 Hello, everyone. Welcome to Coast to Coast. My name is Lillian Corral and I'm joined by my co-host, Lily Weyberg. Hi, Lillian. Hi, Lillian. How are you? I'm good. How are you doing? I'm doing okay. Yeah. It's, you know, and I know that you're dealing with this too in Southern California, but it's been a tough time with COVID. And it's, you know, it's getting really close and it's been, you know, it's been really hard knowing people who are getting sick and then just everything is rapidly changing. And we were just talking about this earlier with our co-host too. Yeah. No, it's interesting. I was telling a friend last week where I feel like it's getting closer, whereas I know in Southern California, we've been practicing a lot of shelter in place and keeping the numbers low. Now, especially because I work with so many colleagues in Florida starting to hear about so many stories that are just a lot closer to home. It's starting to, it feels a little bit closer than before. So it's definitely difficult times for everyone. We hope everyone is staying safe and using their masks. Yes. I know I'm getting used to mine, and especially with my little, I'm trying to get him to also use one too. Oh, has he, has, does he use one? Not very well. My friend is 18 months old. I can imagine is not very good at least trying to introduce him to it because also, like, just the experience of a child now of a sudden seeing you like, you know, not used to it. So it's just, you know, getting him used to being in public. I know. And there's this whole other thing that we could talk hours about, but there's also the issue of language too, not being able to see your mouth moving and, you know, and that with children. But it's definitely strange times. It's a dynamic time. But I'm really happy that that we continue to have these conversations about what we're seeing in cities and what we're learning, because it is, it is so dynamic and that's really what we're looking about is looking at the future of communities and, and really seeing and hearing from practitioners. So we, we started looking at public spaces. Then we did a deep dive around equity and how we can think about that in our institutions around public art and all of that and equity actually wasn't wasn't new, though. So equity was a was a component of everything that we were talking about, but we really did we continued and went deeper. And then this last one that we did I thought was super interesting around around the, the digital public realm, the digital public square and and really thinking about that transition that that's occurring and, and what does local mean and so it's been super interesting I'm excited about this conversation today on mobility. Yeah, yeah, great tea up there. And so mobility is a topic that has really come across a lot of these shows to it's one of those where obviously it stands on its own but it impacts a lot of it's been part of the conversation in terms of how we use our open streets, and what equity and access. So it sort of come up a lot of times but I'm really excited to talk today with Anthony Townsend and Warren Logan so Anthony is an author scholar around work of smart cities and also automated vehicles, especially in the last couple of years he's done some amazing work with the National League of Cities and now has a great book out which we'll talk more about called ghost road beyond the driverless car. And Warren Logan is the director of mobility innovation in a mayor's office in Oakland, primarily chef and Warren comes from the city of San Francisco has a long history mobility can tell us a little bit more about what's happening in in Oakland and in particular. And, and I think, you know, just as we tee this up I think what what I really hope that we can really think about is one, how mobility is being impacted, and obviously it's been changing over the last couple years of mobility, obviously we think about it from both a public transit and a private perspective. So it's a system that's been changing over the last couple of years. Now you have cove it, you have all these questions about race and equity and access and how are we with our transportation systems have have hindered a lot of equity and access for communities and so. So I think there's a lot to talk about and we have 30 minutes. Well, good luck with that and and I'll be hopping in to get the Q&A. So everyone, all audience members please put your, your questions in the Q&A box and I'll see you in 15 minutes. Okay. Bye. Anthony and Warren, please join me. Thanks so much. So I just sort of teed it up a little bit, right, at least from the night perspective we think about mobility both from that equity lens but also from the innovation space in terms of thinking about all the disruption. I'd love to just start with both of you and just ask you like, I love this exercise about a lens like what lens do you come to this conversation with. Why does mobility matter to you? Can you sort of talk about it from your various perspectives like why do you think this is such an important area of work? Sure. Thank you, Lillian for asking a really broad question that I think has so many implications. The first I'll share from my transportation planning background is that mobility is about access to resources and COVID or otherwise it's about getting to jobs, it's about getting to friends to the grocery store, you know, taking your kids to school. And so when we think about the impact of a pandemic on that really important mobility factors, that's also, it's the same thing again, which is like how are we getting to the same resources but perhaps differently. And I think that from a digital perspective that's also going to be really important too. From my point of view, I agree 100%, I mean mobility is the light's blood of cities. But it's also the area where I think the promise of technology to improve cities and give people choices has been realized most clearly, you know, most widely and for the largest number of people. You