 Thank you all for coming, for filling the room, for my talk on JavaScript, hot takes for a hot trend. I'm gonna give you perspective on what I've seen in the past and what I see for the future of Drupal as a project, as a piece of software that's used by hundreds of thousands of people around the world in the context of a changing way that we do web development. For those of you who don't know me, nice to meet you, I'm Josh. I'm the co-founder and chief strategy officer at Pantheon. I discovered Drupal as part of an ultimately failed effort to take over the government. I was user like 3,313 and through that I met Zach and through Zach met Matt Cheney and we founded a digital agency in San Francisco in 2006 called Chapter Three, still going strong. They're doing great work in this space. They're doing their own thing, but then we turned a lot of experience we had with that agency into Pantheon, starting in 2010, essentially figuring out how to turn the work that we would do to start every project so that you could have lots of developers work well together, launch a site, have it scale, keep launching changes after it was live, like that was work that we could turn into a product and we did. That's what Pantheon is at its core, a bunch more things on it now, but that's the bones. And I've been on this for a while, right? We had a, I think I went back in research, there was a meetup in Europe that predated this, but we had the first US Drupal meetup on the topic of headless Drupal in our office in San Francisco in 2014. And I presented along with Amitai, amazing presenter. I live in his shadow from Gizra at Drupalcon LA on the topic of headless Drupal and have been in and around this space for quite a while, right? And we started down the road of really building a product to support this use case in late in 2019. And you can see it in the booth demo now. We would have probably been on the market with that a year or so ago if the pandemic caused us to pull back on a lot of things and slow some stuff down. So we started in 2019 and then we kind of like paused a few different things and we picked it back up towards the end of 2020. And we've been working on this for quite a while and we're really proud of what we've built, but we've also been surveying the market landscape. And that's, I'm not here to sell you pantheon. I'm here to talk about what's going on in the industry. So I have a few hot takes. Let's start with hot take number one. Drupal is enterprise software and our ongoing success as a project depends on being adopted as such. I don't think this is super controversial, but I think there is still some reluctance in some areas to really embrace this, which I would just encourage people to get comfortable with because it is, the choices made by the core project are inexorably moving it in this direction. And I think it's a good role, as I'll get to later with one of my other hot takes, for Drupal to play. And something we should all celebrate rather than having anxiety about. Let's be honest, Drupal peaked in 2016 by volume. The Drupal 7 End of Life thing is gonna have a real effect on how many people in the world use Drupal because Drupal 7 was the last version of Drupal that really was an appropriate piece of software for a small organization to use. And even then it was kind of pushing it. Drupal 7 is pretty complicated. It's a lot of work to implement. It takes a fair amount of development time. If you are yourself a Drupalist and you're working for a hobby project, obviously you can use Drupal for anything and everything and I'm not saying you shouldn't. But for most people out there in the world, they're not building themselves their own website. They're getting some professional to do it for them. And when they have a small budget and modest needs, Drupal 7 was like maybe still like a good solution in some cases, but Drupal 8 and beyond, it's not. And I would predict that over the course of the next year or two, a lot of these Drupal 7 sites will still be running Drupal 7 because they'll just keep trucking along just like there are still sites running Drupal 6. And a lot of them will not move to Drupal 10 because it does not make rational sense for the proprietors of those sites to do that. They'll find a different solution. And the rest of that chart, and this is from Drupal.org, is all made up of the different versions of Drupal 8, Drupal 9, and some Drupal 10. And there's people that are lagging in there and not everyone in that second kind of messy color chart is an enterprise customer. But by volume, or sorry, by composition, that upper bound of people who've made the leap to composer-based Drupal, symphony-based Drupal, and all these other things, they are much more likely to be enterprise or enterprise adjacent. And that is where this project is gonna find its interest and energy and make its impact going forward. And so first hot take is that we should embrace that. Because you either, this is like my AI image of like sad Drupal 7, it's like, Drupal 7 was such a heroic piece of software for its time and place. And you give it its due, right? It came out almost 15 years ago. And it did so many things, and there was so much stuff that got built around it that was really, really powerful. But it's one of those things where like you either die a hero or you live long enough to become the thing that now everyone winces when they have to look at. And so I think we need to be like, I'm just, I actually didn't get a chance to watch the Drees note live. I'm gonna watch it on YouTube afterwards. But like I think, as Drees said, we have to be able to let this go, right? That's important