 Hello, I'm Aliza Kryalias from the Ekliffe Leadership and Governance Centre. Today we are joined by Professor David Karen, Dean of the Dixon Poon School of Law at King's College University of London. On top of administering as well as teaching at one of the top law schools in the UK, he will also be masterminding the largest scholarship programme for law in the United Kingdom as well as Europe. Prior to this, he was the C. William Maxine Distinguished Professor of Law at the University of California at Berkeley. Professor Karen is also kept busy being involved in the World Economic Forum's Global Agenda Council on the Rule of Law, the Executive Council of the American Bar Association section on International Law, the US Department of State Advisory Committee on Public International Law, the Board of Editors of the American Journal of International Law. If that's not enough to add to this illustrious list, he was also the co-director of the Law of the C. Institute and Berkeley's Miller Institute on Global Challenges and the Law. Welcome to Malaysia, Professor. Thank you. Professor, you have had an interesting journey from having a first degree in physics and political sciences, then serving in the Arctic as a navigator and salvage diving officer with a US Coast Guard, and then getting involved in the academia. What were the decision points in your life that influenced these changes? Well, that's a good question. The Coast Guard Academy had probably the biggest influence on my life. There's a big question about why did I go to the Coast Guard Academy ever in the first place? And a part of it has to do with a war in this region, Vietnam War, which personally, as a very young person, I was opposed to. But at the same time, I felt I should serve my country. And so the Coast Guard became a very logical place. Another big factor was that I lost my father when I was very young. And so the family, the finances, where we were from, this was a good option to take. And third, I simply loved the ocean. I had a young person's desire for adventure. And so this notion of service, notion of what a wonderful place to do it in regards to the ocean came together. But they were very strong, strong values for me at the time. So this love of the ocean from what I'm hearing has been going along, following you in your journey because you're also involved in the maritime law. Exactly. So is this something which is important to find this passion in a person's life which will then continue throughout their life's journey? Oh, I think absolutely. You have to find what it is that motivates you. And I was lucky to find the oceans very early. And so much later when I'm in law school, I think my vision was I was going toward maritime law, using my experience from the Coast Guard, going toward government probably. And then a twist came. And I think part of, a very important part is to leave doors open about the future. So on the one hand, I had this path, this river involving me in ocean affairs. And in my third year of law school, which is a second degree in the United States, I was asked to go to a new tribunal between the United States and Iran to be the assistant to the American arbitrators. And that led me in a totally different direction. I've never left the oceans. I mean, I've been fortunate I can keep working on ocean matters. But it added a general thing about international dispute resolution, relations between countries, revolution, state responsibility, and opened international law more generally for me. But that was a very interesting experience. How did your life experiences prepare you for such, you know, from physics and political sciences? Suddenly you're like on this international stage. Yeah. Was there any... There was, you know, like a number of people, we all start with our gifts. Whatever our nature has given us. And they're nurtured in various ways. A gift for me was numbers. I was very good with numbers. My parents came down from Quebec, which is French speaking. English was not my strong point. So as a young man at 15, numbers, mathematics, physics was easy. And part of my desire was to understand who I was, what my place was. And for me, a lot of that was to understand the world, how it worked. And physics allowed me to understand that. And so you mentioned my first degree was in physics and political science. It was physics and then I was done with physics. I raced through it. But also at a certain point physics lost the impulse. And that's because it told me most things about the world and it now became primarily abstract about mathematics. And really I realized it was about people I needed to understand. And so I started moving toward political science and then toward law. But physics has always been with me. And so I do a lot of work in climate change, for example. And so much of a lawyer's work is not about rules. It's about knowing what the impulse behind the rules are, about how the rules will constrain decision making, and then understanding the problem that you're trying to address. And so my curiosity about the world is satisfied all the time. I keep learning about the oceans, learning about climate change. It's just a fascinating life. And how did you see law playing a role in this journey of your life? Law is my commitment, my passion for a very long time was about finding answers. And I remember as a very young boy, seven in Connecticut, it was a hot day and the steam was coming off the asphalt in the summer. But it was a time when the Cuban Missile Crisis was very close. And I remember standing there and I couldn't understand why we were not getting along. And it really concerned me. And I think I have a deep optimism that there are answers to all the questions. But it does take a tremendous amount of work and it takes energy to make those things come about. And so that's been my search, really, all my life, is looking for the answers, both in my own