know, there were a lot of promises made about urban technology over the last decade and this is one where I think, you know, a huge number of people now see the benefits in their pocket. And so it's such a lot of lives and given people a lot more choices and, you know, a lot more freedoms. So it's a great test case for understanding how technology might affect housing or education or healthcare or other areas of urban life in the future. That's a great point. I definitely want to get back to that when we think about the future because I would wholeheartedly agree. So just thinking about the moment we're in, especially during this pandemic, is there something that like most strikes both of you about the trends in mobility that you've seen or some of the impacts that have occurred? Like what's been the most surprising thing for both of you? Sure. I'll go first. I mean this politely. I don't think I'm actually that surprised about anything that's happened during COVID when it comes to transportation, when it comes to mobility, when it comes to technology related to transportation. I think that especially from a policy standpoint and, you know, just again being active in the barrier for over 10 years now, you know, a lot of the trends that we're seeing in relation to people's, you know, lack of access to resources as we just talked about are the same demographic shifts that have always been occurring. If you don't have a car, you're still going to lack access, right? If you're relying on bike share, you might get so far, but there's still not enough infrastructure to get you there safely. On the other hand, and this sounds perhaps more positively, I've been really encouraged by the fact that people are finally looking at the ways in which we use our rights of way, our streets or sidewalks, our parks, flexibly, and that we're now finally able to suspend some of our original preconceived notions around like cars first, everything second, and now having a thoughtful conversation about maybe people first and mobility is part of that, whether or not you use a different tool to get to your different resources. Well, and I don't know if you want to answer about that, but maybe certainly back to that previous point you made about the potential. It seems to me like that flexibility was in some ways that one of the potentials that technology was going to give us in terms of the way we could manage our cities. And it hasn't really happened. So, I mean, what are the things that are surprising you and how are you seeing some of these tech benefits realized if you could give us some examples. Yeah, I mean, the big surprise which is both fascinated and kind of horrified me has been around delivery and what we've seen the private sector, particularly like the sort of venture backed tech sector. Due to step in and find a way to scale up, you know, the number of food and grocery deliveries by a factor of about three since January across the country, and to, to, you know, make this not so awful for people that have had to isolate either as a precaution or isolate, you know, out of medical necessity, and they've delivered medicines and educational materials and all kinds of other things that people need to maintain life at home and that's been really remarkable. At the same time it's been horrifying because you can see a lot of moves to position to essentially, you know, take the whole wall modification of main streets to a whole nother level. And Walmart, in fact, it's been, you know, they took advantage of Amazon's missteps early on to try to move in and recapture some of the e-commerce pie. Amazon bought Zooks, which is an automated software automated driving company. People think that they may be making automated delivery play. And then Uber just, you know, bought Postmates last week to try to continue their expansion of rebalancing their business to be about 50% passengers and 50% deliveries. You see all these small businesses falling apart. You see these big, you know, players backed with big pockets moving in to take, take over big parts of the local economy. And I don't think that's a good thing for, for cities over the long run. Anthony, it's funny that you should say that though just to kind of respond quickly that I, I guess I have been surprised, I'm not surprised that we're seeing technology companies pushing way ahead in terms of the movement of goods and movement of freight and things like that. But I think that funny enough in my last rule in San Francisco, I pushed a lot of the companies kind of hard on this policy space to say why is it that you're climbing up this really steep hill to deliver people with so many different regulatory hurdles when delivering goods to people is actually much simpler. You know, because there's so many safety implications and so on. Interestingly enough, though, in time, you know timing is everything. It's kind of unfortunate actually that we weren't able to launch something like a scooter program just before COVID. And the reason I share that is because just at the same time that people are not able to take transit, because either transit services are, you know, going to light capacity or not even running at all, people are now more timid around, you know, sharing group spaces. I think this would have been a really great opportunity to double down on those types of technologies and unfortunately we've seen just the opposite. So I think these are pulling back on on scooters many in many cities we're also not seeing bike share anymore. And this might have been the perfect time to have seen those types of services launch not decreased or even completely, you know, go away. Any reaction? I mean, so I mean, I think it's an interesting point because what it says is like cities and and the companies that are making investments right like they're all sort of taking taking measures to try to deal with this in the short term, but there's some some long term steps that they could take together that maybe they were doing stuff