for the community to move forward is you have to let go of some of this legacy. And I would argue that there's a fancy, fancy technical future that's shiny and bright and full of promise that is the Drupal of tomorrow that is situated in an exciting and vibrant and fast moving technology ecosystem that's just really oriented around larger scale organizations that have more complex needs, right? We ambitious digital experiences like that really is a true statement. So that's to hot take number one. Now, hot take number two. If we accept that the future of Drupal is as a piece of enterprise software, it is also undeniably true that the future of enterprise CMS as a broad category is going to increasingly be a headless one. This is not a fact today. It's not like I'm saying it's the future. But the trend line here is really clear and I don't think it's going to reverse. So, you know, we had IDC, it's the analyst firm, right? But they're good at this. They talked to hundreds and thousands of companies and they assess where things are going in the market and they have like pretty good quantitative data on stuff like this. So like ballpark numbers, the market for decoupled solutions and have the CMS is already 400 million and is growing fast. It's growing faster than Drupal and WordPress combined, to be honest. And it's still small, right? It's still like single-digit percentages of websites but the trend line on that number is advancing rapidly. You know, if you look at the number of live sites that are on the internet, in May 2023, Next.js officially powered more websites than Drupal for the first time ever and that gap is only gonna grow. And you know, it's not totally a fair comparison because like Next.js is not exclusively enterprise software. It's you can build a quick little static site with it and that's one of the reasons it's growing so fast. But increasingly, more complex organizations that have more complex needs have more ambition on their digital experiences. They want to use one of these modern front end frameworks to deliver the actual experience, the actual end user. And it's for a variety of reasons but the most important one is it's how you deliver the best user experience. These frameworks and these tool chains allow you to give people experiences via the web particularly the mobile web that rival the experience of a native software application. Right, like when I am scrolling through the tweets and I click a link and it loads like that and it feels responsive and it's like, did I leave the app? I mean, I know it's not Twitter anymore but it still feels like I'm in an app versus when you click a link and you wait five seconds and then a thing like ads are popping around. Like you know when you're having a good mobile way experience and when you're having a bad one. And for anybody who cares about their website doing something like having a real impact that good mobile experience is becoming non-negotiable. Because more than 50% of the web browsing done in the United States now is on mobile devices. Increasingly people are mobile only if not mobile first in terms of how they engage with stuff and if you zoom out beyond just the US that trend is like the US is actually lagging the rest of the world in that trend. So the quality of the user experience is paramount to anyone that wants their website to actually have a meaningful impact and the quality of the user experience is being built with these modern tool chains. It's not being built with twig templates. I wanna give a deference to the masters of Drupal theming that still exists in the world. I bow down to your expertise. You can get there with twig templates and a Drupal theme. It's just an awful lot of work and not that many people know how to do it. And every year, hundreds of thousands of new web developers, maybe hundreds of thousands, I don't have a good stamina. A lot of new people get into web development and they do it based on the tool chain on the left, not the tools on the right. So there's another reason why people are embracing this. It's the wrong reason to get forced into decoupling your site because of a talent shortage. But if you think about it kind of organizationally, it is a fact that you're going to need to hire web development talent with the skills that it has. And that is increasingly not in tools like Drupal or other traditional CMSs. So the future of Drupal is headless. Not exclusively, right? But it's going to increasingly be a required part of how we present the value of Drupal and how we talk about it in the context of the other technologies that are there. Because again, once you're moving into that notion of enterprise software, it's not, you have to draw a bigger map around all the pieces of technology that are in play. It's not just a website. You're not just doing some brochureware, right? You're probably connecting with business systems. You're integrating with CRM. You're handling the flow of some broader thing that touches many other tools. And Drupal is actually really good at that, right? That's something that I think is a strength of Drupal that's one of the reasons why it makes sense for us to be enterprise software. We're actually, we got some muscle there. But when it comes to actually delivering the end user experience, I just took a car ride in, shared a ride from the airport with one of our agency partners. And he was relating to me that they've built the whole process and tool chain that basically that's their front-end developers just worked through Storybook. They don't actually have to do almost anything in Drupal. And that's how they're not building just headless stuff. They've