 Welcome everybody. We're not on the floor of the house We are picking up with S23, which is the Senate version of the minimum wage bill and we have with us today Commissioner Curley and Matt Barowitz from the Department of Labor and again Committee I apologize due to the time constraints that we've had we haven't been able to be particularly Linear in the testimony that we've taken so far on this bill But we will be able to start picking up on that next week and be able to go through quite a few Witnesses, but we wanted to get the Department of Labor in We noticed that you testified in the Senate and And if you could share your testimony, they're Whatever you'd like to testify to on the S23 And how it's how it works with you and then we'll have some questions For the record, I'm Lindsay Curley, Commissioner of Labor, and I'm with me Good afternoon, Matt Barowitz, Economic and Labor Marketing Information Chief for the Vermont Department of Labor. Thank you for having us So I'm sure it will come as no surprise to those of you that were in the committee last year a year ago that are Administrations position on this has not changed, but there are new members So we really do appreciate an opportunity to offer our perspective on this You know, I'm sure we can all agree that the intent of the minimum wage proposal You know, helping Vermonters become self-sufficient and reduce dependence and state programs is a goal We can all get get our arms wrapped around or a head wrapped around I should say But the Vermont Department of Labor does question the efficacy of the minimum wage towards alleviating the financial stress of Vermont households Well, much of the minimum wage discussion has been on what will happen if Vermont raises the minimum wage to $15 an hour There's does not appear to be any clear evidence as to what has happened Since or as a result of the previous or Legislatively mandated minimum wage increases, which we are now at $10 and 78 cents an hour What we would argue needs to be better understood are the outcomes for all the reasons that the minimum wage was Incrementally set four years ago. How much additional tax revenue has been collected on How much savings has state government programs incurred as a result of past increases? Ultimately has annual income increase for minimum wage earners So there's no evidence that we can point to the Vermont Department of Labor can point to that suggests that the previous mandated increase Have moved the needle The ability of minimum wage to impact wage inequality from poverty statistics is Suspected as evidenced by state outcomes across the country some states with high minimum wages have High inequality and some states with low minimum wages have low levels of poverty Vermont's own recent history with poverty is indication that the impacts of the minimum wage are not fully understood Another example of this is that the traditional economic theory would expect labor participation participation rates to rise With the increase of minimum wage But we've had an increase in minimum wage over the last four years and we've not seen the labor participation rates increase so in fact labor force petition participation rates for young and Prime working age adults the very individuals who might benefit from a minimum wage increase of this magnitude have been declining for held Flat at best So these are some of the reasons that the Vermont Department of Labor is asking for a pause in terms of For their arbitrary increases to the minimum wage the US economy has been on a historically long period of economic expansion and The expansion cannot go on forever that we all wish it would by waiting to adjust the minimum wage to be on the statutorily set in Will adjustment for inflation Businesses would have more flexibility in adjusting to a future economic downturn 1968 is held out as the benchmark for minimum wage But as a reminder it was in late 1968 into 1969 that the US fell into a recession So it's time to think about the next national recession although. I'm not going to be an alarmist But the reality is it's very likely on the horizon The department is both in a career focus and a labor supply focus So while job losses are a potential concern the data indicates a bigger concern in reduction of hours and Increase in hourly rate of pay does not increase in does not guarantee an increase in the annual earnings that That a worker would take home as reported by private employers in Vermont 2016 The number of hours worked per week is down by 2.9 percent since 2008 In total employers reported hourly earnings growth over the past 10 years nearly equal the rate of inflation However, if hourly earnings are converted to weekly earnings Once these weekly earnings are not keeping up with inflation due to the reduced hours And it's reasonable to assume that the reduction in hours was not felt equally by workers But disproportionately felt by those with the lowest skills The part-time trend is echoed in the stubbornly high use x which includes individuals who want full-time work But can only find part-time work for economic reasons That level which is more than two times greater than traditional unemployment rate for the youth rate the one that you often see And read about typically after a long period of economic expansion We would expect the ratio of the u6 to the u3 to be well below 2 And it is not in addition in addition the population of long-term unemployed is rising indicating there's a population of Vermonters that are unable to gain economic traction and Increasing the minimum wage will actually make their challenge likely make their Challenge of finding employment even greater even more challenging the committee is correct that wage gains have been captured by the individuals Experiencing the highest growth of productivity in productivity It's the department's position that there must be a better public policy option to address than the minimum wage For one reason about 50% of Vermonters under the federal poverty level have no earnings at all Households with no one earning no one earning age No one earning wage income. Thank you increases the risk of generational poverty as Proper work ethics are not passed on There's significant money to be made right now in Vermont for workers with skills The department is advocating for increasing the focus on skill acquisition to better prepare Vermonters To profit in the challenging market place instead of interfering with the market marketplace and how the wages are set In this future labor market only employees with the best skills will be able to compete So again, we're we're asking you to to push pause on an arbitrarily increase minimum wage and Consider, you know, allowing some time or other policy, baby, but again in the Department of Labor can operate that we Have the ability to help Upskill folks at this point in time. Hopefully getting them ready, you know, for what maybe right on the horizon With that I I'm open to questions, but I also just want to make sure you know that Matt Barrow is here He's our chief economist He's able to dive deeper into this conversation that I am I'm an accountant But yeah, we will Missing that So Actually think represent walls and I were the only ones who who were here from last band today First question While I disagree with your take on the differences between on the effect of minimum wage You know We'll respect that But how do you correlate the fact that? We have a minimum wage that's That says 1078 or 1079 an hour But we also have through John fiscal office Vermont has a state policy that determines what a livable wage is at the for basic needs Which is still Two and a half dollars over what the minimum wage is So the state policies already says that that people who are making minimum wage are already not gonna have a little wage How do you how do you? How do you match those things up? All right, I Mean first of all, I would tell you that supply and demand is forcing employers to pay higher So the folks that do possess the skills are likely making more than that to begin with like this is a time where they can Gain a higher pay as well as you know from in benefits in there Hi Just let me just gather my thoughts here I see as two ways one there's I This is a challenging conversation first and foremost for me as an economist because I'm here as an economist brought the information How people make a decision? I'm not here as an individual or a person with personal preferences I'm not here to talk about social issues or Other things so as an economist when we're looking at this You are right to point out that the basic needs budget is about that So there's there's two things I see when it comes to that one as it relates to an employer when they're determining When to hire when to fire and how much to pay They have to ensure that it is actually going to be net positive to bring on that worker And there are skills that need to be acquired in the marketplace to help people grow and understand their roles and Responsibility within an individual organization these could be hard skills. They could be soft skills So that's kind of an aside Putting that together with what we're really talking about and this is where the dismal science in me Because what we're talking about is prices how much is someone willing to sell their time for we're talking about the price of labor So when we're lining up the price of labor relative to the price of goods and services across the economy You move one price the other price is going to respond So you will so my fear is is that by changing the wage rate if your