm a business lawyer, and it's so far from my practice, and I've on several occasions been the last person in the office, and so I've had to go down and do an arraignment or something, and it's just a whole different world for me. I mean, it's a whole different set of rules, and it's a different way of practicing law. Well, the thing that always intrigued me about the criminal law is it's pure law. It really is the essence of society. I mean, it's the rule of law. It's what keeps everything together. It's what allows people like you to practice business law, because you need to have that history that we have. I mean, it's almost a historical degree when you're going through law school. You're learning law, but you really have to learn the history, and how did we get here? How did we end up with a right to a jury trial? How did we end up with proof beyond a reasonable doubt? Just things like that, innocent until proven guilty. All those type of concepts that people tend to take for granted. It's fascinating in a lot of different ways. So you see it working every day. I very rarely burden of proof, very rarely comes across my desk. You're the kind of lawyer that when I tell people I'm a lawyer, they think of you. They think of the criminal lawyer. That's what they see on TV, and that's what they think of as a lawyer. So really, I wanted to discuss this fascinating case with the police chief. And it's been going on. I've only been here for a year and a half, but I think it's been going on since I've been here. I know it's been going on for a very long time. So could you give us a little background about how did this begin, and where are we going, and where it is now? Because I know that there's a new federal civil case filed against the chief, yeah? Correct. In a nutshell, the chief of police is married to one of the high-ranking deputy prosecuting attorneys, a woman that I used to work with named Kathy K. Aloha. And she's been under a cloud of suspicion for some irregular activity, let's say, within the prosecutor's office. And then there was also some suspicion cast on her about some of her business dealings with family members when she was working as a private attorney. And that ended up working its way through the court system, and she actually was awarded a judgment in her favor for that. But the biggest problem they had in that case was at some point she accused her uncle, who was the person that was suing her, and she was countersuing, she accused that uncle of stealing her mailbox. And now it's turning out that that whole thing was completely faked. Fabricated, huh? It was completely fabricated. And she used her connections with the police department to get this elite group of officers that answer only to the chief. And the first thing that's funny about that is almost nobody knew that this special division even existed. It was almost kind of like the secret... That's like Stasi or something. It was like the Gestapo, it was like the chief's secret police. And so, you know... There's no provision in the law made for it, nobody knew. They just... How did they... How did they get them... Gather them together? What... They swear them to secrecy? I mean, how did they do it? Well, that's what it looks like. And one of them now has broken ranks and has pled guilty to fraud and to basically framing this uncle. Right. And so, that's now... Since that just came down last week, now the chief has been given a target letter which means he's being requested to testify before the grand jury, but he's also being warned that he is also a suspect in all of this and so that he should be careful when testifying because he may incriminate himself. Wow. That's kind of amazing. It's kind of amazing just that the chief of police and somebody from the prosecutor's office would be... I guess, you know, I mean, they show that kind of involvement on TV, but you know, you have to be extra careful, I think, if you want to do something like that. But it doesn't sound like these two are extra careful at all. No. And you say TV. This almost reads like a made-for-TV script because some of it just seems so ridiculous and unnecessary. I know. It's very dramatic. That's the thing that caught my attention because I don't usually... I watch political news. I'm a political news junkie, so I don't usually watch the local news. But when I do watch the local news, it really is such a... Each turn of events is so dramatic and it's silly and dramatic, you know what I mean? It's not like big stakes, you know? It's not murders, it's not drugs, it's nothing like that. It's like a family dispute over money. But what's happened is it's taken over a year for this investigation to be coming forth with. And it really started, in part, with the chief because what happened was during the trial, they actually tried the uncle in federal court with a criminal offense for stealing the mailbox. And the chief actually blurted out information during his testimony that he was specifically told not to say. Really? It was in federal court because it was the mail? What? It was in federal court because it was a theft of a mailbox. Amazing. Okay. So it was a federal offense and the uncle was appointed a public defender. But during that trial, the chief engaged in misconduct and the judge