 Alright, welcome everybody to the November 2nd hyperledger technical oversight committee call. Two things that we have to be aware of and abide by on this call. The first is the antitrust policy. So this is a policy that basically says there are a number of people on this call from different organizations. And we must be aware of and not participate in any activities that are prohibited under any of the antitrust and competition laws across the world. The second thing that we have to abide by on the call is our code of conduct, which is linked specifically in the agenda. Basically says be respectful of others on the call of their ideas and opinions. And everything should be fine. The announcements today we have the standard Dev Weekly developer newsletter that goes out each Friday to hundreds of developers. If you do have anything that you would like to include in that newsletter, please do leave a comment on the link that's in the agenda. The second announcement is that on Thursday, November 16. We do have a workshop that is atomic cross ledger transactions between hyperledger basu and quarter ledgers using hyperledger cacti version two. And if you are interested in attending that workshop, please do click on the link in the agenda and register for that event. The announcement that is not on here, but it's probably something that is worth mentioning is that the voting period for the hyperledger technical oversight committee for 2024 has kicked off. So if you have received a ballot, please do cast your vote. I don't have until I think November 14 to do that. So that would be a Tuesday. And, you know, have a have a look at the candidates that are linked in the GitHub repo, the governance repo to see what their, what each of the candidates is all about. Other announcements that anybody would like to make today. Nope. Okay. So we do have the hyperledger saw to the reports that is out there. We do not have enough votes on that. At least not as of yesterday when I, the other day when I put this together. So please, if you haven't yet taken a look at this, please do take a look at it and add your comments, but feedback and potentially approval to that report. If you think it's looks good. Any, any questions on the sautees report for those of us who've had a chance to review it. No. Okay. So we do have four reports that are due next week. On the night. They are the non creds areas, Indy and the Roja reports. So if you are responsible for those please do have a look at putting those together. I do know I've seen at least in the chat that Steven is working on the first three. And it looks like Victor is going to thumbs up there for the Roja one so I will look to see those coming in next week. Great. So for discussion items today. There's two items on the agenda. The first is to talk about any actionable items for the to see from the San Francisco member summit that anybody who attended might have heard. And the second one is to talk about our best practices for automated pipelines task force. So this first item on the discussion list is intended to just obviously not talk about what anybody specifically said, but to talk about things that you may have heard at the San Francisco member summit that you think is one worthwhile for the to see to talk about. And then secondly, to see if there's anything that we think might be actionable for the to see to take as a as an action item moving forward. So I know a few of us were there. Maybe I'll open the floor to see if anybody has any specific thoughts before I add mine. So let me let me add a couple things that I heard. And then we can maybe talk about if there's something that we think we can do about that, or, or not. So, one of the things that I thought was take away from the conversations that I had is that there's still a question about how to relate to the Hyperledger Foundation. Right. So, you know, what is the what is the process are there, you know, different mechanisms obviously we've got labs and top level projects that can come in. So there was a, you know, a couple of folks in the member summit who weren't necessarily aware of the different processes that we have. There's a possibility for us to figure out if there's something that we can do to potentially help that for new folks who are coming into the foundation. The second thing that I heard surrounding that same thing is not only the how but the why. And I know that David Boswell had given us a presentation few months back about kind of the why it's important to contribute to open source. And I think, you know, potentially there's something that we could do around that particular item of bringing, bringing that discussion to a wider audience, other than just the TOC, who obviously, you know, added to that knows kind of why it's important. So those are two of the first things that I've heard that I thought were interesting from the Hyperledger member summit. Any thoughts on those items. Yeah, I'm really glad to hear that I wasn't in that session that you mentioned because there were just for the people who weren't there there were some parallel sessions that were going on. So I missed that one that you were referring to Tracy, but I'm glad to hear there is interest in why I think, you know, it's easy to assume that maybe everybody kind of understands the why but to have people say that, you know, they would be helpful for them to understand that is, is useful to hear and you know, as you say we've done some of that this year but it sounds like for next year we definitely need to do more so that's helpful to hear. Yeah, David, I'm wondering, you know, is there mechanisms to get that presentation to a wider audience that you presented to us is there ways to, you know, have we written a blog post up about this you know what are the mechanisms I guess for specific items that we could do is takeaways. Yeah, I'm sure there certainly are I mean I'd be curious to hear from people what what format it would be useful and I mean I think a lot of this is content that maybe it's helpful for people to take internally like I'm happy to do another presentation I'm happy to do a blog post but I think it might be. And maybe I'm wrong about this but my assumption is maybe it's information that somebody who's interested in getting their organization to contribute would take and have a conversation internally so. And again, if that's the case, let me know what what's the right format and how would it be useful to empower those people like what's the right way to structure what's the right way to