 You know, I think I am gonna just go ahead and get started. There's plenty of warm-up material. So folks come in late. They won't be missing all that much. So this is inclusive leadership for managers, tech leads and open source maintainers. Kind of a big broad group, but I feel like a lot of leadership advice tends to focus towards just managers type people. And I think that actually a lot of us in the open source world find ourselves in leadership positions, in formal leadership or formal, where we could do better and I'm hoping that this talk can give you some ideas about that. I am Tara. I work at Pantheon. I'm the developer outreach manager there. You might know me from the Drupal world as sparkling robots. I feel like a lot of people know me by that more than my actual name. I'm also the current leader of Drupal diversity and inclusion. It's an all volunteer working group. There was a talk earlier today from that group. So if you're interested, I have some slides at the end about how to get involved. When I am not doing Drupal-y stuff, diversity and inclusion stuff, I'm typically reading and playing a lot of board games or tabletop RPGs. So, you know, gamers in the room, let me know. I live in Albuquerque, New Mexico, which is Tayua lands. And I use the pronouns she or they, which means either she or hers or they, they're theirs. I know it's sometimes a bit challenging, not everyone's super comfortable with it. Today's topic can bring up some sort of strong emotions, feelings of guilt perhaps, or just anxiety that you're not doing a good job. So I invite you to right now with me, take a deep breath. It's all gonna be okay. I use only cute animal pictures in this presentation as a sort of reminder that like, it's gonna be all right. Take that deep breath. If you're feeling anxious, if you're feeling worried about how you've done as a manager or how you might mess up in the future, we all make mistakes and we all get better. Hopefully we all try to get better. So yeah, a little bit about my perspective when we get started, I am a white person. I am queer. I am a non-binary person. I am also a woman and I work in tech, which is a very non-female, non-sexual minority, gender minority place. I do have a college degree. I have been around programmers all my life. So in some ways I kind of culturally fit into tech super, super well. I have a thick skin. I like nerdy things. We just mentioned board games. So in many ways I fit in, despite the ways that I don't fit in. And because of who I am, I'm going to have perspectives that I cannot speak to or that I am missing. So obviously this whole talk is really about being sensitive to a person's perspective and lived experience. So I'm here to tell you upfront who I am, what kinds of perspectives I can bring into the room. I have talked with plenty of people of color, other queer people, other women, other non-binary people and have tried to put their perspectives into this presentation. But if you think I'm missing anything, we've got this like one of the most fun parts about virtual events is we have this amazing chat box where you can talk about your own experience and you don't have to be the one up on stage. So please let me know if I'm missing something. Let the room know if you have other insights. I love to have kind of a more conversational style. All right, I am gonna get started with a little kind of statement about 2020 because 2020 is a hot mess. Obviously there's the pandemic. There's a Black Lives Matter protest. There's so much going on this year. And I appreciate that you took some time this year to come to this talk. And I also wanna point out that these tragedies, which they are, have a disproportionate impact on people who are already underrepresented and marginalized in tech. I just read an article that in September, 865,000 women left the labor force out of a total 1.1 million. So 80% of the people who are leaving the workforce right now are women. And that includes 324,000 Latinas and 58,000 Black women. So all of the recruiting in the world isn't gonna fix it if you don't have policies and if you don't have support for these people who currently work for you, right? People are being driven disproportionately out of the workforce right now. Coronavirus is disproportionately affecting non-white people. It's brutal. It's a really hard time. And Black Lives Matter has a disproportionate impact emotionally on people of color and Black people in the workplace. So just keep these things in mind. This isn't just checking an HR box. This isn't just doing the right thing because you said you would. This is really, really important stuff that changes people's lives. So just to make it more serious, there we go. The first half of this talk, I'm gonna talk about what it's like to be underrepresented at work. This comes from studies. This comes from what you would call manic data, stories I've heard and my own lived experience. So we're gonna talk about that. And then the second half is gonna be sort of practical strategies for doing better as a manager or tech lead or just leader of any kind. So first and foremost, you don't fit in when you are underrepresented at work. And this seems perhaps a bit obvious, but because you don't fit in, there's actually a sort of cascading set of effects that come from that. You don't get the information and support you need to do your job. You're often assumed not to be competent and you do more emotional labor. I'm gonna specify what kind of emotional labor I'm talking about here. This term has taken on a lot of meanings in the past 10 years or so. The sort of original definition is that it's the work of pretending that you have emotions you don't actually feel. So this is a known job stressor that leads to burnout. This is really a common impact in customer facing jobs, right? You