 of the nonprofit show. I'm super excited today because Freyay, Best of Me, asked and answered, Tony, you and I have not been on camera together for kind of a while. I know, I have missed seeing you. I love being on the show with the nonprofit nerd, but I equally love being on the show with you. So it's wonderful to see you and whether it's you or Jared, I always know it's going to be one, a really good time and two, a great conversation. So it's really good to see you. And as always, I'm honored to be here and contribute in whatever way I can. Well, Tony, about Senior Director Relationship Center, Fundraising Academy at National University, I love your energy, I love your approach and it's a really cool thing. I think one of the things that I like how you respond to questions is, one, you come from the sector, you've been a leader, you're an educator, you're a trainer, you know this stuff in the fundraising world. But I must say, I think maybe there's also a little nuanced response to how you look at things because you're from the East Coast. And I don't know if you ever think when we're responding, if you think maybe we have a West Coast approach, do you see that at all? I don't really see that. I think I don't see people or decisions as regionalized or... Oh, no, but I mean, I certainly appreciate and respect those specific nuances, like you were saying, within regions and how they can be very unique. I don't really think that way. I think when I'm responding, it's not even necessarily an East Coast, maybe it is. I mean, you know, but in my mind, I'm really thinking about the fundraisers and the folks in this sector that I've met all across the country and globally and really kind of think, try to respond in a way that would be the most beneficial to the larger audience. But what you said is very interesting. I mean, maybe, you know, and it's funny. So I was born and raised, not that this is your life, Tony, right, but I was born and raised in Maryland and then from Maryland, moved into D.C. and then from D.C. to Memphis and then Memphis to Chicago and then Chicago to Fort Lauderdale. So I've had the opportunity to work with and now working for National University in San Diego. So I've had an opportunity to work with folks in all of the regions of the U.S. and there are some nuances, but I appreciate you saying that, it's interesting. Well, it is interesting. And every day we talk with somebody from a different part of the world, literally. I mean, I guess from Ireland a couple of weeks ago, I mean, we've been getting more and more Canadians to come in and talk with us. So it's just kind of an interesting thing. And I just thought I would ask before we get going because I am fascinated by it. Before we start getting into today's meaty questions, we wanna make sure that we thank our sponsors. They are here with us day in and day out and many of them have been with us from day one. That includes Blumerang, American Nonprofit Academy, your part-time controller, non-profit nerd, National University and Fundraising Academy, Staffing Boutique, and non-profit thought leader. Again, we say thank you to these folks. If you wanna get to any of our archives, we guess we have done over 600 shows. I was a lot smoother and thinner 600 episodes ago. You can find us on Roku, YouTube, Amazon Fire TV, and Vimeo. But wait, there's more. We now are podcasting all of these episodes. And I think our executive producer just told us yesterday, if I'm not mistaken, we now have over 150 episodes in podcast format. So you can clean your house to the last minute of the day, listening to us as I like to say. Okay, my friend, are you ready to go? Let's dive in. Let's dive in. Oh my God, that's gonna be my new thing. Okay, Carla from Phoenix, Arizona. What type of success do you think is possible by moving a talented staff person from programming to development? Does this ever work? We get this question, I bet once a quarter. Somebody recognizes somebody that's got a great talent and passion, and they're like, oh, holy moly, let's get them into two development. What do you think? Yeah, so I have seen this work very successfully. But again, it all depends on the individual. So first you have to be very mindful of the skill sets required for someone to really succeed, well, both in the programming, right? Or in the development space. So if you're looking at transitioning someone to development, have a really, well, one, and I say this because not all nonprofits have the resources and can lean into some of the just business 101 best practices, but you wanna make sure that you have, and I didn't mean that in any kind of sending way. No, no, but you're right, you're right. Some folks just don't have the resources in order to do all of that. So my first recommendation is make sure you have a job description for the development role. So that if you're transitioning someone from another department into development, they have a clear understanding of the expectation and the role. And then within that, you should be able to have a healthy conversation around that individual skill sets and how closely they may or may not align with the skill sets required for a development position. But that being said, I will take a team member that is high, will, low skill every day of the week. I love high, low skill. So if you have someone in the programming department that is close, but maybe not all the way there and has the desire to work in this space, then I would say move them in, but make sure you've got a really solid professional development plan for them to skill them up in the areas where they might need to improve. Another value in that when someone has the opportunity to move from programming to development, imagine the insight that they have on the folks being served, on the outcomes of the programs. Think of the stories that they have to share with a potential donor about their experience and program delivery, how they can share with the donor, just the important, like, if