work and then in the people I teach. And so Dixon Poon School of Law was just a natural progression. It's a wonderful time at that school, a wonderful time at King's, and the potential to really create another generation of problem solvers, of leaders is there. And that's something I'm very committed to. Actually, you have been mentioned in a previous interview where we were talking about degrees. You mentioned that the second degree is what defines what you will do. Your first degree is more about maturing yourself as a person. Could you elaborate on that? Well, that's a particular American thing where the first degree is meant to be a liberal education. It's not channeling you in. You can channel yourself. You can say, I want to be an engineer and take all engineering, but there is this classic image of the liberal arts degree where you take physics and anthropology and you do a lot of different things. And at the same time, you learn who you are and what your passion is and then you progress. I'm very excited. So I'm here in Malaysia because of a gift from the Yale family in a new degree at King's Law, which is in politics, philosophy and law. And that's very exciting to me for undergraduates where they're getting this chance to mature more broadly. It's not only about becoming a qualified lawyer, but you get this broader sense of what values undergird the law and how the politics affects what you can implement when you implement it. So that's a great development and something we're very thankful for. Is this something with your background in American academia and American philosophy of learning, something that you see needs to be transposed into the UK academic system? Because some people would actually say, what's this American man doing in London and what does he know more than us Brits? No. Well, I think there's a spirit there that's very important. At the same time, I think a lesson of the last century and this century so far is that we're all learning from each other. And so one thing I said to the faculty as I came is I'm sure I come with some things that are interesting. At the same time, I'm sure there are things here that are great and that need to be preserved and I'm not coming with answers, I'm coming with ideas from my experience. And together we can think about what's appropriate in these circumstances. And so that's a deep tradition in Britain to have the more focused undergraduate degree. I think the question I've had is how to help young people see all their potential even while they do that. How to enrich their life. What does it mean we have a speaker in from politics who comes in and talks to the law students about his life and they can reflect how the rigor of their learning helps them in that world, will help them in that world. But there's many possible careers as yourself. And so we're very proud of you as a alum of Kings and hope that you can come speak to our students as well. What's your view on a person getting a degree from the School of Heart Knocks? I think it's very important, A, that the degree is possible. If it's not possible to come up from just working and effort, that stifles a society right there. So in many ways I view myself that way because it was the family, it was a lot of effort to go through the Coast Guard Academy and then to leave within the United States system, it's very rare that someone leaves the military and then goes into universities such as Berkeley where I was previously. What you learn in Heart Knocks is that everyone does, everyone is of value, everyone earns their place every day and it's very important to have that, that you're there to do a job, that you're there to contribute and if you don't feel that then something is lost. Now one thing I've always loved at Berkeley, I mean some people have asked me, well do you feel trouble that someone had more privilege than you in reaching Berkeley? I mean they could easily go to a private school, then they went to Harvard, then they went to Berkeley to teach. And I've never felt that and the reason is that at least in academia everyone worked very hard to be there. I worked a different path to be there. What I think is important is the path I worked exists that it's possible to do it. And there's a lovely saying in the United States of if you value philosophy more than plumbing, neither your plumbing nor your philosophy will work and it's an important part of my life. So my father-law used to say everyone puts their pants on one leg at a time, right? We're all human, we all do the same things and it's important to remember that. Is that the underlying philosophy in administering the Dexton Foon School of Laws Scholarship which I understand is one of the, well which is the largest in UK and in Europe also. So what's the philosophy that you think should be going into the scholarships? Is it something like on need, on what basis would you then push it on? Well there's two things. So let me tell you just a word about it. This was the gift from Dexton Poon. He has given a gift of 75 full scholarships every year for their whole time at King's which is an amazing gift. That is one third of the student body right there. Now personally my goal would be 225 and I don't see why we can't reach that. And what's important about it is partly the tradition of education being available in Britain which is an aspiration, a certain vision. But more importantly I think it's about law is a very important element in society. And if you have debt because of the way you went to school, your choice about what you do after law school will be to pay that debt, to constrain in certain channels. There's nothing wrong with those channels but I want these young people who've been empowered with this knowledge, with these qualifications to be able to take on whatever role they think. They've come to see society needs and so that's my own personal challenge at this moment. At the present