threw the case out. And that's what triggered then the investigation because they started realizing that this evidence wasn't really credible. And so when it's coming from police officers, there's a bigger problem. If you have a regular witness and they're not credible, the case just gets dismissed. But when the police officers are found... You need an investigation. You need an investigation. And there's just been a long series. This chief came into power, which we shouldn't even say that we're like power. They think it's something, it's some huge political thing. But once he became acting chief, he's had nothing but problems. There's been nothing but arrest after arrest, after indictment, after civil lawsuit. I personally filed a lawsuit against the chief in which the city awarded me $4.7 million. Really? The largest... Well, not me personally, but on behalf of my clients. That was the largest single settlement against the Honolulu Police Department in state history. Wow. So... So it sounds like a field day for lawyers, actually. It actually is right now. But to their credit, they are not lying down. They are firing back, filing all of their own lawsuits. So now the city's running up a couple million dollars again in bills to defend them. They're saying that they're suing the Ethics Commission. They're saying that they're being targeted. For no reason by the Ethics Commission. Their names are being dragged through the mud. And I pointed out in several interviews that it's very ironic to hear those kinds of accusations coming from a police chief and the prosecutor who all they do all day long is file accusation against people. They throw people in jail. They don't give them a chance to clear their names. But when it happens to the chief and his wife, suddenly it's like, oh, this is a horrible system. You've spoken like a true criminal attorney. I have to say, Victor, that's a very... I wouldn't... Yeah. No, I'll say this. I mean, personally, I spent seven and a half years in the prosecutors here. So I'm not a bleeding heart liberal, you know, hide-behind-the-constitution type of defense attorney. But I can see the whole thing. I've seen the inner workings of the prosecutor's office. I've seen the inner workings of the police department. And I've been in prison, which is why I'm wearing this aloha shirt today. I just came from the federal detention center visiting the court. Yes. We know that you look very handsome, but had you not been to prison, you would have worn a suit and tie. I'd been in court, yes. If he had been before you, right. Exactly. But no reason to suit and tie here. No, but I dealt with the probation system. I dealt with the parole system, the prison. And, you know, the only way you can truly be at the top of the game is to have been on the inside of all those organizations, because the criminal justice system depends on a lot of moving parts. And if any of those moving parts fail, then the system fails, including the judiciary. So like I said, I've worked with the judiciary. I know what it's like. I haven't been a judge, but I've worked by side of Ben the clerk for the judge. So, and you can really see, whether it's a victim that is harmed by the prosecutors not prevailing a case in a case, it's just you need everything to work. And if it doesn't, then people actually get hurt. In the civil world, as you know, it's all about money. You can always make money. How do you make whole people whole? You make them with money. But how do you give back somebody 20 years of their life? How do you give them back their reputations? And that's where... Well, those, yes, those are certainly very weighty matters when you're considering, you know, that you're doing, you're like a surgeon, right? You hold people's lives in your hand. And you... You have to get it right. That's the bottom line. And... But you need everybody to do that. And you need people to believe in the system. So when you have the chief of police and a high-ranking prosecutor coming under this kind of suspicion, and they just seem to keep blowing it off, blowing it off, not taking any responsibility for anything, erodes the confidence, and that's another problem in terms of... It did for me. You know, I said this to my husband. My husband's local. He's from Kailua. I said to him, you know, this makes Honolulu seem like a 20s gangster movie. Not like 20s gangsters, but like a 20s gangster movie. It's like almost like a movie, like, you know, because it's so dramatic and event after event and so intertwined, the husband and wife and, you know, being in the prosecutor's office and the chief of police. And it has also a little bit of a small town vibe, doesn't it? Or is it me? No. It is a very small town vibe. I mean, I've always said about Honolulu. But Honolulu isn't. Are you thinking this? It's not. There's 700,000 people in this county. Yeah, I think it's a big city. But this has a very... But political-wise, I mean, you know, I've never been any place where I can walk down the street like I can here and see the prosecutor, see one of the federal judges, and they'll say hello to you. You know, no security, no running around. Right. You know. I agree. I agree. You have access to people here like you just never would. I mean, you don't drive on the mainland and see people waving signs and actually have, you know, Kirk Caldwell, the mayor, with a beautiful lay on the corner and them waving at you. Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. And then it gives you that connection with these people. But at the same time, that small town feel can breed corruption real quick. And the police department's been under suspicion for a lot of stuff for a long time, which is really unfortunate. But they're responsible for the way things are handled. So, let me ask you, so why wouldn't the chief of the prosecutor's office, wouldn't they put somebody even on paid suspension or suspend them or...? That is a very good question. And it's one that hasn't been answered yet because it's expected that the prosecutor Keith Connoisseur may at some point be a target of this corruption scandal as well. For example, I was personally involved in... We had a huge case here before you got here. Let me stop you. I'd love to hear about your case. We're going to take a quick break and then we'll talk about your huge case, which I'm dying to hear about. Aloha, Howard Wigg. I am the proud host of Code Green, Think Tech-Away-ee. I appear every other Monday at three in the afternoon. Do not tune in in the morning. My topic is energy efficiency. It sounds dry as heck, but it's not. We're paying five billion dollars a year for imported oil. My job is to shave that, shave that, shave that down in homes and buildings while delivering better comfort, better light, better air conditioning, better everything. If you're interested in your future, you'd better tune in to me, three o'clock every other Monday Code Green Aloha, and thank you very much. Hi. You're watching Marianne Sasaki and Life in the Law on Wednesdays between 1.00 and 1.30 on Think Tech-Away-ee. We're lucky today to have Victor Bakke. We're talking about the Kaloha case. I don't know why I can't say that the issue of the police chief and corruption going on in the police force and in the prosecutor's office. Tell me about this big case you had that you thought would be interesting that we went to break right before winter break you mentioned. You were asking about the prosecutor, and how has the prosecutor come into play in all this? Right. Why wouldn't he sanction- Well, because they've worked very closely together on some other big cases, which I was starting to mention about the largest gambling case that we had here in history, where they shut down all these game rooms that were operating in broad daylight had been approved for operation by the Likert Commission, and Keith Kahnashiro decided on his own that these were illegal. But he couldn't prove it under the law, so they went through it. It's a long story. But at the end of the day, they presented indictments, the largest, I guess, in state history, and then within a very short time myself and several other lawyers were able to uncover that the grand jury proceeding had been made up almost completely of fabricated testimony, improper evidence, and the judge threw the case out, and Kathy Kalo had disappeared. She was subpoenaed as a witness to testify for it. She wasn't ordered held accountable for anything. The other prosecutor that was involved, he left the office immediately thereafter. And then for two years we heard nothing, and then Keith Kahnashiro, the prosecutor, tries to re-indict, gives the case right back to Kathy Kalo-Hot, and that time we went right back in, made the same arguments, basically, and the second judge threw it out and said, I believe something to the effect of, like, at the very best case this was complete incompetence and at the worst it was absolutely fraud. Some nefarious. Yeah. I'm awestruck that there are no consequences, although I suppose, you know what, there's lots of great crimes and no consequences. But this is such a transparent issue. I mean, people can see what's going on, and isn't anybody demanding justice, or somebody must be infuriated. Well, the police commission is supposed to be watching the chief, and they've come under great criticism, and in my opinion, rightfully so. They did nothing. They knew that all this is going on, and they just said, well, we don't know anything about this. But you ask any person on the street, they're like, oh, my God, what's up with the truth of police? The way is a land of relationships, right? When I first came here, people were saying it's all about relationships. And I mean, I knew that in New York, it was a little like that, but New York is very much a meritocracy. You know, you sort of get ahead, you know, everybody comes there and we. But this is sort of the dark side of that this is a state based upon relationships, a culture based upon relationships, because it seems like there actually are relationships where there shouldn't be any relationships. So is there a way to go outside even the police commission? I mean, can a special prosecutor be appointed or somebody? That's really where we're at right now. The feds have come in. The federal government has come in. They brought a prosecutor in from San Diego. So that's usually the step in police corruption cases, or like when you see these police shootings, okay? They can't trust the local community, so they bring in the Department of Justice. Right, right. So we're