the word for individuals like you, potential donor investor, folks like me in our organization could have never had this kind of impact on our community. And by the way, our impact has been, da-da-da-da, again, because of the generosity of individuals like you. So I think that they have a lot to bring to development. You do not need to move folks from program to development for there to be that kind of value add, right? I've always thought program and development should be needing regularly to share what's going on within their business units so that development has those testimonials and those stories from the program team members. So I probably could talk a lot about this. I don't think it's a bad idea. I've seen it being very successful. But again, it's all about the individual and where they are and where they are with their skill sets and what are your opportunities to increase their professional learning or professional development to skill them up. So Tony, what about like a, in essence, like a hybrid where this person that Carla has identified that says, yeah, they've got, I love what you said, high will, low skill. Would it ever be something where they're like, yeah, we want to bring you program officer or program person in for a conversation. Not like you're putting them in as a fundraising member team but you may be a fundraising asset. Oh, for sure. Am I communicating that? Yes, I know exactly what you're saying. So, and we've talked about this when we've had conversations around board members and what is the board, how can the board contribute to the fundraising process? We often talk about how they, the time has to be right. You have to make sure it's the right fit with your potential, right? So again, all of those things, but there's a lot of value in bringing someone within your programs to a meeting with a potential donor investor because then you could just hand it over to them and they can speak very deeply about the programs. Yeah, I love that. And it kind of is also could be a good slide, like a way to move somebody in to see if that even works. Well, that's true. That's a very good point. No, versus like just pulling them out and then putting them in. Okay, Carla, I hope that helps. Carla comes from my hometown, so. I saw that. I know, I know. It was a great question. And we know what's going on with the workforce and we know there's a shortage of fundraisers and so this is a great way again of looking at internal talent and how can we maximize them or realign their talent. Right, right. Okay, Florence from Baltimore, Maryland comes to us with a question. Are you seeing issues with getting board members to come back to IRL in real life meetings? It seems that our board members just want to zoom in and that they are not very engaged with showing up this way. Big question. A lot of organizations are struggling with this right now. And this truly, I think is a really good example of where I think depending on where you are regionally, you will get a different response because if you look at just in general the reaction or response to, because this is a pandemic related question, right? I mean, this is what drove this, I'm going to assume. So when we look across the country, different regions responded to the pandemic differently. And so I think the same thing here, if you were to look at, for example, Texas, most folks in Texas right now, and this is true of what we're experiencing at National University and within our programs, when we're looking at partnering with school districts around the country, school districts in Texas right now, the majority are saying, yes, we would love to do something, but if it's not in person, don't even talk to us about it. Interesting. Where there are other regions, perhaps the Northeast, where they'll say, are we going to have to do this in person or can, and again, it's just, it's comfort level. So I think depending on your region, we'll have a lot to do with what is really the appropriate answer here. But the second part of this is they are not very engaged. So give them responsibilities that require them to report out on something. So that everyone on the board has a responsibility to say something and has provided an opportunity to be heard based on the way that you're running your meetings. We start all of our meetings usually with some type of buddy up question. So one of our other programs at National University that falls under the umbrella with the fundraising academy is our social-emotional learning, harmony, our social-emotional learning curriculum. And so for that, we have buddy up questions. So we start our meetings with buddy up questions, something really simple, like if you were going to be a flavor of an ice cream, what flavor would you be? So, you know, so just through these quick connection kind of questions, right? So there are ways that you can facilitate your meeting that really maximizes the level of engagement, even if the engagement isn't specific to a business topic. I am fascinated by that because, you know, for so long in the board ecosystem, we've really believed that in order to bring everybody together and center them, that we needed to start with a mission moment. That too, I love that, I love that too. I think that's a great idea. Well, that's true, but the higher need right now because of digital communication, I think is what you're talking about. I really like that. I have a meeting to deal with in two weeks. I'm going to, a national convening of a board. I'm going to try that. Yeah, and follow up with me. I have some great questions I can send you. So, yeah, but you're right. I'm glad that you did say that because the mission moment is important, but right now the connectivity needs to happen at a different level. And it really is around the personal relationships and how we interact with one another. We also will often start meetings with kind of a rating system, from one to five, five being the highest, one being the lowest, where are