 Good morning and welcome to the ninth meeting in 2018 of the Social Security Committee. Can I remind everyone to turn off mobile phones or other devices as they may disrupt the meeting? Apologies have been received from our committee member Ruth Maguire and there's no substitute for Ruth at committee today. Agenda item one, our sole agenda item today is an evidence session with the UK Government Minister responsible for social security policy. I'd like to welcome the right Honourable Esther McVeigh MP, Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, to the committee, along with her officials, Mary Patterson, Director of Aging Society, State and Pensions and Devolution and Denise Horsfall, Universal Credit Operations Area Director Scotland, both of whom are from the Department of Work and Pensions. Thank you very much for accepting our invitation. Good morning. I understand that the Secretary of State has opening remarks to make. I'll keep them very brief but, basically, I want to say I'm very pleased to be here at this important time for Scottish devolution. Since taking the role of Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, I've been impressed with the collaborative work that I've seen between the DWP and the Scottish Government officials and I'm personally committed to ensuring that that close working relationship continues. We've got a joint ministerial working group. I was at that in January, they're held every quarter. Again, I was impressed with the nature of the constructive discussions that went ahead and it is really on that basis that I wanted to start our committee today. Thank you very much. We know that we're slightly constrained with time this morning, so we want to get through as many opportunities for questions as possible. I don't want anybody to think that they are constrained for time because I think that this is so important and, obviously, we're up here especially today for this, that I want people to feel free to ask the questions that they want to hear answers for. Thank you. You mentioned that it's a very close working relationship going forward between both Governments and both sets of officials who will be working to deliver this. Obviously, we're a bit disappointed regarding the bedroom tax delay, which means that we won't be able to stop the bedroom tax until 2020 now. It's a delay of about a year and that obviously was a bit of a disappointment and caused some concern, but can you give us your assurance that going forward, that you don't foresee any problems in the timescales that are being set out for the devolution of the powers to Scotland and the ability for that system to operate going forward? As I understand it, there hasn't been a delay. Whilst people were hoping and Scottish Government might have been wanting a result slightly earlier, as we were delivering the technical change within universal credit, whilst there were ambitions and hopes, there was never actually a time put on it and people are now continuing to work at as fast a pace as possible to ensure that the delivery is such that the Scottish Government will be pleased with. Going forward, with the complexities and issues of data sharing, are you content that there shouldn't be any more delays and that we should be able to work to the timescales that are being set out so far? It seems that there has been any delays in data sharing. They have not been down to the DWP, but there was a request for a specific one under PIP. They were not held with the Department for Work and Pensions, they were held with the people who were delivering it and therefore had to go through a separate set of transactions which people knew and understood to get them and have them signed off to come forward. So, as I said, people are working as best they can. All I can say is, so long as we know in advance what people are working to, what it is people want in the correct sequence that they need things. Potentially a code for PIP. You actually need what you want to do with that benefit first and therefore if it came in that sequence everybody would know exactly what people were searching for and were required. I'm going to bring in Ms McNeill. Good morning minister and welcome to the Social Security Committee. I have two broad areas that I'd like to ask you about. The first is, I know that you've been having discussions with the Scottish Government about their intention to introduce a job grant for age group 16 to 24, but there has been some perhaps disagreement about whether it's a devolved competence or not. I think it would be helpful to know what the UK Government's position is, whether a section 30 order would be required for that or not, or whether you think it's a devolved competence. The second area that I want to ask you about is obviously minister overseeing the transition to universal credit. As you'll be aware, it's been a very controversial change in Scotland. Knowing that we would be questioning you this morning, lots of organisations, housing organisations in the Church of Scotland, in many third sector groups I'm sure you've been aware of that are concerned about the transition to universal credit and the impact that it has had. For example, you'll be aware that there is hard evidence that housing arrears as a result of the implementation of universal credit. In areas where universal credit has been implemented, there is direct evidence that there are more food banks needed. My question is, do you accept that there are structural issues for universal credit across the country that really need to be addressed if universal credit is going to do the job that it was supposed to do and give people the same income, the same benefits as a previous welfare system had? We start with the job grant. Obviously, with the powers that have been devolved to Scotland, it is for them to decide should they wish to have an additional benefit, which would be under the remit of the Scottish Government to develop those, pursue those, raise the taxes for those to pursue something in their own way. I can add a little bit to that. Ministers have agreed that there's some competence that the job grant can happen under. There is a draft order being prepared and it's going between the Scotland office and the Scottish Government to just to finalise the drafting of it to make sure that it's completely in line with the powers. That's moving forward. With regard to universal credit, universal credit is a new benefit system that all parties across the house agreed with its aims and its intentions and what it was seeking to do, knowing that the legacy benefit had issues within it that could lock people out of work, particularly around the 16-hour rule. The notion that every hour of work pays, the notion that there would be an underlying support, and the issue that it wasn't just about getting people into work, it was about supporting people in their journey up through work to allow them to have career progression. That is the basis on what things moved forward. Also, understanding now that lives are more complicated with caring arrangements with children, with adults or parents, also taking into account the gig economy and how the world of work is changing in this global economy. Universal credit is very much a benefit for the future and people around the world now are coming to see how we are doing this, centering it on the individual and having a personalised benefit. Behind that comes the personalised