what we do is we ask for applications for the scholarship in addition to the application to enter. And part of that is merit but part of it is also two essays which is a giant commitment to read two essays, to evaluate the spirit of this person, what are they trying to do and it's great. So we're looking for the leaders of tomorrow. What are the qualities of the leaders of tomorrow that you think is important to be instilled in the young people? Well, you know, it's interesting. That's a great question about what that is. There's certainly something intangible you feel in these essays right off the bat. And what is that? There is passion. And I suppose passion tells us something about the commitment of this person, the sustainability of this person to do it. There is something about judgment that's in here. It's a curious thing how judgment and adaptation have to go together because we know the challenges of tomorrow. We know we don't know what they are. But we know they're going to be substantial. And how do we find that leader? That leader doesn't know yet what those problems are. They don't even know these young people. I'm not sure they know what their real strengths are at this point. But you can see a certain energy and a certain sense of judgment, a self-awareness that they don't know all the answers, but that they're out to find them. And it's exciting. It's rejuvenating to see this in young people and it's very hopeful. It's interesting that you mentioned the energy that drives these people. Would you say that the energy that drives leaders, is it something that is standardized throughout time? Or would you say that the energy that drove you and the energy that's going to drive the next generation is something different? That's a great question. I've never thought about that question. I think I probably thought it was standard, that it's interesting how leading feeds back a sense of purpose. And teaching feeds back your passion about teaching that's not leading, but you can see how the student responds about how their future changes in that moment, in a certain class. And that's extremely powerful. And I think in leading there is a sense of making a bridge between today and the best of all futures. That is my own source of energy, I think. The belief that through a lot of hard work I've thought about futures, the good and the not so good, and the choices we have to make to get there. And the futures will be there. I never think that somehow there's some apocalypse ahead, but there are better futures than some. And I feel very fortunate in life and I feel a great obligation to pay back. And to do that, I feel in some ways, I honour myself as I try to do it, and in my parents. In the course of teaching all these young people, what's the sort of things that you see about them that invigorates you about the future? Oh, well they... First of all, I'm taking too much credit. When someone comes to you, their trajectory is so strong already. But I have seen students change entirely as far as what they want to do when they leave. They come in and they have an interest in... This goes both ways. They picture themselves as working in business, and they go to an internship at the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia, and they'll never stop after that. They firsthand heard of suffering in a certain place, and that's important. I've seen students who go to Africa and they never come back. They are so committed to Africa by the time they leave. Conversely, I've seen people go into environmental activists who came to law school with me at Berkeley, who find they love the world of business. They didn't expect it. So it's interesting how people shift, but what I can bring, I think, what does change in the trajectory is whether they have optimism that it's worth giving to someone. And when you give... I play this game in my head, the student is my son or my daughter, and how should they be treated? And to see them carrying that to others, talking in class with others, it's an important spirit to have. I would say that teaching or being a teacher is one of the qualities that's required in the leader. Do you think that it's something that should also be pushed into the corporate world because most people will say, I don't have time, and I don't have the skills to be a teacher? What are your thoughts on that? I would agree entirely it has to be in the corporate world. You're not teaching everyone, obviously, but mentoring is teaching, really. Mentoring is teaching one-on-one. It's not lecturing about a body of knowledge. It's more passing on lessons about how to be a better manager, how to gain the skill of advising others, of articulating a vision, of mobilizing resources. And if you don't do that, your corporation is not sustainable. I mean, you could keep trying to bring talent in from outside, but then whatever your mission statement, whatever your vision of the corporation is lost, I mean, there has to be a sense of a core in your body. So as I join Kings, and they won't see this, I mean, but I have immediately started thinking about who are the next leaders, and how do I train a whole set of people to be the associate dean, the deans. Hopefully the vice principal someday or the principal of the college. Being an academic is about teaching and research. It's not about managing necessarily, and there's a whole set of skills there to counsel, not to judge, to evaluate, to mentor. So I'd say it's very important, it's brought in. Now, as the dean of the law school, you are de facto leader of both the academia faculties, as well as also to the students, and they're all very clever people. What's the challenges and the secrets of managing very clever people? Well, there's managing very clever people. So first of all, I'd say there's more than just those two groups. The way I describe it to the faculty, to them is I have four constituencies, because they