before COVID that there was some long term alignment right after all the struggles that cities have had with these tech companies kind of entering markets without permission and whatever. But then COVID sort of threw that all up in the air again. And you had the scooter companies, you know, the bike share companies pulling back and doing crazy things like, you know, the jump bikes getting destroyed in the North Carolina forest, you know, in the dark of night. Like, whatever long term alignment was starting to happen seems to have just gotten thrown out the window, as people scrambled to adapt so, you know, maybe a reset in that conversation seems to be an order. And as you point out, more more sort of micro mobility is something that cities really need right now, so that people can run down to their restaurants and pick up their orders, or those restaurants can do their own delivery instead of relying on these big platforms, you know, 30% of the cut. In some cities I think we are seeing interesting partnerships like I know for us, we noted like in Detroit in particular they partnered with both jump and GM, and have delivered 1000 e scooters to essential workers who can use them to be able to get to work so there are some of these places, I definitely want to get to the whole you all forecasting what the future looks like in a minute but I mean this is a good jump to this point about the private sector and how much. So maybe starting with you Warren, I mean, and how much, or how is it to be someone who works in mobility for a city and have so much of your work. This is my opinion, impacted in a lot of ways by the private sector. And like what are the levers that you have that you have or you've been using to kind of really mitigate some of these changes. I just made a lot of assumptions so maybe clarify that and then I'd love to get your take on like yeah how you're seeing interest really drive a lot of what's happening in the quote unquote marketplace or in our cities. I'm going to pack a little bit of that multiple on questions so the first is like, what it's like to work in a city, you know, both during and before coven in relationship to the private mobility space and I think that both working in San Francisco and now in this very issue. It's been kind of a night and day scenario in a way because our approach here in Oakland has been very open very collaborative to understanding how these technology companies can, you know, provide just as we were just talking about like the pieces of the puzzle that government and you know public agencies are not able to provide whether that's, you know, bike sharing in downtown districts that, you know, have our transit lines only going in certain directions, or, you know, providing even gig car sharing around the city to help people make their quick errands and so on so it's it's been really reassuring in some ways during coven to see many of these companies stepping up and providing the level of support that you've even mentioned during a time when they needed them the most and I think that's in part where my excitement but also a little bit of disappointment comes in with the private mobility space and this is a polite criticism is that I spent about three years in this space in San Francisco, listening to a number of companies share with me just how essential their product was that this was going to be the game changer for transportation. And when it came time for those companies those services those widgets right to prove themselves I think some really did exactly that in spades and others kind of recoiled, and I think that that's in part what's challenging about being in the government right now. I think to Anthony's point especially is that I don't want our residents relying on a service for for resources that that are so dire to them right like getting to their jobs getting to their day care for food on a table. If those services are not going to be dependable in times of emergencies. And as we're entering coven, we're now you know it's July the started in February and March. I'm really concerned that we need to make sure that whatever is in the marketplace whether it's public, whether it's private whether it's a partnership that it's stable, and will last into the future no matter, you know what changes may occur or you know Anthony how do you see the industry driving this. I mean, I think if there's a lot of uncertainty right now. So you know I've been thinking a lot about automated vehicles and in China, we've seen a bunch of companies that have been working on automated vehicles pivot. I think that the pandemic swept through there and start to try to apply those technologies to new solutions that would be relevant for the post COVID environment so there was one company that had built a contact a robot for contactless delivery of medicines inside COVID wards. Once, you know once the pandemic was snuffed out in China they didn't really need it. So they're now using it for contactless delivery of food in restaurants. And I think, you know, Silicon Valley had promised us self driving cars we're still waiting for that. Those things are automated vehicles are coming it's just not going to look like what Larry Page or Elon must promise us. It's going to come in 1000 different shapes and sizes, which is good for cities, but I think it's going to require cities to do what Warren was talking about which was to sort of be welcoming and allow these experiments to watch over them and regulate them and permit them in ways that are sensible and watch out for their citizens. But to be a little daring and a little tolerant of risks, particularly, you know, when it serves to meet some of these needs that are going to become very acute during COVID. So, I think, you know, I think the technology. It's not clear if the money is going to be there, the way it's been there in the past. I mean that is shaking itself out in the markets. It may not be $100 billion a year like it's been for the last couple of years. But