always smile no matter how mean the customer is to you. But in the tech industry, it tends to look more like smiling when someone says something racist to you or says something sexist to you or pretending that it's not a problem that it worked on your appearance or said something inappropriate, right? That kind of thing. That's the emotional labor I'm talking about here. Of course it does also apply to client interactions, but for many of us in the tech world we're not in a fully, fully customer facing job. And there are studies done by the government that prove that emotional labor is a job stressor that leads to burnout. We are, the tech industry is a culture that is sort of obsessed with culture fit and fitting in. So when you don't fit in it's actually a pretty significant liability. You also experienced microaggressions. If you're not familiar with the terms, the term microaggressions, these are the everyday slights, indignities, put downs, insults that people of color, women, LGBTQ people experience in their day to day interactions. That's a definition given by Daryl Sue of Columbia University. This has to look like, oh, you speak great English or oh, you're so technical. Somebody thinks they're maybe saying something complimentary but what it sort of carries this undercurrent of, I didn't think you'd be technical because you're a woman or I didn't think you'd speak great English because you're a person of color. And sometimes these can be painted as people being sensitive. I don't actually love the word microaggressions. It makes it sound small and insignificant. But if you think of it, it's more of a death of a thousand paper cut situation. Again, there is a proven impact on mental health. It leads to anger, depression, lower work productivity, lower problem solving abilities, makes work pretty miserable. And of course, once somebody is microaggressing against you, you then have to do the emotional labor of pretending that it doesn't hurt. You bear the burden of representation. There are a bunch of studies done. One specific study, I have a ton of stuff in my notes and you'll get that at the end. There's a big reference list. But there's a study done on being the only at work and that's the only woman or they're all only women but there's also only queer women, only person of color, only black women, that kind of thing. And being the only leads to a huge burden of representation. You sort of carry the responsibility of representing not only yourself but everyone who is like you. And again, this leads to unsurprisingly burnout, turnover, depression, all kinds of negative outcomes. You make less money. There's a ton of statistics about this as well. People typically women are paid less than men, black women are paid less than white women, so on and so forth. We all know that this is true. We also typically don't take as much advantage of benefits. So it's kind of a bummer to have this sort of rough job where people are microaggressing you and you also know you make less money. People who are underrepresented at work or in a community typically don't know if they'll have backup. A lot of times people won't report to HR when there are issues because they are more afraid that they'll get fired than that anything positive will come out of it. I don't have any studies about this part but I do hear this constantly in women in tech circles that yeah, we know sexism is happening but if we reported to HR we're the ones who are gonna get fired or we're gonna be reprimanded. So it's a very isolating experience. And last but certainly not least, you think about leaving, right? You can't have this much burnout, this much emotional labor going on without having the sense that perhaps you're gonna leave your job or perhaps the tech industry as a whole. Women who spend time as the only on their team are one and a half times more likely to think about leaving their jobs. There was a recent study called the Kapoor Tech Lever Study that talked about why people leave tech. And one of the biggest drivers for underrepresented people leaving tech was just unfairness based. People treating them unfairly, not getting paid, not getting taken seriously. So anyway, I just painted a really depressing picture about what it's like, right? That's what it's like if you are not underrepresented these are the kinds of issues, kinds of questions that your people on your team or in your community may be thinking about frequently or just occasionally, but it really kind of adds up over time. So depressing statistics aside, now what can you do about it? The answer is not just be kind and follow the golden rule. I wish that I could just say that it was, but it turns out it's not that easy to know how to be kind to someone who comes from a different background and values different things from you. So I'm trying to give you some very practical tips to help you be a more inclusive leader, to help you understand better what people are struggling with and how you can help. I also wanna mention that like I said about my perspective earlier, I am a white person. If someone on your team doesn't like the thing that I'm saying, obviously you should take their advice over mine. I don't want anyone going home and saying, oh, I heard all these things in the stock. The most important thing really is to listen to your specific people on your team. This really is about giving people space to be their own individual selves and not painting with a broad brush. So make sure that you are asking your team what they actually want, but I hope that some of these will help you do better with your team. Reflect. I invite you to start paying attention to your own frame of reference. Consider how your personal tastes and your background affect the way that you show up at work. So this is the ways that your education, your race, your