goal is that we're gonna set it to the basic Needs budget the basic needs budget will will shoot up a year from now You're always going to be playing catch-up and you'll never reach that threshold represent friend so You spoke of skills acquisition. So my thought is That if we are so as a state, we've been looking toward Vocational and technical education to fill jobs that are not being filled presently and it seems to me that Skills acquisition is that we expect that to satisfy that to some degree But why is not is a $15 an hour wage not the incentive that is going to carry that mission through? That's a great question and I there's two things I think about in this again two things and so one the Traditional economic theory says you raise the price of something then the supply of it will increase right and so So if genes became $300 a pair more people would want to produce producing supplied genes Labor refining does not respond in that way because as the commissioner mentioned in our opening statements as prices for wage The minimum wage of increase we have not see a corresponding increase in labor force participation Which indicates there's something in the market that's making it to those individuals Disadvantaged to seek additional opportunity or take the initiative to learn those additional skills I think conversations related to benefit cliff start in generation of poverty Barriers to employment that are as long as our list as long as of our arm And these are again the people we work with in serve at the Department of Labor We help anyone walks in the door whether you have a PhD or you haven't completed high school And so we are trying to get people on a sustainable path that they can grab hold of those first rungs of The career ladder and the fear Information is that You in some ways can be sign off the lowest rungs of the employment ladder making it more difficult for people to grab that first rung because you're going to be competing with automation you're going to be competing with business Preferences and changes and actually the way they do business and provide services so back in the the Companies used to be more integrated There used to be that old story like you could start in the mail room and work your way up You know there's even I think a Broadway play based on it, right? The mail room is no longer part of that organization because of specialization So now actually they're hiring out the mail group. They're hiring out the janitor stuff They're hiring out the landscaping crew because if there's an economic incentive to do so for those businesses to increase their bottom line And so there this is where you take a figure step back and say other than just tinkering with prices Because prices will react and the marketplace will respond to price changes You need to think more broadly about how businesses are providing incentives to do or not incentives I'm up for money. So what are their incentives and disincentives when they're making business decisions? And that is a much broader discussion involving taxes and corporate structure. Have you tried to hire a woman lately? I'm not seeing the sawing off the bottom rung what I'm seeing is $15 an hour to learn a work ethic to apply your trades in the workplace Be paid better is an incentive to do that, right? And in those situations like a plumber like an electrician you come in an apprentice What he tried to learn the trade and then you become self-sufficient as your own and What there's a fear is that you know based on the populations we're working with right now We have people that to the bottom line It doesn't make sense for an employer to bring them on because of the liabilities of like their business reputation I can't count on them to open the store if they said they were going to open the store So basically working with individuals who aren't employable at $10 an hour So how what are we going to do for those individuals? So it's not so sure when we change the price of wages there will be people better off many of those individuals have skills And I've been in the uncomfortable situation where I've talked all that economic theory and I've sat and watched the next person come in And they're bringing their real person talking about putting real food on the table, right? And they talk about difficult situations in which they had or two or three jobs until they got a break But those breaks are because of the rules and responsibilities They accepted in those other jobs that put them in that next opportunity Before I let So I've represented by wrong the number of black people you use the phrase like labor force participation several times I understand that the 2.5 percent employment rate is Dangerously low, but that seems to me that a labor force participation would then be really high And I know there's other numbers that can measure different levels of unemployment, but can you define? it can you just Jingles a little bit to say that with the 2.5 percent employment rate unemployment rate that we don't have labor force participation Can you just explicate that a little bit, please? Sure. So when we The my part of your labor statistics in partnership with the US Census Bureau of Conduct a monthly survey where we ask Vermont or super my households, that's how the unemployment rate is defined is by actually questionnaire to Vermont households I just actually answered a question from a Citizen of Vermont who I was asking about what about all the people who run out of UI benefits, you know They're not counting the unemployment rate and I explain that's actually two separate things You can be unemployed and not receive unemployment benefits They're actually two separate worlds because really what we're talking about is the labor force So this survey simply asks are you working if yes, then you're definitely in the labor force and you're working If no, you're not working the questions become are you looking for work? Are you willing to accept work if offered? Are you able to perform work if offered? So to be in the labor force you'd have to be employed or unemployed and to be unemployed You have to be willing and able to accept work if offered and you've actively looked for the work in the last month So there's a big cohort of people Within the civilian institutionalized population in the state of Vermont that's a population We study the civilian non institutionalized population meaning they're not in the military and they're not in some sort of You know we have these awful terms what a non institutionalized facility Either medical perhaps or you know, but anyway So our labor force participation rate rather relative to the nation is a little bit higher We're about sixty seven sixty eight percent relative to the nation about sixty four sixty five So that's basically saying of everybody who is sixteen plus who's non-military and not institutionalized Terminal not comfortable with but that's the opposite of non institutionalized We're about two-thirds of the people are saying either looking for work or I won't work So that's the 2.5 percent is actually just the labor force. So if you are looking for work won't work and accept work 97.5 percent of them are able to find work and the 2.5 can't So that's one core of people but there's a whole court of people that aren't in that calculation because they say I can't accept work right now offered me I'm taking care of a sick love one I had a look for work in a year But there's maybe they have barriers to employment or something maybe for economic reasons They don't need to work in their mind. They're right, but yeah, they could be in school It's not necessarily a negative thing that someone's out of labor force There could be positive things that are coming on But so there is people outside the labor force that are not considered employed or unemployed A lot of people find that discussion interesting because if you could pull more of those individuals into the labor force They would be they would help up for a lot of the labor shortage that you see around the state I think I got a two-part question for you What were some of the jobs currently in Vermont or minimum wage and how has that Fluxuated and like the last ten years has been contracted expanded That's a great question. And I've seen data for Vermont that others have provided from my see if the department of labor I don't have that information. Okay. We do not collect it but it's efficient to answer that question Unfortunately And so there's no way of Trying to mind that at all or you just don't have the The the necessary had the necessary information, but I actually calculate so yeah, especially if you talk about people or individuals So we did provide the underlying data set that Tom Quebec used in his Modeling and that looks at jobs. And so we can see how many jobs fall where they fall And so those estimates would be based on Department of Labor data about how many people like so if you're looking at Tom Studies saying basically a 20 20 20 6,770 are the approximate number of jobs that are less than the proposed minimum wage, right? So he's taking our occupational data. Okay, so you can play the round off a percent again from that So yeah, so you can see like 30 according to his data saying about 30,000 Yeah, about 30 if you just even rounded down to 300,000. So it's like one out of 10 Okay, so ballpark ish Call it 10 12 percent of the workforce is minimum wage As a snapshot, okay And some of that data will you experience a lot of challenges with it? And I think there this question came up last time I was in here when I was doing my