you today? Yeah, and folks can share that. And then what you do is if you do that consistently, then you look for consistent patterns. So if you have board members that are consistently showing up below a three, then there may be some conversations that needs to be had in the most supportive way. If you're always showing up every meeting at a 2.5 or a two, what can we do to elevate that? There is something happening that is causing that person to show up and report out that way. So how can we all support them and help bring them from a 2.5 to a three or a four? Okay, now I'm gonna sound really tough when I say this but I'm like, come on, we don't have time for that because we got an agenda and we gotta get through this. And we know people falter after like 40 minutes to that final 15 minutes to achieve your meeting. What do you do? Do you just say, ah, that's a bummer, we'll get back to you? Or do you stop and address it? I mean, how does that work? No, no, you don't really stop and address it. I mean, what we've been doing as a best practice is just observing that and then reaching out individually to the individual. We don't try and solve it or come to consensus on whatever is creating that rating. It would be great if we could. But yeah, we don't go that deep but it's a good just kind of high level, easy gauge on where people are. And then you just kind of look for patterns in that as your meeting. I'm fascinated by that. I kind of like the ice cream flavor better. But you know, I think this is a worthy discussion because this is the reality. You know, we are hearing this more and more, Tony. Board members saying, yeah, I don't really need to be meeting in person because it's a lot more efficient. I can get more things done. I'm not spending an hour traveling. I'm not searching for parking. I'm not having to get on my professional shoes, whatever the heck. Whatever it is. But so I think this is an interesting question, Florence. I hope you take up some of Tony's ideas and then get back to us on how this is working because it's not going away. Yeah, and one of the things I would mention to Florence and I always mention this whenever someone has a question about boards or board engagement is go to the board source website, board source that really is, you know, it's where I always go. I've mentioned them numbers, you know, number of times. I have no relationship with them. I have no contract. I'm not connected to them other than their terrific resource. And I personally, and many boards I've worked with have benefited from the information at board source. I think that's really, I think that's super wise and I agree. And I mean, we are in a changing time still the way boards are working now has been forever altered. And so we need this type of information and support now more than ever. Okay, Jerry comes to us from Durango, Colorado. Could you address the new trend in outsourcing talent? We're seeing issues with hiring and are frankly considering looking at this but have never done it before. Need some feedback on this. Very interesting because yeah, it used to be like, here's your cubicle, you sit right there and I wanna see you at the water fountain or in the lunch room. That's not happening. Very interesting. I would say too, Tony, I know that we, and again, this is probably due to one of our sponsors but you know, your part-time controller which is a national accounting firm. Yes. I mean accounting. Hello, that's to be, you were in the office and now they're really all remote. So it's a shift. Yeah, so when I saw that outsourcing, I immediately thought of the fact that yes, many nonprofits are outsourcing and contracting talent outside of the organization, right? And it's working. And like you said, one of the sponsors is a great example of that, how you can outsource that particular need for the organization. So one, I supported to really be mindful about what it is that you're looking to outsource. And then when I say what it is, what is the, what are the roles and responsibilities that you're looking to outsource? I will say that, and I've said this before, I'm not a huge fan or supporter of outsourcing your fundraising. Okay, that was gonna be my follow-up question. I knew you were gonna go there. I was like, okay, lay it on the table. Just because of the relationships, right? And the relationship, it's a relationship business. And as an organization, you want to own those relationships and own them, meaning be responsible for them, nurture them, all of that. And so if you're contracted with someone, and they leave, if you haven't been fully engaged in that in some way, those relationships kind of leave too. So it's a little easier to maintain, respond to the relationships if an internal team member is moving on, right, if an internal fundraiser is moving on, than if a contracted fundraiser is moving on, in my opinion. Okay, what about this? What if, because this is, and I haven't worked with anybody like this, but I've been seeing this, what about like a fundraising coach whereby they are maybe not in your city, but they can engage with your team almost like a development director or that level, what are you seeing on that? Yes, well, a lot of smaller mid-sized nonprofit organizations aren't in the position to have senior leadership that kind of oversee strategy and all of that. So that's where outsourcing consultants to come in and help as thought leaders and as strategists can come in and help you develop the fundraising plan, coach your fundraising team on how to be successful. So I totally support the notion of having coaches come in and help provide that support for your team. Interesting, another thing too, before we go on to the next question, I'm seeing more and more HR folks that are like that you can contract outside. And again, maybe in a completely different part of the country, but they will do things like onboarding and pulling through when there are issues. I mean, I think that's really, really something