support, which work coaches up and down the country tell me they feel that it is not only liberating for them that they can provide the support that people need, but liberating for the claimants who understand the support that they can have. What we have said as we proceed with the roll-out of universal credit, it is very much understanding how it works in the real world and how we will change and adapt as that goes forward to make it sure that it does work for claimants across the country and here in Scotland. Where we have seen that has not worked, we changed and it had changes in the budget of last year, so whether that was those freedoms with a more generous advance if people were in financial difficulty, where it was the removal of the week's waiting time and where it was a two-week housing allowance extra to allow people to move from that two-week to the month's benefit payment, those are the things that we are doing to make sure that it works for all and understanding how it works on the ground. On that issue of universal credit, I would like to follow up on Pauline McNeill's questions, if I may. Pauline McNeill pointed out that we have taken a great deal of evidence suggesting that there are real structural issues with universal credit. At heart, the white paper that launched universal credit said that no-one will experience a reduction in the benefit they receive as a result of the introduction of universal credit. The Child Poverty Action Group, the Institute for Public Policy Research, suggests that that is not the case. A one-parent family could be looking at a reduction of £2,380 a year by 2020 and a two-parent family, a reduction of £960. Indeed, Paul Gray, the chairman of the Independent Social Security Advisory Committee, has spoken about the fact that a substantial chunk of the welfare budget has been removed and that once transitional protection for those migrating from tax credits laps, he said, and I'm quoting, that a lot of people are going to realise that it is now going to be financially disadvantageous to them, and he said, that it's a problem that a major change is being introduced, which will mean that there are more losers than gainers. I'd just like to understand if you agree that people are going to be worse off under universal credit than they were previously. The Office of Budget Responsibility certainly believes that that is the case. Do you agree? I don't agree with that. What you're saying is a system in total, the support that it is providing to get people into work, the extra support for childcare costs, the increase that we're seeing in the national living wage, the increase that we're seeing in personal tax allowance, all of which are going forward. You've got to see this in the total, like 200,000 more people into work and we see that universal credit will help more people of Scotland into work. You're seeing 65 businesses created every day in Scotland since 2010 and that will increase under universal credit as we give people support. So what we're seeing is extra support going in, as you say, a transitional support for those people who move across. But at the same time, what we are doing is making sure that this benefit is fair for everybody and works on a similar way to whether you're on benefit or if you're in work. So there will be changes on the tax credits for people with more than two children. Those at the start are transitional protection. Those claiming will be protected, but we have to make sure that we've got a benefit system, not that it's separating away from people in work, but more aligning with people in work, allowing them to get a job, get on that career progression and allow them to have wage progression. For the lowest in work at the moment, you've seen the fastest pay rise in 20 years with the introduction of the living wage that we're bringing forward. So you've got to see that there's a whole support package in total. So you disagree with these expert bodies whose evidence suggests that people are actually going to be worse off. Do you disagree that there are structural issues still with this? We know that in areas where full service has been rolled out, housing debt has increased significantly. We're seeing a great increase in the use of food banks. You've spoken about the fact that the waiting time has been reduced by one week. People are still waiting for five weeks, which is a very long period on a little income. Do you not think that these are structural issues that have to be addressed, too? What has happened is if people are in need, they can have an advance. Immediately, if they need a month's money in advance, and that has now happened with the extra support that we've brought forward with the payment of rent, we've brought in a two-week rollover period for people to adjust from going from a two-week to four-week. So we listened to that, and we brought that forward, which was the right thing to do in the budget. But what we are finding out through universal credit is, I guess, what people are, or how they're already in debt, universal credit by supporting and giving advice, that a lot of the debt that you're talking about isn't new, it's historic, and therefore these work coaches can now work with people to get rid of their historic debt, and what we are seeing within four months is a third of people's debt actually reducing as we help them to understand what their payments are, understand how to get out of debt. So it's not as you're trying to portray the situation at all. And when I looked, I've been through the whole process of claiming myself, how it works, how it is done online, what people do, and what you're finding is before people would have had to have gone separately for their housing benefits, they would have had to have physically gone to all the different places to get all their money together, now it's being done online. So what you're seeing as a potential time delay, people would have had that under the legacy benefits anyway, going to all the different departments to get it. Now we can do it much easier that people don't have to do that, do it online, and at the same time, you can get that advance if it's needed to be able to pay your bills. So really, as I said, you've got to look at this as a completely new system and what it's trying to do is alleviate some of those difficulties from the legacy benefit. We've obviously taken advice from organisations like Systems Advice Bureau, and they're telling us that some of their staff, indeed, are spending a great deal of time teaching people who are not acquainted with the digital world. So there's an exclusion issue there, and just one more point I'd like to make, convener. I mean, the advance has to be repaid by people on very low incomes and is not simply the case that that is adding to their debt burden. They will be paying back the advance. There is no interest on top of that and they've got a year to pay back that advance, but the two-week roll-on for the housing benefit, they don't have to pay back, and that's a significant contribution to them. With regard to digital support, in this day and age, to be able to use technology and IT and the internet really is vital if people want to take advantage of maybe lower payment for things, if people want to be connected, if people want to be able to get a job, so this extra support that the DWP are giving through their work coaches, I'd say in a modern age and in an age where technology is