introduction is because so this is Occupational based data that employers are providing to us about the outcomes of their employees If you are someone who is a carpenter and or a plumber your boss can say I pay them 18 73 an hour Point, you know exclamation point that if you are in the leisure and hospitality industry You are providing either an estimate of what the tips are because the tips are supposed to be included or you're just saying I just paying five dollars an hour because that's what I'm supposed to pay them And then we have to call them and says says he paying five dollars an hour and minimum wage You know including tips is supposed to be at least 10 78. Well, yeah, whatever it is just mark me down for that So we know that occupational data typically underreports the economic outcomes of individuals who receive a significant amount of their earnings from tips Because we talked to those employers and they said I can't estimate that you can either have the data or not have the data We don't care and so they're like, well, thank you for answering my phone call Two questions from the commissioners are what you mentioned about there are states that have a low minimum wage, but there's a Not a big disparity between wealth and then there's a space they have high mineral wage that have a high disparity between wealth Can you just say this example so I didn't understand this because I want to see that Yes, you kind of want to know can we point to some of those specific states that And then the second thing is All-governor's wanted people to move here, but it seems younger people are moving away. So when you're Your issue you said if you look at young people and There's not been an increase in jobs for young people, but isn't that with the minimum wage issue? It's a bit during the exodus That's after them towards we're talking to them Yeah, I I would just share with you that I have not necessarily seen data to prove their young people are leaving this day Okay, and so I hear this often like people will say I'm young people They don't want to be here because they don't think there are jobs and things so I just want to clarify to you that I think Part of the issue that's happening is like there's a population that doesn't necessarily Maybe want to engage, you know in the workforce. So I wouldn't I wouldn't argue that they've left our state I just want to sort of be clear that I I'm trying to sort of walk around this I mean there might be again barriers like maybe there's addiction maybe there's You know other like I said other barriers for but I just I'm not sure young people are lonely, but we are aging Yeah, and as of the labor force participation right conversation It's not necessarily that all of them are quote-unquote doing nothing Journal article about the do nothing generation that was kind of debunked We're trying to look into this population now referred to as need not employed or in education and training And so we're going to try and build out some data for the state of Vermont But it's very difficult with our population and sample size, but there is some good data at the national level in the need population and But this labor force participation rate some of them could be a Post-secondary education or career technical education because when they dug into the data there used to be kind of If you could hold four categories possible if you're a young person you you exit school and you go to work You exit school you go to more school You exit school you do nothing or you exit school and you go to work and go to school a Population that has changed the most is the population that is exit school Gone on to school and gone to work at the same time So it's like there is now an either or either I go to work I go to school or I do nothing as opposed to that cohort that used to be quite significant I go to school and I work, but she was calm and well We're still looking for the Vermont all data because all this is a national study But this is a study that kind of came out in the 2015 2016's after the recovery happened in 2009 When the economy started growing we started seeing tight labor market conditions in the conversation about where all the young people started in the nation You know because we do have a low birth rate in Vermont particularly we have a low birth rate But even the US has a low birth rate So as a result is particularly here in Vermont of a 20 or 30 year low birth rate You know when you look out the window you don't see as many young people used to and that's a reality But a function of it is because of birth rate more so than they're all leaving We don't see any difference in the immigration and migration patterns of youth Relative to the past I hope this question isn't too abstract, but I I'm curious if the administration's position is In agreement to some degree that the market is not allocating resources in the way that we'd like to see is the market failing to allocate Resources are the people who if we agree that wages are not matching Expenses in my view, that's a market failure, but in the language that I heard you use One point I heard you reference work ethic and then I heard again multiple references to workers not having the skills that they That sounds like You maybe believe in the market mechanism, but you're saying that the work the workers who are participating in it are Lacking in some way they're either lacking the skills or the work ethic. That's what it sounded like you were saying and I'm just Trying to get it clear whether that was what you were saying I don't think it's any one thing to be honest with you. I think that there are folks maybe that Maybe do lack the driver the work ethic that means that I also think that again When you have such a small pool of people to choose from to build vacant jobs They they might be skilled in one area and not meeting, you know, again, we talked about plumbers, right? We have a real lack of plumbers. So I Think it's a very broad issue. I don't think it's any one thing and I'm not sure I'm answering your question But I don't want to leave you thinking that I'm saying that Ramon is you know Generally lack the skill or lack the desire, but I I think you have a whole host of different things that are That are creating a challenge for filling the job vacancies that we do have and also for the people who are not Maybe able to to have that livable wage, you know There maybe they either don't have this the skills that are needed for what is open or they lack the desire Lots of different things, but there's a basic agreement then I guess that The workers who work full-time should be able to pay for the costs associated with living in Vermont Ultimately without the intervention of state agencies without the intervention of charities, etc. Etc. Is there a basic agreement that a person who works full-time should Be compensated in such a way that they're not relying on other state agencies to Meet some gap. I mean I yeah, that would be ideal again, you know, are they showing up? Are they are they bringing to the table what they're supposed to bring? I can give you an example of a I am a small business owner so part of the business But an example of a young woman who worked for us who was very very bright and talented And we kept trying to push her up push her up push her up and she said to us I'm gonna I'm gonna tell you to pause right now because I can't take that because I will lose these benefits So again, I think it's a real broad conversation about I think employers are happy to pay more Especially right now they're gonna pay more than minimum wage if somebody is really good and they're They're showing up and they're doing their job and they're willing to gain the skills But you have to remember that and the worker has to Want to row in that same direction and if there's different policy handles that are they're affecting their decisions that an employer can't Necessarily control just by raising, you know paying more to that person I I I absolutely agree with you that somebody that's working full-time and is you know Giving their best effort should be able to pay the bills. Absolutely, but I think it's a much broader conversation Representative the March that's right So talking about Whether or not young people are leaving the state I'm wondering we do have Information on the numbers of students going through school Graduating to the high school level So I'm wondering if there's a way of being able to determine let's say people that 25 25 year olds or older if they in Reflective of the school population if there's a correlation between the people who are here working that age In relation to the people numbers of people that have gone through school I Including post high school in that because people leave the state that there's all sorts of transitions And we're talking about people who Either from high school have gone into the workforce or there's been Alapsed in terms of full-time work For a measure of time and that may very well be to going to some sort of post-secondary schooling Presumably once that schooling is completed or that training or skill building Presumably those people if they're not here while that's happening will return here People are saying no, they're not returning here Not in large enough numbers and therefore we're we're we're feeling that Deficiency and nobody seems to be able to You know and don't leave you know the business community So yeah, unfortunately, we don't have like a wrong digital database to say like oh But these are the cohort of individuals who graduated ten years ago, and where