tend to think of me as their representative. And I say, no, I'm the representative of the college. I am your representative, vis-a-vis the college. I am a guardian of the students, and I will protect their interests strongly. And I am a representative of the alumni, like yourself. And I'm here to make sure that an institution that they were part of, that they care about, is stronger. So in even saying that, I guess part of it is, if they're very clever people, you can't fool them. And I think sometimes leaders want inspirational statements. You know, everything's going to be great next year. There's no budget problem, blah, blah, blah, whatever. And I think that's a mistake. If you have very clever people, what you have to do is not make promises about outcomes necessarily. You have to make promises about process, your commitment, your principles. You have to be frank, but not... The truth is the future is always surprising. You can watch the budget too much and think, there's problems coming or whatever. But really, there's always going to be... The three rules in any organization, space, personnel, money. The leader adds the vision, holds the vision, even as they try to manage those. And for me, my task with these very clever people is to make them not worried about space, people, money. Let them teach, let them do research, motivate them, facilitate their world. And I tell them that. That's my job. And I'll do that as best I can. And if I need your help, I'm going to come to you. But I'll do it as little as possible because you're producing product. And you're the reason we're here. That's why the students are here. We do that. We're going to do great. Actually, you have a very heavy responsibility because when you mention you are producing products for the future, actually. The future actually depends on people like you bringing out the best students out there. How do you handle that? How do you keep on going and motivating yourself and fight the good fight? Well, that is a challenge for any leader. And I think it's in part because people want you to have that energy. They, a leader, somehow, when I had children, I have children, but when they were little, I would have a certain game with them at two. And I knew I was ahead of what they needed. And at three, I had to change the game. You always have to stay ahead of them a little bit. And the leader, in a way, is alone and needs to find their energy somewhere else. You can't ask the people you're trying to lead for that energy. You can draw for them for energy, but it's not a matter of asking. You need to be far enough along that you know you have to find that. I have a wonderful partner in my wife. She was a manager at a very high level. She understands everything I'm going through. We live a certain distance from the law school. I like to walk. She walks in with me to work. We take a 35-minute walk in. She walks in home. She picks me up in the evening. We walk home. But we talk about the whole day. She is my real source of energy. So sometimes I'll say something about a person or a budget or something. Well, of course, that's there. It's going to be there every year, David. That's what it's going to be. And I should say, hold the vision. And these things just take, you know, that's part of it. And it's interesting. They're not issues. It's all part of the job. And I think any leader should anticipate. All these things are going to be there. Work through them. Hold your vision. That's what really motivates everyone around you. But I think it's important to find someone you can really share with who's not judging as you share, but who's really taking it in and sharing it with you. Really important. As a new dean, not only just of a law school, it's also in a different country. What advice would you give to people in your similar position who's just newly transplanted across different cultures, different geographies, and it took a different job in that sense? What's your advice on how a person should succeed there? Well, I think my lesson... So one lesson comes from international law. So there's a number of times, as you will know, where law comes from one nation to another. Where a choice one nation has made comes through a case into another country. And the question is always, well, do the courts of the second country question the choice of the other country? Or do they simply enforce it? And what I came to appreciate over time is it's really a question of values, that on the one hand you should respect the difference of another country and accept their choice. But on the other hand, to accept their choice, you cannot say you don't feel something about that choice. So for me it's about self-awareness, awareness about what I'm bringing to that country, reflecting back on myself about do I really know that, and trying to listen to what they value at the same time. And knowing that they're not fully self-aware of why they value what they value. And so I've asked a lot of questions and meetings, and sometimes they explain answers, it makes sense. Sometimes they come to think, well, that's a good question. Why do we think that? And so it's an opportunity for a dialogue. And it can be very productive for the institution you're now a part of. But it's not a matter of imposing, it's a matter of awakening. And you as the foreign presence, self-aware can be a catalyst for a lot of growth. But realize that it's their environment, and they're the ones who live with it for the long run. Help it grow, but you can't, it'd be a mistake to think somehow yours is inherently better somehow. Professor, we've run out of time. Thank you very much for taking time out of your very hectic schedule. And then welcome to Malaysia again. Absolutely, my pleasure. Thank you so much for today. Thank you very much. I'm Ali Zakri alias from the Iklif Leadership and Governance Centre, and I'm signing off from the Leaders' Room. Thank you.