just figured out a sort of theming tool chain that lets those people use the tools that they wanna use, and it's working for them. But he said like, hey, I was talking with my senior front-end developer, and it's like, if you told me I had to go back to just like raw Drupal themings, I would quit. I'd just go find a different job, because I'm good at this, and I wanna do work that makes me happy. So, yeah, the old Sleepy Hollow headless horseman is gone, the cyberpunk Chinatown Sleepy Hollow is here, and we should just embrace this future. Hot take number three. The current tools in the headless CMS space are inadequate. That trend of adoption is real, and it's growing, but you can clearly and easily see that the current tools in this space are not the final form, right? There's so many gaps. There are so many problems. This stuff is still new, and there are a lot of challenges that come along with trying to move in this direction, and I think if we can be smart about those, both in terms of how we think about shepherding Drupal as a project itself, and also how we position Drupal as a solution to potential users of that solution, we can actually, there's some opportunity here. So, one, how many of y'all have used Contentful? So, that's great. Contentful's like the number one top dog in headless CMS. I think they still have a free trial. I would free trial it, because it is like SaaS, and you can get it really easily and set it up, and that's nice, and the design system that they put in place for their admin UI is better than what Drupal 7 looks like out of the box, but once we actually go into an implementation of Contentful, it feels like Drupal 7, because you're talking nested fields, and nested fields, and nested fields, and that rolling out to an API that a front-end developer can like, but the front-end developers don't run the world. The people who actually need to be in partnership with folks who are trying to get the web experiences to deliver some kind of outcome or lift or impact. The people who are in the back end of the system trying to run campaigns, if one of the problems with that old Drupal 7 world is like oftentimes you'd exhaust yourself with just like getting the front-facing part of the website looking good, you didn't have time to really work on the back end too much or at all, and then like the civilians who get brought in to try to run Drupal fail. It's like, and like, it's not because they're dumb, like an unconsidered implementation of a Drupal 7 admin area, even like modern Drupal admin areas a bit better, but it's still not great, it's super complicated, it's hard for people to use, and then you get into a situation where like, hey, if I make a mistake here, it's gonna make my website look broken, now I'm really afraid to use this tool. Well, hey, you know what we need to do? We need to get the developer back in here, and then they'll operate the CMS for us, right? And so like you still have this role of like, you know where you're taking your most precious technical talent off of the most important work they could be doing, which is actually building better experiences for the end users, because they're the only ones that can sit in front of this super powerful admin interface and not mess it up. And Contentful has that problem in spades. People go in and they try to solve it by, they have a system, because it's SaaS, right, it's not open source, but they have a mechanism where you can like, ship your own modifications to the admin side of things, which you know, makes sense, but I've talked with some people that are really happy with this, and it's because they have a team of like three or four web producers that are basically repurposed devs who are now CMS operators, and they like take, you know, people send them a Google doc, and they figure out how to copy and paste it into all the places in the admin for it to work. And I guess if you have those resources and that kind of speed of movement works for you, then that can work. But there's a lot of people who tried to solve that by making Contentful more usable, and like the quote that I've heard, you know, I'm gonna paraphrase it, is yeah, two years into this Contentful implementation, and now I realize that I am a CMS vendor with a client base of one, and that's not where I started out wanting to be. And so I think the key takeaway here is that the most widely adopted, most enterprise-grade, headless CMS SaaS tool out there right now is clearly, you know, not the solution that's gonna work for the whole market. It has all these drawbacks. Drupal can beat this. The other thing that's challenging about this is the, you know, I know like Kyle Matthews, who started Gatsby was a friend of mine, and him and Sam, in the early days when they were talking about this, I can see the vision and how it appeals to developers that we're gonna break down all the Legos. We're gonna decompose everything, and we're gonna be able to just pick up what we need and put it together in the right way, and stuff, everything's becoming modular. And like, it's kind of like a cyclical thing in the industry. You go through areas of bundling and unbundling, and bundling and unbundling, and centralization and decentralization. And I think we're right now at a point of, I don't know if it's peak, but it feels like it's near peak unbundling, and it clearly doesn't work. It's too complicated for people to implement, so the headless CMSs are too complicated to operate, and actually building something that can deliver an experience to a visitor involves stitching together too many providers with too much custom glue. This is like a lot of work