everywhere, I think that extra support we're now giving is vital for those people, so they are not isolated. Can I just add to that? Most of you have been to job centres, have seen the amount of effort that we're putting in on the front line around digital support, and that's not the only thing that's happening. We pay money to local authorities to provide digital support in their localities when they go live as well. I think you're aware of all of that. We're forever reviewing and making sure that digital support is available for people. We do recognise there is a gap, but there's activity in place to help people. Our partners such as Citizens Advice Bureau and other third sector continuously work with us at a local level. If Citizens Advice are finding it difficult to provide that support, they'll be aware of the other local support from the local authorities as well. Mr Adam, do you want to deal with the supplementary? Yes, thank you. I know that you've not got much time, so I just want to ask a question pretty straight and just follow up from what my colleagues have said. Do you believe, in your opinion, that universal credit in its current form is actually fit for purpose, or does it work? As I said before, I have as much time as the committee needs me to give them, so I'm happy to answer any questions that you've got. Universal credit is fit for purpose. However, with the slow roll-out, the learn-as-you-go approach that we're doing, that is to make sure that, should there be any issues within the system that needs to be supported and altered, we've done that. We will do that because it's vital that it does work for everyone. Secretary of State, with the greatest respect, that's completely devoid from the real world because, in my constituency, I've got people who have been suffering constantly and paisley because of the roll-out. We're not even a full roll-out area. When I went along with my colleagues to Musselborough, I spoke with a gentleman, you're talking about IT support, his only communication with the DWP was through a tablet that he barely knew how to work. He was convinced that there was no one at the other end to be able to talk to him as well. My question would be, what about people at my constituent who ended up getting sanctioned because he had a heart attack in the Royal Alexander hospital? What about things like that? You're saying that it's fit for purpose, but those things keep going on all the time? Nothing seems to be changing for people in my constituency or across Scotland? What I would recommend is that, like MPs across the country and various people work with any constituent who, like you said, might have had an extreme situation because I know that you can meet and work with your work coaches who will guide you through, hold your hand to be able to support you through this system, particularly if you're not OFA with the IT system, so that support is there, so it's incumbent upon us all to make sure people who are vulnerable get that support because we need people to get that support, particularly those who are most vulnerable. That is key, and that is what we're doing. As I said, where we need to make changes, we have made those changes, and that is key. Should anybody have such an issue as you described with illness or a heart attack or a condition, something like that, they would have full mitigation and would not have any sanctions or anything imposed on them. We need to help those people and not to make it a frightening experience for them, but to make it a positive experience to get them the money they need, the support that they need, and if it's helping to work, ensure that they get that best help that they've never had before. I'm saying that in my experience that's not happening. That isn't happening out there with people who are not getting that support. As they come to our offices, our constituency offices, as their last best hope to try and help them, and by that time, there's already been problems, specifically in the case with the heart attack, which we managed to sort out ourselves, but it shouldn't get to that stage. The system should be seamless, and that's what I'm saying. Do you still believe that, after everything that you've heard that universal credit is fit for purpose? I do, because for the vast, but where you have an instance, like you've mentioned, and I would ask you today, can I have the name and address of that person, and we can support that person and make sure that all is now going well to give that extra support and certainty and find out what went wrong and how we didn't help. For the vast, vast majority of people, it is working, but in instances like that, we need to learn from that, and for it not to happen, to provide them with the support that they need. Just one final question, just the fact that to follow on from what Alison Johnson said, you keep saying that you'll try and sort out issues and that you're trying to move the universal credit forward, but are you saying that citizens advice, Scotland and all these charities, many of which are here today, are all wrong in what they're saying? That they're saying that they're having people, members of their organisations coming to them, saying that they are not getting access to what they need and it's causing financial mayhem for a lot of those people. Are they all wrong? No, what I'm saying is that for the vast, vast majority of people who we deal with, and we're dealing in the DWP with 22 million people a year, for the vast, vast majority it works, but in the instances that you're talking about, those people would reach out then to the Citizens Advice Bureau yourself and us, and therefore they will hear those stories and not from the vast, vast majority of people who benefits are working for and universal credit is working for. And as we say, we know the extra support we're providing has worked. 200,000 more people in Scotland alone in a job since 2010. 3.2 million across the UK in a job. As I said, all the numbers of extra businesses starting each day alone in Scotland 25. So the support people are getting through benefits into work is working, but where it hasn't on that very sad issue you told me about there, we have to make sure that we've got agencies in place. Of course we support Citizens Advice Bureau. But it's not a standard one issue, it's happening all over the country? We work and provide the support with Citizens Advice Bureau. We work with them closely forward those people to us, so we hear what is going on, work with those people and then get it right. I'm going to move on to a different area, Mr Tomkins. Thank you for being with us this morning. I wanted to go back to some of the issues that the convener was exploring with you right at the beginning of the session I made about the way in which DWP and Scottish Government work together in transferring what is a very significant set of responsibilities from the United Kingdom to Scotland under the Scotland Act 2016. In particular to ask if you could reflect on a story that appeared in the press just before Easter. It appeared principally in the Scottish newspaper The Daily Record in which it was claimed that at the most recent meeting of the joint ministerial working group on welfare, which you referred to in your opening statement, that Scottish Government officials have been talking with your officials to slow down the transfer of, in particular, responsibility of a disability assistance