gender, your class background, your physical or mental health, how do those things come into play at work? If you are a person who does not have any sort of mental health challenges or physical health challenges, you probably can come into work day after day, not feeling exhausted, but that is not true of everyone. So think about the ways that you feel very confident at work, what helps you feel good? And also think about the things that maybe you don't feel as comfortable discussing at work, maybe a religion or maybe your sexuality, I don't know you, whatever your differences are. And consider the ways that these things may be affecting your reports as well. They may not necessarily talk about it at work, right? That's the thing, but just keep an eye into this. And the more aware you are of your own privileges and your own ways that you have different kinds of marginalization, the more you're going to be able to be empathetic to your employees and your teammates. Next, I invite you to slow down. Speed and spontaneity are never inclusive. In an industry that is like move fast and break things, that's fine if you're talking software. I'm all about like break sub software, but it is not fine when we're talking about human beings. My favorite example here is you wanna throw a party for your team, right? Obviously COVID times things are weird, but pre-COVID times, you wanna go out for a happy hour cause you just had a big project launch. A lot of times you don't think about it until like the Thursday before the launch because you've been busy with the launch, right? So you try to pick a location that everyone is gonna have a good time at, but it's not always obvious what's actually gonna be a good choice for everyone on the team. So let's say you wanna have dinner. Is there food that everyone can't eat? I hate going to a party where like 99% of people are having a wonderful time and 1% of people can't find anything to eat. That's not okay. Is the venue accessible? Can everyone physically get into the venue without a lot of pain or at all? Is there alcoholic and non-alcoholic options? Is the lighting bright enough that everyone can see the menu? Is it so loud that some people won't be able to hear? Is everyone gonna feel safe getting home afterwards, right? I, there's so many different things that can affect what's gonna make someone feel comfortable at a party. And I just wanna be clear that I love parties. Like I really like parties, but taking the time now before it's urgent to figure out what would be a good way to spend time with your team and make everyone feel included and celebrated is gonna pay off in the long run. So slow down, try to think these things out in advance and take that extra time that you need to find the right solution for your entire team because it is complicated and it's worth taking a little bit more to figure it out. Make space for your reports and your teammates and your community members. When things like the protests that were happening over the summer and continue to happen, it can be really, really hard to come into work and everyone around you is just acting like nothing happened, right? You don't know if your boss doesn't know about the protest or doesn't care about the protest. So that can be just really just, morale just drops, it could be really disillusioned make you feel like you don't matter to the team. So start paying attention to current events and ask yourself, does someone on the team maybe need a little more support and empathy right now? I think my favorite example of this was during the Brett Kavanaugh hearings, which were very traumatic for a lot of people, a lot of discussion of sexual assault and other horrible things just constantly in the news. I felt very fragile and I just kept going to work because I didn't know what else to do. And my boss reached out to me privately and just said, you know, it's okay if you're not at full capacity right now. She didn't ask me to talk about it. I didn't have to be vulnerable about it. Didn't even, you know, ask me if it was a problem or anything. It just said, it's okay to have a little bit more time for yourself right now. It was an incredible and graceful gift and I think it's something we can all do for people around us, whether they report to us or not. So just make sure you're making space for people to have their full lived experiences and to value that. So ask, right? We're talking about connecting, not being perfect, right? You don't have to read your employee's minds about all of these things. It's okay to ask your reports how they're doing. Make sure you're, I like to kind of leave is there anything else you want me to know at the end of any one-on-one? It's okay to ask, people ask me all the time what pronouns I prefer and it's fine. Like I'd much rather someone ask me that than just guess and get it wrong or avoid using pronouns for me and then everything's really awkward. Feel confident asking. And I know it can be comfortable and that's also why we have to practice. A lot of these conversations are deeply uncomfortable sometimes because we've never had them, sometimes because we've never known somebody who use Z as a pronoun. So just start practicing. There's a link I include in my resources. A woman named Megan Carpenter says, I need you to get it wrong for me. The stakes are much higher for underrepresented people in tech, right? We just talked about how COVID is worse. We talked about how people are leaving their jobs more at higher rates. So it's okay for you to be a little bit uncomfortable if your team can feel more comfortable and more valued. It's worth practicing. There's also an amazing article on Medium called the art of the awkward one-on-one where they walk you through the practice of committing to an awkward one-on-one and not awkward in a bad way, awkward