are they now or how many of them are here? We certainly look at could look at populations and say yes in 2005. We graduated 100,000 students and now theoretically they're gonna be 28 now, so we should You know we can see how many 28 year olds we have right we have that again They're gonna be all they're not connected in any way, so they could be totally different populations You know 100% of those 18 year olds go left and the all the 28-year-olds might be from out of state But in that sense we would be well We would be retaining our young people what we would get me gathering young people from other places So I'm talking about the end result. Yeah numbers, right And I think that the last the typically Vermont and I thought that this held up in the last time they looked at Tax data the in and out migration of tax filers that Vermont is still I can get net import or like 30 somethings Yeah, I think I think the idea that there are less youth, I mean that's clear in education numbers That's also region-wide and I graduated from a high school that had 750 people 40 years ago and last year they graduated 450 so That's in a denser more populated in place than Vermont so I didn't the idea that minimum wage is anything to do with in or out migration is is You know, it's not gonna matter one way or another But it doesn't matter. It matters in different ways So Do we have enough or any data that from states or Regions that have gone to 15 dollar minimum wage to suggest how they and what impact on the economy It's Washington some sections in New York State. It's been growing over the last few years I wonder if there's any data that you've collected that would indicate what impact on the economy that Yeah, I have not personally But you know, I was looking over at Joyce me and testers testimony from the other day who she does summarize some of the Outcomes related to some of the more research. I think that you know, the Seattle study I don't want to speak to her testimony because I'm not sure what it was put in but there were some interesting findings that The authors found some evidence of reduced employment in tradeable sectors, so I assume that means like the retail trade will sell trade industries That they that this one said this was the Following employment data of individual working in the state of Washington They follow workers in low-wage jobs immediately before Seattle's minimum wage increase and on net there was an increase of $9.47 to As much as $13 per hour raised in earnings on an average So there were there are ways right from about say ten dollars to thirteen dollars And it was concluded that they raised their earnings by an average of each twelve dollars per week So even though they got a significant increase in their hourly earnings of the overall in the weekly basis They only saw an increase of age twelve dollars in their paycheck And then the entirety of the grain gains accrued to those workers were for above median experience baseline So that the individuals already had skill sets where the ones actually realized it and the people of the less Experienced workers saw no significant change and that goes again to kind of the point that I did get a chance to respond to your question of like is this the right tool because even if you're Theoretically we all agree that if you work a full-time job At a wage rate, you should be able to take care of your own basic needs Will changing the minimum wage actually then lead to that end result or is there need to be some other action because You know, they were third-pointed there was an increased potential That's a significant thing. Yes, and I I I'm interested to see how that plays out because Typically the retention conversation gets wrapped around either the efficient efficiency wage theory but My perspective on the way individuals behave is when you're at the minimum wage You know you're at a minimum wage job and you can find a minimum wage job anywhere. And so the retention I'm interested to see a federal hold off over a business cycle because right now we're talking about the economic outcomes of areas in the country that are Prospering significantly during a period of economic expansion. We've been growing since 2009 We're talking about 10 years of economic growth. What happens during an economic downturn. Will these benefits still manifest? Will they still be realized? So yeah, it's a good question. I just don't I don't know all the literature on this How about do we have any information as to what how that? $9 an hour possibly filters back into the economy are You know our retail the business is doing better our lumber yards doing better and we have any information that would suggest that Well, this is where we roll back up Just have to wear the skunk hat at the picnic because like even going right to the bottom line of Tom That's recent analysis. It shows that the effect of a level of GDP in Vermont is negative. And so to everybody's Like the to a lot of people's thinking those are just unrecognizable How is it that we're going to give all these people a wage? Increase and the overall impact our economy is going to be negative and as a economist, this is for me, it's just like This is all I've done in the last 20 years is think about the economic outcomes of things and this goes back right to The tenants of economics, which is you can either focus on efficiency or equity, but you can tackle both at the same time So you are specifically addressing the equity question at the sacrifice of the efficiency And these are again sometimes thought of as callous terms outside of economic circles But what it is is you're picking winners and losers and some people may be better off But there will without doubt be others that will be worse off And potentially permanently separated from the labor force which as you know Someone who works with the Department of Labor works for our career resource centers That is the biggest question and concern We have is the people that are going to be permanently separated from the labor force because they can't compete in the current labor market at prices being set so You know as a thought exercise, I always think about what happens if minimum wage is completely removed because sometimes that's always the counterpoint to me is are you saying I You don't want any minimum wage, and that's why I'm not saying anything You know, I don't have opinions. I'm just as an exercise We can think through it and I can think of a lot of populations that would get employment opportunities at five dollars an hour You know if you think about people with significant barriers significant skilled efficiencies There are employers that have Roles and responsibilities they would love to take on and like say, you know what I need someone to get rid of All those dandelions. That was my first job getting rid of dandelions in front of a bottle redemption center, right? A lot of that becomes is off-the-table work and maybe some of that off-the-table work becomes on the table work You know but you know there this is where you get into the ugly conversations about voluntary exchange of time But we're getting cast to play into that equation as well Yes as much as skills and abilities, right? Yeah, yeah Representative Hango, I'm not sure I really have a question. I think it's more of an observation that Most of this seems to go back to the education of the individual what skill set they have and I feel really strongly that maybe putting more monetary restrictions and I Don't even know what to call it on a job Rather than putting the money into Educating the individual to have that skill set is maybe not the best way to go about this So I recall there was a program not long ago in Vermont to retain young people Who were skilled in the STEM fields? So those those people post college whether they came from out of state or they were Vermonters They tended to reside here and if they had an education in that background and got a job and stayed in that job for a year Or 18 months or two years. I can't remember what it was. They got a small stipend But I do recall that it was enough to entice certain young people to stay in the state of Vermont I Know there are a number of different Bills and theories about technical education for students and I think that's a really important thing that can speak to our Plumber problem plumber electrician construction worker problem in the state of Vermont So I just would like the committee and anyone from Years witnesses to think about this and maybe just a little bit different different fashion. Thank you So a couple quick More technical things I guess If we wanted to ask you I've been under the impression that we could ask you Well, who are ticked employees besides waiters and it sounds like we can't Sounds like we don't have that kind of data available to us. Is that accurate at least on a statewide basis If you're asking for like research into which occupations typically receive tips I could provide that as a theoretical but as far as which employees in Vermont receive tips I don't know that we have that data. I think we were saying which individuals in Vermont receive tips I don't think we would be able to provide that information But if you're saying but you do other than waiters you break down like that chamber maze and golf caddies And other people can you send us a list of people who who at least based on the Department of Labor the federal Department of Labor Receives tipped wages. I don't know. I mean, you know, I guess I guess It's hard to make policy when you don't have the data to even think about it And so