from the UK to Scotland. Are you aware, as Secretary of State of any conversations going on between Scottish Government officials and UK Government officials about the pace and slowing down the pace of the transfer of the devolved responsibilities under the Scotland Act? What we know we need to see and I wouldn't want to go on into a sort of private meeting that we had but what I do know is that we do need more detail to come through for these disability benefits. We need to know at a pace and quicker what it is that the Scottish Government would like to do with these benefits. The Scotland Act is in place. Things have moved on. We need to evolve powers to Scotland so, really, for them to be able to deliver things in a safe and timely manner and not need agencies' agreements with us which we've now got to help to give the carers allowance the extra amount to not have that. We need the information coming forward at a pace. Is it your evidence, Secretary of State, that that information is not coming forward at the moment from the Scottish Government even privately internally to DWP? We need what I've said for those benefits. We need more information coming forward and we need it coming forward quicker and with greater clarity. Given the current I mean because the nature of inter-governmental negotiations or inter-governmental communications within the United Kingdom tends to be, as you just described, private although we as the Scottish Parliament are entitled to see the minutes of a joint meeting such as the joint ministerial working group on welfare and we haven't seen the minutes of the most recent meeting yet even though that meeting was months and months ago now. As I understand it, that is because the Scottish Government have refused to sign off those minutes. That was the story in the daily record at any rate. You will know more about the nature of the Scottish Government's preparedness for the transfer of disability benefits than we are entitled to know as parliamentarians whose job it is to hold the Scottish Government to account. Can I ask you this question? Is it your view or is it the view of your department that the Scottish Government is going to be ready to deliver disability assistance in full before the next Scottish election which is scheduled to be in May 2021? Or is that in your judgment unlikely because of the slow pace that the Scottish Government are proceeding with at the present time? What I will add and maybe one of my officials would like to add to this is we will put in place should that not be the case agency agreements because what we need to make sure is that claimants in Scotland get the support they need so we do need to get that clarity get that certainty on how those changes are going to be made because for the DWP to work with people to give them that information to make sure that they've had the right time to be able to do it implement it, we need to know what that is so at the same time we will have to put measures in place to ensure that if the Scottish Government can't do it then we will no doubt end up continuing to do it through agency agreements I don't know if anybody wants to add to that so I work with the Scottish Government my opposite number so we work all the time to be considering potential plans for the future of course in terms of the first wave where everything is on track to deliver the first wave of the devolved benefits we're hoping to get clarity fairly soon as the Secretary of State says about the next wave and what that will comprise of for DWP as a student we have that information the more we can build in the time to develop the support the change the IT make sure we've got our staff trained and so forth all the things that need to happen supporting Scottish Government in whatever way we can to make that happen but it's not so until we get that clarity of detail which I'm hoping that we will get fairly soon now that will help us to decide what's going to be in the Scottish Government's plans but obviously they are Scottish Government plans Can you just specify a little bit what kind of issues it is that you need clarity about so we have a Social Security Scotland bill going through the Parliament at the moment which is a framework piece of legislation that lays out the way in which devolved social security is to be delivered in Scotland at some point in the future but there are no timelines attached to the bill of course by far the biggest single chunk is disability assistance and that's really been the focus of my questions not the wave one of powers but the disability assistance which is we're talking about something like 1.8 billion pounds of expenditure annually in Scotland alone on disability assistance all being devolved and the Scottish Government's commitment to the SNP's manifesto commitment was that that would be delivered by the Scottish Government during the lifetime of this Parliament that is to say before May 2021 before the next election the stories in the papers and I don't know if they're true or not because they're just stories in the papers but the stories in the papers suggest that there is now significant reason to doubt whether that timetable is likely to be adhered to or achieved or not and that's what I'm trying to probe away at on what we have in the DWP about the likelihood of that timetable being being realised so what kind of information is it about what the Scottish Government wants to do with disability assistance that it would need to share with you which it has not yet shared with you or indeed is not yet shared with the Parliament is it information about eligibility criteria is it information about quantum is it information about who is going to conduct we know we have a provision in the bill that says that health assessments will have to be conducted by a public employee we don't yet know who those public employees are what kind of information is it that is not being shared with DWP that would need to be shared with DWP by now in order to ensure that this ambitious timetable of the SNP is realised there's a number of things basically one of the things that we need to do in DWP is stop paying people at the point where Scottish Government are paying people so there's things that we need to do in our systems to do that so a key thing is when does that happen what's the timing for that so that we can ensure that our IT systems ensure that we don't get duplicate payments but equally one of the things that comes into play is what information Scottish Government might need from us and we might need from them because although the benefits are being devolved in quite a lot of cases we will continue to share the customer so if people are on some of the reserve benefits as well it's important to think about a information that Scottish Government might need about that in order for eligibility purposes but also equally that we have information if for example the payment of a benefit in Scotland would trigger a premium or an increase so it's about ensuring that customers are getting the right amount of money and so forth and then of course we need to be able to make sure everything's in place there's quite a lot of work that will go into making sure our staff understand that we understand what's going to happen to the customer from both sides of it so it's the detail really of that depending on how Scottish Government frames some of their assistance when you get into that detail of it it may or