to set up. It takes time, that costs money, it creates risk. Like one of the big things in the first wave where I think a lot of, maybe some people, actually, let's do a show of hands. Show of hands. Who tried to do a decoupled project with Drupal, and kind of got burned by it, at least in some way? I think a lot of that is, I've talked with people where they went in, and they did this, and even if the project succeeded on its merits initially, like, yeah, we got a headless Drupal thing, we got our super awesome front end, we're also feeding data into other things with the API, it's doing the stuff we needed to do, it's great. And then what happened was the person that did all this integration work over here found another job. And then it stayed great for a little while, and then it wasn't great, and it was now an unstable platform. And that instability is something that, like if we think about really the sort of the broader adoption of this headless stuff in the enterprise, I believe that that's gonna get solved, but that problem of instability and uncertainty and how to stick these things together is a major barrier to more of the market, more successfully adopting these things. So in that, there's some opportunity, right? If we can start to provide a little bit more of, here's a recipe that we know works. Here's a way that we can do things in common, like here's a way that we can have some open source components that help everyone do this the same way together, and then all of a sudden, your projects are getting started faster, you're getting to the interesting parts quicker, and also if you need to bring someone else into the project, there's a chance you can find someone else that's done this the same way before. Or at a minimum, there's documentation in a community, and it wasn't just an internal project that maybe there's one wiki page about it that they wrote before they went to travel the world or walk the Appalachian Trail or whatever they did. All right, number four, hot take. The web needs a good, open source, headless CMS. I keep doing research every quarter, every six months to see if there's a new open source project that's starting up to meet this need, and so far there isn't really, or not one that's taken, that's gotten traction, that's actually grown. And I think, and subtitle, I think Drupal, this could be a great role for Drupal to play in the future. But it doesn't need to be Drupal, like I just think it's really important that there's a very good open source headless CMS for a variety of reasons that I'll now explain. So first of all, you have, I guess let me do another show of hands. How many of y'all have spun up like a free trial of some new fangled modern website tool or whether that's like Netlify, Vercell, Sanity, Forestry, all these tools that are kind of out there in this new generation? How many of you have used a free trial of one of these in the past three years? Yeah, okay, that makes sense, right? There's a whole technology ecosystem that was funded by venture capitalists, some of whom I know, who funded us too, that have subsidized a massive kind of adoption wave through free tools and low cost products. And they were doing that because they wanted to get broad adoption, it makes sense, like this is what you do, you make it kind of free, get a lot of people to adopt it, and then you figure out the business a little bit later on. Doing that is often dependent on being able to continue to finance the free tools buffet while the business gets figured out. The financing for the free tools buffet is over. Companies are not gonna be able to raise money for the foreseeable future to continue to underwrite freemium adoption models. They're gonna need to be able to, they're only gonna need to be able to invest in things that are actually in return profits. Capitalism is back, baby, I'm sorry. But what this means for the industry is that people who built stuff on top of those free or extremely low cost tools that are proprietary SaaS tools are gonna find that the bricks that they laid their foundation with are, if not gonna crumble, they're gonna change shape. Because if you picked a scrappy up and coming headless SaaS CMS that was super awesome, like, I don't think this is likely to happen to Strapi, but let's just use Strapi as an example. I think their stuff is among the best. It's really cool, they've done a very tasteful job. Well, they can get bought by Oracle, like tomorrow. And like, because they're still, they're still trying to figure out how to build a market around their stuff that really works, they don't have that yet. Oracle could just be like, yoink, we like your technology. But then Oracle famously does this, like, oh, and we have some, we have a different vision for how this is gonna play out and how we're gonna price this stuff. And maybe we're gonna integrate it with this other thing over here. And those assumptions around how the technology is gonna be available to customers can change, right? Through a merger and acquisition, also change, some of these companies are just gonna go out of business because they didn't get to critical mass. And they're gonna kinda have to, their customers are gonna be left in the lurch. And I would predict that in the coming year or two or three, as more of this happens and more people who are like, I think more and more technology decision makers are gonna become reacquainted with one of the big values of open source, which is the lack of vendor lock-in. If we want this whole thing around the web to be true and continue forward, like, not everybody's gonna use open source. Like, that's never gonna be true. And