it's a little frustrating to know that we don't have weekly data You know watching this they might be the only state that has weekly breakdowns of Who makes what one went and how hours to they have hours, right? And that's something that is frustrating to hear that we don't and I'm not I'm just saying To know that the to know that the information is desired And yet we can't produce it because our antiquated systems or whatever we've not put our priorities into Is kind of harsh to it's just frustrating to hear because these are all valid arguments and discussions But I end up Going down a dead-end street when there's no data to come back and say, you know to come back and say Well, let's not talk about waiters. Let's talk about other tip-to-tomplies Or cab drivers, oh, are they lift drivers are they not you know, I mean are they So those are the things that we're trying to sort through Not in the well in the bill There is or in the statute, it's not covered in the bill so in the statute there is a list of exemptions from the minimum wage And most of these minimum wage workers that are listed are also not Eligible for a time of half So we might be take if we have time we're going to be taking a broader look at some of these Some of these broader issues, but agricultural workers are not required to be paid for a minimum wage Any individual in domestics employing domestic service a nanny or babysitter perhaps Or garden for that matter Any individual employed by the United States that's military Center lady People actually work for the US government Any individual employed in the activities of a public supported nonprofit organization except laundry employees nurses aides for practical nurses Do we know what that means? Could you do that because we are legal counsel can't answer that either Any individual employed in a bona fide executive administrative or professional capacity Any individual making home deliveries of newspapers or advertising Taxi cab drivers outside sales persons assuming car salesman could be part of that or door-to-door and so you see a fuller brush men or women Students working during all any part of school year and will address with that's addressed in the bill at least in terms of Clarifying what a vacation or non vacation means so If you could find out that information because those are men always and the other thing that stood out in the statute You'd be interested to know I hope it says Here that the commissioner and the commissioners authorized Representatives have full power and authority for all of the following and number five is to Recommend a suitable scale of rates for learners Apprentices and persons with disabilities which may be less than the regular minimum wage rate for experienced workers without disabilities Sorry, can you what is your question? Do we know of it or do? Do we know of it? Do we understand the broadness of that is that ancient language that should be deleted? Is it is it? I mean because this particular piece of information taken to the nth degree would allow you to set a student wage above and beyond or Whatever we put in the statute and you you and whoever's in your seat can say Students know you can do this And I find that very I mean I don't know how old that language is I'm glad you raised it. I mean, I think it's a great question. I don't please don't go back to the office and start We think it's a we think it's related to places like the branch in the school We think I Think the only time I've ever referenced that it's when we changed and increase the apprenticeship So we have we have we have we have actually yeah, but you can show people Which I think is against the law We have Can you just tell us what the It's title 21 of course and it's section 385 But I would I'd be interested in on some Because we're talking about minimum wage people are starting I mean this has been happening now. We've been talking about minimum wage for on and off for several years And so people are starting to see what essentially is a Pandora's box of exceptions and when organizations representatives of nonprofit organizations approach me and say why can nonprofit organizations pay less I want to say oh That's just an old thing. That's not really quite full But it says right there public supported nonprofit that could be Conceivably or arguably just about any place and that goes beyond being paid a salary and being asked to ask and being asked to work 80 hours a week One thing that stood out in some of the testimony you received you were making illusions to first jobs youth But I didn't hear much about the fact that over 50% of the people who receive the minimum wage in a state of modern women And a certain percentage of them are Single bonds or heads of households So when we talk about equity versus efficiency the part of the equity part is The fact that it's not a youth with minimum wage is not a starter wage for a lot of people and so I just How do we look at that in terms of? the broader picture of saying If I'm a single mom and I have just one kid how difficult is it to make you on if I'm lucky enough to get 40 hours a week Yeah, that's a great question and you know, I've seen those statistics. I even brought a couple of them You know that gets circulated because you know context is everything so when they're saying, you know 90% of people who get the minimum wage are not youth, right Well, the worker population for youth is very small. So you're saying that 10% of them and you've actually be like We're talking about this shifting from a percentage to a number and so I actually meant to do that calculation Just in case the conversation came out because I've always been interested to see well actually 10% of minimum wage earners are under 18 But that's basically 90% of everybody who's under 19 is working well then actually that kind of has The other point is is that we know that that data gets reported out at a minimum wage But that might not be actually their earnings because of tips. So To the extent that there are individuals out there, which we know because we work with them all the time The data is with the data is so I understand that it might disproportionately impact women Which is you know one of the biggest I think failings and one of the You know when we talk about the market are the biggest failings that exist out there Which is information. It's lack of information about the opportunities available to you So some of those professions provide actually benefits that can be really realized monetarily Which would be short shifts or off-schedule shifts which can allow an individual to make earnings while you know Childcare is available for someone So other employment opportunities that might be available might not be able to provide the same flexibility so there is a host of things that We to people choosing individual jobs and we want to make sure that the best information make the best decisions about opportunities out there because something that's bugged me the most is that there's There's still concepts of traditional Employment for men and traditional employment for women and the data continues to just be rick in the wall each year after that so we are hoping through You know more career awareness and exposure to opportunities that we're going to start getting more women into coding Which is something that would be able to provide that flexibility and schedule and flexibility in hours Trying to get individuals in those type of opportunities. I think it's ultimately going to benefit everybody and leverage the skills available And not saying that you know you have to do this, but to again So we're going to back to that point I made about minimum wage jobs It is possible that some of the finest restaurants in Burlington are writing down that their employees are earning minimum wage And yet the practical reality is they're making it work from sixty to eighty thousand dollars a year as a way to that the Coventry court Choice Manchester provided this this was 21 point eight percent of the jobs Vermont are minimum wage jobs are considered minimum wage jobs. Is that Do you work with that number as well? Yeah, that looks like the one by twenty twenty four that she's saying by twenty twenty four to impact maybe like twenty percent I think Representative Byron and I were at the initial at the twenty twenty to twenty twenty one numbers Where we're coming up to ten to eleven percent So certainly as it fades all the way up to the fifteen dollars by twenty twenty four in fact more That seems to be based on the wage data that I mentioned which is collected by employers about the occupations I have so that doesn't seem inconsistent with it. It seems alarming You know from a market standpoint because I've had those conversations about you know economists We overly are reliant and trustworthy on the market, but then you know The the counter argument from a contest is like well, what's the alternative right? We have a bunch of individuals make the best decision for themselves and the collective of that is market outcomes and so You know someone's coming in saying no one fit all jobs in the run economy or not being compensated correctly because somebody says so Who is to say and then what are the impacts as it goes forward? Because again you move the cost of labor up that's going to change the cost of services everything from housing to construction to Taxes because I think that's what surprises people the most we talked a lot about tipped employees, right? Those are the opportunities that seem to get held out into ones that will be impacted the most and that's