may not need different changes that we so it's a kind of low level but it does it's really fundamental because a lot of our systems for each of these benefits and we've kind of identified where we might need to make changes but the detail of what might need to happen and when and the sequencing is really important so that we've got a proper plan for all of that and it's integrated because of all our systems interact with all our other systems so to make it work efficiently we need that level of detail so it's that kind of thing which Scottish Government colleagues do a well aware of and that's what we talk about so as I say we're hopeful that we get a plan fairly soon so that we can build in enough time to do all of that it's a framework document so far and all of that detail the vision, how it's going to work who, I don't know, tribunals support all of these things will be in secondary legislation none of which has been seen yet and that is what needs to be crafted and shaped and where Mary there talks fundamentally about the delivery the delivery is key to a benefit that's what some of these questions have been about this morning and understanding that and making sure it works for the individual is key so that is what within your Parliament you'll have to be pressing for that vision that detail and how it's going to impact on Scottish claimants thank you very much thank you can I bring in Mr Griffin thank you for making a good morning Secretary of State if I could I'd like to go back to universal credit but to talk specifically about the flexibilities that are available to claimants in Scotland claimants in Scotland can opt to have more frequent payments and cannot to have payments of housing benefit made direct to landlords and we're told that the final costs of the WP operating those flexibilities would be available to the Scottish Government and to Parliament this month I don't know whether you're able to to give those final costs and perhaps say how those flexibilities have been operating from a DWP side well obviously we're working closely with the Scottish Government those flexibilities were brought in I think that's been positive working together on what was what was wanted and how it works there and we've been supporting them with the delivery on that and put significant sort of money into the support of these systems to make it happen Mary where are we up to then find I don't know exactly where we are but we can find out for you I don't know where we're up to in terms of information being available but we can check Of course no that will be played through presumably to the physical framework discussions isn't it but we can we'll come back to you on that Concern the operating of them Secretary of State I'll take that question so it's been really positive both our work coaches and our case managers in the service centres understand the choices that customers have in front of them the process is really simple for the customer and if they get into difficulty in understanding the information that goes in as a prompt into their journal then they've got the opportunity of phoning their case manager or talking to the work coach about it so it's an opportunity for customers who would not have normally had either more frequent payments or direct payment to landlords picked up because they didn't fit the existing criteria which is primarily around but other issues as well they've got an opportunity of identifying for themselves if they want to adopt the choices that have been presented to them OK, thank you the next area that I would like to see and I think there's a majority in this Parliament on the universal credit flexibilities would be automatic split payments I mean we have people who suffer from domestic abuse and domestic abuse takes many forms it could be mental, physical, sexual but often there is a financial element to domestic abuse and the last thing that I think anyone would want to see is a social security system which enables financial domestic abuse to take place are you able to say Secretary of State whether you support the automatic splitting of payments across the UK and how far along are the discussions between the Scottish Government and the DWP to implement automatic split payments in Scotland, regardless of whether that will take place right across the whole of the UK I wouldn't be looking for automatic split payments but what we have done is ensure where in certain circumstances people do need a split payment or the issues you raise that will happen but the benefit has been designed to look at the needs of a household looking at the whole family that is the children within it that's the parents within it to make sure they understand the money that's coming into the house the expenditure from that house and as I said looking at the support in the totality to making sure that you help people into work making sure educational attainment and standards of the children are as high as they can possibly be so we're looking at the family unit or the household unit to support them as best as possible so we wouldn't be looking to automatically split those but what we are doing is providing that split that separation as it were of the funds where we know it is required separately as I mean I don't agree I think to alleviate the problem of financial domestic abuse I think you have to automatically split I think whether there is an abused person in a household they leave themselves open to further abuse if they were to come forward and to ask for a split I think to stop that situation aside from that it's clear that the Scottish Government's position and many within this Parliament is that we do believe in automatic split payments and that there is the flexibility within universal credit for the Scottish Government to take those forward so how have those discussions been progressing to allow that next stage of universal credit flexibility to operate within Scotland I'll pass to Mary there but one thing I will say and speaks with the work coach were very good at sign posting people to third parties to charities to various other help they might need and within disclosure that they might need a separation of payment actually it could be the first time they get this extra help and support be able to speak to somebody else obviously not the DWP person but this third party, this charity and actually that has been revolutionary to be able to help people get the support they might not be getting in their family unit which you might not now get with just an automatic separation of funds that's just another way of looking at the extra help that our work coaches are giving in terms of the use of the further elements of the universal credit flexibility choices I believe that officials from both departments are continuing to work on the technical detail I think that it's particularly complex this one to actually do but I think that Scottish Government officials are talking to the UC programme about that and you know do you have any timetable or any expectation of when that can be delivered? I don't have a timetable okay thank you Mr McPherson thank you good morning all welcome to the Scottish Parliament it's good to see here after your predecessor came as well I think that before I ask my questions I'd just like to state that all of the criticisms around the table here are not directed to DWP staff on the ground who I know in the most part are trying to do a good and difficult