not everybody should. Like, for some people, this approach is actually the better decision. But the value of vendor lock-in, people kinda, it's not so present when like the tools are free and you can jump to another one if you like and you find out later on that if you don't own, if you built on rented land, then your house might not be as stable as you thought it was. The last thing I'll say on this also is that we're seeing a shift from that first wave of, I would say, a lot of technology-driven interest in this new way of building that kinda really was led, like the front-end developers led the charge. And a lot of cool things got built. But also a lot of things got built that didn't have the clearest rationale other than we're gonna try the new thing. And it's not wrong to try the new thing, but the context and where and when you choose to go try a new thing, you need to be careful about, right? That's not something you would put the flagship on. What we're seeing now is a rise in people choosing to build things this way, again, because there's a really clear outcome that they have in mind. And that shift will be, it's gonna be healthy for the overall internet. Like, let me give you one really tried example, but it's true. So another mega trend is the death of the cookie. Y'all heard about this? Death of the cookie, show of hands? Okay, we're just, so you know. Google's finally gonna do it. In January of next year, 1% of Chrome users will experience breakage as it no longer accepts third party cookies and tags by default. And they're gonna see how much stuff that wrecks and then gradually ramp it up, because they know they need to do this. You know, Apple's ahead of the game with Safari, but Safari has a pretty small share of the browser market. With the death of the cookie, the third party cookie will come an end to the ability to, for digital marketing organizations to do the types of micro-targeting and demand generation that they do today. Like, budget is already shifting away from, let's do, you know, get really, let's just spend a million dollars on getting in the right social feeds for the right people and shifting over to, maybe we need to build something that those people are actually organically interested in and put an actually cool web experience or good content together. And then we promote it more broadly, but the right people engage with us. That we're going back to that kind of a model and that shift towards the value of a really engaging web experience, a really good website, right? This should actually be exciting for all of us because it means that we're gonna have to build really cool websites again. That's fun. So yeah, so the shift is on and we need an open source headless CMS to be a part of the equation for it to really take hold because otherwise, you know, we'll be stuck in the ringer going around, playing like jumping off and on the tools merry-go-round. A solid open source headless CMS will enable tons of awesome innovation to happen further up the stack. And that is, again, I think there's, Drupal is not that today, but Drupal could be that in the not too distant future. And it would be, again, this would not be 100% of Drupal sites, but it could be a meaningful percent of Drupal sites. I think it would be a really exciting thing. I'll leave you with this. This just gets back to why we're doing what we're doing at Pantheon, but just for those of you who have not seen this kind of like technology analyst perspective, take it with a grain of salt, but there's reasons that these graphs have been applied to so many different things. So what I did here was I put together two common industry visualizations. The first is the pink line, which is the hype cycle, right? We are at or near that first peak in the AI hype cycle right now, where it's just like, who knows what is gonna actually, everybody knows something big is gonna happen. People are making crazy outlandish claims, and no one wants to say, I don't think that's actually true because you're riding that hype cycle up, and you don't wanna be wrong about it, but you know a lot of people are gonna be wrong about it. And then what happens with technology is these expectations get super inflated, and then eventually reality kicks in, right? You find out that the tech isn't magical, it has a lot of issues. There's a lot more to getting value out of it, like actually figuring out the practical utility of things. Maybe, take sort of off topic for me, if you are really into cryptocurrency you find out there isn't one, and it goes to zero. Or maybe you get through that trough of disillusionment where it's like, ah, I gotta recouple, this was terrible, never doing it again. I talk with John Faber from chapter three, we don't get a chance to talk that much anymore because they're running their own business, and he's doing the Drupal next thing, which I think is cool, that's an interesting foray into this. And he was telling me, I did a Gatsby Drupal project in 2019, and it was such a nightmare. I promised never again, I'm not gonna go back, I can't do that, it almost ruined our whole year. And here he is, back around again, like subsidizing the Drupal next thing. That's getting through that trough of disillusionment. And then, to tell the story as the analysts do, you climb the slope of enlightenment to the plateau of productivity. It's flowery language, but the idea is like actually things get more real, people put in the actual hard work to figure out how to make things valuable, and then you kinda get to a place where like, yeah, this is great, we like doing this, it works for people. And that's overlaid on the bottom with