you know, you know, give it to those people who want to have those internal conversations. That's an assumption I'm making maybe that's true maybe it's not that's why I'd be interested in to hear from people here like if it's useful for you to have that why conversation internally what. What sort of material would be helpful for you to have that conversation. Happy. Thanks Tracy on I find like from an educational perspective and that was your first point is how to, you know, get that information to the people who need it on how to contribute on the different levels. And this is just something that I find when on community building is that if you have like say the first Wednesday of the month. Welcome to the community session and it's consistent on that first Wednesday, you'll find people who have questions will make that event, and then David's great presentation could be then you know whatever you want to give them but I find if there's a consistent time for people and they say oh yeah it's coming up it's coming up I'll I'll make that rather than to reach out to David and say David I don't know how to contribute can you teach me. That's just a thought. Thanks for that body and David I think to your other point. I do know that it is important for there to be somebody internally to organizations that can help people through the process. And then don't feel like they have to continue to reach out to, you know, the hyper ledger staff or somebody in the hyper ledger community with questions that they think are fairly basic right that they, they, they should figure out why I like your idea, you know, is a playbook or something that could be put together. That would help these people start to have those conversations are doing it. I mean, part of the problem is, is if nobody knows about it in the organization and it's hard to have that internal person but if, if you do have an internal person that's been through the open source process before and other places and it tends to be an easier sort of thing and so you know there's, I think there's two different types of people or audiences that we have to account for in that thing, which is the, you know, maybe people who have been involved in open source and other projects and just need the hours hyper ledger different or same. And then there's the, I don't know anything about open source and what are the first steps that I should be taking as I try and figure out like, what do I need to do, right. So I need to talk to the legal department I need to get, you know, some sort of agreement from somebody a sponsor, you know things like that that I think would be useful to obviously have. And so, yeah, I guess, having a thought through the different sorts of folks that something might be useful for. That's a good point I mean we can't treat all organizations the same because they might be at different places right so what what may be helpful for one person and one organization might not be the right way to approach others so I mean I think that's all good feedback and and yeah again if you have any if anybody here on the call has specific suggestions or ideas I'm certainly open to it but this will be something so we're going to take feedback from member summit and go into our staff planning call for 2024 next week so yeah any these sorts of conversations ideas are going to be really helpful for us so yeah I will definitely bring up the we need to do more why. In that discussion about 2024. All right, Peter. I will put down a quick suggestion on what to put in the document. I think licensing would be one of the front and center things because if somebody is trying to advocate for this internally. Probably one of the first questions they will ask themselves is how how am I going to explain to our legal department what is going to happen. And if they don't know the intricacies of the licensing if they are aware of all the reasons why we use Apache to. They may not be able to articulate that as well as it possibly could. So the document could help them with that specific thing, for example. Yeah Peter I think that's a great example I remember having a conversation with some lawyers about what was Apache to and what did it mean for patterns and things like that so I think that's definitely a really is a conversation that will happen. In the reaction to the government being on that contributions discussion was was pretty good. So perhaps two things. One is a specific focus on the benefits of open source, you know open by default for governments in general. So that's one and then the second would be those with influence within governments, promoting open source by government as as an approach. So I think both of those methods could be useful and in showing a particular governments how to move forward in the open world. So it's something that obviously DC government does very well. And I'm sure a lot of folks could learn from what you guys are doing there. You know, I do think that the open by default is is a extremely useful sort of idea. And I think the, you know, very similar to to what you say, right. I think that sponsorship of having somebody who thinks that open source is important is important regardless of whether it's government or business. And so hot one how do you find that sponsor and to, you know, what would that sponsor need to be doing in order to make sure that open source is successful at a particular organization. Other thoughts on this topic or any other topics that people who attended the San Francisco member summit may have taken away. I had a couple of other thoughts from a couple other sessions. There were two other sessions I went to that I did think there were some interesting discussions that might be relevant for the Tuesday one was the kind of the evolution of fabric and I was really encouraged by that session. And so for the people who weren't there, it was, it was a really nice mix it wasn't only the existing fabric contributors and maintainers there were some people who are new relatively new to the community new to fabric, who really wanted to step up and get involved. So I thought that was a really nice takeaway that, you know, we can get more people involved and there are people out there who do want to step up and take a leadership position so two of the three facilitators. The member summit, again, relatively new to the community that was Sam from go ledger and Svetans from Senefi. So it was really great to see them wanting to really help take a leadership position and then Dave in your it was there, and he did