I think that the needs will be much, much clearer about how we apply it. When Anthony I'm glad that you, sorry. Anthony I'm glad that you mentioned those two words right like risk and then the value right. One of the interesting things about COVID is that, I think, everyone and especially government which can be really hesitant, very safe, very, you know, close to the vest. We've been such risk takers in this time because, and I don't mean this in a glib way but it's like, what's the worst that could happen right like, okay close 10% of your streets right like, we're seeing cities take the kinds of risks that I think during these really critical times is important but maybe not to take those types of risks all the time. And by extension, what is also important about COVID in light of these mobility shifts is that both during this time and then hopefully after all of this, we're I think going to have a much clearer perspective on where the gaps were right like we've now confirmed who really needs the help, no matter a pandemic or otherwise. And what where we really need to drive value and frankly where from a government perspective, where we really want to focus our attention, not so much let's say on, you know, the little trips to, you know, on scooters to go see your friends but like, there's so much more value now to ensure that just as you said, we're getting medicine to people in DP Stokeland right that we're able to use our rights of way for the types of trips that are going to be so important to people connecting to resources. As we move forward and I think it's going to be a long time before we really come back to a new normal, I wouldn't say back to normal but just a new paradigm that feels stable and secure. Well, I want to jump to this point and then I know we have questions in the queue with Lily. I mean I think one of my favorite people in mobility a woman said recently in a conversation, you know, that, you know, having communities been saying these things for a long time like do we have to go back to so I appreciate the point like now we're seeing these gaps, but it's almost kind of like the digital divide it's like we didn't really believe it but now we like see it and it's impacting everyone and now we are like oh yeah everybody needs access to the Internet. So how to like, where do communities fall into this and especially I think on the autonomous vehicle discussion and the night has an initiative that's really focused on like supporting cities and ensuring that there's a true engagement process that hopefully informs their own work and informs the industry. So these pilots are rolling out because we didn't see that there was a lot of public engagement. We haven't really made it to your earlier point, right, Warren like, you know, we think these services are really coming they're critical, but we haven't really been engaging people for whom these services are are supposedly for our critical to. So, so how do you all see the role of public engagement in this and then in this work and in this time and how do we not go back to communities and ask the same thing about, you know, what are your mobility needs, because in a lot of ways we've kind of known them and we've, right, I mean, what's wrong with our transportation systems it seems like one and you know perhaps I misspoke a little bit it's not that these gaps are new and I think that was what I shared at the beginning of this I'm not surprised right like if you're paying attention to the last I want to say 100 years or maybe 200 years of like American history and its intersection with race and you know affected communities like all of this is quite predictable right like you could watch all of this happen and not really be surprised that black and brown communities are the most affected by COVID because they're disproportionately less, you know, available to public health to public transportation to all these other services that lots of other people have so like I'm going to, I'm going to park that here. In terms of engagement, I think that what we've learned especially during this period of time is that, instead of this Marco Polo call in response where I have an idea, and I'm now going to bring it to community and and have them say yes or no. Right, we're now talking about us going to the community on a consistent conversational basis and saying how do we help how do we keep this conversation going. And what that looks like for technology and I, again, I'm, I'm remiss of just sharing the so many times with autonomous vehicle companies, including companies before they were owned by Amazon that oftentimes people would, and by people I mean technology companies would pitch us or engage government engage community in what they believe the solution was to a problem that may or may not exist. And I think that that's the wrong type of engagement I would have preferred those types of companies say we have a technology. It can do all these different things and we're curious how it can help people you share with us. So that's what we need. And let's co create a solution. And to me, I mean, I think there's a big, it's kind of kind of an academic question but I think it's important that there's so much changing right now. We've got huge numbers of people working from home. We've got a lot of speculation about people fleeing cities and moving to the suburbs. We've cut off a big chunk of international migration into the US, which is driving a lot of growth of cities for the last couple of decades. We have unemployment, keeping people at home or potentially sending people out and so we've got so much changing in daily travel patterns, and we know very, very little about it. And I think we have this amazing apparatus, which is the mobile phone network that tells us basically where everybody is all the time. There's a tremendous amount of privacy concerns and tapping that to figure out how mobility patterns are changing. But I think because mobility is changing so fast, and our ability