job however I'd like to pick up on some of the points about universal credit and also some of the points that my colleague Mark Griffin has just raised there I presume by being here today Secretary of State that you see the evolution of social security as a priority however the delay that there's been in and the admission of the delay in allowing the Scottish Government to take forward its policy to abolish the bedroom tax its source says to me that there isn't a plan, a proper plan to prioritise social security and to enable the Scottish Government to fulfil its policy objectives the fact that you and officials there were unable to answer really important questions about universal credit flexibilities in terms of the frequency of payment and payment to landlords worries me greatly the fact that split payments which my colleague rightly said is a real priority across parties in this Parliament the fact that there's no timetable for enabling that to happen is concerning and all of this together says to me that there seems to be a continual pushback from the DWP to enabling social security devolution to happen in Scotland there doesn't seem to be plans and it doesn't seem to be a priority and I think that requires reflection on the basis of this meeting and some serious prioritisation of these issues I appreciate that you've got a lot on your plate at the moment departments in real crisis with cases that have come forward on PIP and other matters that have arisen in recent months but this needs to be a priority and I would welcome your thoughts on that before I ask my next question Well obviously you need reassurance on what is going on because there is certainly no pushback that has gone ahead the Scotland Act has gone through the extra support that Scotland Government Scotland is needed to allow for these flexibilities has happened those flexibilities are there the extra powers that have gone to Scotland so whether they want to add to a benefit whether they want to create a new benefit whether they want to pay additional payments to a benefit are all there and at the disposal of the Scottish Parliament to take control of and move forward so the devolution has gone through there and then as you say when we work together on reserved matters obviously understanding the sort of complexities of systems of IT systems of working together yes we've got to work through them in time to be able to do that and that's why I said we are working regularly there is a team of senior officials meeting every month ministers are meeting quarterly lots of information has come across there has been project days working days continually going forward so actually people are working at a pace but what I do and I had mentioned before we need is the specific detail on certain matters that we are waiting for to be able to put these forward in a timely way but definitely and as you said that's why I'm here today to say that that is right whilst I agree in the union I do understand there is an appetite for greater devolution on the ground to make it work for Scotland and that's exactly what I'm here to agree to and make sure that we're doing sure and I welcome the fact that respect it deserves and that it is more than Lincoln County Council is with all respect to Lincoln County Council that one of your colleagues made reference to this Parliament being synonymous with but I think what I'd be really what I'm really looking for secretary of state and what this Parliament well many members of this Parliament and certainly many members of the Scottish public who are looking for is a timetable a commitment for ready to providing detail of when the flexibilities are in universal credit in terms of regularity of payment and payment to landlords and welcome that correspondence coming as soon as possible but we need a commitment on split payments and we need a commitment to bringing forward the ability for the Scottish Government to abolish the bedroom taxes source much sooner than May 2020 that's a delay previously that there was an assumption that that would happen quicker well I answered that at the start you have the commitment we are doing that it was never agreed to be earlier but we said we'd work together to do it as soon as possible discretionary housing payments are there at the moment which is how it is being resolved so all of these matters are being done now they are being dealt with now it was just the extra bit of changing the IT for UC that we always said would have to be done as soon as possible but these issues that you're talking with are being dealt with I know Denise you wanted to say a few words so just for clarity more frequent payments and direct payments to landlords those choices are in the bit that isn't a transfer of money well to be honest that's in the background the important thing is that we've responded we've changed the systems and they're operational for customers in Scotland so those things are in and I just want to re-clarify those two items have been operating now for a roundabout where it's from January and as you said the bit was what was the cost of that which we can clarify for you but actually having delivered it Government has delivered it with and for Scotland because we said we would and it's now in place well obviously I welcome that and I think that's demonstrative of the fact that split payments can be made to happen if there's a commitment on both sides to work together to deliver that as quickly as possible and similarly that the benefit the abolition of the benefit of tax at source could be done in a quicker way when there's a focus on the determination on both sides I just wanted to also say Secretary of State welcome your step away from the fact the commitment to ending housing benefit for 18 to 21 year olds I think that was a very strong opposition to that policy in this Parliament and that was a very welcome move that you stepped away from that because of the wrongheadedness of that policy and the fact that it wasn't really delivering anything positive for the taxpayer or in causing suffering to those affected in a similar way as Alison Johnson pointed out you should reconsider advances on universal credit while there's been a commitment to bringing those forward in a more timious manner and more effective manner the fact that those are still advances that have to be repaid is something that is from our experience the evidence that we've taken detrimental and in a similar way the whole ethos of universal credit is based in my view and the views of many on suspicion and assuming the worst in people instead of encouragement and help which is a word you used earlier there are people in the back of the audience behind you who've either campaigners or individuals who'd suffered greatly the hands of welfare reform agenda there are constituents who've cried in front of me in surgeries and I know colleagues have been the same this is a wrong-headed policy in the way that in the ethos that it's being approached at the moment and in the same way that you've changed your position on housing benefit for 18 to 21-year-olds my plea in good faith is that you take away from this committee to look again at universal credit and change it to be a supportive system rather than a cynical and critical system and as well I ask this to your predecessor and I want to ask it to you as well today first of all to rethink because of the the consequences that it's having and also the