a really great job of setting up the discussion he did a mapping exercise. And so this is one of the points I wanted to reference. He, you know, there's a lot going on in the community around fabric it's not only fabric you know there's other projects or other labs that are related to it. And so he did a mapping exercise he put all that together in one place and really showed hey these are the different pieces and here is how they fit. And that was really valuable so that you know I think we still need to do some work about figuring out where that lives and then doing some promotions around that but we heard from people there hey this was really valuable. But I thought it was really instructive that there were people who had been in the community for a while and didn't know about many of those things they may have known about some of those things but not all of them. And then we heard from people who are new to the community and it's like hey I started using fabric and didn't know about any of these things because it wasn't really clear right you go to the fabric project and you think that's all there is about fabric right so we heard from I've been using fabric for months and I finally found out about this one lab and it was usually beneficial for me right like a cut down the amount of time that I had, you know, to spend on doing a thing so, you know that mapping exercise was useful and I heard from other people there you know the mapping for fabric has been done but maybe the thing for the to see is to consider, are there other places where we want to do that ecosystem mapping because I had one person in that session say hey this would be really useful for for Bezu right, and maybe it would be really useful to have a mapping of the identity ecosystem or maybe, you know, maybe there's other ecosystems that would be useful to, to map and and to provide, you know, for people so that that's one take away. It seemed to be a very useful thing to do for fabric maybe there's other things we the to see would want to do that same sort of thing for. And then part two of that once you have that map, you know I think some some things become more obvious so when Dave did that mapping. It was very clear that there were a few different efforts that were very similar to each other that we could. You know, try to make an attempt to drive some, you know, to facilitate some discussions and see if we could drive some collaboration very much like what happened around cacti and weaver and interoperability. So maybe, you know, we could do the same thing where we bring those together so that was one of the sessions and I can talk about another session to but I want to see if Dave has anything to add to that but I do think that mapping exercise. Very, very useful. Maybe we want to do it for more projects, but Dave, do you have anything else to add on that fabric one. I think you covered it extremely well. I would like to figure out where and all that lives so we can share that with the to see maybe in a future call. Right. Yeah, that was my question. I wanted to see if we could get a preview of that, at least to, you know, see what this mapping exercise looks like. I think maybe to give people some ideas for how that might work out in other areas. Given a thumbs up so I think, you know, once you guys get that in a place that we can take a look at it, maybe we add that to a future to a C call just to take a look at it or something like that. Yeah. Yeah, I don't know Dave if you want to, you know, we could maybe share that next week or something or or but yeah I'll follow up with you over discord and we can talk more about where it lives and everything. Sure. And again, I, you know, I think it's up for this group to decide but maybe again, there are maybe other places where that mapping exercise would be helpful. The other session I went to was called reducing the cost of deployment and there was a number of different discussions there. But there were two things that again I thought were relevant for this group. One was we heard from people say there's some gaps in the technology like hey when I'm wanting to deploy something. It would be really helpful to have this thing or this other thing so, you know, they, I've, I've encouraged those facilitators to document that and maybe we can invite them to a future to a C call for them to share like exactly what they heard about what those missing gaps were. I don't want to, you know, kind of speak on their behalf but I heard some people say that hey it would be helpful to have something or a key management or hey it would be helpful to have something around zero knowledge proofs, you know, right. So, what are those people who are trying to deploy things do in those cases when they feel like hey there's this missing piece so I don't know if there's a kind of, again, the facilitated discussion between them and the TOC like how what do we do with when we hear that there's a gap what do we do about that right it says basically the high level that I thought maybe the TOC would work on I know we did that project gap task force. Maybe every year and a half plus right now is that like an ongoing effort or do we need to do that on a repeating basis maybe every year every two years we need to kind of re as that re look at gaps so anyway that was one takeaway that I heard people say there were some technology gaps and it would be great if these other projects existed, or other labs existed. David on that particular one. No yes we did do the project gaps but I don't think we ever figured out how to fill those gaps. The step that needs to be taken. Sure. Once we once we figure out what the gaps are. How do we figure out one what exists out there today. And is there something that we can go have a conversation with the folks who are maintaining that currently. Or are we already having conversations with those folks right. I think you know there's a in the open wallet foundation. There is what we're calling an OID for VC task force and there's two things that they're kind of focusing on. One is educating people well about what OID for VC is. And the second thing is to go out and actually do a survey of what's out there. And really take a look at what's open source what licenses they're using. What features do they have available. Because what they want to do from this task force is go out and reach out to the people who are obviously maintaining these projects and see if they can bring those into the open wallet foundation as a project as a place where people can already have