to fund, particularly the public transport piece of it is going to be so moving in going forward. The public health implications of public transit are going to be so complicated. I think we may need to start exploring ways to look a little more deeply a little more closely into that mobile phone trace data to understand, you know, where people are and when they're going so that we can serve them better and really understand how mobility is changing and whether it's changing over the long term or not, because it's very likely that we may end up running the few buses we have to places that people are actually going and not using that resource wisely. Yeah, lots of thoughts on that. Lily, what are the kinds of, you know, we've got some questions. Yeah, and this is a great conversation and and and that Anthony that's that's very powerful and Warren I'm sure that you're you're thinking about this every day you're living and breathing this around public transit. And so that there are a few a few questions clustered around that around around the safety piece how there's less demand. And how how are cities possibly going to fund public transit. But I do want to dig into a question around micro mobility. And, and this is from a person who is a big Warren Logan fan so Warren this is a part of your fan club. And, and she asked, could cities work with the private companies to ensure sustainability reliability affordability and equity what what are your, I want to hear from each of you and what do you think about that. Absolutely and I think that someone's calling at the same time. I think we can and I in fact I know we can we've seen a number of times these critical partnerships. And I want to share though that I think a lot of the lack of success the lack of progress in that space, probably has mostly to do with the government. You know I've been in a lot of spaces around the Bay Area around the country, and other countries actually that start with a conversation of whether or not we even want to participate in the conversation. And that's really challenging like if you want to have a collaborative, you know, front door, I think you have to a have a door that's clear and be open that door, you can't create the sort of wall around wall around your city around your city government I really think that it's that there's an onus on us to actively participate in the conversation. And to learn what these technologies are capable of and to stress test them with the companies, you know I've been so happy to have shared a lot of really difficult conversations at times with engineers with planners in these companies where I'm like I don't think that's going to work tell me how this happens tell me how you meet this need to really stress test, you know, delivery robots, for example, right like, how do you meet ADA concerns. So let's keep iterating on that. But when we don't participate in that conversation. Then I don't think we should also be surprised when technology companies miss the mark, because if we don't tell them right if we don't share the expertise that we're so, you know thoughtful and understanding, then, like, that's not a fair debate. Yeah, and that's powerful that you said you know that that that you're from city government and you're saying that that you guys sometimes miss the mark so Anthony, any thoughts. You're muted. Sorry, I was answering some questions in the chat window. Oh, sure. Any specifically that you want to do you have any thoughts on that and if you want to if you want to touch upon one that really stands out to you. I was just answering the question about drones. Someone had asked if drones were going to be a part of this mix. And I said yes. There's a lot of opposition to drones over, of course, nuisance and noise and safety. Probably going to be some time before we see a lot of drones in cities. But there's some very interesting work that's come out of Carnegie Mellon in the last couple of years showing that under certain setups, the drones may actually be the most carbon efficient way to move cargo over the last mile. Because it's basically just all you're moving is the motor. And it's like a motor attached to a box flying down the street, which would be really interesting. When I'm going to, I'm going to probe that for a second, which is kind of the game I play with all the other technologists in the Bay Area is like, what is the problem that we're trying to solve. Well, in that case, it's moving goods over the last mile. So, comparing it to moving it by truck, or I think it's the most carbon efficient motorized means. But comparing it to a cargo bike, I don't think I don't think it can be, but I have to go back to the study. And why are you pressing on that Warren, like what why. Well, because I think this is just the type of conversation I've had a number of times where people will start with the technology and like in search of the problem like can drones help cities and it's like okay well. What is the problem that cities are struggling with and then how have we tried to resolve them what are guiding principles and then what is the technology that can be applied. So I think Anthony just kind of go back to what you're stating and the sort of example that your listeners out there is implicit in that question is an understanding perhaps of like goods movement and and where the challenges are and so what I heard you say Anthony was that we have both an inefficiency in terms of like sustainability or environmental challenges right like that our existing model for moving goods is not good for the environment that's that's like issue one. The second is, I think, as I've heard from, from other drone specialists is that goods movement is also affecting affecting congestion and cities and so you have to start thinking okay well, like why are people stuck in congestion and if one third of the congestion for example is because of UPS and FedEx and everything else then then let's work on that. But I think that there are other steps before