in an emotionally vulnerable way so that you are demonstrating that vulnerability so that people know that they can be vulnerable and also just practicing asking these awkward questions when you need to. Start looking at culture ad rather than culture fit. This is true whether you are trying to recruit people to your open source project or trying to recruit people to your team. I know that I have this tendency as well. Oh, they're not gonna fit in. I don't know, what if there's friction on the team? Nobody likes friction. But when we start looking at the actual culture ad piece, it can be really, really powerful. Diverse teams are smarter. I don't really love to talk about the like business case for diversity because I just don't, I think it's a moral case, but when you do have a diverse team, it's a smarter team. But that only works if you're diverse teammates, your teammates who are different from everyone else are comfortable sharing their perspectives. If they pretend that they're just like everyone else, then you don't really necessarily get those benefits. So make sure you're really looking at what a person adds to the team and truly valuing that, not just paying lip service to it, but truly valuing and giving them the space on the team to enact what they think is best and to really bring that perspective to bear. Educate yourself. So I said, ask your people questions if you need to, but also start doing research yourself. Start following new people on Twitter, watch movies that your reports recommend, read books. If you don't know how to accommodate someone for a religious holiday, Google first, and that way your employee or your teammate knows, oh, they cared enough to do research and then you can kind of confirm with them. I know a woman who was starting a new job and asked about dress code and they said something like business casual. So she just asked for a little more information. She wanted to make sure she was dressed appropriately and the recruiter wrote back and said, I actually don't know what's appropriate for women because we only have men on the team. And it was just such a moment where that recruiter could have gone and Googled and found out what was an equivalent outfit. You know, they don't have to be an expert in women's fashion, but instead they just told her, oh, we don't know. And that was, I think, a really hard way to start up to feel like it's just not a priority and nobody's willing to do that kind of self-education. This one's very specific. Read Five Ally Actions. This is a newsletter that comes out every Friday and it is Five Ally Actions. It's a really, really good newsletter. It's very timely. So when that study came out that a million women or 850,000 women had left the workforce, there were specific asks about how you can support women better so that they don't have to leave the job and leave the workforce to take care of their family. So highly recommend this newsletter and don't just sign up, but actually read it. Formalize your performance reviews. This is something that happens a lot where if you have an ambiguous criteria for evaluation, bias becomes more prevalent. There's, again, a ton of studies that have shown this that without structure, people are likely to rely on gender, race, and other stereotypes on making decisions. So if your usual performance reviews are, how's it going? What did they do last quarter? Did they do well? And typically it's not gonna go well. The article I linked to at the end from Harvard Business Review talks about how one manager, when they started actually looking at their different reports and their different reviews, found that the men's reviews were highly, highly technical and the women's reviews were much more focused on social skills, even though it's the same role and that role required both technical and social skills. And part of the problem they realized was that their employees were asking different questions. So when they said, how can I help you? The men tended to ask for technical support and the women tended to ask for social support and it started to kind of make the team diverge in two directions. So the more structure you can put into any kind of review or support process is really gonna help. You need a rubric, adding more prompts in that same manager that had the sort of team where it was going technical and social, just made sure that every future review had both a, what kind of technical support can I give you and what kind of social support can I give you? And that started to really kind of bring the team into better alignment and stop that difference coming up in the team. And also when you have these evaluations you can check for consistency. So go back over the last year with your team and look what kinds of patterns can you see and how can you fix them? Last but certainly not least is increased pay equity and transparency. This is the biggest one, I would say. This is kind of the root of the problem, right? If people know they're getting paid less in general which underrepresented people do, it can be really hard to deal with. So if you know that your company is paying people equitably, you should I think be shouting it from the rooftops. You should tell everyone who works at your company and you should tell everyone in the universe about it. It's amazing. If you're not sure if it's true, then find out. Even if you don't have control over who gets paid, what? Ask your executive team, ask your HR team, what can we do better? How can we do better? And this goes for benefits too. It's not just pay equity. It's things like are people taking the right number of days off? Are people taking equitable numbers of days off? I know a lot of times women and people of color feel anxious that because again they're carrying that burden of representation they don't take as many days