fact that you're on course to make more savings through social security now than you were and so the need for austerity is significantly less if there was a need for one at all but also I want to give you the opportunity to apologise to the people behind you the people across my constituency and the people across Scotland who've suffered greatly through the mistakes of social security reform welfare reform and I think are due that apology from the DWP for the suffering and distress that's being caused to them the aim for universal credit is that it is a supportive system that there is support whether that's into work or whether that is support if you can't get into work with social security payments there so can we suspend please suspend it to session and please continue and what we were saying was universal credit is a supportive system and that's what it aims to be but I am not oblivious to people who are incredibly vulnerable or who are in need and obviously the gentleman felt he needed to have his points said about something that was very important to him about somebody who was very vulnerable but what we aim to do with the money we spend from DWP which is nearly £200 billion per year the department is the size of a country the size of Portugal or of Greece or of Chile this is the kind of support we are giving 80,000 people working there to make sure that we reach out to the most vulnerable so we do that if anybody doesn't get that support it is not through lack of trying because that's what people are employed to do is to reach out and support people it is important that we hear every instance and it is important that we work as hard as we possibly can to support everybody who needs our help but it is about making sure we have the most effective system to help people and employ the most dedicated people in our job centres to help people and that is what we do and we have as best oversight as we possibly can learning from it all the time as best as we possibly can I'm really conscious of time and I've got two other members who want to come in on your areas so I think we've covered that area quite a sense of the Mr Johnson you wanted to come in on sorry I thought you had another area to come in I listened carefully to what he said to the committee about the good points about the universal credit system and I do agree that the reason for introducing it that it could be much more flexible is a good one but so far you don't seem to have acknowledged any of the questions put to you and any of the evidence that there has been you surely must have heard the same evidence as we have heard for example it is a fact that on housing benefit alone in Scotland those who transfer to universal credit are £24 a week worse off so surely there must be an acceptance that there's a lot more fixing to do than you've acknowledged to the committee already I mean that's just housing others as you've heard on the table this morning the increase in the number of food banks in areas where universal credit has been rolled out has definitely increased so the idea is right and like Ben Macpherson I welcome that you're the secretary of state that has began to fix some of this as you did in doing the right decision enrolling back the decision for 16 to 24 which we all welcome but there's more fixing to be done if universal credit is to be a better system and surely you would accept that there's much more fixing to do and the housing figure alone I think speaks for itself I am listening to the issues that people raise whether it is the citizens advice bureau whether it is the trust all trust whether it is action groups on the ground that's what I spend most of my day doing is meeting with those people meeting with claimants to see where is it working how could we make it better how could we implement or alter some of some of the conditions of universal credit and you'll see those have changed where we felt it wasn't working to make sure it did and as I've said you've got to look in the round too so when I look at how things have changed from 2010 to now in Scotland and I see that unemployment has nearly halved when I look at the child poverty statistics in Scotland and it has decreased across all four of the main measures between the three years between 2016-17 compared to the three years between 2009-10 and when I meet with and work with the all parliamentary party group on hunger and look at the reports from Trussell Trust and Oxford University who talk about the overlaying and the complex reasons behind people going to food banks and how we need to support people going forward and whether that is in debt management whether that is in support we're trying to do all of those and I do see positive figures from Scotland of people in work creating businesses the fact that those have dropped. Fair enough but do you accept that there is detriment to many people too? The figure that I use is a real figure that those who have transitioned to universal credit on average are £24 worse on their housing benefit element. Does that not suggest that there is a structural problem because the promise that was made was that when you transition to universal credit system that wouldn't affect your overall income that was a promise that was made but as I keep saying you can't unlock how the economy is changing because social security the economy people in work all are linked together and what we're seeing is employment going up what we're seeing is unemployment going down what we're seeing is the highest wage rises or the fastest wage rises for the lowest in society through the introduction of the national living wage we're also seeing we're taking people out of taxation removing people from paying taxation altogether so all of those changes There's no detriment you don't think that people who have transitioned is that what you're saying to the committee today you don't see that there has been any detriment you only see the good side of what you're seeing to the committee today I see what everybody saw was the legacy benefits that were in place were not working they were locking people into unemployment at the 16 hour rule these things and cases that you are raising now they existed in the legacy benefits what we're seeing is an improvement from those legacy benefits to a new modern more simplified and swifter system so that's what we're moving towards making what was there better and to try and indicate that the legacy benefits were better is not true and also what you're seeing overlaying this is the extra support and the growth of the economy here on the ground and you've got to take all those component parts and we've got to do the best we can in the position we are to make a better system for the people who are claiming and that's what we're doing we're all on a journey we're on a journey together to make everybody's lives the best they can but that's to help them into work that's to help with job progression that's to give better education and to improve people's lives we do know that we're in a bit tight for time but another area is fine good morning Secretary of State and thank you again for coming this morning I have two quick questions if that's okay the first one is in regard to following all my questions from Adam Tomkins around PIP and DLA and attendance allowance obviously we haven't yet seen the regulations of how it will work in practice but if we end up with different criteria for people getting PIP