on a percentage basis Yes, you'll see a lot of people that in like Retail service food and beverage services that are on percentage those industries will be impacted the most and ensure numbers Where the concentration of these employees are there's nearly 9,000 people in education there is nearly 7,000 in social assistance There's about 5,000 in administrative support 4,000 in nursing and residential and those are all industries which are For a large part funded either in a whole or in part by local state or federal dollars and those aren't Industries that can pass on Cost changes to their consumers and be competitive in the marketplaces. That's strictly coming to the taxpayers bottom line Again going to what is it going to take to do a basic needs? So just in sheer numbers because the size is much bigger than say how many people are going to be impacted at gas stations There's 4,000 people that could be impacted that work at gas stations. There's 9,000 are going to be impacted in education I mean gas stations can pass on their prices education are going to pass on their prices and forms of their budgets so do you have a link to Types of time and I know you have a length of types of jobs that are in Vermont that you can Can you share that with Ron so that we can I mean, I know we can probably find it on the DLL. Yeah Are you looking for the Analysts calls the full smash all 600 occupations in the state of Vermont or do you want like a subset? Do you want me to cut it by anything? I can I'll provide a couple things for those who like data I'll provide a summary report and then I'll provide our you know our PDF summary summary report Yeah, just I mean because we can go to the tax department and get a list of how many tax payers paid are paid less than a certain amount of money as well and I They'll kind of the puzzle pieces that kind of fit together, but you know, they're just It's just information we Yeah, you won't know if these are individuals working for them part time Even though they will have hourly salary versus annual salary of my federal partners They take it's the program itself derives an hourly number and then multiply that number by 2080 under the assumption that it's full-time work But we know certain occupations about full-time work like roofers. They don't work you around So we don't edit the department of labor. We actually strike out the annual one We do we don't do that 2080 calculation because we Are partners in construction provided a speed back and so that's not helpful Well, I think I've seen on your site that waiter or maybe in the national site that waiters and waitress is average at $15 an hour or something like that and that's not true in many restaurants Today in Vermont. I mean, they may not be in every restaurant, but it's An average of $15 an hour when there are some who are making 50 or 60 or 70 thousand dollars a year Right is is hard to imagine that people are making less than $15 an hour, but that's average That's you have a statistical average that's tough, right? We're looking into a black room and all we have is little keyholes It's trying to get a sense of it and it's in the forefront of my mind because I was just invited and talked to the rule caucus about this topic That you know when I talk about employment growth in the state of Vermont I can say the Vermont economy has grown with a straight face But you look at where the economic growth has occurred has been the Burlington labor market area so Comparing 2007 the last economic peak to current a 12-year period of time Burlington represents something like a hundred and twenty percent of the employment growth in the state of Vermont meaning Everywhere besides the Burlington labor market area has fewer jobs than they did in 2007 and where we didn't again going back to some Equestrian me private sectors reporting. They were doing less hours Households are reporting. I'm not getting as hours many hours as I want and we believe that to be more represented in the rural areas So again a concentration So even that statistic which shows us down is not felt equally by all so your point about restaurants There are restaurants where people are not earning $15 an hour But there are restaurants that can say you know we're gonna start charging $15 per burrito and in Burlington You know their consumers might not blink an eye because of where the economic activity is concentrated right now See how Washington you're probably paying $20 for a burrito. I know somebody was losing San Francisco He makes money hand-biking the burritos people because they will pay for a $25 burrito You know, but that those are costs that can be borne by all the monitors across the state San Francisco I Was curious about wage compression with elevating minimum wages What is that to the people who are in the scale of the target that this bill is trying to achieve? What impacts does that have? Yeah, I know we don't have a lot of data to mine from I don't know The magical honey hole of Washington might have that Yeah, no it's you again kind of teetering the economic theory and the reading of the economic tea leaves of what will happen But wait compression is real thinking by the fast food restaurant where someone is getting an M1 wage as an entry-level employer And their supervisor is making $12 and it's $12 an hour to deal with all that, right? And then if that person gets a raise the supervisor is gonna say well I'm gonna need more than a 5 cent differential. You can't give this person 15 You're gonna be 1505 to deal with the the Hoopla or problems that I had to deal with as a supervisor But I think it goes beyond that even to for small businesses is that this idea that raising the minimum wage raising the floor will Somehow lower income inequality is an overall outcome I think it's also a problem because as a small business owner by raising the wages of your staff If you're legislatively mandated to do so you've changed the risk profile of that person who runs the business and that Therefore a good business owner is not going to take on more risk without more return and therefore they are going to in turn raise their own Income to themselves as a business owner to compensate themselves for the increased risk So everybody's got to move off the line because it's got to be based on skills to the extent otherwise There's going to be You know the potential Erosion of the motivation to continue to learn and grow and get skills My first on the books job was that amp and I still remember the first time I got my raise a Virtue store, and you're just like it was that market single saying I must be doing something right right because the person who's hired Three months before me is still making minimum wage yet somehow I got you know by the grace of God 25 cents more So did you work harder after you got the average? I did Keep yeah, and I kept growing and it was a market single to me even before I knew what I had the same memories Anything further for the department representative much I'm curious when I was growing up, which is many years ago Minimum wage meant And living wage that we call down meant something entirely different Somehow those two things have become conflated in my view from my experience of definitions and I'm wondering when you are all down the statistics If that comes into play Because it seems to me there are two terms that are used interchangeably Mm-hmm. They have a very distinct different Mm-hmm, and the one that jumps out to me for sorry One thing that jumps out of me about the greatest difference between the two of them is The basic needs budget or a little wage is So dependent on household structure and your individual circumstances on where you live And then who you live with and how many people you live with and how many defendants you have minimum wage is a concept not dependent on how many You know and so that is the biggest defining factor, right? You know what would be constituted a basic needs budget for someone who you know lives with their parents in the basement Because I'm much different, you know, and they're their consumption patterns are much different, too So just one more piece and going back to the When you got a way to raise your own I got a raise One thing we haven't spoken about is increased productivity as a result of a wage increase now you touch on I touch on it I remember distinctly when I got a raise I worked hard and I was more productive So how does that play into this whole set? That's a great question, too, because I look at the behavioral economic research on this as it relates to People and money and people and money and happiness And this is like there's a lot of interesting research and if you never looked into it's fascinating They do like where are they now studies for people who win the lottery and a lot of them are in really bad spots, right? Just terrible spots like they're just living, you know, and of course those are probably one-off anecdotes But you know as one of our greatest attributes as humans is our ability to adapt and so You know, I kind of alluded to it earlier If you're earning the minimum wage, you know, that's the floor and while initially there will be that maybe that retention boost That productivity boost from that it will wear off because humans have a tendency to adapt to the surroundings They're in and they won't take that an individual along you realize wait I'm still a minimum wage and understand that there's still opportunities and people being compensated about the beyond and so, you know the So I always think about it. There's like two camps like there's people