off as they need. So start to look out for how people are taking advantage of benefits and do what you can to make sure pay equity is a reality because it's not in very many places. That's the end of all the instructions I'm gonna give you. I just wanna say that your actions as a leader matter. You're here in this room so I know you're a good person and you wanna help. Many of us, especially in the Drupal community fall into leadership positions. It's like you raise your hand, you get something done and then suddenly somebody's given you maintain our privileges and now you're the maintainer of something and oh God, surely I should have had somebody tell me what to do, right? But that's just not how it works. It opens up to just become a leader and the deal is none of us have had formal leadership training, we're all flying by the seat of our pants, learning by experimentation and observation and it's time to do better, right? Our culture is how we sort of scale our beliefs, right? What we do, other people will follow us. If we let microaggressions flourish in the workplace then they will continue. If you just turn away from it and don't mention it, then it's gonna get worse. On the other hand, if you say oh, you know, so-and-so uses she, her pronouns now, just FYI, then people will learn to respect that and to use the proper pronouns or whatever behavior you wanna encourage. The fact of the matter is it doesn't matter if you don't really want this power because if you're in a leadership position, you have it and if you don't take advantage of that, if you don't use that power for good, someone else will. And one last reminder, this isn't about looking good, this is about people's lives. I entered the tech industry from what you would call a pink collar job and my life has been substantially better even though there's all these terrible things about it, right? There's all the sexism going on, but I now have a much, much higher salary, I have better healthcare, my work is more interesting. I get to travel the world sometimes, hopefully again and I get to make a difference with the work I do. It's a fantastic, the tech industry has so many upsides that I think that getting people in, getting people real power in the tech industry is only gonna make their lives better and it's gonna make the industry stronger. So with that, I've got my resources, you can go to this link, which I will drop in the chat here and we do have, yeah, we got like 20 minutes for questions, I love questions, so let's do that. Bitly, gonna type it, hopefully correctly. That will be a link to the slides, which as you've seen is almost entirely animal pictures, but critically it does have the link to all the articles that I referenced. And so everything I talked about is pretty much linked there. If you have any questions, let me know. And if you are passionate about the subject, which I'm guessing you are, cause you're in the room, please join Drupal Diversity and Inclusion. We meet every Thursday in the Drupal Slack. It is all text-based Slack meeting and has taught me so, so, so much about being a better person and made so many friends for me in this community. I feel very grateful. After this, oh, did I note I'm still screen sharing? Sorry. I do have time for questions. And before I go, we do have in 20-ish minutes, there will be a coffee break sponsored by Pantheon. And then after that, there will be some more awesome, awesome talks. So with that, I am here for questions. And if you want to jump on video, I can do that or we can do text. Shrutana's here. Hi. I'm jumping in to encourage others to jump on as well. Hi. Thank you. This is a great session. This is the first time I got to see your session in one go, actually. I've always seen it in different places. Because usually... No, I've given it a couple of times. Yeah, which is usually when I'm room monitor or anything in actual locations, I tend to have to run around. So I don't run around. Totally. Totally, yeah. I added some new stuff for this one because I've given it a couple of times, so. So one of the questions, okay. Thanks. You don't want to talk about the business side of it, right, but how can we encourage our companies to think more inclusively, besides just asking for it as people that work in the company room? Yeah, I think... I'll be honest with you, I don't work at a company anymore personally if I don't think there's interest, right? Even if they're not doing a great job, like I think that the interest is a key starting point. You can't make someone care about something they don't care about, but if you want to try. One thing I really think is really powerful is a lot of people don't realize how much our monoculture that the tech industry is, is negatively impacting products. And there are some awesome YouTube videos. There's a black spoken word artist who basically did a bunch of face analysis on images of famous and very powerful black people and specifically black women. And basically the AI that they were using couldn't identify them. Often as humans even, and certainly was misidentifying them if not as non-human entities, but as men. And it's just really depressing to see how bad the technology is. When you're just using the same faces over and over again, it's like, oh, look how great we are. And then you see that there's entire groups that are just not handled well. And there's like a thousand stories like that. So I think especially for a product company, it really helps to talk about like, we're just not making good tech if we don't have more people in the world. But like I said, I do think it's a bit of a hopeless, if somebody's heart isn't in the game, it's really hard. But that tends to be, I think a very powerful moment is to see how bad some of it is. Yeah. Also like talk to HR, because it's impossible to hire people