something that's available. Obviously, you know if there's nothing that's available then there's a question of from the people who are involved in this task forces are some project that they would like to start together. I think that's, you know, for this particular task force obviously it's not the case there's a ton of things that are out there focused on this. So I really think that we could do something that is we have a gap we know about a gap with somehow find out about that gap and then we create some sort of task force that is specifically focused on getting the code into the Hyperledger foundation for that gap. Yeah, be that either through something that already exists or through creation of a new lab slash project. Yeah, that's a great idea I mean you're right you're right and I agree with you it's not just enough to rerun that gaps task force because you're right that it was missing that other piece but yeah the gaps task force plus that the piece you're just talking about from open wallet seems very powerful. And again if it's helpful for the to see I can invite those facilitators to come to the session and have them share more about what the gaps they were seeing, but but that was one takeaway. And then the other one was and I think Dave you had a good point there and if I miss kind of quote you step in but you were talking about how now that we have had people doing a lot of deployments in different spaces it would be helpful to look at those different deployment patterns in a given area, and then see what we could do to kind of help people replicate or repeat those patterns. So in my mind maybe that's documentation or a lab or white paper or what have you. But like, you know, again we've had a lot of supply chain deployments at this point we've had a lot of you know different deployments at this point like how do we, and I think you would reference grid as a good example like is there a project or resource that's like hey if you're doing a deployment on this thing. Here's a thing you can use to help you get there quicker right so. So again I don't know if that's a task force or what but maybe some sort of a pattern. Pattern creation or power whatever we call it pattern you know some sort of thing to help identify and help people kind of leverage all the work that's been done before, you know, around these different types of uses. So did that kind of capture your point or did is that not quite what you were going for. And that's a question for David. Yeah, sorry. I think I think that was it. I'm still thinking about the fabric session sorry. Oh, no worries, no worries, but I didn't think you had a good point I mean we have I mean, how do we help people leverage all the work that's been done in the space I do like the idea of that patterns, you know, patterns exercise. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Peter. I was thinking about case studies in general just tying back to the answering the why question. But what I was struggling with as I was thinking about it is that a lot of the things that would answer the question why are just really hard to measure, or it's not something that people would be willing to publish. But for going all that if there were members of the foundation who would be willing to participate in some sort of. Yeah, we do have the podcast so if if the podcast could do with someone willing an interview about the why and how they benefited from it. That could also be part of the content that helps people advocate internally, because then they have something to point to saying. These are the benefits because these other companies these other members of the foundation had done this and this and that's how it had gone better. But before we actually go there, we do have to figure out what those measurable objectives would be, which is very hard and I'm yet to come up with specific things for that because from my perspective, it's all very subjective but I could tell you personally is that well it increases developer productivity it increases developer morale because there's open source things versus proprietary and people are way more engaged internally with things that there's a chance they could contribute back to things like that but I couldn't, for example, touch it from the business side. On a different topic. I've heard in the Bezu session conversation but the possibility of putting together a mechanism between the project and the foundation or collecting funding for a specific for purpose and then considering contributors. So funding a an open source contribution for some specific goal. This is something we've talked about in the communities I've been a part of for for a while. I'm hoping that is it is moving forward and moving along but I think that could be very helpful for your for some communities. I don't know where where exactly that lies and, and, you know, how real it is but I'm certainly hoping it's real. Yeah, yeah, I was in that session soon you're right there was a lot of interest around that so thanks for flagging that Steven yeah and mine. I mean I think hard story person to answer that he's been closest to it. He's unfortunately not on this particular call he's got a conflict today at another event but yeah I mean it is real and maybe we can have him share about that at an upcoming call. You know one of the things I found interesting about that basic session was the focus on enterprise, you know enterprise requirements, gathering those requirements and then developing the source for those requirements right. So, you know, I really think, obviously, you know, we do already have a number of people who are probably providing input and feedback and future requests to our projects. I just thought it was interesting that they were doing it in a special interest group as a mechanism to really drive. People who are interested in coming together and having those discussions and doing the prioritization right to help figure out what is the most important thing for the group of people who are involved in that special interest group so, you know, I don't, I don't think there's any specific action item for the TOCO not one but I do think that there is an interesting pattern that is forming there that potentially other projects could use within the Hyperledger Foundation. Yeah, I definitely think that pattern is very important I mean we've thought at a high level how to do it but you know how you govern the funding and and how decisions are made is pretty important in figuring that out making sure every you know these are