benefit from the increase in the minimum wage directly the people would be Directly impacted and negative consequences with people for the increase in minimum wage in each pocket of those camps There's people down the road as we iterate or play this game or simulated over and over again Different people are going to continue to grow those are the skills people have these And they're gonna go continue marching on there's gonna people realize that they got a wage increase and they're just gonna be You know, they won't understand how they got there and they're gonna kind of slip back into those people that are not Employable because they haven't learned the skills necessary to get them that wage and vice versa for the people that are directly impacted Negatively from the impact in which there's gonna be people say I'm on the outside looking in I need to get in there in the game And then that's how what those of the populations were trying to work with to say, you know Those people that say I'm going to work get the skill acquisition, but I think there will be a short run bump in both retention and productivity But I would be it'd be expected, but it would completely level off Within a matter of time because of it's still the minimum wage Of course other ways of Maintaining that productivity increase like increased benefits another Day and a half of the vacation week or another week's vacation year So I mean there's there are ways of carrying that forward other than wage Incentive that can keep that cycle going it seems. Yep. I would agree and that's where some of the challenges of an increase to the wage because employers will have to Their own self-reconcile their own books and employers think about it as total compensation They don't think about it was wages they think about as wages plus benefits plus all the liabilities I'm associated with for the state and federal government and so if you're increasing one size of that pool You're potentially making the other one smaller Those employers and I know there's even employers in this room that know exactly what you're talking about when it comes to If I just give an extra vacation day to my staff, I'm gonna have higher retention rates I'm gonna have higher productivity, but that's an elective a local business does to make themselves more to stand out from their local competition and Understand that they have and they'll get the best that way and that's you know what the efficiency way efficiency wage theory is all about Which ultimately does reduce turnover, which does increase productivity It helps the bottom line because you're paying a follow market rate But if you move the minimum wage to become the market rate Then you still again have to pay about the market rate to realize I'm gonna ask good another abstract question So it's sort of related to the to the This notion of like wage compression in the way that if you bump up the bottom, it's gonna move up these others Yes, and you were talking about Inequality and I guess You also had mentioned earlier something about the disparity of information right yeah, except disparate access to information It's people competitive advantage in the marketplace So let's just say we eliminated all that disparate information. Let's say we got every worker skilled Where's the friction in the market at that point in other words? How does anybody how does anybody profit in the system in which everybody is highly skilled and equally skilled in other words? Is moving the skill base and equivalent to moving the wage base and in which point you create you create a market in which There can't be any friction and differential of information or differential in wage Then the market doesn't function right because nobody has a kind of advantage over anyone else So how do you address inequality in a situation like that outside of say state intervention right with taxation? No, I think the short answer is we started eating other states lunch But again, right at some point I'm just now we're talking the complete abstract right like in order for that Then that's Vermont as a unit economic unit relative to other economic units But at some point if the theory played itself out right this idea this idea that we're gonna empower every work And now every worker is gonna have this massive set of skills Right. Oh, yeah, right because then now we're getting into a whole discussion What's the future of labor and if you know India and China continue to increase their labor force participation rates at the rates they're going, you know, where is the you know, where's the labor market going to go from there, certainly? Yeah, I don't know how that plays out I'm hoping that you know some of the predictions from the 1950s will manifest and that will become a wealthy enough society That people don't have to work as much 40 hours just became the standard for whatever reason because at least it was lower than 80 You know, which is what everyone was working So maybe it should be 30 and so therefore we can start sharing these scarce resources of employment opportunities And actually valuing the the output of the workers so that we understand that that community engagement that civil engagement The social engagements of work are valued as much as the output because I think that ultimately it's a lot of mental health positive mental health outcomes because it removes the isolation it removes the loneliness associated with people who are outside of the current marketplace And Representative Hango and I'm gonna make this the last question here because It's not it's not really a question is just a comment on representative spots theory or abstract question I don't know that really That would play out in that manner because not everybody is going to be highly skilled or still gonna have the opportunity for people with lower-level skills to be working in different industries and then we'll have people with with other more More compensatable So that's my thought I'm your abstract And the occupational data you're related to tips is so find this in the assignment correctly you'd like the number of jobs and the Wage distribution for occupations typically, so to see it with receiving tips And any research you can find on Exceptions are pretty clear. It's just that's Also the question on like what is practical nurse like it seems like there were a few others that were in that Exemption list that we should be looking at as well. Well, just that particular exemption. We don't know what it was for But it's implying or at least it's arguable that any nonprofit That's supported publicly or by the public. It's public supported not publicly supported. Yeah, I mean I have a feeling like I said it has something to do with The waterway state hospital and Brandon training center or someplace like that but Obviously words matter and the other part of it I think is if you can find out anything more about the age of the language about Being able to determine that people with disabilities can get paid less or trainees or learners or apprentices whatever the You know whatever is in there? Because that seems like it's old language Thank you I I Started taking testimony in S23 due to our disparate While I'm considering this a Bill introduction from the Senate and this is Senate's point of view on on how you how you approach them that you work on this bill We have taken testimony from Damian on the walk through We were just talked to we talked to Joyce Manchester a little bit. We've also talked to the commissioner so but we are very happy to reset and Hear your presentation on the bill and what and how you how the Senate worked on it and and how you came down Where you came down? Okay, thank you very much So this was a you know in some ways hit the replay button for us We didn't see overall much reason to change the bill $15 is whether to go out Six years From what we're starting now as we did the last time or go to five thinking that and was our opinion that the We thought we're right when we did it. We didn't think the people should pay the price for the delay so The difference between last year's bill and this year's bill on minimum wage is a small Slightly larger Delta Between each year to get to $15 Well, we had similar problems as we did in terms of resolving issues around training wages and weight staff temple ages and we effectively Push that off to a study committee They are complicated issues and We felt like we didn't want those two The complications of those issues and the controversies around those issues We didn't want to drag down the main focus and we're starting to Getting their backs up on those issues and not even paying attention to the to the basic issue We had the benefit course issue Which is the sort of remaining issue of the bill which if you recall in In 2017 the legislature passed a study committee Which your chair and I were co-chair chair to study the minimum wage and I'm sure you have that report will get it That's sort of a viable because we've touched upon virtually every issue you can think on and that's summer study Then there's a recommendation from that summer study I think we basically implemented that recommendation in 2018 which led to the veto on the name of the study was the minimum wage and benefit cliff study It wasn't just the minimum wage study So we had to address this issue of what does raising minimum wage to to low-income people's benefits? and I would say just as a rule of thumb and it's not exact but JFOs sort of told us that you can figure for every dollar you give somebody who's at minimum wage To go up in their minimum