that we need to look at because it seems to me we have a lot of nonprofits, smaller nonprofits that are like, oh, if only we can grow to the point to have HR. And it's like, yeah, no, you can invest in that upfront, but it's gonna be a remote relationship. Yeah, and even within fundraising, nonprofits have very successfully outsourced their grant writing, right? I mean, that's nothing new, very successfully do that. And I see more and more nonprofits now outsourcing their event management. So if they have an annual gala, they are now outsourcing that to an event company. They still, the nonprofit still owns the responsibility for sponsorship and all of that, but they're outsourcing all of the logistics, so that your fundraiser isn't caught up in a conversation around what color should the lemons be? Right, I love it. I love that you brought that up because this is our reality. We're coming back to more in-person things. And so super cool that you talked about that. Okay, we've got one time for one more question and you know how I am. I love the name with health. These are always a scandal. I just think this is great. I always, and I'll man up. Sometimes I will actually take a name off if I feel like it's problematic. Well, that's good looking out for people. I'm sure they appreciate it. You know, I think sometimes when people just email questions to us and they're sitting in their pajamas two in the morning stressing out, I think we need to kind of honor the concept that a lot of people are gonna see this. Anyway, name with health asks the question and they're coming from Dallas. We are looking at our paid holidays off next year. Some in our nonprofit are scoffing that Juneteenth should even be included in the day's paid. I'm horrified and frankly dismayed that our nonprofit does not recognize this important holiday. And I am not even a person of color. Isn't that an interesting question? So my new Zoom background prevents you from seeing the steam that is building out of my ears. Over this particular question. So Juneteenth is a federal holiday. Yes, it's a federal holiday. So let me just start there. So if within, you know, if your organization is celebrating every other federal holiday, then you should indeed be honoring and recognizing and celebrating Juneteenth. And quite frankly, as a white male, that's as far as I'm gonna go with trying to stress the importance of recognizing, because if I say anything more deeply, I'm sure I will misspeak and misrepresent other than I will say that, yes, your organization really should be recognizing Juneteenth. It is an equally important federal holiday to observe. Yeah, I think it's a, you know, we call it federal holiday, banker holiday. I mean, yeah, absolutely. It is a recognized thing. And so there shouldn't really be a discussion. Now, if I am not mistaken, and I always, you know, put my foot in it, I think that Juneteenth actually celebrates something that occurred in Texas. And so maybe that's why this, there's a little bit more reticence within, you know, the framework of this, but absolutely, it is a federal holiday. And to your point, if you are honoring all the other federal holidays and you can go on very, online very easily and look that up and have those all laid out for you, then that should be a no-brainer. Yeah. And this is, there's, you know, if you lift the hood up on that question, there's a lot going on there. So there's some other stuff that needs to, some other conversations that need to happen within that organization. They might want to, you know, think about getting a deep in the eye consultant and then. Yeah. Okay, I'll man up. I took that person's name off. I did because, you know, yeah. Well, I, you know, I appreciate their level of ownership, right? And, you know, and wanting to kind of not, you know, maybe not be so invisible, but I'm glad they asked the question. And again, it's, you know, just the simple answer is, if you're observing every other federal holiday, then you absolutely should be observing Juneteenth as well. Absolutely, absolutely. Well, my friend, this has been great. I always love your wisdom. Tony Bell, Senior Director, Relationship Center, Fundraising Academy at National University, coming to us from the East Coast, which is very nice. You like class up our, you know, our program here. I don't know about that, but it's, but it is. It's only, and I can't believe that I would buy so fast. Again, it always goes by so fast. It does. And I got to tell you, you know, it does for me and I know Jared would say the same thing. I mean, it does go by really quickly. I'm going to let everybody know we have a really, really exciting thing that's going to happen starting next week with Fundraising Academy. And that is we're doing one of our nonprofit power weeks. And this is going to be really interesting because every single day, we have an expert on with us from Fundraising Academy. And we're going to flip the tables a little bit and talk about fundraising, working with donors, achieving relationships with questions. And we're going to actually go through every day through a series of questions that you can ask your donor or use in conversations with donors. It's really unique, really different, something we've never done before. I've been working with Tony, your team on the decks. It's very, very interesting. And so join us for that. And of course, if you miss us, all those episodes will be on our archive, but it's going to really be magical and it's going to really give us a new way to think about this. Again, we want to thank all of our presenting sponsors without them, we would not be here. Blue Morang American Nonprofit Academy, your part-time controller, non-profit nerd, National University's Fundraising Academy, Staffing Boutique, and non-profit thought leader. Hey, Tony, as we end every episode, we want to remind ourselves, our viewers, our listeners, and you, my friend, stay well so you can do well. We'll see you back here on Monday, everyone.