the market segments, because the people who can get something really to work in that first part of the hype cycle, they're the innovators, they're the early adopters, they're the experimenters. And experimenters are comfortable with like things blowing up on them and like having experiments not work out. That's why they can innovate, but that tolerance for failure and appetite for risk is not something that's shared by the majority of the market. People don't want necessarily their website to be a science experiment. And so you see this like other segments of the market, the early majority of the late majority and then the laggards, right? That's the people who move slower. You know, the early majority, they tend to still think of themselves as innovators, but they're not the first people to adopt a thing. They're gonna wait until it's kinda proven and they can, you know, there's enough credibility around it. And then the late majority of the laggards, those are like slower moving companies and then like really slow moving institutions. And I did a variant of this talk at last summer's decoupled days in New York in which I was like, hey, for everybody in the room, where do you think we are on the slide down from the peak of inflated expectations to that trough of disillusionment? Cause it kind of really felt that way. Like a lot of cool stuff was happening, but there's a lot of people who've been like, well, it's not that easy. This is watch out for this, like all of the presentations that we're all about like bigotchas. And you know, I think this year we've turned the corner. I think people are actually figuring out how to do this stuff. They're figuring out how to make it deliver value. They're figuring out how to articulate that value to the people who are paying for the project. So they know what they're buying and they're buying into it for the right reasons. And I think for all of us in the Drupal community, it is a really exciting time if you aren't already exploring this space to start because there's gonna be a lot of really great stuff happening here. And I think, you know, it's not without risk now, but we're not in the crazy, you know, high peak area. I think we're actually getting down to brass tacks and what really works for people. So those are my hot takes on JavaScript in the future of Drupal. Thank you for giving me the, being generous with your time and attention here. I'm happy to answer any questions people have. We can also share the mics up here because it's a pretty full room. Do you wanna come up so that people can hear you? Okay, Yosh. You were mentioning the hot take four. Yeah. Is that Drupal can be that hell of a CMS that is great and everything. What is lacking at the moment? Oh, that's a great question. So what is Drupal lack in order to be a really great open source headless CMS and have this be a key, and also no shade on you if you gotta leave or you just wanna step out, that's fine. I think there's a couple things. So one, I was really excited not because he's like one of my favorite colleagues, but I think because it's a great thing for Drupal to do to see Brian's project on like having a first class Drupal JavaScript library available. Like as part of that, that's a project that we wanna do. Like that's a really key foundation place. Like the modern front end developer wants to be like, okay, NPM install, whatever the thing is, and I need to talk to this thing. I don't wanna think about that very much. I just need to install the right thing and then start building on my side. Like that is a key missing piece right now. I think that there's also some open questions around API design. I think it's challenging because we don't have a lot of like technical lead level, like kind of principle high powered front end developers in this community. And everything I would say on a technical level really boils down to we need those people to be a part of the conversations as we design the evolution of Drupal because we need to meet their needs really well versus it being kind of a slog to get up and running with Drupal. And there's progress being made on that front. I also think that we need better kind of reference implementations and not just in Drupal core or contrib but just like kind of out there as to like, here's how you put the pieces together. I was talking with Seth from Lullabot at the party last night, which was awesome. And they did this whole contenta distribution. That was like in 2017, I think. That got started and it's kind of gone by the wayside now because they were a little bit ahead of the curve, a little too far ahead of the curve, I think they didn't get the pickup on it. And I'm not saying a distribution is the answer here because like there's lots of challenges and problems with distributions as a way to like get people to adopt best practices but something like that where it's like, here's the recipe, here's the stack. Like we're gonna try to do some of this at Pantheon with like having starter kits for headless Drupal that have some stuff pre-configured out of the box but that shouldn't be proprietary to us. That should just be something where this is, yeah, but this is accepted. And you know, Drupal being Drupal, there's probably gonna be two or three that people debate about which one is right endlessly. Like do you do panels? But just some like so that people aren't starting from scratch, I think that's also very important. And then the last thing I think it needs to really get there is for the people on the business side of the Drupal community to be able to put this into solution and value and present it to the market. Like right now