what difficulties do you foresee will cause that for DWP and how much work will be involved in providing the information to Scottish Government in regard to that and the second question is just changing the subject completely in that employability I think we all agree that the best way out of poverty for everyone is employability for individuals and for families one of the areas that I have a concern is around disability and I know your department is doing work on that but a number of employers have spoken to me recently about how there is obviously division between employment law devolved and non-devolved and Scottish Parliament or Scottish Government have their website with information about employability on theirs and you have stuff on that would there be a possibility of a conversation between the two Governments about bringing together information so that there is a single portal that employers and employees can go to to find out what both Governments are doing so that devolution isn't stopping people getting into employment so in terms of the obviously it is entirely for Scottish Government to decide what they want to do in the areas that are being devolved so in a sense the main thing is are there elements of the eligibility which would require information from DWP because they relate to other parts of the system so that's part of it and I guess the other part of it would be how our set of premiums support we pay in some of our means tested benefits relates to current eligibility so one of the things we would need to work out is what impact that that might have on the allocation of premiums so that would be the kind of example where you could see how either it's information flows and understanding exactly what would be required but also the way it feeds into the other benefits as I was mentioning we've been talking and working with Scottish Government on the wave 1 which includes the carers allowance supplement which we're going to be supporting Scottish Government to pay in the summer but also the best grant for maternity and funeral payments through all of those we work out as they work through the detail of their policy what might be required of the department in terms of information but also has it got any wider impacts that we need to take into account so those would be the kind of things working together that's exactly what we want to do so if we could work together and create a portal obviously we've done that with a landlord portal that's what we should be looking to do Can I just come in there, Secretary of State? So we work within Business Enterprise Scotland and also S Skills Development Scotland so we've got the relationships to actually come together so if you're signalling something that needs to be looked at as Secretary of State says I don't see a problem in us coming together and finding the right vehicle because we put access to for example Schools Development website into our work coaches so that we've actually got the right information because it's different to England and Wales so yeah, absolutely Thank you I think this is going to be a final question very briefly Mr Johnson, thanks I think it's fair to say that there's almost universal condemnation of the two child limit on tax credits within this Parliament and we're speaking about how universal credit is progressive I think that this policy shows that there is a case but you'll be aware that there are assessors in Scotland who will not take part in this policy so I'd like to know if there are plans to publish statistics showing the number of people affected by the two child limit in universal credit and whether there is any evidence of a lower take-up of exceptions in Scotland due to the exception forms not being completed The claimants who are on those benefits will continue getting benefits and obviously the child benefit itself will continue for every child it's the tax credit element that will change and this has been worked out on the basis that people who are claiming have the same considerations of those people who are working and paying for their bills so it is again looking for a fairness between people who are claiming and people who are working that they're all considering and making the same decisions in life but as I said the child benefit will continue for every number of children it will be looking at the tax credit changes there but you'll be aware that the Scottish Women's Aid and Rape Crisis Scotland for example have refused rightly in my view to act as third party referers so is your Government undertaking any research at all to see whether or not that will impact on entitlement in Scotland and what you're referring to there is the understanding that the Government and the extra support the Government's put in place that they weren't able to make decisions over how many children they've had and they have indeed got extra children so more support will be put there and we've said we'll make allowances in those instances and you're right we've said we will refer people so personal questions aren't asked from the DWP staff or HMT staff and we'll refer them and work with whether that is third party groups as you mentioned or it could be health professionals or it could be other suitable people who could help people I do hope that some of those organisations don't decide not to work with us because what we're doing is providing extra help and support to those people who do but we will continue working to make sure that the people who need to get it and maybe it will be through other organisations and an extra route but of course we will closely monitor that situation I mean do you as a minister really you actually are comfortable with the idea that a woman has to prove non consensual conception in order to access an entitlement What we're doing is providing extra help where people have got more children that they couldn't have planned and we're providing that extra support there will be no questions like that asked as I said from the DWP or from HMT and people will be supported and shown to the various other organisations and again this could give them an opportunity to talk about maybe something that's happened that's never had before so it is potentially double support there, them getting the money they need and maybe an outlet which they might possibly need but it's potentially also incredibly invasive and upsetting if women are being forced to put on the record situation or circumstance that they wish to remain entirely private in order to access entitlement there will be no invasive or delving questions asked, as I said they will speak to people they've obviously come forward with this reasoning and for this extra support and it will be done in the most sensitive manner that is obviously key to what is happening here but it is in the light of providing this extra financial support that they seek thank you can we suspend again we go back into session please can I thank the Secretary of State and her officials for their attendance we very much value this opportunity for this dialogue between us and look forward to that happening again I'm sure there's many areas that perhaps we haven't covered in detail and I would welcome the opportunity for the committee to write to you any further follow-up questions thank you I'm formally closing the meeting the next official meeting will be on 3 May as next week we have the stage 3 debate on the social security bill and to close the meeting