that that kind of make you wonder like well why is it that people are ordering so much online right like that that's a completely different path to take down and or to go down excuse me and you might find that that question is actually a land use question and has nothing to do with transportation right like I order things to my house because there's no grocery store near here. So should I invest billions of dollars in drone technology, or can we partner to just stick up, you know, better grocery store nearby that people can walk to right and like, even though those things are very far apart, if you go back to the understanding of like what the problem is that we're trying to solve for, you might find that there are other paths we could have taken, and perhaps even better money could be spent. Fair. And I think that's a really important question to always ask. Anthony, do you have any response to that? Yeah, I know I think it's an industrial solution to problem which is, you know, Amazon doesn't want to wait, their customers want what they want now, so they're trying to solve the problem of how do I deliver 50,000 boxes in this zip code within 15 minutes of a customer asking for it. The getting things off the street and reducing the carbon footprint is sort of potentially a bonus, you know, for the public in that world. I think the more the more interesting use of drones is actually for collecting data about urban conditions, you know, heat loss from buildings, movement of vehicles, you know, potentially assisting during evacuations, you know, monitoring construction activity, all kinds of stuff like that. We're seeing drawings providing the same kind of like surveillance of the city that they provide in the battlefield but doing it to support government operations. Yeah, in the public interest. And I wrote quite a bit about this in Ghost Road, so if you want to check that out. Fantastic and we just linked to that in the chat box. Anthony's latest book. But yes, I mean it's, and certainly drones are having a playing a role during the COVID-19 with dropping off prescriptions and all that so I'm going to call back Lillian to close this out we have gone over time. It's great to our audience but it's been a really good discussion and and Lillian please. Yeah, well we always have to close it out with just an opportunity for both of you to kind of just say, and we didn't never got to the prediction part of the show so I guess maybe we'll do this which is, I mean how do you, there's a lot of speculation, right, and it is all just speculation because I think we don't know yet how COVID or anything, frankly 2020, how 2020 is going to end let's just call it that. Anthony and Warren do you have, can you take a little bit of that, I mean what are some plausible scenarios you're seeing for the space that you that you're moving and Anthony you with more automated vehicles and mobility and Warren you with cities and a lot of these transportation partnerships and things like that. And I'll add the like what I'm hopeful for to that end to which is, I think a best case scenario for how we end 2020 is people really feeling confident that our streets are safe for everyone and secure for everyone and I and I'm speaking quite deliberately about racial justice and that we are able to now have a concrete understandable conversation with our neighbors about all of the different challenges we're having and how technology can help with that, and how and I saw this in some of the questions how even distant face to face conversations can really help us both heal some of our challenges that we keep sort of ignoring while also moving forward towards a more realistic and sustainable way for using streets and sidewalks and public space. And Anthony, how do we end 2020. Yeah, I mean, I think we need a really kind of comprehensive widespread campaign to get people riding public transit again, and dealing rationally with the risks of doing so. You know, I've been doing it just to see what the transit agencies are doing in terms of precautions and how safe it is and how people are behaving. And, you know, frankly, I find it's, it's one of the safest most well behaved spaces. I feel safer riding public transit and I do at the beach right now. In terms of how people are respecting, you know, the social space. And I think we're going to need to do that to keep, keep these systems alive and have some continuity and build public support for all the subsidies of transit is going to need that bridge, you know, between now and whatever's after. I think it's really, really important. And having, you know, bodies in there and bodies of people who are influential is going to be really important. And I'm waiting for some celebrities to step out and say, you know, I got on the bus I got on the train today, because it's safe, you know, and we know the evidence from other countries is that it is safe. So, great point. Well, thank you both this has been a really amazing conversation I know it's just the beginning of the discussion so for the people who are for guests who are listening in on our audience. So, make sure to check out both Anthony and Warren on Twitter. Anthony is at Anthony mobile and Warren you are at Warren mobility. So, both very similar and then also if you have chance check out the links in the chat we've been posting. There's some great resources there around the work of both of these men. Thank you very much. Lily, do you want to say anything about next week's show. Sure. Yeah, thank you. Thanks Lillian and thank you Anthony and Warren. So next week, we have Walter hood, who's going to be joining us and he'll be looking at the future of public spaces landscape the public realm and and what that looks like at the intersection of race and equity. And so it should be a really interesting conversation. I'm excited to have him and of course, Walter is a night public spaces fellow and a MacArthur fellow so so it's going to be going to be interesting. Great. Same time. Yes. Bye.