I think marketing doesn't do magic but it's very important for communicating a message and educating the market that actually you're not wrong to wanna go in this direction. If you go in this direction you should seriously consider open source as a value. If you're considering open source as a value, Drupal is an amazing option. Something as simple as that to really get that out into the market would, because ultimately for this to work we have to get the adoption. And that means when you're talking about the enterprise they don't just like Google it and pick it up on their own. They need to be, the enterprises expect to be kind of sold to to some extent and we have to fill that gap too. Yes, you wanna step up to the mic? So speaking about the hot takes on the future of CMS and Drupal and all that. And sort of synthesizing with the keynote speech. What is the role of content management services and hosting services in terms of changing the narrative around social justice and race and all that. Like not hosting hate sites and hate speech. Where does that fit in in terms of the future of how content management systems are gonna go? Is it up to you guys what to host and what not to host to try to make a change? Or is it just let everybody in and let the rest of the society deal with it? I appreciate the hot take question. Hopefully you were able to attend my earlier presentation today. I think that's a question that different organizations will answer differently. And I think one of the things that's important when it comes to hot charge issues like this where people rightly have a lot of passion is that as a community we recognize that reasonable people can disagree about some of those things. And I don't think anyone has like the answer right now. That's a big open question. Like I wasn't able to attend the keynote but I'm familiar with some of the content. And I saw maybe sacrilege to say a Drupal con but I saw a great presentation at a word camp one time where they were, and the literal topic of the presentation was the dark side of democratization. And like that's a community where they, I mean they wrestled with this a lot because they run so many websites and there's a lot of not great ones in there. And then the platform providers is another layer on that. We're a part of that conversation. And I think honestly the answer is that is that there's gonna be a variety of different approaches that people will take. And I think there's gonna be some people who lean more towards actively moderating what goes on. That's not our choice. I think there's challenges doing that as an infrastructure provider but I'm sure there would be some folks will. And there are other folks that are gonna take a really hard line kind of a freedom angle. And there's lots of shades of gray in between. And so I think, I don't actually have a succinct answer to that question other than that I think it's something that we need different folks to try out working in different ways to try to see if we can develop a better consensus on what we want to the future look like. And then there's financial implications regardless of which way you live. There's financial implications as to how much money, where your customers are gonna come from. Yeah, I think that's true to some extent but it's like, we don't see it as a financial decision. I'll just say that. Other questions? Yes? You gonna shout it? All right, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So my, just from analyzing the industry and looking at it, Next.js is running away with the show right now. And that's for a good reason. They, first of all, Guillermo, like he's amazing. Like he's a brilliant technologist. If you ever get a chance to see him present, like he is a showman. He's like got Steve Jobs energy. It's awesome. But he knows the space really well. He understands what is, does and doesn't work. And he was smart enough to see that the framework that got you to a working website that's not boxed in to being static or has to be totally dynamic. The framework that let you sit in the middle of that question and build what you needed to do easily would be one that gets really wide adoption. I think there's like a lot of interesting stuff in like the, even the next generation beyond that with like Svelte, Redux, and then, you know, it's JavaScript so there's gonna be a flavor or new flavor out next month. But if you were looking for a center of gravity to invest in now, in terms of like where are there really complete tools? Where is there best practices already out there? Where is there a good community, good documentation? I would say Next.js should be your, it's not like say only do that, but that would be the first place to really look at. And if you're gonna pick something that's not that, you would want a reason why it was better, that was specific, that's my thing. And then when it comes to what we're doing, like yeah, we're building these, you can go see it in the booth demo. But we basically have built this idea of like common pairings as easy starter states with always the ability to bring your own front end repo because people can build it with whatever they want. You know, we're gonna release things as NPM modules so you can compose it yourself. But I think the common starter states are something that we wanna like help people, even if they don't use it for the ultimate project for a client, maybe it helps you get up and running and see how these things fit together more quickly. Any more for any more? I'm gonna do my awkward zoom pause, lunchtime. Okay, thank you all so much for coming. I really appreciate it. Good luck, have a great DrupalCon.