crossed and eyes are dotted so you know it doesn't have to be perfect out of the gate but but just to have that example out there and then solidify it would be super helpful I think. Yeah, no I agree with you Steven the details matter and I think getting in I don't want to speak for heart but I think that's where things are like trying to just make sure the you know we've reviewed this enough and have a confidence that this is the right setup so just taking a little bit of time. Anything else that anybody took away from the San Francisco member summit that would be useful for people to either hear about or things that we might want to take actions on. Okay, well I think this is a really good discussion and I think we should. There are definitely some items here that we can think about moving forward. Taking some action on and seeing how we can move this forward. So I guess with that the next item on our agenda is the best practices for automated pipelines task force. So Peter, this is up to you to give us an update on where things are at and see if there's anything that you want the to see to reflect on or respond to. Okay, I will put the forums link to chat in a second. So to catch up everyone. Peter, do you want to drive? Do you want to share your screen or do you want me to keep this page up? Oh yeah, if I could share it with you. So to catch up people from last time, we were working on a survey specifically about automation and I left it open for comments and editing for everyone. So by now, I will say it have reached the final form and if everyone's okay with it, we could publish it to maintainers of all the projects and then see how many responses we get. And then what I was going, it says disabled share. Thank you. Yes, so I will put the link of this in the chat and from my perspective, it is ready to go. But I did want to give everyone another chance to comment request changes that we could do live right here right now. And if not, then then it's published time. So does anyone have any thoughts on that with the default being that it's published time. Peter, can you remind us we're sending this up to the maintainers, is that right? Yeah, the plan is to first trust the maintainers and then based on the answers you get there, you can decide if you want to reach out to every contributor or whoever we can access as well. If we just stop with the maintainers because it also depends on how difficult it will be the process to data. How many conclusions do we feel like we can draw from it. Maybe based on the answers will determine that we would like to have more answers maybe we'll say oh this this is enough. Just this one comment can we convert some of these questions into from radio box into checkboxes with multi select options. Yes, I can do that right now which one. I'm interested in questions related to projects that ask where we're asking which package repository do you use or which dependency tool do you use this possibility that the project teams maintain multiple. At least on the code blockchain side there are like SDK projects where they deal with multiples of that. I want checkboxes. I agree that makes sense. So registries, package manager, checkboxes, preferred package registry. I mean maybe even this could be maybe they have a short list of top three. Maybe not. This is definitely a radio box. Yeah, this is yeah. Are these the ones that you're thinking about? Right. The package registry the the one that you already changed and then think there was one more thing about preferred package registry. This one. Okay, cool. If there's no other feedback then we can publish this and then analyze the data. And the other thing that I was going to post again is the link to the wiki page, which is this one. And then if you click through to the draft and this is where we are at. So it's a checklist and this is still not ready yet. It's a work in progress, but I just wanted to highlight that we're very open to contributions and that in the next couple of weeks, I will add some things to it that will make it a first draft or release candidate, so to speak. And then we can think about publishing it. And then the question I had is if it is already clear what time, which week we will have the last TOC meeting of the year before the elections, or is there going to be a gap at all? Because I remember last year and usually another years there was some time when we were not having meetings because the election was ongoing. Yes, so Peter, I think the intention for this year is to have a bit of an overlap based on the timing of what things are. It would be obviously great to have anybody who ran for the TOC to attend these meetings and find out what the overall process is and that sort of thing. But I do think that we will have to figure out potentially depending on what changes there are to the TOC handoff of existing task forces. So kind of an update to what's happening there and obviously we do have I think a couple of meetings in December that we won't have just because of end of year holidays and things like that that people might have. So there's like probably three weeks depending on when the timing is of not having meetings end of December beginning of January. Gotcha. Okay. So with all that in mind, my plan is to have the draft ready for final review before we go into the holidays so that everyone can spend their holidays reading the draft and reviewing it. And then when we come back in January, we can just hit publish. And then other than that, I did not have much else for today. Okay. Any, any questions or comments for Peter. My question is, do you want me to cancel the meetings on the 21st and 28th of December. Today, or do you want to wait. I mean, you can cancel whatever you want. Right. I think those are definitely ones that we will not be having. Just based on the timing. Yeah, feel free to cancel those. I think we also have, I don't know if we've canceled the 23rd yet of November, which is Thanksgiving in the US, which means that a number of folks on the call won't actually be here. So we should probably do that one as well. And then we'll probably do that maybe the 4th of January, my guess is that depending on what holidays people are taking, they may end up taking off that week as well. So. Okay, you should all be getting hundreds of meeting cancellation emails. I appreciate that. All right, any other topics for today. If there's no other topics, then we will say that we are finished for today and we will talk again next week. Everybody have a great week. Thank you. Bye.