if you don't have any diversity and inclusion stuff. I think people just really don't wanna work there. It's just not as good of a workplace. That makes sense. No, and I agree. The whole fact, I'd rather you try and kind of falter and make some mistakes than not try at all. And that makes sense. Yeah. I would much rather have somebody, yeah, be awkward with me about my gender or whatever, than not try. You know, like, I was like, come on, we could do better than that. I agree. Yeah, but they, yeah, I'm gonna awkwardly stand here if anybody wants questions. Let me think. I have so many thoughts about all of these things. So, okay, when somebody makes a mistake, how best to point it out or help them without necessarily having to do all of the emotional labor with it or having, what's a good way to at least get to? I think it's really hard if it's awkward against yourself, so to speak, like if it's your own thing. I think this is where allies really can help a lot because it doesn't hurt as much if somebody says something bad about someone else, but if I see it and I can be like, hey, because then the other thing is when you screw up, because I have screwed up and we all screw up, but when the person who's hurt is the one telling you, it can have a really intense emotional impact, which is not that person's fault. It's my own fault for having made the mistake, but you just become so embarrassed, so humiliated that you hurt this person or that you said something dumb or whatever it is. And so I think often having a third party who can be the one to say like, oh, did you actually know that someone so doesn't celebrate that holiday or whatever the thing is, you can be embarrassed in front of someone else. And it's like a little easier to process because I think our brains just that like, and our brain just kind of shut down and emotions take over. So that's what I like to do is ask someone, like, hey, can you intervene on my behalf? But sometimes it's easy. Like I just actually saw someone for the first time. She said it was her first time doing this, that someone in a Slack, not the Drupal Slack that I'm aware of, it was a different Slack. Basically, a man messaged this woman privately, ostensibly under professional circumstances, but then started talking about how she looked and her appearance. And she was just like super taken aback. And she took the time to just say like, I don't wanna talk to you about my appearance. Like this is a professional space and I wanna keep it focused on that. And he actually responded much better than I would have expected. He just said, oh, you know, you're right. I'm sorry, and deleted the comment and who knows how much more you learned, but sometimes just directness is surprisingly effective. And it's being happening in a DM. It can be scary because you're alone, but also at the same time, it's a way of calling in because you're not necessarily, the person can feel embarrassed with you while it's happening, but they don't necessarily feel embarrassed in front of an audience sometimes. But yeah, encouraging allies to kind of talk, to give space for the people around them, but also to kind of call, yeah, jump in and help out, that makes sense. I think that's a tricky thing for sometimes for people to know when to jump in and when not to, but. Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. It's tricky. It's tricky. But sometimes it's better, I think, to just jump in gently and at least make some room to at least make people aware of their words, that their words and actions might be coming across wrong. Because I have it sometimes, I have it a lot. But sometimes I say things just kind of, without, sometimes without thinking, and I'm not realizing I'm hurting somebody by just being very blasé about something. Exactly, it's using your privilege. And this is the thing. Everybody has privilege in certain areas and it is using your ability to help somebody out. I agree. Totally agree. I've definitely heard some, I've heard of this. I haven't ever seen it working in a way that was like universal, but I've heard ouch and oops, where if somebody says something that's like a microaggression essentially, like not a big thing, but hey, kind of that same thing you're talking about, Jordanna, like just FYI, not cool. And then the other, so if I said something terrible and it hurt your feelings or it was inappropriate, you could say ouch. And then I would say oops, like I didn't realize. And it kind of lets the conversation continue without derailing it into like a giant, whatever about the actual thing. And then later when you're like private or in a smaller group or whatever you could talk about what happened. But I've never seen it work, but I've also never tried to fully implement it. So I don't mean that as a criticism of it. I've always been intrigued by the idea. That kind of makes sense. You would, everybody would need to be aware of it. Just this whole thing about just saying ouch is a kind of a way of, and it doesn't need to be exaggerated, but it kind of is a way of kind of just pointing out that something was not so nice. It could have come cross hurtful. That might be a way at even as an ally or somebody with privilege to jump in and be like, oh, maybe not ouch. Right. That is interesting. I'm trying to be very interested. Very cool. Yeah. If there's no other questions, we can just end early and people will get snacks and stuff, which are also really good for inclusive leadership because it helps you be a happier person who is nice to people. I think snacks are really important. Awesome. Well, thank you all for coming today. I will be in the pantheon booth at the top of the hour. If there are further questions, feel free to come check it out and say hi. And yeah, with that, I think that's everything. Thank you, Tara. That was awesome. Bye.