at that point right now. And we have been for over a year. The police commission was so one-sided backing up the police, they refused to even acknowledge that there was even a grand jury investigation going on. So now, and the problem is the police commission is appointed in large part by the mayor. So that reflects poorly on the mayor. So to keep himself looking good, he's now put two new appointees, a former lawyer and former prosecutor, I believe she was, and a former Supreme Court justice and circuit court judge, to come in and be a little more law enforcement with a little more legal experience rather than just a bunch of people saying... That's like closing the door after the horse's cut out. I mean, it's a little bit, you know... Oh, it's very self-serving. It's very self-serving. Those people should have been on there from day one. Right, right, right. I mean, the police commission here really has no teeth at all, and the teeth that they do have, they don't use. So how do we clean things up? What do we do? Well, we wait for the grand jury indictment to come down, and the federal government will sweep pretty heavily. They've already gotten one conviction out of this, and I think there's going to be several more. Really? Yeah. Really? Of the major players, do you think? Of the major players. I think Kathy Kale... It all seems to center around Kathy Kale-Loha, and, you know, the chief... Did you work with her when you worked there? I worked with her for several years, yeah. Oh, okay. So you know her personally also? Yes. So it centers on her that, I guess, you know, one reason, you know, I'm very, very, very liberal, and I got an offer from the DA's office, and I didn't... I wasn't that interested in criminal law, but I also was very trepidatious about working for the state, because you have so much power when you work for the state, you know. I mean, I don't mean the state like is in Hawaii. I mean, the government. And you know, it's really amazing how you sort of isolated and you really think you can do anything, and you can have a secret police force, and you can manipulate facts, and it's just stunning. And when abused, when that power is abused, it's just devastating. I mean, it's a real front to the citizenry, I think. Well, you know, I spent almost ten years in government work, and one of the problems there is, you don't have the invisible hand of the market motivating people. So people aren't there for the money, they're there for the stability, and the paycheck, and some of them enjoy their work, other it's very tedious, clerical type work. But the problem, in my opinion, that you really run into is you have these people that their whole lifestyle is dependent, especially in Hawaii. They're paycheck to paycheck, they need those jobs. So when their supervisors lean on them and say, this is the way something's going to be done, it's very difficult for them to speak up. They don't really have any leverage, and they go along with it. And hand in hand with that goes the supervisor, because the supervisor is not there as part of a private business trying to get that huge bonus. What they tend to do is they tend to be more into the power aspect of it. Right. Well, I think I always thought that the police attracted people who like to exert a certain amount of power over others, and it has to be the same with the prosecutor's office. Although, I mean, it's harder to see, but you can pick and choose, and you can really make quite an impact by the whiteness of your ability to choose. And I'm sure people will say exactly the same thing about private practice and everything. You've got a bunch of people that just are money hungry, and they'll cheat their customers and they'll do whatever. But like I said, there's that invisible hand of the market that if you act that way too long or too often, hopefully your company will fail, because you're cheating customers, you're abusing people, things like that. But when you're the government, you don't have that buffer. You can go on. It's very difficult to challenge. That's why even in these recent police shootings, and my brother's actually a retired police officer who was shot once on duty, but nowadays you start to really get a different story sometimes of things with these body cams and video cameras and everything. And it goes both ways. Sometimes they show the cops are completely lying, and other times they show that the victims and their family are completely lying. Do you support that as a criminal lawyer? Do you support body cams? Oh, absolutely. I think the body cams and any cams, cameras, recording devices, anything that they can use to get the best evidence is what it's about. Right. You know, there's an example. This is a classic example of problems with HPD here. They treat prostitution here as a petty misdemeanor. Okay. Okay. And because of that, the person cannot get a trial by a jury. It has to just be settled by a judge. So because they know it's never going to go in front of a jury, they never record the conversations between their decoy officers and the John, so to speak, that are soliciting it. And why wouldn't they do that? Why wouldn't they do that? Because they know that they're lying and cheating and tricking these people in the game. Right. They can make it