wage They would lose 50 cents in benefits if you didn't include child care We did take testimony in public hearings and we asked the pointed question to a lot of people coming for us Does it bother you that you're gonna lose 50 cents in benefits versus the dollar again and everyone said I wouldn't care for us a dollar. I'd rather work and earn that money That take over because this I want control of my own budget So in certain instances of a minimum wage work was also on childcare benefits There was a cliff in that program whereby they would lose Combined with the 50 cents I talked about they would lose over a dollar. They would be going backwards so we decided to put in language in our bill last year and this year that Said we don't know how it works here But basically every dollar we put in our bills gets stripped out by the appropriations committee So they can wait till the end and balance the request we make Against all the other requests, but we had a request in there. That's that subject to Appropriations we want you to adjust the eligibility level. So people don't fall off and also Adjust the benefit level so people maintain their benefits the status quo of benefits of childcare I can't remember what the dollar figure was. It Deb Brighton was the one that crunched on all these numbers And it's actually her idea she designed this whole thing. It's got a lot of colorful charts And we did that again this year. I think it's less of a problem I I understand the house of a lot of money into childcare I said we will as well. So maybe that even though we have that provision in there Maybe it's already taken care of by this infusion of funds into chapter I'll stop there Okay, we did hear from Deb Brighton and saw someone for colorful charts very much a truncated version And part of that was because we didn't have a company we were just building our contacts for the whole bill No, I appreciate I appreciate you fill us in. No, we're not allowed to put dollar figures into our bills It's purely found upon But at any rate that but when we do have bills that require Some expenditures by the state They're clearly going to take a visit next door and spend quality time We put a dollar figure in but we said subject to appropriations They should change the program in the ways I described Which equates to a dollar figure and one thing I didn't describe is we also Said that they had to raise the Reimbursements to the child care facilities to make up for the fact that some of their workers So talk a little bit about the tips portion of it you there was in language in there that did last that did survive from last year about Owners of restaurants Can't take tips from that the tips belong to the tip to employees We left that in I'm not a hundred percent sure according to Damien that it's as Necessary because I think it was a reaction we found the house is leaving us because of the timing of the feds Change and they're not going to turn back. So we put it in and we left it in but Not sure it does any kind of good And you created a study committee which Your version would study the youth wage Question because you did not do last year's version had a Whatever the minute whatever the adult minimum wage was less three dollars became the youth wage Which kind of matches almost matches what exists today if someone wanted to pay the youth Which also clean up the language about vacations about when when they could be paid a lesser wage asked for study the languages I recall in the law it gets kind of confusing the old line which said And very few people I think are aware of it said that Somebody on vacation from school Would be subject to the federal minimum wage, but not the state And there were questions of what does school me does it mean higher ed was it just the high school And what does vacation and So we came down with was essentially we made it clear that what the Interpretation that had been given by the Department of Labor Was an interpretation of apparently very few people asked about it in practice That we codified their interpretation was that it only applied to vacations to school year not to summer And that It did not apply to higher ed I Testimony on that last year. We found very very very little information very few people would either admit to paying someone less than Or basically said it's not there's no market, you know, there's no You know shut I mean if someone can work and get paid minimum wage chores Why would they work at Joe's market for $3 an hour less is what? You know as you probably start to hear a lot of people aren't really familiar with all the exceptions Right in the minimum wage, and I think a lot of retail stores don't even know that they could pay a lesser wage And then the other portion of the study was on the tip of the wage in the Figuring out not only the tip of the wage, but also the inflationary like how should we approach the minimum wage? From an inflation perspective But I think we left as a default 50% That is left as is If you're talking about the inflation factor going forward after $15, I think it's still at CPI But it's part of the study. Yeah, so the study could suggest something before that time something different Yeah, measurements, you know, some states in California Have been silent on theirs. They don't even say what happens after that. Yeah Did you receive any testimony on the so on the CCF a CCF AP? issue the childcare issue Did you receive any similar testimony from any of the other organizations that rely on federal or state funds? Are a captive of certain level that are wary of paying people more or that would be put into You know like the home health care or anybody else did any did you get testimony from them? Yeah, from the home health agencies in some nursing homes said, you know, we're really significantly at the mercy of the state we have recently and This is going to be hard on us. We didn't feel that I mean, I guess we Didn't feel that it was going to be hard on them for the next couple they could do it for the next couple of years In two more years from now if there's no adjustments to some of their wages By the way, and I was totally shocked by their turnover rates 40% Yeah, don't you get something back if you pay people a little bit more in terms of the lesser turnover rates We received testimony on the pay family leave that there was an organization commercial organization that spent 1.2 High turnover Okay And can you tell me why you felt or your committee felt that Home health agencies and nursing homes could sustain two years of increases because Where they were starting their people now Was at least like a real couple stepped-up basis is very quickly They started one thing and 30 cents more. I mean 30 days later. They go to another 60 days And they were paying there was a differential that they're paying now to the existing Similar to that Could a study be done with them as well It just seems when I look at it like I want to understand why farm workers and others Why they've been exempted historically They now is that just so old under statute that we need to revisit it or Why why did the committee decide not to? Take a look at the And I actually don't think I mean they may have been a lobbyist somewhere About that but nobody Raised the issue. It's not that we didn't say no I probably would have said no because You know, it's just this is controversial enough as it is and it affects, you know You know probably 95 percent or more people Most people are going to be affected by raising the minimum wage I'm not saying it shouldn't be looked at again. You didn't hear a testimony on it. It could be the subject of another bill Certainly, if you guys want to look at it, we'll look at it if you said something to us, but I'm sorry, I might have misunderstood what you just said, but you didn't take any testimony on farm wages for this Relation to this bill. Thank you Anything that sheds my recollection right now remember somebody talking to me about an asking me There's a whole, you know, there's a whole Question of some of the language in in the bill I mean traditionally we've approached the wage portion of it and not really paid any attention to The rest of the bill and the rest of the bill I think more people are starting to focus on The farm workers or the taxicab or the new boys You know, and and the fact that there's wage orders in here wage board, which doesn't exist anymore It's one of those things where it's The other elements of the statute are seeping into a conversation that have to be dealt with perhaps at some point But I think the I mean I think the key portion of the bill so far is the rate change Which you just said you just you just kept the same date as last year and just shrunk What did you say? What was the phrase you use it? Increases the delta the delta right and then And then the tip for so there's elements of this that are pretty solid. I think and it's just very similar Yeah, which if you look at us Tommy and I were the only ones on the Here that I couldn't just assume Yeah, and that's something that's that's of course the world that we live in general I read a lot that a lot of things change, you know, and the makeup of the committee so I Can't say that this committee was so gun-ho on it last year that it matters this year You know, we have to learn we have to go through the same process that But the biggest change I'd say was just Students into the study Yeah, well, thank you for getting us started on this bill We will reset and next week we're gonna have like many of the same witnesses that you brought in and Thank you