up. Exactly. And it's just going to be a judge saying, well, the police officer says this and the poor other person says this. It makes absolutely no reason when the actual crime is the words exchanged. Right. Right. Because people don't actually have sex. They make an agreement to have sex. Right. So why wouldn't you record that? Right. Right. And they refuse to do it. That's fascinating. Right. And if they had to go before a jury, they would record it because a jury would demand to say, well, if you're saying this guy's guilty because he said things, why didn't you record it? Right. Why should I believe you over somebody else? Right. Right. But like you're right, in the bench trial setting, there's a lot of implicit power there in the respect of the implicit power and the institution. That's fascinating. Somebody should organize prostitutes for civil rights. Civil rights. Actually, I know somebody that's doing that actually, but I mean, that's a civil rights issue. There's, well, prostitution has been a long problem, but it's also been the source of a lot of accusations and misconduct by the police department. Anyone in this town can drive down Capulani Boulevard or anywhere down Waikiki and see these stores that have black windows that just have a sign that says open. Right. Right. Okay? Everybody knows what's going on in there, but it's selective enforcement, and that's why you always, every so often, they sweep the place out and you get this allegation of somebody taking bribes from the mamasans or the girls or whatever, and it's a very small town. Right. If they really wanted to crack down on these morals offenses, for example, they could, but people get paid off and things get done on the side, and it's gone on that way forever. And I think that's why this particular grand jury investigation that's being done by the federal government is taking so long, simply because every time they get onto one, you know, one idea of wrongdoing, it uncovers three others. It's rich. It's so rich. It's so awesome. They just keep, they have more than they have to bargain for. Right. There must be like, it's, you know, what is going on over there? Like, isolated from the, you know, well, actually, but the FBI, the prosecutor would be from the state. I mean, the federal prosecutor is located in the state. I'm thinking like they're coming from Washington. No, the federal prosecutor that's doing this investigation is out of San Diego. Right. Oh, that's what I thought. So they must really be like, you know, these people are on an island far away. Nobody thinks, everybody thinks they can do whatever they want. Nobody's watching. I mean, I kind of feel that way sometimes, you know, it must be wild for them. It must be, you know, I can just imagine their conversations. Yeah. It's, you know, it's, we're not the only jurisdiction with these kind of problems. Oh no, not at all. So not at all, but. But there is a sense of security that, you know, we are isolated and we do have our own ways. And, you know, there is a little bit of that, I think, you know, but certain persons have that as well. I think that's right. But, but at this time, you know, to be fair to everyone, this is the process. And I always tell my clients, you know, justice is a process. It's not a verdict. Okay. Because anytime there's a verdict in a trial, one side thinks they didn't get justice. Right. There's a murder case and the guy gets acquitted. The family thinks, well, he murdered my brother and got away with it. Right. And if the guy gets convicted, the other, that person's family think, oh, he was innocent and he was wrongfully convicted. Right. So justice is the process, not the verdict. And that's where we're still are with these guys, is in the process. Right, the process. But the process, though, alone should be enough for these two people to step back. And I've called for them along, I believe, with Senator Esparro, for these two individuals to step down and let the investigation. Well, did the police chief step down for a month? No, he just stepped down once he was notified that he's a possible subject of investigation. A restricted duty. And he's on restricted duty for 30 days. Well, what happens is whenever officers are involved in some type of misconduct, like just a simple shooting, okay, they'll be, they'll be restricted of police powers. That's ropa, you'll see the thing. Right. But in his case, because he's the chief, he actually was removed completely. Oh, okay. Hmm. Well, this is fascinating. I can talk about this all day, all night, because it's just so, it's so rich, as you said, full of issues, full of people acting like people, you know, and, you know, like a drama. And so I'm so happy you joined us today. But I do just want to make clear that right now, the KLOAs have not been charged with anything. Okay. There's just simply an investigation going on. And so, you know, they live by the same rules as the rest of us do. Right. We should, innocent until proven guilty. Yeah, we should, yes. That's a very good disclaimer, and I'm glad you said it. So thank you, Victor Bakke. If you're a criminal lawyer, this is your man. This guy's all over the place. And thank you for coming by today. Thank you for watching Life in the Law. I'm Mary Ann Sasaki. Until next time.